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June 15

Category:Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine

Category:Academicians of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 15:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. A merge is not needed because the subcategory is also in an alternative way part of the parent categories. Marcocapelle ( talk) 20:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
As of right now, it still contains only the one subcategory so it doesn't currently aid navigation. Updated my iVote to be clearer that I'm willing to reconsider if/when more content appears. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 08:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
There are 2 but I'm not sure how this pairing helps navigation versus just putting them both in the parent category, Category:National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 15:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Welsh manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, following the split-off of Category:Latin manuscripts about Wales and the better distinction between written in Welsh, allegedly produced in Wales, containing information about Wales, and being preserved in a collection located in Wales. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:English manuscripts and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:Scottish manuscripts. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 18:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Scottish manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, WP:C2C following recent renamings of siblings by language or topic. Category:Scottish Gaelic manuscripts and Category:Manuscripts about Scotland have been split off as separate categories, the "by period"-based Category:Medieval documents of Scotland and the "by collection"-based Category:Manuscripts in the National Library of Scotland and Category:University of Glasgow Library collection have been removed as children, but links to them have been added to aid navigation. Once this category is renamed, the WP:CROSSCAT issues it had when I found it will be resolved. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:English manuscripts nominated earlier today. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Academicians of Ukraine

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: please clarify at category's header what is the difference Estopedist1 ( talk) 15:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Executive power in Ukraine

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:Executive power in Ukraine

Category:Philip Seymour Hoffman

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 15:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Far too little content for an eponymous category and all well interlinked. Why was this even made in the first place? ― Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 13:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:English manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, WP:C2C language-based children, the linked Commonscat c:Category:English-language manuscripts, and following recent renamings of siblings by language or topic. Category:Latin manuscripts about England has been split off as a separate category. We could create a subcategory called Category:English-language poetry manuscripts once the renaming is completed. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 13:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Update Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:Scottish manuscripts has also been CfR'd for renaming to make it language-based. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Rename per nom. Marcocapelle ( talk) 17:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support. Categories should be unambiguous and A LOT of categories using ambiguous terms like 'English' and 'French' should be moved. But while I'm here... "Latin manuscripts about England" is an awful category name. Manuscripts, as physical objects, cannot generally be said to be "about" anything. Srnec ( talk) 20:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Srnec I'll grant you that it's not ideal. But just like we can say something about the language of the contents of the manuscript, we can say something about the topic of the manuscript, can't we? Just like we've got Category:Chronicles by topic, and manuscripts can contain one or multiple chronicles, the texts contained in manuscripts can be about something, can't they?
    I've created these Chronicles/Manuscripts about Fooland as a logical extension of existing trees such as Category:History books about England, Category:Works about England etc. I'm not making something up, but building on existing practices. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 21:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    PS: I'm currently preparing the diffusion of Category:Irish manuscripts. It requires a lot of reading and thinking. So far I'm thinking about the following reorganisation:
    • 2+ Irish Gaelic manuscripts (parent)
    • 0+ Manuscripts about Ireland (parent)
      • 25+ Irish Gaelic manuscripts about Ireland (subtopics: miscellany, genealogy (1 dynastic propaganda), history, military history, poetry, religion, mythology, topography, law, rural life)
      • 2+ English-language manuscripts about Ireland (history, law)
      • 7+ Latin manuscripts about Ireland (genealogy, poetry, history)
    • 10+ (working title) Latin manuscripts of Irish origin (mostly Vetus Latina or Latin Vulgate biblical manuscripts incl. psalters, hagiographic (mostly Saint Patrick), or liturgic; not really "about Ireland", but probably produced in Ireland, although I doubt this is a DEFINING element).
    In each case, it matters what 'Irish' means. Written in Irish Gaelic? Written in Ireland? Written about Ireland? Kept in a collection located in Ireland? When it's a Vulgate Latin fragment of the New Testament kept in the British Library in London, there is little 'Irish' about it, for instance. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 22:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I would say "produced in" is more defining of a manuscript than what it's "about". A manuscript is a physical object. Where and when it was made are among its most defining elements. What texts are in it is also defining, but it seems to me much harder to categorize manuscripts by the topics of the texts they contain. Such categorization belongs properly to the texts themselves.
    Texts can be about things, but manuscripts (except in the limit) can't be, I'd say. For example, a manuscript that contains one work may be described as about whatever the work is about, but a manuscript that contains several different works? And if "England" is a thing a manuscript can be about, how is a manuscript containing works about the history of England, Aristotelian philosophy, the end times and hagiography to be classified? "About England" would hardly seem defining.
    The difference with language is that a manuscript, basically by definition, contains writing, which encodes a language. So a manuscript can always be defined by language. Of course, a manuscript may be written in more than one language. But we could easily categorize a polyglot manuscript by multiple languages. There are only so many languages. But topics? It is one thing to categorise a text by topic, but how would that work with manuscripts containing multiple texts? And why would "England" constitute a topic at all?
    Look at this MS record: text it contains, date of production, author, scribe, illustrator, original owner, place of production, language, size. Or this one: where it is now, when it was made, where it was made. Scroll past the thumbnails and you get a list of contents, then the scribe and the chain of custody. I would look at how manuscripts are actually catalogued to determine what their defining features are. Srnec ( talk) 00:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Srnec You make some good points, and I partially agree with you. The current categorisations of manuscripts are:
    The compilation of chronicle entries known as the Povest' vremennykh let (PVL) is a fundamental source for the historical study of the vast eastern European and Eurasian lands that now include major parts of Ukraine and Belarus, as well as extensive parts of the Russian Federation and Poland.
    The relative importance of Ukraine and Belarus is much greater than that of Poland and Russia, but do the latter two still deserve to be categorised? We need to cap it off at some point, surely. And I think it would be fair to say that if none of the topics pass the threshold of 25%, we can call it a "miscellany". A manuscript/chronicle like that has no clear focus, no dominant/prominent topic/theme, it's just a miscellaneous collection of writings.
    Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 05:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Category:Miscellanies is actually a category. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 11:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    How do we know where... If we don't, we can't put it in a category. Just like if we don't know where someone is born we can't put them in a "people from X" category.
    "Works contained" is a sensible categorization. "Authors contained" is also sensible. I think there is some talking past each other here, because I agree that "medical manuscripts" is a valid category and you could call it topical. But I would not say a medical manuscript is "about medicine" anymore than I would say a drugstore is a "store about medicine". A manuscript is medical because it contains works about medicine. And I would not agree that "Scotland" is a topic at all. The geographical remit of the works contained in a manuscript is an odd basis for categorization.
    I am very sensitive to our use of the word 'manuscript' because it is clearly very poorly understood. Just yesterday, I found the Irish Astronomical Tract described as a manuscript, although the article itself showed clearly that it is found in four manuscripts. Srnec ( talk) 23:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    How do we know where... If we don't, we can't put it in a category. Exactly my main point why I think "country of production" is WP:NONDEFINING, because we very often do not know, and are left to speculate.
    I understand that you regard manuscripts as no more than a container of things. But I'm left wondering why you think we can categorise it by language: a manuscript, basically by definition, contains writing, which encodes a language. So a manuscript can always be defined by language.
    To complete the analogy: can we say a Latin manuscript is "in Latin" just like you would say a book shop selling Latin books is a "shop in Latin"? I don't think so; the books in the shop are in Latin, but saying the shop itself is in Latin doesn't really make sense, does it? Just like the "store about medicine" is an odd thing to say.
    So either we cannot categorise manuscripts by neither topic nor language, or the analogy doesn't really work, and both are actually fine ways of categorisation. I don't see why language is okay, but not topic. I think it would be reasonable to assert that a manuscript, basically by definition, contains writing, which conveys information about a topic. So a manuscript can always be defined by topic. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 21:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Because every manuscript has a language or a very limited number of languages. And the language is encoded in physical signs. We might even be able to identify it without being able to read it. But a manuscript has as many topics as we like. And we can only identify them after we've read the text. Defining the "topic" of a work is somewhat arbitrary, as the very fact of the choice of topics like "England" shows. Take the Courtenay Compendium. It is 100% Latin. And you don't even need to be able to read Latin well enough to understand the texts to see this. But what of its topics? It is about Troy, the Matter of Britain, the Anglo-Saxon settlement, Queen Emma, China, the Mongols, the Crusades, Muhammad and prophecy. Or we could say English history, the Orient and Islam. Or taking its sections, we could say that two thirds are about the Isles, two thirds are about religion and two thirds are about history. It would be better to classify manuscripts by works or types of works contained. For example, "manuscripts containing prophecies" or "manuscripts of Dares Phrygius".
    I am saying that topic is WP:NONDEFINING of a manuscript because it is downstream of the works that it contains, whereas language is not. Srnec ( talk) 05:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I've got to admit that that argument makes some sense, and is quite reasonable. May I ask how you feel about the Category:Works by topic tree in general? Is this a larger problem, or is 'topic' just not something we can apply very well to manuscripts in particular? Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 14:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Perhaps it might help to ask an extra question: Is it easier to define Category:Works by genre than by topic? We might agree that a certain work is a 'chronicle', but the topics which the chronicle has anything to say about could be in the hundreds. I suggested a cap of about 25% that of the text that needs to be about a single topic, but now that I think about it, that's also somewhat arbitrary. And I guess that could land us Wikipedians into WP:OR territory sooner or later by interpreting contents in terms of percentages by topic. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 14:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I was wondering, suppose "topic" would WP:NONDEFINING for manuscripts, what about Category:Manuscripts by religion such as Category:Christian manuscripts? Should they be deleted? Or can we justify that category for different reasons? Because I wanted to make it a branch of Category:Manuscripts by topic, but maybe that's a bad idea? Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 15:39, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I think we can apply topic to works just fine, but I'm not so confident in the category tree. I just did a random click through and found that The Kite Runner belongs in Category:Works about regions, specifically, it is "about Islamabad". I've never read it, but a glance at the article does not support this assertion. It never even mentions Islamabad.
    I also think there are pretty unambiguous cases of religious manuscripts. A manuscript of the Quran is an Islamic manuscript. A manuscript of a lectionary is a Christian manuscript. And so on. But there are harder cases. Is a manuscript that contains histories of the crusades from a Christain point of view a "Christian manuscript"? Is it the purpose of the MS that determines its religion or its contents? Or its original owners? A MS of the Vulgate Pentateuch is obviously Christian in one sense, although the works it contains are just as much Jewish. Srnec ( talk) 23:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Well said. I can only agree with all of that.
    As far as I'm aware, a "Christian" writing must not only have a "Christian" perspective (because then over 90% (random guess) of pre-1900 European literature is "Christian"). It must serve to advance a Christian cause, including proselytising the religion itself.
    For instance, if a chronicler writes about the crusaders capturing some town in the Levant, saying they "liberated it from the evil heretic Saracens", that's a Christian perspective, but not really promoting a Christian cause. The author might still be more interested in chivalry than holy war, for example. But if the author goes on with a lengthy exegesis of how the Bible already foretold this would happen, and this vindicates Christian theological tenets A, B, and C, then I think we can reasonably classify it as a "Christian" work. Or: a "Christian manuscript". Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 01:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: Would this style work for all the subcategories of Category:Manuscripts by language? "Latin-language manuscripts", "Scottish Gaelic–language manuscripts", "Church Slavonic–language manuscripts", "Middle High German–language manuscripts": I have a suspicion that those ones aren't idiomatic. Wouldn't "Manuscripts in English", "Manuscripts in Latin", etc., across the board be better? (With the exception, I think, of Aztec codices; I don't know what to do about about that one.) Ham II ( talk) 06:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    This nomination builds on existing practice ( WP:C2B) of Category:Works by language, whereby any name for a language that can also refer to a country, nationality or ethnicity requires the addition -language (e.g. Category:English-language books), and any name for a language that can only refer to that language does not (e.g. Category:Latin books). The equivalent word for country, nationality or ethnicity is "Roman", so "Latin" has the advantage of being unambiguous, and never needing Category:Latin-language books. Same goes for Scottish Gaelic, Church Slavonic, Middle High German.
    I would actually not be opposed to renaming all categories to Manuscripts in Fooese. But this could set off a chain reaction resulting in renaming the entire Category:Works by language tree to Bars in Fooese. We better be sure about this, that this is a significant and compelling improvement that is worth renaming the whole tree if necessary. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 06:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Rename Either as nominated or per Ham II alternate name. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 01:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Pingat Bakti Setia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: listify. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:OCAWARD, WP:ARBITRARYCAT, & WP:NONDEFINING
The Pingat Bakti Setia (English: Long Service Award) is an award from Singapore that is automatically given to teachers and other government employees that have completed 25 years of service. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 12:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
@ Nederlandse Leeuw: Since I already created the list they're effectively the same: this category would go away. But conceptually, I don't favor deleting award cats without first making sure that same info is in a main article (unless there are just too many recipients to possibly list, like with the Purple Heart nom on this page). - RevelationDirect ( talk) 00:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
@ RevelationDirect Ah, I missed your "right here" link. Then yes, Listify per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 04:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Knights of the Order of Merit of Savoy

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:OCAWARD & WP:NONDEFINING
We don't have a main article on the Order of Merit of Savoy but there is a redirect that points to the Order of the Crown of Italy, a related award. There are only 2 articles in this category and they are Cardinal Giovanni Cheli (whose article makes no mention of the award) and New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Neither seem defined by an award from a former royal family. The category contents are listified right here for any reader interested in this topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 12:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Religion in Western Europe by country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to the "Category:Northwestern European countries" CfD, see also precedents "Category:Northern European people" and "Category:Western European people". WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:OR, WP:OVERLAPCAT. Long story short (already confirmed by precedents): there is no consensus on how Europe should be divided in "North, East, South, West, Central" etc. There has never been a good reason for the decision made by 1 single editor on 6 July 2021‎ to empty and further diffuse/split Category:Religion in Europe by country into a set of religion-by-arbitrarily-defined-regions-of-Europe categories, and this move should be reverted. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
PS: I found out shortly after submitting this CfM that there were separate trees for Buddhism, Christianity, and Jews and Judaism, which I have now added to the nomination. Especially Category:Jews and Judaism in Western Europe is WEIRD; it has a long-arse category description which is presented as if it's an article, entirely dedicated to defining "Western Europe". As if readers are looking for, or care about, the definition of Western Europe when they want to know about Jews and Judaism in that general area. The fact that the category creator felt like it was a good idea, or even necessary, to "add info" like this, only confirms just how arbitrary it is to divide Europe into regions for categorisation purposes, and that we should do no such thing if a continental category already exists and suffices for the same job. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Western European music

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to the "Category:Northwestern European countries" CfD, see also precedents "Category:Northern European people" and "Category:Western European people". WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:OR, WP:OVERLAPCAT. Long story short (already confirmed by precedents): there is no consensus on how Europe should be divided in "North, East, South, West, Central", let alone "Southeastern" etc. Most items are already in Category:European music by country anyway, so this set of music-by-arbitrarily-defined-regions-of-Europe categories is entirely redundant. But just in case we've missed one, I'm proposing a Merger rather than a Deletion. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 09:47, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hard science fiction

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:Hard science fiction

Disestablishment of Dutch Mauritius

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge/delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: This structure only contains the main article Dutch Mauritius.  – Fayenatic London 08:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Northwestern European culture

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge/delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 0 P, 2 C. "Category:Surnames of Northwestern European origin" has already been decided to be Upmerged to Category:Surnames of European origin, making this a redundant layer. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 07:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Archaeology of Northwestern Europe

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: manually merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
or to Category:Archaeology of Europe by region (when outside the scope of Archaeology of Northern Europe)
Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:CROSSCAT WP:OVERLAPCAT. Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 7#Category:Northwestern European countries (deleted) and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 7#Category:Surnames of Northwestern European origin (upmerged). Unlike parent Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe, which at least has a main article called Archaeology of Northern Europe (stated scope: Scandinavian Peninsula/Scandinavia and the adjacent North European Plain, roughly corresponding to the territories of modern Sweden, Norway, Denmark, northern Germany, Poland and the Netherlands), "Archaeology of Northwestern Europe" is an arbitrary scope based on nothing inside Wikipedia (as the precedents have shown). It also partially overlaps with Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe and Category:Archaeology of Western Europe.
I am considering whether to Upmerge
Category:Archaeology of Central Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Eastern Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Southeastern Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Southern Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Southwestern Europe, and
Category:Archaeology of Western Europe
to Category:Archaeology of Europe by region as well, because apart from "Northern Europe", these are all arguably WP:ARBITRARYCATs. But let's start with this one first. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 06:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American football teams in Europe by country

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:American football teams in Europe by country

Category:Archaeological sites in Europe by region

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Redundant layer. 1 C, 0 P. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 06:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Transhumanists

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle ( talk) 05:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fraser Island

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Keep ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale:: Both the geographical feature and locality were officially renamed K'gari on 7 June 2023. "Fraser Island" is officially dropped and there is no longer a dual name. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] 203.8.131.32 ( talk) 05:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Pending RM.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 05:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1st-century rulers in Africa

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: alt merge to Xth-century African people parents. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 1 C 0 P. See also precedents Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:1st-century rulers in Europe, and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 26#Ancient rulers by century and continent. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 18:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Alt proposal: instead of downmerging from Xth-century rulers in Africa to Xth-century monarchs in Africa, we Upmerge all these Xth-century rulers in Africa to their Xth-century African people parents.
Alt rationale: per Fayenatic: There is never any harm in (up)merging to a category that is already a parent; that has the same effect as deleting, except that the text in the deletion log entry will say that the category was merged rather than deleted. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 21:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge C1-C3 per nom. In fact I sympthatize with the whole nomination, but the second half of the nomination would leave a strange gap in the rulers in Africa tree between the 12th and 16th century. Marcocapelle ( talk) 21:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 05:24, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

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Category:Recipients of the Presidential Unit Citation (United States)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD
The award is not defining and is retroactively awarded to individuals who served in the military units rather than individually being awarded. Toadboy123 ( talk) 02:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle ( talk) 04:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete This is definitely not defining to individual soldiers who never actually won the award. The miltiary unit articles are a closer call but, clicking through them, the award is normally mentioned after whatever engagement they won the citation for, rather than being defining for the whole history of the unit. The main article has the most detailed list of recipients I've ever seen right here for anyone interested in this topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 12:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Recipients of the Purple Heart

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD
There is already a category on Category:American military personnel killed in action and having a category on Purple Heart contributes to the unnecessary clutter of categories in articles. Toadboy123 ( talk) 02:47, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
I'm not seeing it treated that way in the articles though. Even for Bob Dole (who is known largely for being a disabled veteran) you have to go way down in the article before it's even mentioned. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 10:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
Why should there be categories for recipients of other nations awards and not the American Purle Heart? For example there is "Category:Recipients of the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland", 4th class" and many other such categories for Russian awards. Shari Garland ( talk) 13:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
There's a lot of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS with awards generally but not in this case: none of the other articles under Category:Wound decorations have a recipient subcategory. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 15:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Ohio townships

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: There is no need for this category, there are no subcats in it and articles can just use the county subcategories in Category:Wikipedia Requested photographs in Ohio FatalFit |  ✉ |  ✓  01:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_June_15&oldid=1163339325"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< June 14
June 16 >

June 15

Category:Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine

Category:Academicians of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 15:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. A merge is not needed because the subcategory is also in an alternative way part of the parent categories. Marcocapelle ( talk) 20:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
As of right now, it still contains only the one subcategory so it doesn't currently aid navigation. Updated my iVote to be clearer that I'm willing to reconsider if/when more content appears. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 08:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
There are 2 but I'm not sure how this pairing helps navigation versus just putting them both in the parent category, Category:National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 15:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Welsh manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, following the split-off of Category:Latin manuscripts about Wales and the better distinction between written in Welsh, allegedly produced in Wales, containing information about Wales, and being preserved in a collection located in Wales. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:English manuscripts and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:Scottish manuscripts. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 18:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Scottish manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, WP:C2C following recent renamings of siblings by language or topic. Category:Scottish Gaelic manuscripts and Category:Manuscripts about Scotland have been split off as separate categories, the "by period"-based Category:Medieval documents of Scotland and the "by collection"-based Category:Manuscripts in the National Library of Scotland and Category:University of Glasgow Library collection have been removed as children, but links to them have been added to aid navigation. Once this category is renamed, the WP:CROSSCAT issues it had when I found it will be resolved. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:English manuscripts nominated earlier today. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Academicians of Ukraine

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: please clarify at category's header what is the difference Estopedist1 ( talk) 15:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Executive power in Ukraine

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:Executive power in Ukraine

Category:Philip Seymour Hoffman

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 15:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Far too little content for an eponymous category and all well interlinked. Why was this even made in the first place? ― Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 13:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:English manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC, WP:C2C language-based children, the linked Commonscat c:Category:English-language manuscripts, and following recent renamings of siblings by language or topic. Category:Latin manuscripts about England has been split off as a separate category. We could create a subcategory called Category:English-language poetry manuscripts once the renaming is completed. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 13:14, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Update Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 15#Category:Scottish manuscripts has also been CfR'd for renaming to make it language-based. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 16:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Rename per nom. Marcocapelle ( talk) 17:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Support. Categories should be unambiguous and A LOT of categories using ambiguous terms like 'English' and 'French' should be moved. But while I'm here... "Latin manuscripts about England" is an awful category name. Manuscripts, as physical objects, cannot generally be said to be "about" anything. Srnec ( talk) 20:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Srnec I'll grant you that it's not ideal. But just like we can say something about the language of the contents of the manuscript, we can say something about the topic of the manuscript, can't we? Just like we've got Category:Chronicles by topic, and manuscripts can contain one or multiple chronicles, the texts contained in manuscripts can be about something, can't they?
    I've created these Chronicles/Manuscripts about Fooland as a logical extension of existing trees such as Category:History books about England, Category:Works about England etc. I'm not making something up, but building on existing practices. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 21:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    PS: I'm currently preparing the diffusion of Category:Irish manuscripts. It requires a lot of reading and thinking. So far I'm thinking about the following reorganisation:
    • 2+ Irish Gaelic manuscripts (parent)
    • 0+ Manuscripts about Ireland (parent)
      • 25+ Irish Gaelic manuscripts about Ireland (subtopics: miscellany, genealogy (1 dynastic propaganda), history, military history, poetry, religion, mythology, topography, law, rural life)
      • 2+ English-language manuscripts about Ireland (history, law)
      • 7+ Latin manuscripts about Ireland (genealogy, poetry, history)
    • 10+ (working title) Latin manuscripts of Irish origin (mostly Vetus Latina or Latin Vulgate biblical manuscripts incl. psalters, hagiographic (mostly Saint Patrick), or liturgic; not really "about Ireland", but probably produced in Ireland, although I doubt this is a DEFINING element).
    In each case, it matters what 'Irish' means. Written in Irish Gaelic? Written in Ireland? Written about Ireland? Kept in a collection located in Ireland? When it's a Vulgate Latin fragment of the New Testament kept in the British Library in London, there is little 'Irish' about it, for instance. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 22:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I would say "produced in" is more defining of a manuscript than what it's "about". A manuscript is a physical object. Where and when it was made are among its most defining elements. What texts are in it is also defining, but it seems to me much harder to categorize manuscripts by the topics of the texts they contain. Such categorization belongs properly to the texts themselves.
    Texts can be about things, but manuscripts (except in the limit) can't be, I'd say. For example, a manuscript that contains one work may be described as about whatever the work is about, but a manuscript that contains several different works? And if "England" is a thing a manuscript can be about, how is a manuscript containing works about the history of England, Aristotelian philosophy, the end times and hagiography to be classified? "About England" would hardly seem defining.
    The difference with language is that a manuscript, basically by definition, contains writing, which encodes a language. So a manuscript can always be defined by language. Of course, a manuscript may be written in more than one language. But we could easily categorize a polyglot manuscript by multiple languages. There are only so many languages. But topics? It is one thing to categorise a text by topic, but how would that work with manuscripts containing multiple texts? And why would "England" constitute a topic at all?
    Look at this MS record: text it contains, date of production, author, scribe, illustrator, original owner, place of production, language, size. Or this one: where it is now, when it was made, where it was made. Scroll past the thumbnails and you get a list of contents, then the scribe and the chain of custody. I would look at how manuscripts are actually catalogued to determine what their defining features are. Srnec ( talk) 00:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    @ Srnec You make some good points, and I partially agree with you. The current categorisations of manuscripts are:
    The compilation of chronicle entries known as the Povest' vremennykh let (PVL) is a fundamental source for the historical study of the vast eastern European and Eurasian lands that now include major parts of Ukraine and Belarus, as well as extensive parts of the Russian Federation and Poland.
    The relative importance of Ukraine and Belarus is much greater than that of Poland and Russia, but do the latter two still deserve to be categorised? We need to cap it off at some point, surely. And I think it would be fair to say that if none of the topics pass the threshold of 25%, we can call it a "miscellany". A manuscript/chronicle like that has no clear focus, no dominant/prominent topic/theme, it's just a miscellaneous collection of writings.
    Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 05:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Category:Miscellanies is actually a category. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 11:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    How do we know where... If we don't, we can't put it in a category. Just like if we don't know where someone is born we can't put them in a "people from X" category.
    "Works contained" is a sensible categorization. "Authors contained" is also sensible. I think there is some talking past each other here, because I agree that "medical manuscripts" is a valid category and you could call it topical. But I would not say a medical manuscript is "about medicine" anymore than I would say a drugstore is a "store about medicine". A manuscript is medical because it contains works about medicine. And I would not agree that "Scotland" is a topic at all. The geographical remit of the works contained in a manuscript is an odd basis for categorization.
    I am very sensitive to our use of the word 'manuscript' because it is clearly very poorly understood. Just yesterday, I found the Irish Astronomical Tract described as a manuscript, although the article itself showed clearly that it is found in four manuscripts. Srnec ( talk) 23:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    How do we know where... If we don't, we can't put it in a category. Exactly my main point why I think "country of production" is WP:NONDEFINING, because we very often do not know, and are left to speculate.
    I understand that you regard manuscripts as no more than a container of things. But I'm left wondering why you think we can categorise it by language: a manuscript, basically by definition, contains writing, which encodes a language. So a manuscript can always be defined by language.
    To complete the analogy: can we say a Latin manuscript is "in Latin" just like you would say a book shop selling Latin books is a "shop in Latin"? I don't think so; the books in the shop are in Latin, but saying the shop itself is in Latin doesn't really make sense, does it? Just like the "store about medicine" is an odd thing to say.
    So either we cannot categorise manuscripts by neither topic nor language, or the analogy doesn't really work, and both are actually fine ways of categorisation. I don't see why language is okay, but not topic. I think it would be reasonable to assert that a manuscript, basically by definition, contains writing, which conveys information about a topic. So a manuscript can always be defined by topic. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 21:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Because every manuscript has a language or a very limited number of languages. And the language is encoded in physical signs. We might even be able to identify it without being able to read it. But a manuscript has as many topics as we like. And we can only identify them after we've read the text. Defining the "topic" of a work is somewhat arbitrary, as the very fact of the choice of topics like "England" shows. Take the Courtenay Compendium. It is 100% Latin. And you don't even need to be able to read Latin well enough to understand the texts to see this. But what of its topics? It is about Troy, the Matter of Britain, the Anglo-Saxon settlement, Queen Emma, China, the Mongols, the Crusades, Muhammad and prophecy. Or we could say English history, the Orient and Islam. Or taking its sections, we could say that two thirds are about the Isles, two thirds are about religion and two thirds are about history. It would be better to classify manuscripts by works or types of works contained. For example, "manuscripts containing prophecies" or "manuscripts of Dares Phrygius".
    I am saying that topic is WP:NONDEFINING of a manuscript because it is downstream of the works that it contains, whereas language is not. Srnec ( talk) 05:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I've got to admit that that argument makes some sense, and is quite reasonable. May I ask how you feel about the Category:Works by topic tree in general? Is this a larger problem, or is 'topic' just not something we can apply very well to manuscripts in particular? Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 14:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Perhaps it might help to ask an extra question: Is it easier to define Category:Works by genre than by topic? We might agree that a certain work is a 'chronicle', but the topics which the chronicle has anything to say about could be in the hundreds. I suggested a cap of about 25% that of the text that needs to be about a single topic, but now that I think about it, that's also somewhat arbitrary. And I guess that could land us Wikipedians into WP:OR territory sooner or later by interpreting contents in terms of percentages by topic. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 14:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I was wondering, suppose "topic" would WP:NONDEFINING for manuscripts, what about Category:Manuscripts by religion such as Category:Christian manuscripts? Should they be deleted? Or can we justify that category for different reasons? Because I wanted to make it a branch of Category:Manuscripts by topic, but maybe that's a bad idea? Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 15:39, 19 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    I think we can apply topic to works just fine, but I'm not so confident in the category tree. I just did a random click through and found that The Kite Runner belongs in Category:Works about regions, specifically, it is "about Islamabad". I've never read it, but a glance at the article does not support this assertion. It never even mentions Islamabad.
    I also think there are pretty unambiguous cases of religious manuscripts. A manuscript of the Quran is an Islamic manuscript. A manuscript of a lectionary is a Christian manuscript. And so on. But there are harder cases. Is a manuscript that contains histories of the crusades from a Christain point of view a "Christian manuscript"? Is it the purpose of the MS that determines its religion or its contents? Or its original owners? A MS of the Vulgate Pentateuch is obviously Christian in one sense, although the works it contains are just as much Jewish. Srnec ( talk) 23:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    Well said. I can only agree with all of that.
    As far as I'm aware, a "Christian" writing must not only have a "Christian" perspective (because then over 90% (random guess) of pre-1900 European literature is "Christian"). It must serve to advance a Christian cause, including proselytising the religion itself.
    For instance, if a chronicler writes about the crusaders capturing some town in the Levant, saying they "liberated it from the evil heretic Saracens", that's a Christian perspective, but not really promoting a Christian cause. The author might still be more interested in chivalry than holy war, for example. But if the author goes on with a lengthy exegesis of how the Bible already foretold this would happen, and this vindicates Christian theological tenets A, B, and C, then I think we can reasonably classify it as a "Christian" work. Or: a "Christian manuscript". Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 01:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: Would this style work for all the subcategories of Category:Manuscripts by language? "Latin-language manuscripts", "Scottish Gaelic–language manuscripts", "Church Slavonic–language manuscripts", "Middle High German–language manuscripts": I have a suspicion that those ones aren't idiomatic. Wouldn't "Manuscripts in English", "Manuscripts in Latin", etc., across the board be better? (With the exception, I think, of Aztec codices; I don't know what to do about about that one.) Ham II ( talk) 06:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC) reply
    This nomination builds on existing practice ( WP:C2B) of Category:Works by language, whereby any name for a language that can also refer to a country, nationality or ethnicity requires the addition -language (e.g. Category:English-language books), and any name for a language that can only refer to that language does not (e.g. Category:Latin books). The equivalent word for country, nationality or ethnicity is "Roman", so "Latin" has the advantage of being unambiguous, and never needing Category:Latin-language books. Same goes for Scottish Gaelic, Church Slavonic, Middle High German.
    I would actually not be opposed to renaming all categories to Manuscripts in Fooese. But this could set off a chain reaction resulting in renaming the entire Category:Works by language tree to Bars in Fooese. We better be sure about this, that this is a significant and compelling improvement that is worth renaming the whole tree if necessary. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 06:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Rename Either as nominated or per Ham II alternate name. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 01:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Pingat Bakti Setia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: listify. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:OCAWARD, WP:ARBITRARYCAT, & WP:NONDEFINING
The Pingat Bakti Setia (English: Long Service Award) is an award from Singapore that is automatically given to teachers and other government employees that have completed 25 years of service. There wasn't a list so I created one right here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 12:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
@ Nederlandse Leeuw: Since I already created the list they're effectively the same: this category would go away. But conceptually, I don't favor deleting award cats without first making sure that same info is in a main article (unless there are just too many recipients to possibly list, like with the Purple Heart nom on this page). - RevelationDirect ( talk) 00:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
@ RevelationDirect Ah, I missed your "right here" link. Then yes, Listify per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 04:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Knights of the Order of Merit of Savoy

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:OCAWARD & WP:NONDEFINING
We don't have a main article on the Order of Merit of Savoy but there is a redirect that points to the Order of the Crown of Italy, a related award. There are only 2 articles in this category and they are Cardinal Giovanni Cheli (whose article makes no mention of the award) and New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Neither seem defined by an award from a former royal family. The category contents are listified right here for any reader interested in this topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 12:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Religion in Western Europe by country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to the "Category:Northwestern European countries" CfD, see also precedents "Category:Northern European people" and "Category:Western European people". WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:OR, WP:OVERLAPCAT. Long story short (already confirmed by precedents): there is no consensus on how Europe should be divided in "North, East, South, West, Central" etc. There has never been a good reason for the decision made by 1 single editor on 6 July 2021‎ to empty and further diffuse/split Category:Religion in Europe by country into a set of religion-by-arbitrarily-defined-regions-of-Europe categories, and this move should be reverted. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
PS: I found out shortly after submitting this CfM that there were separate trees for Buddhism, Christianity, and Jews and Judaism, which I have now added to the nomination. Especially Category:Jews and Judaism in Western Europe is WEIRD; it has a long-arse category description which is presented as if it's an article, entirely dedicated to defining "Western Europe". As if readers are looking for, or care about, the definition of Western Europe when they want to know about Jews and Judaism in that general area. The fact that the category creator felt like it was a good idea, or even necessary, to "add info" like this, only confirms just how arbitrary it is to divide Europe into regions for categorisation purposes, and that we should do no such thing if a continental category already exists and suffices for the same job. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 10:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Western European music

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to the "Category:Northwestern European countries" CfD, see also precedents "Category:Northern European people" and "Category:Western European people". WP:ARBITRARYCAT, WP:OR, WP:OVERLAPCAT. Long story short (already confirmed by precedents): there is no consensus on how Europe should be divided in "North, East, South, West, Central", let alone "Southeastern" etc. Most items are already in Category:European music by country anyway, so this set of music-by-arbitrarily-defined-regions-of-Europe categories is entirely redundant. But just in case we've missed one, I'm proposing a Merger rather than a Deletion. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 09:47, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
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Category:Hard science fiction

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:Hard science fiction

Disestablishment of Dutch Mauritius

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge/delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: This structure only contains the main article Dutch Mauritius.  – Fayenatic London 08:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Northwestern European culture

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge/delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 0 P, 2 C. "Category:Surnames of Northwestern European origin" has already been decided to be Upmerged to Category:Surnames of European origin, making this a redundant layer. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 07:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Archaeology of Northwestern Europe

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: manually merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
or to Category:Archaeology of Europe by region (when outside the scope of Archaeology of Northern Europe)
Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:CROSSCAT WP:OVERLAPCAT. Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 7#Category:Northwestern European countries (deleted) and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 7#Category:Surnames of Northwestern European origin (upmerged). Unlike parent Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe, which at least has a main article called Archaeology of Northern Europe (stated scope: Scandinavian Peninsula/Scandinavia and the adjacent North European Plain, roughly corresponding to the territories of modern Sweden, Norway, Denmark, northern Germany, Poland and the Netherlands), "Archaeology of Northwestern Europe" is an arbitrary scope based on nothing inside Wikipedia (as the precedents have shown). It also partially overlaps with Category:Archaeology of Northern Europe and Category:Archaeology of Western Europe.
I am considering whether to Upmerge
Category:Archaeology of Central Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Eastern Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Southeastern Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Southern Europe,
Category:Archaeology of Southwestern Europe, and
Category:Archaeology of Western Europe
to Category:Archaeology of Europe by region as well, because apart from "Northern Europe", these are all arguably WP:ARBITRARYCATs. But let's start with this one first. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 06:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American football teams in Europe by country

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 3#Category:American football teams in Europe by country

Category:Archaeological sites in Europe by region

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Redundant layer. 1 C, 0 P. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 06:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Transhumanists

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Marcocapelle ( talk) 05:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fraser Island

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Keep ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale:: Both the geographical feature and locality were officially renamed K'gari on 7 June 2023. "Fraser Island" is officially dropped and there is no longer a dual name. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] 203.8.131.32 ( talk) 05:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Pending RM.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 05:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1st-century rulers in Africa

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: alt merge to Xth-century African people parents. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 1 C 0 P. See also precedents Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:1st-century rulers in Europe, and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 26#Ancient rulers by century and continent. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 18:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Alt proposal: instead of downmerging from Xth-century rulers in Africa to Xth-century monarchs in Africa, we Upmerge all these Xth-century rulers in Africa to their Xth-century African people parents.
Alt rationale: per Fayenatic: There is never any harm in (up)merging to a category that is already a parent; that has the same effect as deleting, except that the text in the deletion log entry will say that the category was merged rather than deleted. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 21:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Merge C1-C3 per nom. In fact I sympthatize with the whole nomination, but the second half of the nomination would leave a strange gap in the rulers in Africa tree between the 12th and 16th century. Marcocapelle ( talk) 21:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE TALK TO ME/ STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 05:24, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Presidential Unit Citation (United States)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD
The award is not defining and is retroactively awarded to individuals who served in the military units rather than individually being awarded. Toadboy123 ( talk) 02:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle ( talk) 04:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
  • Delete This is definitely not defining to individual soldiers who never actually won the award. The miltiary unit articles are a closer call but, clicking through them, the award is normally mentioned after whatever engagement they won the citation for, rather than being defining for the whole history of the unit. The main article has the most detailed list of recipients I've ever seen right here for anyone interested in this topic. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 12:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Recipients of the Purple Heart

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete ( non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 19:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:OCAWARD
There is already a category on Category:American military personnel killed in action and having a category on Purple Heart contributes to the unnecessary clutter of categories in articles. Toadboy123 ( talk) 02:47, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
I'm not seeing it treated that way in the articles though. Even for Bob Dole (who is known largely for being a disabled veteran) you have to go way down in the article before it's even mentioned. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 10:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
Why should there be categories for recipients of other nations awards and not the American Purle Heart? For example there is "Category:Recipients of the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland", 4th class" and many other such categories for Russian awards. Shari Garland ( talk) 13:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
There's a lot of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS with awards generally but not in this case: none of the other articles under Category:Wound decorations have a recipient subcategory. - RevelationDirect ( talk) 15:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Ohio townships

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Nominator's rationale: There is no need for this category, there are no subcats in it and articles can just use the county subcategories in Category:Wikipedia Requested photographs in Ohio FatalFit |  ✉ |  ✓  01:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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