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Rename, 9 months should be enough for a speedy rename. But it may not have been enough for
WP:CFDS.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:3rd-century BC women rulers
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Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, it is silly to have this category parented to a regents category while quite a few articles are about queens regnant. They are quite different.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:4th-century BC women rulers
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Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:26, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, it is silly to have this category parented to a regents category while quite a few articles are about queens regnant. They are quite different.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:9th-century BC women rulers
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Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If I understand correctly, two of the three articles in the 16th century are about regents. In that case this nomination may well be merged with the one above.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
MarcocapelleHatshepsut was both a woman regent and a queen regnant, as her bio shows: Upon the death of her husband and half-brother
Thutmose II, she ruled initially as
regent to her stepson
Thutmose III, who inherited the throne at the age of two. Several years into her regency, Hatshepsut assumed the position of pharaoh and adopted the full
royal titulary, making her a co-ruler alongside Thutmose III. She is both in
Category:Female pharaohs and
Category:Regents of Egypt for this reason.
Ahhotep I and
Ahmose-Nefertari were only women regents, so it makes sense to rename this category from "women rulers" to "women regents", as this is what all three women had in common.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 08:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok. It appears I overlooked that the target for the 16th century is different from the 8th and 9th. But we should make sure that
Hatshepsut also stays in the queens regnant tree, shouldn't we?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support(with caveat as just mentioned), it is silly to have this category parented to a regents category while (at least in the 8th and 9th century) none of the articles are about regents. They are quite different.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Utica Pentups players
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Nominator's rationale: There are three separate categories for players on the same minor league baseball team with the only difference being formatting. They are
Category:Utica Pent Ups players,
Category:Utica Pentups players and
Category:Utica Pent-Ups players. While it is policy to have different categories for the same team when it changes names (e.g.
Category:Washington Commanders players and
Category:Washington Redskins players), the distinction here is so minute that I don't think it justifies having three separate categories. It should also be taken into consideration that this team played in an era when team nicknames were far from official and could be formatted differently within the same newspaper article (if the nickname was used at all). The corresponding article name is
Utica Pent-Ups and that seems the most reasonable target category to me; it seems to be a happy medium between "Pent Ups" with a space and no hyphen and "Pentups" with no space or hyphen.
Dennis C. Abrams (
talk) 18:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
P.S. I'm sorry for creating two separate nominations but Twinkle didn't give me an option to propose merging more than two categories.
Dennis C. Abrams (
talk) 18:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Since this is too granular. We can leave a redirect if appropriate. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Utica Pent Ups players
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Nominator's rationale: There are three separate categories for players on the same minor league baseball team with the only difference being formatting. They are
Category:Utica Pent Ups players,
Category:Utica Pentups players and
Category:Utica Pent-Ups players. While it is policy to have different categories for the same team when it changes names (e.g.
Category:Washington Commanders players and
Category:Washington Redskins players), the distinction here is so minute that I don't think it justifies having three separate categories. It should also be taken into consideration that this team played in an era when team nicknames were far from official and could be formatted differently within the same newspaper article (if the nickname was used at all). The corresponding article name is
Utica Pent-Ups and that seems the most reasonable target category to me; it seems to be a happy medium between "Pent Ups" with a space and no hyphen and "Pentups" with no space or hyphen.
Dennis C. Abrams (
talk) 18:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Since this is too granular. We can leave a redirect if appropriate. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Defence organisations based in Barbados
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Nominator's rationale: "Defence/Defense organisations/organizations" is ambigious name. E.g. we have "Civil defence organisations", but not the case here
Estopedist1 (
talk) 14:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Query What conflict? None of these proposals is the subject of the nomination cited above. A mention of an intention to perform another nomination does not give rise to a conflict. I simply got to the nomination table before anyone else. Plus, lest there be any doubt, I did not create
Category:People from Ireland (1801-1923). Everyone is free to discuss the nomination as proposed on its own merits.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Clearer geographic scope.
Dimadick (
talk) 19:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I do not think this is a conflicting nomination. It is adding a start date to a period that already has an end date. But nevertheless - consistent with the other discussion - I would propose a completely different alternative, namely to upmerge the country subcats and to disperse the four articles. For emigration, the political status of Ireland does not matter a lot.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Re "For emigration, the political status of Ireland does not matter a lot." If that's true then it's also true for Scotland. But
Category:Scottish emigrants had 23 subcats.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 17:17, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle the reason for the break in 1923 is that in December 1922 Ireland was partitioned, so by some views, "Irish" no longer referred unambiguously to the whole island.
However for nearly all other purposes, en.wp categories simply use a
Category:Irish fooers with a subcat for Northern Ireland. So I like your suggestion that we should do the same here. I will make an ALT proposal on that basis.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 20:51, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The only ay in which this nomination serves any purpose is split Irish emigrants before an after the year 1801, which is a thoroughly unhelpful idea. Ireland was a unite political entity before the
Act of Union 1801, and it remained so after the Union. "So the term Irish emigrant" in 1799 means exactly the same as it did in 1802. The only change of scope happened with partition. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 17:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged Not so. n some of those Austrian cases there was a change of geographical scope, which doesn't apply here.
If there wasn't a change of geographical scope, then the Austrian split is a bad idea which should be reversed, not replicated.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 18:59, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
A state changing from the islands of Great Britain and Ireland to just 26 counties is not a change of geographical scope? Interesting view.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 20:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This nom is about is not about 1922; it is about a proposal to add a break point in 1801. That break point is un-needed because "Irish" had exactly the same geographical scope before the 1801 Act of Union as it did afterwards.
"Irish" referred to exactly the same territory in 1799 as it did in 1802.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 20:40, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Apologies. I should have written a state changing from the island of Ireland to the islands of Great Britain and Ireland is not a change of geographical scope? Interesting view.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 21:50, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Still irrelevant. The word "Irish" had exactly the same geographical scope in 1799 as it did in 1802.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 08:14, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
ALT1 based on a suggetion above by
Marcocapelle. For nearly all other purposes, en.wp categories simply use a
Category:Irish fooers with a subcat for
Category:Fooers from Northern Ireland. So we should do the same here. Instead of adding another breakpoint, just remove the existing breakpoint.
Hundreds of biographical category trees use this structure. The "before 1923" subcats in some emigrant categories was created by an American editor who appears to have been unfamiliar with Irish categorisation.
This structure is stable and uncontroversial. If it works for lawyers, medical doctors, scientists, writers and many other occupations, there is no reason why it cannot also work for emigrants -- as it did until these "Emigrants before 1923" subcats were created without discussion.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 21:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support alt1 per above remarks. It has the added benefit of combining some emigrant categories.
Oculi (
talk) 21:35, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I am opting out of this ill-tempered discussion.
Oculi (
talk) 21:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Clarify Let's not go down BHG rabbit holes. Let's keep things calm. It's just putting a pre-date where there is currently just a post date. It was clearly the intent of the category that such a start date existed. The nomination does no more than make the implicit explicit.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 21:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
That sounds like an attempt to de-ligitimise the entire
Category:Emigrants from former countries tree structure. Ireland is a former country of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"; so is the
Kingdom of Great Britain, which is why it has its own category of
Category:Emigrants from the Kingdom of Great Britain. This nom is just a scope clarifiation with a "from" date. If BHG wants a wider nom to de-legitimise an entire tree structure, she should create a new set of noms and quit trying to hijack this nom.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 10:50, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Sigh. No of course it's not any such attempt.
And please withdraw that absurd allegation of a "hijack". Proposing an alternative action is a routine part of XFD discussions, as you should know very well after your many years at CFD ... and your allegation is just another of your disruptive attempts to add acrimony to a CFD debate and to maliciously allege a non-existent motive.
This discussion just about Ireland, and in particular about the very very very very simple fact which you seem resolutely determined to ignore: that "Irish people" has throughout history referred to people from the
island of Ireland, and that the scope of the term "Irish people" was unchanged by the
Act of Union 1801.
If you want to chop up all the biographical categories for Irish people into the subcats for the various states and regimes which have existed on the island of Ireland, then open a
WP:RFC where you can set out your case for why we should divide emigrants, lawyers, clergy, writers, lawyers, nuns, medics, farmer, businesspeople etc in this way. There you can explain why this carve-up would improve
navigation, which is the central purpose of categories.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 12:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Clarity 2 (1) It's my anointed role in Wiki to make BHG sigh. Job done. (2) There is no conflict. (3) This is not a delete or merge nom. (4) The nomination is just putting a pre-date where there is currently just a post date. It was clearly the intent of the category that such a start date existed. The nomination does no more than make the implicit explicit. (5) The existence of the dates in the current title points to the political nature of the current category, not the ethno-cultural nature of of it (it has none). In short, the scope is about states not ethno-cultural blocks. (6) Sister categories like
Category:Emigrants from the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Austrian examples show that this is a valid thing to do. See also
Category:History of Ireland (1801–1923). (7) This is not the place to attempt to de-ligitimise the entire
Category:Emigrants from former countries tree structure. Such an attempt ought to be the subject of an entirely different set of nominations. (8) Brace yourselves for more sighing and possibly worse.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 16:31, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Sigh.
Laurel Lodged continues to ignore the very very very very simple fact that the scope of the term "Irish people" did not change in 1801 ... so there is no need for a split.
Th rest of LL's comment is irrelevant hot air maliciously false allegations, and is explicit about their desire to troll me.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 16:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The latter is an unfair assessment, imho. LL tries to keep some humour in this discussion and you take it far too seriously.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: it's fine to be humorous, so long as it's done without trying to denigrate the person to whom you are replying. LL repeatedly personalises their replies, and I am sick of it.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I disagree that he "denigrates". The two of you are often in disagreement, but Laurel generally keeps it civil, as he has done now. You'd better do the same.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)reply
There is nothing at all civil in LL's decade-long practice of attributing to me motives which I have not expressed and do not hold.
I kindly ask the involved editors to refrain from commenting on each other's behaviour. Please note that
assuming good faith is still the expected behaviour and that accusing other people of being too sensitive is at least
uncivil. If there is a need to resolve any long-term harassment, the place is elsewhere. --
TadejMmy talk 06:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support merger to
Category:Irish emigrants tree per BrownHairedGirl above. Year of emigration is not a defining feature, it makes no difference (in reality or in law) to an individual if they left Ireland in 1922 or 1923.
ITBF (
talk) 12:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Articles with example Python (programming language) code
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Weak Keep - I think using "code" probably is enough of an indicator. But
WP:PRECISION, nudges me towards keep. - jc37 07:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Marine reserves of Malta
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Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Only sibling has already proper categories
Estopedist1 (
talk) 08:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Irish literature by period
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Merge per nom, and it is also ambiguous: it may be interpreted as including English-language literature by Irish authors.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Exactly. Or medieval Latin literature by Irish writers (of which there is a lot).
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Irish texts
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Comments - I'm looking at
Literature and
Text (literary theory). And I'm wondering why we have separate trees for them. Semantically, one could argue that a "text" is the physical object, while the "literature" is what has been written upon the object. But, I think that's where we get
manuscript categories. - jc37 08:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom, for now, though I oppose the re-targeting of the parents. - jc37 08:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Merge per nom.
Oculi (
talk) 10:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now With no objection to recreating later if 5 articles ever emerge. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:38, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Malta in the arts and media
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Category:Entrenchments in Malta
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Nominator's rationale: "Entrenchments in" Foo country is unique name. We even don't have the parent
Category:EntrenchmentsEstopedist1 (
talk) 06:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Traditional medicine in the Maldives
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Merge Getting up to 5 articles seems unlikely. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 10:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Too small. Creation of articles seems unlikely. There is also not any material in the Maldivian Wikipedia to show it is expandable. --
TadejMmy talk 10:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC).reply
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Category:International baseball competitions hosted by France
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Object: With three articles it is not a "small" category and anyway it is part of a category tree for "International baseball competitions hosted by country” which includes 24 countries! Why leave one country out? Team sports like baseball or cricket are more likely to have international competitions competed for by a country team than sports often competed for by individual sports people.like boxing or judo.
Hugo999 (
talk) 11:51, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Lean toward Merge 3 articles is small but no objection to recreating if it gets up to 5 articles. Hugo999 makes a plausible case that this is part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme but, since most countries don't have this category, I don't think one more country not having one will hinder navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 14:59, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
CLYDETALK TO ME/
STUFF DONE (please
mention me on reply) 05:01, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The merge targets Hugo999 identified make sense, if we end up merging this cat. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Mineralogists
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Keep.
WP:SMALLCAT is for categories with limited or no expectation or possibility of growth (such as
Husbands of Elizabeth Taylor). These categories do not fit that criteria. All have potential for growth. I also don't see what the cut off point is:
Category:Danish mineralogists has five entries,
Category:Finnish mineralogists has four entries. Plus, I personally find it easier to navigate by specific terms.
ExRat (
talk) 05:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Obvious delete. We do create categories if we already have members, 5+ members are good, 3+ are acceptable. If 1-2 members, almost alwyays to be deleted. Pinging the keeper
user:ExRat--
Estopedist1 (
talk) 05:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. That isn't what
WP:SMALLCAT states at all. WP:SMALLCAT is for categories that have no potential for growth. It is for categories that are, by nature, extremely limited and can't possibly ever be enlarged. Examples would be Category:Xhosa-speaking countries or Category:Norwegians who fought in the Second Upper Peru campaign, which are limited in nature and can never be enlarged. All of the nominations have potential to be enlarged and don't fit the SMALLCAT criteria.
ExRat (
talk) 06:02, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Recreate when more Belarusians can be found.
Oculi (
talk) 10:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep for Slovenian mineralogists. It has 3 articles and is certainly expandable. In the Slovene Wikipedia,
it has 6 at the moment. --
TadejMmy talk 18:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. Thanks for pointing this out. I have added a few words on that in
Valentin Vodnik (the source contains: "he had the opportunity to combine his love for the mountains with his interest in mineralogy where he invested a lot of his time"), whereas the other article contains reference No. 3, which explicitly states that he studied "in Ljubljana at the Faculty of Natural Sciences, Department of Mineralogy" and then worked as a junior researcher. --
TadejMmy talk 02:15, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Albin Jarić - being a student of mineralogy does not make one a mineralogist; his research was at "the Metallurgical and Mining Institute" (which does not make him a metallurgist or a miner either). Was he notable as a mineralogist: obviously not.
Oculi (
talk) 13:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This is a discussion about categories. We're not discussing notability but whether mineralogy is defining for him. Obviously he was a mineralogist since he studied at the department of mineralogy and then people employed in mining/metallurgy also frequently research mineralogy. You're trying to split the indivisible here. --
TadejMmy talk 01:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This is a category (tree) by occupation, not by education. His occupation is student.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't follow your logic. It's clearly stated that he completed hia studies and worked as a junior researcher. --
TadejMmy talk 10:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. I have added another article which is available at
Stanko Grafenauer. I can add more. --
TadejMmy talk 03:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now with no objection to recreating cats later if they ever reach 5 articles that belong there. The "large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme" exception in
WP:SMALLCAT does not endorse having whole trees of underpopulated subcatgories. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, that's exactly what it does - what is the point of it otherwise?
Johnbod (
talk) 16:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The point is that an incidental subcategory in an otherwise (nearly) complete tree is omitted. This tree is far from complete.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. Different editors see this differently; for example, the number of at least 3 members is mentioned above which seems reasonable to me. In addition, per
WP:SMALLCAT, the category must have some potential for growth. --
TadejMmy talk 15:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Obvious KeepWP:SMALLCAT says "... unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme", which is the case here. If this nom were to create a precedent, heaven knows how many thousands of categories would be impacted. It's nice to see new faces here, but merging this would be a terrible precedent, as well as appearing to favour the large and rich countries that have 5+. It's very easy to say "Recreate when more Belarusians can be found", but,
Oculi, are you going to keep an eye on the main
Category:Mineralogists and
Category:Belarusian geologists to see if this has happened?
Johnbod (
talk) 16:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Mineralogists by nationality is hardly large. I am not interested in either Mineralogy or Belarusia, but those who are can put
Category:Mineralogists and
Category:Belarusian geologists on their watchlists and pounce once another 3 or 4 can be found.
WP:NARROWCAT might be a better rationale - there is no need to intersect these 2 categories as the combination of Belarusian and Mineralogists is not defining, indeed far from it. (
Belarus wiki has only found the same lone Mineralogist.) Looking deeper into this, the lone Belarusian
Ignacy Domeyko (1802-1889) in fact spent 50 years in Chile, and is categorised as Chilean, Belarusian, Lithuanian and Polish, as well as 'from the Russian Empire' and is one of the 3 in
Category:Polish mineralogists. His mineralogy was nothing whatever to do with Belarus or Poland (or Lithuania): he should only be in
Category:Chilean mineralogists (so
Category:Chilean geologists should also be watchlisted).
Oculi (
talk) 22:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If a few small categories are needed to complete a set, I'm all for that. But if most of the categories are anemic, that's not an "accepted sub-categorization scheme" and it makes navigation choppier for readers. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep all of these have clear expansion potential.
ITBF (
talk) 14:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Rename, 9 months should be enough for a speedy rename. But it may not have been enough for
WP:CFDS.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:3rd-century BC women rulers
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Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, it is silly to have this category parented to a regents category while quite a few articles are about queens regnant. They are quite different.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:4th-century BC women rulers
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Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:26, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support, it is silly to have this category parented to a regents category while quite a few articles are about queens regnant. They are quite different.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:9th-century BC women rulers
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Nominator's rationale: This better describes the lives of these ancient women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If I understand correctly, two of the three articles in the 16th century are about regents. In that case this nomination may well be merged with the one above.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
MarcocapelleHatshepsut was both a woman regent and a queen regnant, as her bio shows: Upon the death of her husband and half-brother
Thutmose II, she ruled initially as
regent to her stepson
Thutmose III, who inherited the throne at the age of two. Several years into her regency, Hatshepsut assumed the position of pharaoh and adopted the full
royal titulary, making her a co-ruler alongside Thutmose III. She is both in
Category:Female pharaohs and
Category:Regents of Egypt for this reason.
Ahhotep I and
Ahmose-Nefertari were only women regents, so it makes sense to rename this category from "women rulers" to "women regents", as this is what all three women had in common.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 08:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok. It appears I overlooked that the target for the 16th century is different from the 8th and 9th. But we should make sure that
Hatshepsut also stays in the queens regnant tree, shouldn't we?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support(with caveat as just mentioned), it is silly to have this category parented to a regents category while (at least in the 8th and 9th century) none of the articles are about regents. They are quite different.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:10, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Utica Pentups players
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Nominator's rationale: There are three separate categories for players on the same minor league baseball team with the only difference being formatting. They are
Category:Utica Pent Ups players,
Category:Utica Pentups players and
Category:Utica Pent-Ups players. While it is policy to have different categories for the same team when it changes names (e.g.
Category:Washington Commanders players and
Category:Washington Redskins players), the distinction here is so minute that I don't think it justifies having three separate categories. It should also be taken into consideration that this team played in an era when team nicknames were far from official and could be formatted differently within the same newspaper article (if the nickname was used at all). The corresponding article name is
Utica Pent-Ups and that seems the most reasonable target category to me; it seems to be a happy medium between "Pent Ups" with a space and no hyphen and "Pentups" with no space or hyphen.
Dennis C. Abrams (
talk) 18:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
P.S. I'm sorry for creating two separate nominations but Twinkle didn't give me an option to propose merging more than two categories.
Dennis C. Abrams (
talk) 18:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Since this is too granular. We can leave a redirect if appropriate. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Utica Pent Ups players
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Nominator's rationale: There are three separate categories for players on the same minor league baseball team with the only difference being formatting. They are
Category:Utica Pent Ups players,
Category:Utica Pentups players and
Category:Utica Pent-Ups players. While it is policy to have different categories for the same team when it changes names (e.g.
Category:Washington Commanders players and
Category:Washington Redskins players), the distinction here is so minute that I don't think it justifies having three separate categories. It should also be taken into consideration that this team played in an era when team nicknames were far from official and could be formatted differently within the same newspaper article (if the nickname was used at all). The corresponding article name is
Utica Pent-Ups and that seems the most reasonable target category to me; it seems to be a happy medium between "Pent Ups" with a space and no hyphen and "Pentups" with no space or hyphen.
Dennis C. Abrams (
talk) 18:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Since this is too granular. We can leave a redirect if appropriate. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Defence organisations based in Barbados
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Nominator's rationale: "Defence/Defense organisations/organizations" is ambigious name. E.g. we have "Civil defence organisations", but not the case here
Estopedist1 (
talk) 14:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Query What conflict? None of these proposals is the subject of the nomination cited above. A mention of an intention to perform another nomination does not give rise to a conflict. I simply got to the nomination table before anyone else. Plus, lest there be any doubt, I did not create
Category:People from Ireland (1801-1923). Everyone is free to discuss the nomination as proposed on its own merits.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 15:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support Clearer geographic scope.
Dimadick (
talk) 19:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I do not think this is a conflicting nomination. It is adding a start date to a period that already has an end date. But nevertheless - consistent with the other discussion - I would propose a completely different alternative, namely to upmerge the country subcats and to disperse the four articles. For emigration, the political status of Ireland does not matter a lot.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Re "For emigration, the political status of Ireland does not matter a lot." If that's true then it's also true for Scotland. But
Category:Scottish emigrants had 23 subcats.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 17:17, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle the reason for the break in 1923 is that in December 1922 Ireland was partitioned, so by some views, "Irish" no longer referred unambiguously to the whole island.
However for nearly all other purposes, en.wp categories simply use a
Category:Irish fooers with a subcat for Northern Ireland. So I like your suggestion that we should do the same here. I will make an ALT proposal on that basis.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 20:51, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The only ay in which this nomination serves any purpose is split Irish emigrants before an after the year 1801, which is a thoroughly unhelpful idea. Ireland was a unite political entity before the
Act of Union 1801, and it remained so after the Union. "So the term Irish emigrant" in 1799 means exactly the same as it did in 1802. The only change of scope happened with partition. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 17:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Laurel Lodged Not so. n some of those Austrian cases there was a change of geographical scope, which doesn't apply here.
If there wasn't a change of geographical scope, then the Austrian split is a bad idea which should be reversed, not replicated.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 18:59, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
A state changing from the islands of Great Britain and Ireland to just 26 counties is not a change of geographical scope? Interesting view.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 20:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This nom is about is not about 1922; it is about a proposal to add a break point in 1801. That break point is un-needed because "Irish" had exactly the same geographical scope before the 1801 Act of Union as it did afterwards.
"Irish" referred to exactly the same territory in 1799 as it did in 1802.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 20:40, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Apologies. I should have written a state changing from the island of Ireland to the islands of Great Britain and Ireland is not a change of geographical scope? Interesting view.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 21:50, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Still irrelevant. The word "Irish" had exactly the same geographical scope in 1799 as it did in 1802.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 08:14, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
ALT1 based on a suggetion above by
Marcocapelle. For nearly all other purposes, en.wp categories simply use a
Category:Irish fooers with a subcat for
Category:Fooers from Northern Ireland. So we should do the same here. Instead of adding another breakpoint, just remove the existing breakpoint.
Hundreds of biographical category trees use this structure. The "before 1923" subcats in some emigrant categories was created by an American editor who appears to have been unfamiliar with Irish categorisation.
This structure is stable and uncontroversial. If it works for lawyers, medical doctors, scientists, writers and many other occupations, there is no reason why it cannot also work for emigrants -- as it did until these "Emigrants before 1923" subcats were created without discussion.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 21:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support alt1 per above remarks. It has the added benefit of combining some emigrant categories.
Oculi (
talk) 21:35, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I am opting out of this ill-tempered discussion.
Oculi (
talk) 21:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Clarify Let's not go down BHG rabbit holes. Let's keep things calm. It's just putting a pre-date where there is currently just a post date. It was clearly the intent of the category that such a start date existed. The nomination does no more than make the implicit explicit.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 21:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
That sounds like an attempt to de-ligitimise the entire
Category:Emigrants from former countries tree structure. Ireland is a former country of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"; so is the
Kingdom of Great Britain, which is why it has its own category of
Category:Emigrants from the Kingdom of Great Britain. This nom is just a scope clarifiation with a "from" date. If BHG wants a wider nom to de-legitimise an entire tree structure, she should create a new set of noms and quit trying to hijack this nom.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 10:50, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Sigh. No of course it's not any such attempt.
And please withdraw that absurd allegation of a "hijack". Proposing an alternative action is a routine part of XFD discussions, as you should know very well after your many years at CFD ... and your allegation is just another of your disruptive attempts to add acrimony to a CFD debate and to maliciously allege a non-existent motive.
This discussion just about Ireland, and in particular about the very very very very simple fact which you seem resolutely determined to ignore: that "Irish people" has throughout history referred to people from the
island of Ireland, and that the scope of the term "Irish people" was unchanged by the
Act of Union 1801.
If you want to chop up all the biographical categories for Irish people into the subcats for the various states and regimes which have existed on the island of Ireland, then open a
WP:RFC where you can set out your case for why we should divide emigrants, lawyers, clergy, writers, lawyers, nuns, medics, farmer, businesspeople etc in this way. There you can explain why this carve-up would improve
navigation, which is the central purpose of categories.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 12:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Clarity 2 (1) It's my anointed role in Wiki to make BHG sigh. Job done. (2) There is no conflict. (3) This is not a delete or merge nom. (4) The nomination is just putting a pre-date where there is currently just a post date. It was clearly the intent of the category that such a start date existed. The nomination does no more than make the implicit explicit. (5) The existence of the dates in the current title points to the political nature of the current category, not the ethno-cultural nature of of it (it has none). In short, the scope is about states not ethno-cultural blocks. (6) Sister categories like
Category:Emigrants from the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Austrian examples show that this is a valid thing to do. See also
Category:History of Ireland (1801–1923). (7) This is not the place to attempt to de-ligitimise the entire
Category:Emigrants from former countries tree structure. Such an attempt ought to be the subject of an entirely different set of nominations. (8) Brace yourselves for more sighing and possibly worse.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 16:31, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Sigh.
Laurel Lodged continues to ignore the very very very very simple fact that the scope of the term "Irish people" did not change in 1801 ... so there is no need for a split.
Th rest of LL's comment is irrelevant hot air maliciously false allegations, and is explicit about their desire to troll me.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 16:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The latter is an unfair assessment, imho. LL tries to keep some humour in this discussion and you take it far too seriously.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle: it's fine to be humorous, so long as it's done without trying to denigrate the person to whom you are replying. LL repeatedly personalises their replies, and I am sick of it.
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 13:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I disagree that he "denigrates". The two of you are often in disagreement, but Laurel generally keeps it civil, as he has done now. You'd better do the same.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)reply
There is nothing at all civil in LL's decade-long practice of attributing to me motives which I have not expressed and do not hold.
I kindly ask the involved editors to refrain from commenting on each other's behaviour. Please note that
assuming good faith is still the expected behaviour and that accusing other people of being too sensitive is at least
uncivil. If there is a need to resolve any long-term harassment, the place is elsewhere. --
TadejMmy talk 06:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support merger to
Category:Irish emigrants tree per BrownHairedGirl above. Year of emigration is not a defining feature, it makes no difference (in reality or in law) to an individual if they left Ireland in 1922 or 1923.
ITBF (
talk) 12:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Articles with example Python (programming language) code
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Weak Keep - I think using "code" probably is enough of an indicator. But
WP:PRECISION, nudges me towards keep. - jc37 07:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Marine reserves of Malta
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Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Only sibling has already proper categories
Estopedist1 (
talk) 08:37, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Irish literature by period
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Merge per nom, and it is also ambiguous: it may be interpreted as including English-language literature by Irish authors.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Exactly. Or medieval Latin literature by Irish writers (of which there is a lot).
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 22:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Irish texts
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Comments - I'm looking at
Literature and
Text (literary theory). And I'm wondering why we have separate trees for them. Semantically, one could argue that a "text" is the physical object, while the "literature" is what has been written upon the object. But, I think that's where we get
manuscript categories. - jc37 08:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom, for now, though I oppose the re-targeting of the parents. - jc37 08:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Merge per nom.
Oculi (
talk) 10:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now With no objection to recreating later if 5 articles ever emerge. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:38, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Malta in the arts and media
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Category:Entrenchments in Malta
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Nominator's rationale: "Entrenchments in" Foo country is unique name. We even don't have the parent
Category:EntrenchmentsEstopedist1 (
talk) 06:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Traditional medicine in the Maldives
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Merge Getting up to 5 articles seems unlikely. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 10:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Too small. Creation of articles seems unlikely. There is also not any material in the Maldivian Wikipedia to show it is expandable. --
TadejMmy talk 10:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC).reply
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Category:International baseball competitions hosted by France
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Object: With three articles it is not a "small" category and anyway it is part of a category tree for "International baseball competitions hosted by country” which includes 24 countries! Why leave one country out? Team sports like baseball or cricket are more likely to have international competitions competed for by a country team than sports often competed for by individual sports people.like boxing or judo.
Hugo999 (
talk) 11:51, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Lean toward Merge 3 articles is small but no objection to recreating if it gets up to 5 articles. Hugo999 makes a plausible case that this is part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme but, since most countries don't have this category, I don't think one more country not having one will hinder navigation. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 14:59, 10 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
CLYDETALK TO ME/
STUFF DONE (please
mention me on reply) 05:01, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The merge targets Hugo999 identified make sense, if we end up merging this cat. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
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Mineralogists
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Keep.
WP:SMALLCAT is for categories with limited or no expectation or possibility of growth (such as
Husbands of Elizabeth Taylor). These categories do not fit that criteria. All have potential for growth. I also don't see what the cut off point is:
Category:Danish mineralogists has five entries,
Category:Finnish mineralogists has four entries. Plus, I personally find it easier to navigate by specific terms.
ExRat (
talk) 05:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Obvious delete. We do create categories if we already have members, 5+ members are good, 3+ are acceptable. If 1-2 members, almost alwyays to be deleted. Pinging the keeper
user:ExRat--
Estopedist1 (
talk) 05:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. That isn't what
WP:SMALLCAT states at all. WP:SMALLCAT is for categories that have no potential for growth. It is for categories that are, by nature, extremely limited and can't possibly ever be enlarged. Examples would be Category:Xhosa-speaking countries or Category:Norwegians who fought in the Second Upper Peru campaign, which are limited in nature and can never be enlarged. All of the nominations have potential to be enlarged and don't fit the SMALLCAT criteria.
ExRat (
talk) 06:02, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Recreate when more Belarusians can be found.
Oculi (
talk) 10:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep for Slovenian mineralogists. It has 3 articles and is certainly expandable. In the Slovene Wikipedia,
it has 6 at the moment. --
TadejMmy talk 18:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. Thanks for pointing this out. I have added a few words on that in
Valentin Vodnik (the source contains: "he had the opportunity to combine his love for the mountains with his interest in mineralogy where he invested a lot of his time"), whereas the other article contains reference No. 3, which explicitly states that he studied "in Ljubljana at the Faculty of Natural Sciences, Department of Mineralogy" and then worked as a junior researcher. --
TadejMmy talk 02:15, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Albin Jarić - being a student of mineralogy does not make one a mineralogist; his research was at "the Metallurgical and Mining Institute" (which does not make him a metallurgist or a miner either). Was he notable as a mineralogist: obviously not.
Oculi (
talk) 13:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This is a discussion about categories. We're not discussing notability but whether mineralogy is defining for him. Obviously he was a mineralogist since he studied at the department of mineralogy and then people employed in mining/metallurgy also frequently research mineralogy. You're trying to split the indivisible here. --
TadejMmy talk 01:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
This is a category (tree) by occupation, not by education. His occupation is student.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't follow your logic. It's clearly stated that he completed hia studies and worked as a junior researcher. --
TadejMmy talk 10:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. I have added another article which is available at
Stanko Grafenauer. I can add more. --
TadejMmy talk 03:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now with no objection to recreating cats later if they ever reach 5 articles that belong there. The "large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme" exception in
WP:SMALLCAT does not endorse having whole trees of underpopulated subcatgories. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, that's exactly what it does - what is the point of it otherwise?
Johnbod (
talk) 16:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The point is that an incidental subcategory in an otherwise (nearly) complete tree is omitted. This tree is far from complete.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. Different editors see this differently; for example, the number of at least 3 members is mentioned above which seems reasonable to me. In addition, per
WP:SMALLCAT, the category must have some potential for growth. --
TadejMmy talk 15:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Obvious KeepWP:SMALLCAT says "... unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme", which is the case here. If this nom were to create a precedent, heaven knows how many thousands of categories would be impacted. It's nice to see new faces here, but merging this would be a terrible precedent, as well as appearing to favour the large and rich countries that have 5+. It's very easy to say "Recreate when more Belarusians can be found", but,
Oculi, are you going to keep an eye on the main
Category:Mineralogists and
Category:Belarusian geologists to see if this has happened?
Johnbod (
talk) 16:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Category:Mineralogists by nationality is hardly large. I am not interested in either Mineralogy or Belarusia, but those who are can put
Category:Mineralogists and
Category:Belarusian geologists on their watchlists and pounce once another 3 or 4 can be found.
WP:NARROWCAT might be a better rationale - there is no need to intersect these 2 categories as the combination of Belarusian and Mineralogists is not defining, indeed far from it. (
Belarus wiki has only found the same lone Mineralogist.) Looking deeper into this, the lone Belarusian
Ignacy Domeyko (1802-1889) in fact spent 50 years in Chile, and is categorised as Chilean, Belarusian, Lithuanian and Polish, as well as 'from the Russian Empire' and is one of the 3 in
Category:Polish mineralogists. His mineralogy was nothing whatever to do with Belarus or Poland (or Lithuania): he should only be in
Category:Chilean mineralogists (so
Category:Chilean geologists should also be watchlisted).
Oculi (
talk) 22:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If a few small categories are needed to complete a set, I'm all for that. But if most of the categories are anemic, that's not an "accepted sub-categorization scheme" and it makes navigation choppier for readers. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 01:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep all of these have clear expansion potential.
ITBF (
talk) 14:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.