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Nominator's rationale:delete,
Koli people is an ethnicity so you would expect biographies in this category, but there aren't any.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: "France" didn't exist yet until 987, and the category includes peoples/tribes who dwelled in areas outside the borders of modern France such as the
Menapii (northern Belgium / southern Netherlands) and the
Vangiones (southwestern Germany). Also, "in" is a better preposition than "of", compare the only item in the category
Greeks in pre-Roman Gaul as well as siblings
Category:Ancient tribes in the Balkans,
Category:Ancient tribes in Greece,
Category:Ancient tribes in Hungary (perhaps rename that one to "Pannonia" as well?). While we're at it, we might as well rename its child as well. Parent
Category:French people by period should be purged, because that is in the Peoply by nationality tree, and there is no "French nationality" before there is a French state in 987.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
For sure "France" should be replaced by "Gaul", in order to solve anachronism. I do not have a preference between "in" and "of".
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I think "of" suggests ownership, or that said peoples were somehow "subjects" of said country, which is another way of misapplying the modern nationality concept to pre-modern times. I think we are interested in location: where did these people live? Not what their legal relationship with said country was.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. They were in Gaul, not of Gaul.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 13:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Henry Charles Andrews
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. The lead of
Henry Cranke Andrews explains that this person's middle name was long thought to be Charles, hence the confusion.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Hugo Fleury Donzel
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. Merge target incorporates the current name of the person's article.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:54, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Yngve Sjöstedt
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. Merge target incorporates the current name of the person's article.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Valery Konstantinovich Jeremčenko
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. I couldn't find the "Jeremčenko" transliteration elsewhere with a cursory search, but
this obituary uses the "Eremchenko" transliteration.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Konrad H. Christ
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. Merge target incorporates the current name of the person's article.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Delete, neither Scottish nor Irish clans are Celtic clans per se, due to a lot of immigration and assimilation in the course of history. Note that the three articles should be moved to one of the subcategories (or both) before deletion.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Good point. 2 of them are already in Scottish clans,
Sept should be moved to both.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
PS: The page
Sept is all they seem to have in common, but irony has it that sept is a Germanic word, cognate of
Sippe (German), sibbe (Dutch) and sibling (English), not "Celtic". Funny that.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:German chronicles
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@
Marcocapelle: You first suggested this as an Alt rename in the previous CfR. Do you still support it? I was hesitant, but now I agree. :) Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support for sure,
Holy Roman Empire is much more used than Germany when it is about history until 1806.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
And Austria (German speaking) and Bohemia (then party German speaking).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:28, 25 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Indeed. The scope was never limited to "German-speaking areas" (if we mean chronicles written in German, that's a different category:
Category:German-language chronicles); it was so far just "Germany" within its modern borders projected back into the past, but we are broadening that now to encompass the entire Holy Roman Empire. The related category
Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire was originally actually limited to "Belgium" within its modern borders projected back into the past, but then also expanded to the whole HRE.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 23:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Comment this gets to the notion of what the
Category:Nurses by nationality inclusion criteria are. Is the criteria based on the birth location of the nurse or the working/living location of the nurse? This is currently not a defined matter, though it might be tacitly settled. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:16, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 14:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Ceyockey: it can be both. Personally I find the latter more useful, but other editors are more interested in place of birth.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:12, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lists of modern Indo-European tribes and clans
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On the other hand,
Albanian tribes is apparently primarily based on language, not geography ("in Albania and the southwestern Balkans"... "Some of the tribes are considered extinct because no collective memory of descent has survived (i.e. Mataruga, Rogami etc.) while others became slavicised very early on and the majority of the descendants no longer consider themselves Albanian (i.e. Kuči, Mahine etc.).") So too for most other items in this arbitrarycat, like
Kurdish tribes who are divided across many countries and territories and only seem to share a language (family).
Moreover, the category claims to be about "modern" clans and tribes, but most contents are about "historical" tribes and clans which no longer exist.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Update: Nomination amended, "ancient" added per agreement with Marcocapelle. "Clans" and other items which aren't "ethnic groups/tribes/peoples", and items which are not "lists", should be purged. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, per nom, this is a very confusing category. But we can still merge this to parent
Category:Lists of ethnic groups instead of deleting it.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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That's actually a good point; the biographies aren't otherwise contained in the women by century tree at the moment. So we would have to Upmerge them all to their grandparents, because parent Xth-century women by nationality is a useless containercat for our purposes here. So I guess Upmerge all to Xth-century women?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
A number of articles is in that tree anyway, so it should be a manual merge.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok, then I support a Manual upmerge all to Xth-century women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Celtic American
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Delete, Scots aren't Celts per se, due to a lot of immigration and assimilation in the course of history, and the same applies to every other subcategory in this tree.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Celtic warfare
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Note to closer: Apparently I can't make a CfD template identify 4 targets instead of 2, but I'm proposing to split this category into 4 new categories, not 2. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 11:22, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
It should be clear enough. The terms
queen regnant and
empress regnant have got a very specific meaning and history in the English language, derived from the French custom of putting the adjective behind a noun in certain cases (compare
heir presumptive,
heir apparent,
lords spiritual,
lords temporal,
governors-general etc.; that last one also exists in Dutch of course). We can't self-invent our own [noun adjective] combos like monarchs regnant; if you google that, you'll see nobody uses it. On the other hand women monarchs is quite widely used, apparently since the mid-20th century. It would also be redundant, because monarchs are by definition regnant, and queens consort are by definition not monarchs. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dutch queens consort
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Category:Mauryan empresses
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Category:4th-century women rulers
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Note to closer: Apparently I can't make a CfD template identify 3 targets instead of 2, but I'm proposing to split this category into 3 new categories, not 2. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 09:57, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wives of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi
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Category:3rd-century women rulers
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Category:Iranic folklore
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Nominator's rationale:delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. No need to merge, the subcategory is already in
Category:Asian folklore.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indo-European folklore
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Nominator's rationale:split, trivial intersection, there is insufficient commonality in folklore between peoples who speak an Indo-European language. The three remaining "Indo-European" subcategories should be moved to
Category:Indo-European culture.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:delete,
Koli people is an ethnicity so you would expect biographies in this category, but there aren't any.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: "France" didn't exist yet until 987, and the category includes peoples/tribes who dwelled in areas outside the borders of modern France such as the
Menapii (northern Belgium / southern Netherlands) and the
Vangiones (southwestern Germany). Also, "in" is a better preposition than "of", compare the only item in the category
Greeks in pre-Roman Gaul as well as siblings
Category:Ancient tribes in the Balkans,
Category:Ancient tribes in Greece,
Category:Ancient tribes in Hungary (perhaps rename that one to "Pannonia" as well?). While we're at it, we might as well rename its child as well. Parent
Category:French people by period should be purged, because that is in the Peoply by nationality tree, and there is no "French nationality" before there is a French state in 987.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
For sure "France" should be replaced by "Gaul", in order to solve anachronism. I do not have a preference between "in" and "of".
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I think "of" suggests ownership, or that said peoples were somehow "subjects" of said country, which is another way of misapplying the modern nationality concept to pre-modern times. I think we are interested in location: where did these people live? Not what their legal relationship with said country was.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. They were in Gaul, not of Gaul.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 13:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Henry Charles Andrews
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. The lead of
Henry Cranke Andrews explains that this person's middle name was long thought to be Charles, hence the confusion.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Hugo Fleury Donzel
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. Merge target incorporates the current name of the person's article.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:54, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Yngve Sjöstedt
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. Merge target incorporates the current name of the person's article.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Valery Konstantinovich Jeremčenko
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. I couldn't find the "Jeremčenko" transliteration elsewhere with a cursory search, but
this obituary uses the "Eremchenko" transliteration.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Taxa named by Konrad H. Christ
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Nominator's rationale: Categories refer to the same person. Merge target incorporates the current name of the person's article.
Vahurzpu (
talk) 16:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Delete, neither Scottish nor Irish clans are Celtic clans per se, due to a lot of immigration and assimilation in the course of history. Note that the three articles should be moved to one of the subcategories (or both) before deletion.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Good point. 2 of them are already in Scottish clans,
Sept should be moved to both.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
PS: The page
Sept is all they seem to have in common, but irony has it that sept is a Germanic word, cognate of
Sippe (German), sibbe (Dutch) and sibling (English), not "Celtic". Funny that.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 16:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:German chronicles
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@
Marcocapelle: You first suggested this as an Alt rename in the previous CfR. Do you still support it? I was hesitant, but now I agree. :) Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 15:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support for sure,
Holy Roman Empire is much more used than Germany when it is about history until 1806.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 15:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
And Austria (German speaking) and Bohemia (then party German speaking).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:28, 25 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Indeed. The scope was never limited to "German-speaking areas" (if we mean chronicles written in German, that's a different category:
Category:German-language chronicles); it was so far just "Germany" within its modern borders projected back into the past, but we are broadening that now to encompass the entire Holy Roman Empire. The related category
Category:Chroniclers from the Holy Roman Empire was originally actually limited to "Belgium" within its modern borders projected back into the past, but then also expanded to the whole HRE.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 23:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Comment this gets to the notion of what the
Category:Nurses by nationality inclusion criteria are. Is the criteria based on the birth location of the nurse or the working/living location of the nurse? This is currently not a defined matter, though it might be tacitly settled. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:16, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Qwerfjkltalk 14:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Ceyockey: it can be both. Personally I find the latter more useful, but other editors are more interested in place of birth.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:12, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lists of modern Indo-European tribes and clans
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On the other hand,
Albanian tribes is apparently primarily based on language, not geography ("in Albania and the southwestern Balkans"... "Some of the tribes are considered extinct because no collective memory of descent has survived (i.e. Mataruga, Rogami etc.) while others became slavicised very early on and the majority of the descendants no longer consider themselves Albanian (i.e. Kuči, Mahine etc.).") So too for most other items in this arbitrarycat, like
Kurdish tribes who are divided across many countries and territories and only seem to share a language (family).
Moreover, the category claims to be about "modern" clans and tribes, but most contents are about "historical" tribes and clans which no longer exist.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 14:53, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Update: Nomination amended, "ancient" added per agreement with Marcocapelle. "Clans" and other items which aren't "ethnic groups/tribes/peoples", and items which are not "lists", should be purged. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 19:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support in principle, per nom, this is a very confusing category. But we can still merge this to parent
Category:Lists of ethnic groups instead of deleting it.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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That's actually a good point; the biographies aren't otherwise contained in the women by century tree at the moment. So we would have to Upmerge them all to their grandparents, because parent Xth-century women by nationality is a useless containercat for our purposes here. So I guess Upmerge all to Xth-century women?
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
A number of articles is in that tree anyway, so it should be a manual merge.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Ok, then I support a Manual upmerge all to Xth-century women.
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Celtic American
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Delete, Scots aren't Celts per se, due to a lot of immigration and assimilation in the course of history, and the same applies to every other subcategory in this tree.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 16:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Celtic warfare
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Note to closer: Apparently I can't make a CfD template identify 4 targets instead of 2, but I'm proposing to split this category into 4 new categories, not 2. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 11:22, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
It should be clear enough. The terms
queen regnant and
empress regnant have got a very specific meaning and history in the English language, derived from the French custom of putting the adjective behind a noun in certain cases (compare
heir presumptive,
heir apparent,
lords spiritual,
lords temporal,
governors-general etc.; that last one also exists in Dutch of course). We can't self-invent our own [noun adjective] combos like monarchs regnant; if you google that, you'll see nobody uses it. On the other hand women monarchs is quite widely used, apparently since the mid-20th century. It would also be redundant, because monarchs are by definition regnant, and queens consort are by definition not monarchs. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 17:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dutch queens consort
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Category:Mauryan empresses
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Category:4th-century women rulers
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Note to closer: Apparently I can't make a CfD template identify 3 targets instead of 2, but I'm proposing to split this category into 3 new categories, not 2. Cheers,
Nederlandse Leeuw (
talk) 09:57, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wives of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi
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Category:3rd-century women rulers
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Category:Iranic folklore
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Nominator's rationale:delete, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. No need to merge, the subcategory is already in
Category:Asian folklore.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Indo-European folklore
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Nominator's rationale:split, trivial intersection, there is insufficient commonality in folklore between peoples who speak an Indo-European language. The three remaining "Indo-European" subcategories should be moved to
Category:Indo-European culture.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)reply
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