Non-notable actor, possible
mercenary work. Most of the sources are mere mentions/name-drops of her, being focused on other members of her family instead. Urdu!VoA is a prose-style interview with her based on the automated translation, two sources are about being given a non-exclusive reward. Draftification attempts led to a move-war; see
WP:AN/I#User:BeauSuzanne. —
Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques16:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
assume good faith on the part of others and to
sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
Not where biographies of living persons are concerned. Literally everything in the article that could reasonably be challenged must be sourced, and the award is the only thing that can be sourced based on what I'm seeing. An "article" that just states she won an award without any further context isn't really much of a stub, let alone an article. —
Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques16:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: For the record - I draftified the BLP because it was in poor shape, filled with WP:OR using WP:FICTREF. However,
Mushy Yank reverted my draftification without addressing the WP:OR issues, which escalated into a
move war (not initiated by me though). This BLP appears to be a case of WP:UPE because it was created by an editor
BeauSuzanne, who has a notoriously bad history of creating BLPs on non-notable subjects using WP:FICTREF. Anyone arguing for keeping this based on WP:ANYBIO # 1 must understand that there is no consensus that ANYBIO #1 supersedes GNG.. Clearly, the subject fails to meet the requirements of GNG and WP:NBIO as well. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
16:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Jeraxmoira expanded the BLP since it was AfD'd, but I still don't see it meeting the GNG and since there's no consensus that ANYBIO#1 overrides GNG, so in order to preserve Jeraxmoira's work, I'd like to suggest we Redirect it to
Naeem Tahir per @
S0091, —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
18:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: Stating that I had not tried to honestly address the issues mentioned in the tags then on the page (and judged that they could reasonably appear addressed; even if they were perhaps not completely addressed) is at best exaggerated (see my edit, edit summary, the tags themselves (different of those currently on the page), the state of the page then and page history) and stating that there was a move-war is clearly misleading (see
article TP, where this was explained. Thank you. I will not make any further comments here, the same way I did not reply any further on that page and stopped editing it, for various reasons, including lack of time. -
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)16:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. She is a well know a radio artist. The government of pakistan awarded her and she also worked in a few dramas which i added but you removed it.(
BeauSuzanne (
talk)
16:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC))reply
BeauSuzanne, Your argument that she received an award (WP:ANYBIO# 1) has already been countered above and your claim that she also worked in a few dramas doesn't really justifies a standalone BLP and is not convincing either, especially if the roles were not major. And as you yourself mentioned, that she's a radio artist, which also makes it difficult for her to meet the NACTOR. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
17:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Aren't radio artist notable she has been workin since 1958 which is in the source too and has worked more than three decades.(
BeauSuzanne (
talk)
17:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC))reply
Delete: wedding photos and discussions of her spouse are all I find... The award could suggest notability, but the sourcing isn't there.
Oaktree b (
talk)
20:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Allan Nonymous the award is one of the highest national honors bestowed by Pakistan. In the year she received it, there were only 36 recipients and she was one of the two females. It may not be enough to establish notability but please do not call minor.
S0091 (
talk)
20:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
IP - I'm simply pointing out that the credibility of this award isn't strong, so it's not inappropriate to classify it as a minor civilian award. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
09:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I think I've stated my position and while I don't need to provide evidence for everything I say, but, if you insist, you can refer to
this,
this and
this, which says In the past, numerous Pakistani TV, film, music and literature personalities have been given these awards, while others struggled to even get nominated. Many complained of the lack of a stringent criterion and claimed favouritism as well.. If you don't want to trust me, that's your choice. However, you should consider trusting these sources and the former
senior cabinet minister who have made the same
statements as mine, about these civil awards. I prefer not to engage with WP:LOUTSOCK, so I won't argue further. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
10:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Not a single source claims that Yasmeen Tahir got an award due to personal connections or that she was not awarded as per merit neither they mentioned Sitara-i-Imtiaz is fake/minor. You are throwing fictious sources that does'nt support your claims.
2404:3100:1402:FFDF:1:0:9155:36D0 (
talk)
10:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
S0091, Allow me to clarify my remarks. I do not deny that it is one of the highest civilian awards in the country. Perhaps my wording was incorrect. What I intended to say is that it is referred to as minor in the sense that it lacks credibility and I provided sources to support my claims, and the more I research it, the more I find
opinions aligning with mine. [Granting civil awards to minions, crooks and fraudsters has eroded the prestige and value of these awards.] That said, it's still an honor to receive such an award, even if its credibility has diminished. However, basing a BLP solely on this award doesn't make sense to me at all. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Well I think we can all agree Yasmeen Tahir is not one those crooks or fraudsters. :) That opinion piece is about civil awards in general, of which there are several, with specific focus on higher education and one example regarding the Tamgha-e-Imtiaz. Also clearly he agrees the award has prestige and value; otherwise it couldn't be eroded. As I state above I am not saying the award in and of itself establishes notability; only that is not a minor award.
S0091 (
talk)
16:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Sitara-i-Imtiaz#Recipients of Sitara-e-Imtiaz: I have tried to find at least a couple secondary reliable sources with in-depth coverage about her but everything is brief mentions. Within those mentions it is clear to me she has had an impact but it's not enough to establish notability. However, sources could come to light in the future so I at least want to maintain the work that has been done which a redirect will accomplish. I do think the title should changed to Yasmin Tahir, though.
S0091 (
talk)
17:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Changing to keep per Jeraxmoira's improvements and additional findings along with mine. It is clear Tahir/Tahir's work has been written about so sources exist but the issues are access to sources and transliteration.
S0091 (
talk)
18:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Most of the sources exist in the keyphrase "یاسمین طاہر". The initial concerns about
sourcing have been significantly fixed
now. Many of the latest sources added are not mere passing mentions and multiple sources verify particular claims. Everything in the article is sourced and the concerns about OR and UPE have been fixed as I have contributed to almost 55.5% of the article's content, completely rewriting it
forward and none were referred from the
4 July version of this article.
There is much more information available now beyond wedding photos and content related to
Naeem Tahir which were also one of the previous concerns. This article
cannot be redirected or merged to a suitable target, i.e
Naeem Tahir,
Imtiaz Ali Taj or
Sitara-i-Imtiaz as it has extensive coverage from her early life till now, which will be lost or cannot be fit into another article without disparaging it. With the current level of sourcing, the subject passes
WP:BASIC and
WP:ANYBIO#1.
Per
Sitara-i-Imtiaz - It recognizes individuals who have made an "especially meritorious contribution to the security or national interests of Pakistan, world peace, cultural or other significant public endeavours". I believe her continued contributions from
Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 until now is what made her eligible for
Sitara-i-Imtiaz. The amount of coverage she has now is surprising for someone who is notable for her work during and after the war, when the internet did not exist. This article should be kept as a significant amount of coverage exists in offline
books, local newspapers and other magazines popular during that time. Adding that to what we have online will easily make her notable.
Jeraxmoira🐉 (
talk)
20:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
To be honest, I have no idea how or where they'll be able to find it in Pakistan. Most probably in a renowned public library I guess. My point is that the subject will pass GNG easily with what we may find offline, which is just additional to what we have online and I believe what we already have online/in the article is enough to establish notability via SNG. FWIW, her name has a lot of hits in the
Urdu Digest monthly magazine, but I haven't used them because of poor translation output. If I am right, significant coverage is not necessary for someone who passes WP:ANYBIO, so I think we have addressed all the issues here.
Jeraxmoira🐉 (
talk)
11:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Jeraxmoira, Thanks for your efforts in expanding this BLP However I must highlight that the majority of Urdu sources you cited are not even considered RS for BLPs and I'm unsure if we can use them for WP:V much less to establish GNG. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
18:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep; the sources added by Jeraxmoira are impressive. Transliteration makes searching difficult -- Yasmeen, Yasmin, Yasmine could all be used in English -- and the fact there aren't sources in English doesn't mean this person isn't notable in Pakistan.
Valereee (
talk)
11:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Non-notable actor, possible
mercenary work. Most of the sources are mere mentions/name-drops of her, being focused on other members of her family instead. Urdu!VoA is a prose-style interview with her based on the automated translation, two sources are about being given a non-exclusive reward. Draftification attempts led to a move-war; see
WP:AN/I#User:BeauSuzanne. —
Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques16:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
assume good faith on the part of others and to
sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
Not where biographies of living persons are concerned. Literally everything in the article that could reasonably be challenged must be sourced, and the award is the only thing that can be sourced based on what I'm seeing. An "article" that just states she won an award without any further context isn't really much of a stub, let alone an article. —
Jéské Courianov^_^vthreadscritiques16:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Delete: For the record - I draftified the BLP because it was in poor shape, filled with WP:OR using WP:FICTREF. However,
Mushy Yank reverted my draftification without addressing the WP:OR issues, which escalated into a
move war (not initiated by me though). This BLP appears to be a case of WP:UPE because it was created by an editor
BeauSuzanne, who has a notoriously bad history of creating BLPs on non-notable subjects using WP:FICTREF. Anyone arguing for keeping this based on WP:ANYBIO # 1 must understand that there is no consensus that ANYBIO #1 supersedes GNG.. Clearly, the subject fails to meet the requirements of GNG and WP:NBIO as well. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
16:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Jeraxmoira expanded the BLP since it was AfD'd, but I still don't see it meeting the GNG and since there's no consensus that ANYBIO#1 overrides GNG, so in order to preserve Jeraxmoira's work, I'd like to suggest we Redirect it to
Naeem Tahir per @
S0091, —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
18:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment: Stating that I had not tried to honestly address the issues mentioned in the tags then on the page (and judged that they could reasonably appear addressed; even if they were perhaps not completely addressed) is at best exaggerated (see my edit, edit summary, the tags themselves (different of those currently on the page), the state of the page then and page history) and stating that there was a move-war is clearly misleading (see
article TP, where this was explained. Thank you. I will not make any further comments here, the same way I did not reply any further on that page and stopped editing it, for various reasons, including lack of time. -
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)16:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep. She is a well know a radio artist. The government of pakistan awarded her and she also worked in a few dramas which i added but you removed it.(
BeauSuzanne (
talk)
16:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC))reply
BeauSuzanne, Your argument that she received an award (WP:ANYBIO# 1) has already been countered above and your claim that she also worked in a few dramas doesn't really justifies a standalone BLP and is not convincing either, especially if the roles were not major. And as you yourself mentioned, that she's a radio artist, which also makes it difficult for her to meet the NACTOR. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
17:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Aren't radio artist notable she has been workin since 1958 which is in the source too and has worked more than three decades.(
BeauSuzanne (
talk)
17:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC))reply
Delete: wedding photos and discussions of her spouse are all I find... The award could suggest notability, but the sourcing isn't there.
Oaktree b (
talk)
20:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Allan Nonymous the award is one of the highest national honors bestowed by Pakistan. In the year she received it, there were only 36 recipients and she was one of the two females. It may not be enough to establish notability but please do not call minor.
S0091 (
talk)
20:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)reply
IP - I'm simply pointing out that the credibility of this award isn't strong, so it's not inappropriate to classify it as a minor civilian award. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
09:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
I think I've stated my position and while I don't need to provide evidence for everything I say, but, if you insist, you can refer to
this,
this and
this, which says In the past, numerous Pakistani TV, film, music and literature personalities have been given these awards, while others struggled to even get nominated. Many complained of the lack of a stringent criterion and claimed favouritism as well.. If you don't want to trust me, that's your choice. However, you should consider trusting these sources and the former
senior cabinet minister who have made the same
statements as mine, about these civil awards. I prefer not to engage with WP:LOUTSOCK, so I won't argue further. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
10:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Not a single source claims that Yasmeen Tahir got an award due to personal connections or that she was not awarded as per merit neither they mentioned Sitara-i-Imtiaz is fake/minor. You are throwing fictious sources that does'nt support your claims.
2404:3100:1402:FFDF:1:0:9155:36D0 (
talk)
10:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
S0091, Allow me to clarify my remarks. I do not deny that it is one of the highest civilian awards in the country. Perhaps my wording was incorrect. What I intended to say is that it is referred to as minor in the sense that it lacks credibility and I provided sources to support my claims, and the more I research it, the more I find
opinions aligning with mine. [Granting civil awards to minions, crooks and fraudsters has eroded the prestige and value of these awards.] That said, it's still an honor to receive such an award, even if its credibility has diminished. However, basing a BLP solely on this award doesn't make sense to me at all. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Well I think we can all agree Yasmeen Tahir is not one those crooks or fraudsters. :) That opinion piece is about civil awards in general, of which there are several, with specific focus on higher education and one example regarding the Tamgha-e-Imtiaz. Also clearly he agrees the award has prestige and value; otherwise it couldn't be eroded. As I state above I am not saying the award in and of itself establishes notability; only that is not a minor award.
S0091 (
talk)
16:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Redirect to
Sitara-i-Imtiaz#Recipients of Sitara-e-Imtiaz: I have tried to find at least a couple secondary reliable sources with in-depth coverage about her but everything is brief mentions. Within those mentions it is clear to me she has had an impact but it's not enough to establish notability. However, sources could come to light in the future so I at least want to maintain the work that has been done which a redirect will accomplish. I do think the title should changed to Yasmin Tahir, though.
S0091 (
talk)
17:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Changing to keep per Jeraxmoira's improvements and additional findings along with mine. It is clear Tahir/Tahir's work has been written about so sources exist but the issues are access to sources and transliteration.
S0091 (
talk)
18:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Most of the sources exist in the keyphrase "یاسمین طاہر". The initial concerns about
sourcing have been significantly fixed
now. Many of the latest sources added are not mere passing mentions and multiple sources verify particular claims. Everything in the article is sourced and the concerns about OR and UPE have been fixed as I have contributed to almost 55.5% of the article's content, completely rewriting it
forward and none were referred from the
4 July version of this article.
There is much more information available now beyond wedding photos and content related to
Naeem Tahir which were also one of the previous concerns. This article
cannot be redirected or merged to a suitable target, i.e
Naeem Tahir,
Imtiaz Ali Taj or
Sitara-i-Imtiaz as it has extensive coverage from her early life till now, which will be lost or cannot be fit into another article without disparaging it. With the current level of sourcing, the subject passes
WP:BASIC and
WP:ANYBIO#1.
Per
Sitara-i-Imtiaz - It recognizes individuals who have made an "especially meritorious contribution to the security or national interests of Pakistan, world peace, cultural or other significant public endeavours". I believe her continued contributions from
Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 until now is what made her eligible for
Sitara-i-Imtiaz. The amount of coverage she has now is surprising for someone who is notable for her work during and after the war, when the internet did not exist. This article should be kept as a significant amount of coverage exists in offline
books, local newspapers and other magazines popular during that time. Adding that to what we have online will easily make her notable.
Jeraxmoira🐉 (
talk)
20:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)reply
To be honest, I have no idea how or where they'll be able to find it in Pakistan. Most probably in a renowned public library I guess. My point is that the subject will pass GNG easily with what we may find offline, which is just additional to what we have online and I believe what we already have online/in the article is enough to establish notability via SNG. FWIW, her name has a lot of hits in the
Urdu Digest monthly magazine, but I haven't used them because of poor translation output. If I am right, significant coverage is not necessary for someone who passes WP:ANYBIO, so I think we have addressed all the issues here.
Jeraxmoira🐉 (
talk)
11:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Jeraxmoira, Thanks for your efforts in expanding this BLP However I must highlight that the majority of Urdu sources you cited are not even considered RS for BLPs and I'm unsure if we can use them for WP:V much less to establish GNG. —
Saqib (
talk I
contribs)
18:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep; the sources added by Jeraxmoira are impressive. Transliteration makes searching difficult -- Yasmeen, Yasmin, Yasmine could all be used in English -- and the fact there aren't sources in English doesn't mean this person isn't notable in Pakistan.
Valereee (
talk)
11:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)reply