- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. I don't see a consensus here. If it was up to me, I'd suggest considering a merge or draftification but that is not an AFD closure decision. Liz Read! Talk! 03:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Thajuddin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article is about Chera Perumals of Makotai and specially it covers Legend of Cheraman Perumals and it already covered about Thajuddin. But the current article is not give reliable source and some sources NOT directly confirm certain events. Splitting of the Moon is a believe, not historical and scientific event. Did Thajuddin lived during the time of Muhammad or after Mohamed? Legend of Cheraman Perumals already cover the topic and no need to have another non proven person. Antan O 18:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Antan O 18:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Tamil Nadu-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:43, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- The inclusion of Thajuddin's page in Wikipedia is justified as it encapsulates a significant historical and cultural figure. While acknowledging the challenges regarding source reliability, Thajuddin represents a figure of substantial folklore and tradition, contributing to the rich tapestry of cultural narratives. Despite the debate surrounding the historical accuracy of certain events attributed to him, his presence in historical discussions provides insight into the socio-political milieu of his time. Thajuddin's purported existence, whether contemporaneous with or postdating Muhammad, offers a lens through which to explore the interplay of legend and history in the broader narrative of the Cheraman Perumals and their era. Therefore, his inclusion fosters a more comprehensive understanding of the cultural heritage and historical discourse surrounding the Cheraman Perumals of Makotai.
DonParlo (
talk)
19:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
-
Checkuser note: DonParlo is the same person as the socks below --
Blablubbs (
talk)
02:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
-
- Keep. Kings are automatically notable. Somebody moved the article to Draft. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 01:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Kings are notable. But, Why this duplicate page (
Chera Perumals of Makotai and
Legend of Cheraman Perumals)? Already this article was declined. User already mentioned it as folklore and tradition, and it already covered in
Legend of Cheraman Perumals. There is no reliable source, and the reliable sources point to Cheraman Perumal, not so called Thajuddin who met Muhammad (from Kerala to Mecca). --
Antan
O
11:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the concern about potential duplication and the classification of the topic as folklore and tradition, but the existence of a separate page dedicated to Thajuddin, who purportedly met Muhammad, serves to provide a focused platform for exploring this aspect of Kerala's history and its cultural narratives. While it may be acknowledged as folklore, documenting such narratives contributes to the broader understanding of regional legends and their cultural significance. Moreover, although sources may vary in reliability, the presence of differing accounts underscores the diversity of perspectives and interpretations within historical discourse. As such, maintaining a distinct page for Thajuddin allows for a nuanced examination of this figure and his alleged encounter, enriching the discourse surrounding Kerala's historical and cultural landscape. The article in Legend of Cheraman Perumals does not cover this Legend in detail. DonParlo ( talk) 23:43, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- //Thajuddin, who purportedly met Muhammad, serves to provide a focused platform for exploring this aspect of Kerala's history and its cultural narratives// Can you give reliable source for such claim? --
Antan
O
15:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- ^ O. Loth, Arabic Manuscripts in the Library of the India Office (London: Secretary of State of India, 1877), no. 1044.
- ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g Y. Friedmann, "Qissat Shakarwati Farmad: A Tradition Concerning the Introduction of Islam to Malabar", Israel Oriental Studies 5 (1975), 239-241.
- ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f Prange, Sebastian R. Monsoon Islam: Trade and Faith on the Medieval Malabar Coast. Cambridge University Press, 2018. 95-98.
- ^ Y. Friedmann, "Qissat Shakarwati Farmad: A Tradition Concerning the Introduction of Islam to Malabar", Israel Oriental Studies 5 (1975), 239-241.
- ^ H. H. Wilson, Mackenzie Collection. A descriptive catalogue of the Oriental manuscripts and other articles illustrative of the literature, history, statistics and antiquities of the south of India (Calcutta, 1828), II, appendix, p. XCV.
- ^ Prange, Sebastian R. Monsoon Islam: Trade and Faith on the Medieval Malabar Coast. Cambridge University Press, 2018. 98. DonParlo ( talk) 20:29, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.scribd.com/document/519315791/Qissat-Shakarwati-Farmad-a-Tradition-Con DonParlo ( talk) 20:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting for clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 10:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)If you look at this objectively this wiki page does not do that much significant to anything. So what's the point of deleting it. I think people should keep this page. Is it gives a deeper insight into the legend. ஸ்டீவன் ஸ்கால் ( talk) 15:19, 7 February 2024 (UTC)WP:SOCKSTRIKE -- Blablubbs ( talk) 02:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. To begin with the subject of the page Thajuddin, there is no reference that it was formerly called Tamil King Cheraman Perumal. More so, there are contentious websites and some references that are just scraps as if someone did a Google search to find a word and used it as a testimony for a much larger paragraph. I find it impossible to verify the paragraphs from the references given. RangersRus ( talk) 22:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to
Legend of Cheraman Perumals. The legend of the introduction of Islam to India is certainly notable, but the present article presents this legend as fact. The
Legend of Cheraman Perumals article can be expanded with the specific events in the legend (the vision of the split moon and the pilgrimage to Mecca) if Indian historiographic sources are sufficient to verify that this is, in fact, part of the known legend.
WikiDan61
ChatMe!
ReadMe!!
16:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Merge would be good, but need to cleanup per RS. Antan O 19:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
| Sock !votes -- Blablubbs ( talk) 02:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
- Comment: As per nomination and heavy involvements of SOCKS -- ~AntanO4task ( talk) 07:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Last relisting did not establish any clear consensus, but only few sock votes. Relisting again for clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 05:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 02:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: This is a confusing mess. The discussion above is all over the place, the sourcing seems odd. TNT is probably best. Could draft it, but we'd need to start from zero again. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep and Edit: People should keep the wiki page of Thajuddin even if it is poorly sourced because it provides a starting point for further research and discussion, potentially leading to the improvement of the page's quality over time. According to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, "Information provided in an article must be verifiable and cited to reliable sources, even if it is not actually footnoted in the article." This means that while poorly sourced information should be improved, the existence of the page itself is justified as long as efforts are made to enhance its reliability and accuracy.
தமிழ் வீரன் ஜைத் (
talk)
13:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sending it to draft would better suit what you're describing. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- You ID seems new and your edit patterns are similar as per above socks.
Antan
O
19:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am from India I use a VPN it sends me to random places I don't edit much as I just started this account I only fix spelling errors usually. தமிழ் வீரன் ஜைத் ( talk) 03:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Keep Kings area always notable, and a first king to embrace a religion is absolutely notable. The article needs work for sure, but that doesn't justify deletion.DarmaniLink ( talk) 18:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)- I think you didn't see the duplicate page that already exist with primary name. Antan O 19:53, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. I don't see a consensus here. If it was up to me, I'd suggest considering a merge or draftification but that is not an AFD closure decision. Liz Read! Talk! 03:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Thajuddin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article is about Chera Perumals of Makotai and specially it covers Legend of Cheraman Perumals and it already covered about Thajuddin. But the current article is not give reliable source and some sources NOT directly confirm certain events. Splitting of the Moon is a believe, not historical and scientific event. Did Thajuddin lived during the time of Muhammad or after Mohamed? Legend of Cheraman Perumals already cover the topic and no need to have another non proven person. Antan O 18:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Antan O 18:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Tamil Nadu-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:43, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- The inclusion of Thajuddin's page in Wikipedia is justified as it encapsulates a significant historical and cultural figure. While acknowledging the challenges regarding source reliability, Thajuddin represents a figure of substantial folklore and tradition, contributing to the rich tapestry of cultural narratives. Despite the debate surrounding the historical accuracy of certain events attributed to him, his presence in historical discussions provides insight into the socio-political milieu of his time. Thajuddin's purported existence, whether contemporaneous with or postdating Muhammad, offers a lens through which to explore the interplay of legend and history in the broader narrative of the Cheraman Perumals and their era. Therefore, his inclusion fosters a more comprehensive understanding of the cultural heritage and historical discourse surrounding the Cheraman Perumals of Makotai.
DonParlo (
talk)
19:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
-
Checkuser note: DonParlo is the same person as the socks below --
Blablubbs (
talk)
02:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
-
- Keep. Kings are automatically notable. Somebody moved the article to Draft. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 01:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Kings are notable. But, Why this duplicate page (
Chera Perumals of Makotai and
Legend of Cheraman Perumals)? Already this article was declined. User already mentioned it as folklore and tradition, and it already covered in
Legend of Cheraman Perumals. There is no reliable source, and the reliable sources point to Cheraman Perumal, not so called Thajuddin who met Muhammad (from Kerala to Mecca). --
Antan
O
11:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- I understand the concern about potential duplication and the classification of the topic as folklore and tradition, but the existence of a separate page dedicated to Thajuddin, who purportedly met Muhammad, serves to provide a focused platform for exploring this aspect of Kerala's history and its cultural narratives. While it may be acknowledged as folklore, documenting such narratives contributes to the broader understanding of regional legends and their cultural significance. Moreover, although sources may vary in reliability, the presence of differing accounts underscores the diversity of perspectives and interpretations within historical discourse. As such, maintaining a distinct page for Thajuddin allows for a nuanced examination of this figure and his alleged encounter, enriching the discourse surrounding Kerala's historical and cultural landscape. The article in Legend of Cheraman Perumals does not cover this Legend in detail. DonParlo ( talk) 23:43, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- //Thajuddin, who purportedly met Muhammad, serves to provide a focused platform for exploring this aspect of Kerala's history and its cultural narratives// Can you give reliable source for such claim? --
Antan
O
15:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
- ^ O. Loth, Arabic Manuscripts in the Library of the India Office (London: Secretary of State of India, 1877), no. 1044.
- ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g Y. Friedmann, "Qissat Shakarwati Farmad: A Tradition Concerning the Introduction of Islam to Malabar", Israel Oriental Studies 5 (1975), 239-241.
- ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f Prange, Sebastian R. Monsoon Islam: Trade and Faith on the Medieval Malabar Coast. Cambridge University Press, 2018. 95-98.
- ^ Y. Friedmann, "Qissat Shakarwati Farmad: A Tradition Concerning the Introduction of Islam to Malabar", Israel Oriental Studies 5 (1975), 239-241.
- ^ H. H. Wilson, Mackenzie Collection. A descriptive catalogue of the Oriental manuscripts and other articles illustrative of the literature, history, statistics and antiquities of the south of India (Calcutta, 1828), II, appendix, p. XCV.
- ^ Prange, Sebastian R. Monsoon Islam: Trade and Faith on the Medieval Malabar Coast. Cambridge University Press, 2018. 98. DonParlo ( talk) 20:29, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.scribd.com/document/519315791/Qissat-Shakarwati-Farmad-a-Tradition-Con DonParlo ( talk) 20:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting for clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 10:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)If you look at this objectively this wiki page does not do that much significant to anything. So what's the point of deleting it. I think people should keep this page. Is it gives a deeper insight into the legend. ஸ்டீவன் ஸ்கால் ( talk) 15:19, 7 February 2024 (UTC)WP:SOCKSTRIKE -- Blablubbs ( talk) 02:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. To begin with the subject of the page Thajuddin, there is no reference that it was formerly called Tamil King Cheraman Perumal. More so, there are contentious websites and some references that are just scraps as if someone did a Google search to find a word and used it as a testimony for a much larger paragraph. I find it impossible to verify the paragraphs from the references given. RangersRus ( talk) 22:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to
Legend of Cheraman Perumals. The legend of the introduction of Islam to India is certainly notable, but the present article presents this legend as fact. The
Legend of Cheraman Perumals article can be expanded with the specific events in the legend (the vision of the split moon and the pilgrimage to Mecca) if Indian historiographic sources are sufficient to verify that this is, in fact, part of the known legend.
WikiDan61
ChatMe!
ReadMe!!
16:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Merge would be good, but need to cleanup per RS. Antan O 19:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
| Sock !votes -- Blablubbs ( talk) 02:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
- Comment: As per nomination and heavy involvements of SOCKS -- ~AntanO4task ( talk) 07:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Last relisting did not establish any clear consensus, but only few sock votes. Relisting again for clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 05:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 02:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: This is a confusing mess. The discussion above is all over the place, the sourcing seems odd. TNT is probably best. Could draft it, but we'd need to start from zero again. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Keep and Edit: People should keep the wiki page of Thajuddin even if it is poorly sourced because it provides a starting point for further research and discussion, potentially leading to the improvement of the page's quality over time. According to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, "Information provided in an article must be verifiable and cited to reliable sources, even if it is not actually footnoted in the article." This means that while poorly sourced information should be improved, the existence of the page itself is justified as long as efforts are made to enhance its reliability and accuracy.
தமிழ் வீரன் ஜைத் (
talk)
13:31, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sending it to draft would better suit what you're describing. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- You ID seems new and your edit patterns are similar as per above socks.
Antan
O
19:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am from India I use a VPN it sends me to random places I don't edit much as I just started this account I only fix spelling errors usually. தமிழ் வீரன் ஜைத் ( talk) 03:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Keep Kings area always notable, and a first king to embrace a religion is absolutely notable. The article needs work for sure, but that doesn't justify deletion.DarmaniLink ( talk) 18:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC)- I think you didn't see the duplicate page that already exist with primary name. Antan O 19:53, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.