- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Randykitty ( talk) 17:16, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
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- Su fei-erh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I don't know who created this entry, but this entry is full of mistakes! First, you can't find any information about Su-Fei-Erh or 苏菲尔 on Chinese Internet, whether on simplified Chinese or traditional Chinese Internet. So I tried to search from the official history book of Song Dynasty called History of Song which was compiled under the direction of First Minister Toqto'a and Prime Minister Alutu. Guess what I have found? NOT ANY INFORMATION ABOUT SO CALLED SU FEI-ERH IS RECORDED IN THIS BOOK! Therefore , I continued to read this entry, tried to find more information. And I've found that more mistakes than I've expected!
- First, the article says:"
The Song Dynasty hired Muslim warriors from Bukhara to fight against Khitan nomads. 5,300 Muslim men from Bukhara were encouraged and invited to move to China in 1070 by the Song emperor Shenzong to help battle the Liao empire in the northeast and repopulate areas ravaged by fighting.[2] The emperor hired these men as mercenaries in his campaign against the Liao empire. Later on these men were settled between the Sung capital of Kaifeng and Yenching (modern day Beijing). China's northern and northeastern provinces were settled by Muslims in 1080 when 10,000 more Muslims were invited into China.
"- Don't you know that Song Dynasty never regained The Sixteen Prefectures, which contained nowadays Beijing and nearby areas? All these areas we're filled by Liao Dynasty that times.
- Secondly, "
Many of Su fei-erh's descendants have wielded political power and prestige from the 12th century to the 19th century. One of the sons of Su fei-erh was appointed governor of Shandong while a grandson called Shams Shah was given the title of "Protector of the Tatars". Kamal al-Din, a great grandson, was made commander-in-chief of the army under Emperor Gaozong. In turn, Kamal's son Mahmud served as governor of Yunnan and Shaanxi. Further descendants were also appointed into high positions within the Song dynasty.
"- Well well well, Song dynasty was ended in 1279 BCE. And nowadays Yunnan was an independent country called Dali, not rulled by Song dynasty, nowaday's Shannxi Province was belonged to Yongxingjun Circuit, Qinfeng Circuit and Jingxinan Circuit. Also Emporer Gaozong never had a commender-in-chief called Kamal al-Din(Who want to be a commender-in-chief under Emporer Gaozong?).
All the articles this page has cited have no relation with so called Su Fei-Erh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Axel Shen ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 December 26. — cyberbot I Talk to my owner:Online 16:56, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility, China, and Central Asia. Shellwood ( talk) 17:12, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. – Scyrme ( talk) 22:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - I looked at the first reference in the article, a book entitled Islam in China by James Frankel. It mentions Su fei-erh under the romanisation Su Fei'er (蘇菲爾); the same source also refers to him by the name Sayyid Safar and describes him as a "Bukharan nobleman" which fits with the article's lead which describes him as a "Muslim Bukharan Emir". I don't have access to the whole book, but the snippet preview on Google Books mentions "5,300 Arabs from the Central Asian city of Bukhara", which lines up with what is written at the start of the "Life" section of the article. (Although "Muslim men" may need to be amended to "Arabs"; the article uses a different reference for that line, so perhaps not.)
- I also took a quick look at Islam in China: Religion, Ethnicity, Culture, and Politics by Raphael Israeli, the third reference in the article. It mentions him as "Amir Sayyid So-fei-er of Bukhara". It likewise seems to follow what's in the article, and the references actually quote this source.
- The sixth reference, First encyclopaedia of Islam, also quotes its source, and if that quote is correct then the book mentions him as Su fei-erh, which is the romanisation used in the article title.
- I suspect any factual errors can be amended by verifying the references given and amending the text according to what is written therein. It's fairly evident that the proposed deletion is mistaken, and that references discussing this subject do in-fact exist and are used in the article. Deletion is almost certainly excessive. (I doubt this is a case of
WP:TNT.) –
Scyrme (
talk)
22:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've amended the text of the article following the reference given (following the quoted text) in order to clarify that Yanjing (Yenching) was not Song territory, thereby addressing the first dispute raised by Axel Shen. – Scyrme ( talk) 18:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've moved my further findings to Talk:Su fei-erh § Factual accuracy and sources to avoid clogging up discussion here. These findings include information regarding Chinese-language sources. (If anyone finding this is fluent in Chinese and are interested in amending the article, I'd appreciate if they would take a look.) – Scyrme ( talk) 00:01, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- • Keep per Scyrme's comments. On the text on James Frankel's book I can provide relevant excerpts. Page 42 says "In 1070, during the reign of Emperor Shenzong, (r. 1067-85), a group of 5,300 Arabs from the Central Asian city of Bukhara came to the imperial court at Kaifeng. Their leader was the Bukaharan nobleman Sayyid Safar (known in Chinese as Su Fei'er (蘇菲爾)..." It goes on to mention that Safar arrived during a period of conflict between the Song and the Liao. Shenzong allowed Safar and his group to settle near the border of Liao and Song to act as a pro-Song buffer zone. The text also says "The emperor appointed Safar Marquis of Yining 伊寧 (in present-day Xinjiang)."
- As for Safar's descendants, page 43 elaborates that "Safar's descendants rose to prominence in the twelfth century and continued to grow in power and prestige in all the way through the nineteenth century." The text mentions some notable personalities by stating "One of Safar's sons was made governor of Shandong province. His grandson, Shams Shāh, was given the title of 'Protector of the Tatars' while his great grandson, Kamāl al-Dīn, was appointed commander-in-chief of the Chinese army under the tenth Song emperor, Gaozong (r. 1127-62). Kamāl al-Dīn's son, Mahmūd, served as governor of Yunnan and later Shaanxi province. His sons and grandsons were also honoured with influential positions in the Song state."
- This article is definitely worth keeping and much of the content is reliably sourced but double-checking would be a great idea. SlackingViceroy ( talk) 19:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, the sources are sufficient to pass WP:GNG. Suonii180 ( talk) 01:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Randykitty ( talk) 17:16, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Su fei-erh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I don't know who created this entry, but this entry is full of mistakes! First, you can't find any information about Su-Fei-Erh or 苏菲尔 on Chinese Internet, whether on simplified Chinese or traditional Chinese Internet. So I tried to search from the official history book of Song Dynasty called History of Song which was compiled under the direction of First Minister Toqto'a and Prime Minister Alutu. Guess what I have found? NOT ANY INFORMATION ABOUT SO CALLED SU FEI-ERH IS RECORDED IN THIS BOOK! Therefore , I continued to read this entry, tried to find more information. And I've found that more mistakes than I've expected!
- First, the article says:"
The Song Dynasty hired Muslim warriors from Bukhara to fight against Khitan nomads. 5,300 Muslim men from Bukhara were encouraged and invited to move to China in 1070 by the Song emperor Shenzong to help battle the Liao empire in the northeast and repopulate areas ravaged by fighting.[2] The emperor hired these men as mercenaries in his campaign against the Liao empire. Later on these men were settled between the Sung capital of Kaifeng and Yenching (modern day Beijing). China's northern and northeastern provinces were settled by Muslims in 1080 when 10,000 more Muslims were invited into China.
"- Don't you know that Song Dynasty never regained The Sixteen Prefectures, which contained nowadays Beijing and nearby areas? All these areas we're filled by Liao Dynasty that times.
- Secondly, "
Many of Su fei-erh's descendants have wielded political power and prestige from the 12th century to the 19th century. One of the sons of Su fei-erh was appointed governor of Shandong while a grandson called Shams Shah was given the title of "Protector of the Tatars". Kamal al-Din, a great grandson, was made commander-in-chief of the army under Emperor Gaozong. In turn, Kamal's son Mahmud served as governor of Yunnan and Shaanxi. Further descendants were also appointed into high positions within the Song dynasty.
"- Well well well, Song dynasty was ended in 1279 BCE. And nowadays Yunnan was an independent country called Dali, not rulled by Song dynasty, nowaday's Shannxi Province was belonged to Yongxingjun Circuit, Qinfeng Circuit and Jingxinan Circuit. Also Emporer Gaozong never had a commender-in-chief called Kamal al-Din(Who want to be a commender-in-chief under Emporer Gaozong?).
All the articles this page has cited have no relation with so called Su Fei-Erh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Axel Shen ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 December 26. — cyberbot I Talk to my owner:Online 16:56, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility, China, and Central Asia. Shellwood ( talk) 17:12, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. – Scyrme ( talk) 22:31, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - I looked at the first reference in the article, a book entitled Islam in China by James Frankel. It mentions Su fei-erh under the romanisation Su Fei'er (蘇菲爾); the same source also refers to him by the name Sayyid Safar and describes him as a "Bukharan nobleman" which fits with the article's lead which describes him as a "Muslim Bukharan Emir". I don't have access to the whole book, but the snippet preview on Google Books mentions "5,300 Arabs from the Central Asian city of Bukhara", which lines up with what is written at the start of the "Life" section of the article. (Although "Muslim men" may need to be amended to "Arabs"; the article uses a different reference for that line, so perhaps not.)
- I also took a quick look at Islam in China: Religion, Ethnicity, Culture, and Politics by Raphael Israeli, the third reference in the article. It mentions him as "Amir Sayyid So-fei-er of Bukhara". It likewise seems to follow what's in the article, and the references actually quote this source.
- The sixth reference, First encyclopaedia of Islam, also quotes its source, and if that quote is correct then the book mentions him as Su fei-erh, which is the romanisation used in the article title.
- I suspect any factual errors can be amended by verifying the references given and amending the text according to what is written therein. It's fairly evident that the proposed deletion is mistaken, and that references discussing this subject do in-fact exist and are used in the article. Deletion is almost certainly excessive. (I doubt this is a case of
WP:TNT.) –
Scyrme (
talk)
22:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've amended the text of the article following the reference given (following the quoted text) in order to clarify that Yanjing (Yenching) was not Song territory, thereby addressing the first dispute raised by Axel Shen. – Scyrme ( talk) 18:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- I've moved my further findings to Talk:Su fei-erh § Factual accuracy and sources to avoid clogging up discussion here. These findings include information regarding Chinese-language sources. (If anyone finding this is fluent in Chinese and are interested in amending the article, I'd appreciate if they would take a look.) – Scyrme ( talk) 00:01, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- • Keep per Scyrme's comments. On the text on James Frankel's book I can provide relevant excerpts. Page 42 says "In 1070, during the reign of Emperor Shenzong, (r. 1067-85), a group of 5,300 Arabs from the Central Asian city of Bukhara came to the imperial court at Kaifeng. Their leader was the Bukaharan nobleman Sayyid Safar (known in Chinese as Su Fei'er (蘇菲爾)..." It goes on to mention that Safar arrived during a period of conflict between the Song and the Liao. Shenzong allowed Safar and his group to settle near the border of Liao and Song to act as a pro-Song buffer zone. The text also says "The emperor appointed Safar Marquis of Yining 伊寧 (in present-day Xinjiang)."
- As for Safar's descendants, page 43 elaborates that "Safar's descendants rose to prominence in the twelfth century and continued to grow in power and prestige in all the way through the nineteenth century." The text mentions some notable personalities by stating "One of Safar's sons was made governor of Shandong province. His grandson, Shams Shāh, was given the title of 'Protector of the Tatars' while his great grandson, Kamāl al-Dīn, was appointed commander-in-chief of the Chinese army under the tenth Song emperor, Gaozong (r. 1127-62). Kamāl al-Dīn's son, Mahmūd, served as governor of Yunnan and later Shaanxi province. His sons and grandsons were also honoured with influential positions in the Song state."
- This article is definitely worth keeping and much of the content is reliably sourced but double-checking would be a great idea. SlackingViceroy ( talk) 19:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, the sources are sufficient to pass WP:GNG. Suonii180 ( talk) 01:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.