The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. A consensus is not going to emerge here to delete the article. However, there isn't a clear consensus to keep this either. What I would suggest rather than a renom, since this was so well attended, is to consider whether improvement is possible so that a firmer consensus to retain is possible, or whether there's a viable AtD. None of which require a relist, so closing. StarMississippi 12:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
assume good faith on the part of others and to
sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
The
last nomination for this article was not descriptive and the nominator failed to demonstrate a lack of notability. In the time since this article has been put into mainspace, there has been no indication that Skibidi Toilet is notable despite receiving coverage from sources that are ambiguous in reliability. Sources such as Lifehacker and Distractify may be acceptable for expanding on an article that has already been deemed notable, but the only sources that seem to bear weight are For The Win—a publication that is likely not held to the same standards as its parent USA Today—and Kotaku.
Keep many of these sources you list other than the reliable ones such the ones on Yahoo News have no consensus. That doesn't mean we should delete the article for that reason. Aside from sources, the subject is absolutely notable as noted on previous consensus, such as the YouTube channel having 11 billion views and 30 million subscribers. Note that nominator has previously nominated articles which obviously meet
WP:GNG such as
Linus Sebastian. —Panamitsu(talk) 06:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Basing an article on ambiguous sources is reckless. Well-established sources determine notability, not marginally reliable or dubious ones. YouTube views and subscribers are irrelevant here, as are my previous deletion requests. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 06:35, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator, your preliminary check does not seem to have been really thorough, so would you consider withdrawing? Thank you.-
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I suggest you wisen up before resorting to personal attacks before you get more than you bargained for. I covered a selection of sources, including Newsweek. The additional sources you have found are neither reliable nor unreliable and cannot be used to assess notability. The question is not if there are sources for this topic but if they can determine notability. If The New York Times and The Washington Post were to have full articles on Skibidi Toilet, this article would be justifiably acceptable for mainspace. Sources that have not been put up to scrutiny may be reliable. The use of unheard of sources is a signal that editors are scraping the bottom of an empty barrel. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"Personal attacks"? "Wisen up"? "Before you get more than what you bargained for"?!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you sure this is the appropriate reply to my comment?... yes you did mention Newsweek in general above in your selection of sources. But if you haven't heard of the other newspapers or websites mentioned above, well, look them up, maybe. No furrher comment. -
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 15:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I did take the due diligence but I cannot assess whether they're suitable here. The other sources you mention are not present at
WP:RSP. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The writer of the Newsweek article came from the Daily Mail, which we all know is not really of the greatest reliability. Newsweek sources after 2013 aren't reliable either. I suggest you actually check the reliability of the sources you use before you use them. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete : Boston Globe is an editorial cartoon, the USA Today article is a question and answer segment about the meme, nothing extensive. There is no decent sourcing.
Oaktree b (
talk) 13:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The La Gaceta is about the best sourcing there is, rest are not useable, trivial coverage of this thing.
Oaktree b (
talk) 13:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
......Have you opened the Dazed and Comercio articles by any chance? Not extensive, how? -
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, one is a question and answer segment. Second is a half-pager with more space for photos than text. I'd give the question and answer maybe a quarter RS validity, the other one is small, so like half a source. (Meaning if I took the time to make a source table, you'd get trivial coverage for both of them, which help notability, but alone aren't enough). Together we might be able to combine them as counting for one decent source, with the yahoo news feature, it's almost at notability. I'd still like to see one more strong source before changing the !vote.
Oaktree b (
talk) 13:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
"Weak keep Business Insider published an article
[1], which is fine. That's enough sources. Side note: What the heck is this thing and why? I feel like "old man yelling at cloud" from the Simpsons...
Oaktree b (
talk) 14:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't have thought adding anything was necessary, especially as the last Afd had already established notability and not so long ago (!), but here we go:
The thiswastv source doesn't seem reliable at all, it just looks like a tabloid, and the author is known for making opinion pieces.
The writer from the passionfru.it source came from KnowYourMeme, which is an
unreliable source.
The L'adn, Watson and Indy100 sources also seem unreliable, with Indy100 inventing a new term that has never been used by anyone else.
The Stealthoptional article is in the "Reviews" category.
Filmdaily.co and Tiny Beans should immediately be excluded since they're literally just opinion.
So basically the only source you gave that seems reliable is the
HITC source. And even then you said that the last AfD established notability, which is not true because the last AfD was of a very, very low quality, which is why this even got renominated in the first place. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not claiming that these sources are reliable, but sources can't unreliable because authors are
guilty by association. Indy100 is owned by The Independent and journalists write the news pieces. Skibidi Toilet Syndrome is a genuine
internet meme.
Catalk to me! 01:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The link you sent to Skibidi Toilet Syndrome is under review by KnowYourMeme.
Also, those sources don't demonstrate notability by themselves, we need a better source from a more reputable and reliable source or ideally more of them so we know Skibidi Toilet is actually notable.
Weak Keep I was completing a source assessment when I realized many of the sources might meet the GNG requirements. Also, Dexerto is still TBD per
this RfC. Some of the additional sources provided by Mushy Yank do not meet reliability standards, but there's likely enough where this meme can have its own page.
Conyo14 (
talk) 17:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep, as per Conyo14. I think there's just enough reliable coverage for this to stay.
Moonreach (
talk) 18:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Weaker Keep, the coverage is here. Unsure on article quality but we can always
WP:TNT. InvadingInvader (
userpage,
talk) 20:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep, per above and previous AfD discussion
Brachy08(Talk) 00:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The previous AfD discussion didn't even show how Skibidi Toilet was unreliable. This one does. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
There is enough coverage for the article to stay. Needs improvement though.
Brachy08(Talk) 22:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
For now, keep and tag it with requiring additional sources. I would also take drafitication as an alternative.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
To elaborate, it has sigcov from several sources.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or draftify per nom. Sourcing is not adequate and the previous AfD didn't even cover anything and demonstrate its unreliability. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 06:59, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
This article was also never accepted through AfC even though it used to be a draft, it was actually denied twice, first by
KylieTastic then again by
Hey man im josh, yet it was moved to mainspace by
Ca without a review. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:40, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Context: The previous two declines was because the draft had 0 independent sourcing. AfC is only meant to determine whether an article is more than 1/2 likely to survive an AfD. As a reviewer, I expanded the draft with the sources Vortex added, and decided that it is likelt to survive AfD.
Catalk to me! 07:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I have added an argument to delete this article. The article looks terrible and there is so many poor sources.
2001:448A:11A6:1B76:D15B:60DD:5E62:AA13 (
talk) 12:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. Although the article is quite a mess currently, that does not mean there aren't well established sources out there that do establish its notability. Additionally, if we're going to hold the sources without consensus on such a high pedestal for this article, we need to look back at the numerous - and I mean numerous, amounts of not even just past internet meme-related articles, but also internet culture-related articles in general, that are almost entirely reliant on those types of sources. This is a good representation of
Generation Alpha's entrance into internet culture and I don't see it not worth being kept as an article.
B3251 (
talk) 04:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Whether or not this is Generation Alpha's first foray into Internet culture is irrelevant. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Agreed, !votes in AfD should be primarily based on policies, notability, and source assessments.
Conyo14 (
talk) 16:17, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Please keep in mind that was just a personal opinion and I’m not expecting agreement. That doesn’t disregard the fact that so many internet culture-related articles with even less notability are heavily reliant on sources with no consensus. As I stated previously: if we're going to hold this article on such a high pedestal in source reliability, we must go forward with removing other articles/major content from articles such as
ai_sponge,
Griddy (dance), most entries on
List of Generation Z slang, and a major amount of content from numerous modern-day content creators.
B3251 (
talk) 18:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
This is not a double standard. The expectation of a well-sourced article has been everpresent since the notability guideline was established. I discovered this article through repeated external discussions. The work required to find the major amount of content you refer to, for instance, would be insurmountable for someone outside of the zeitgeist. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 18:18, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
If you think there are "well established sources", an AfD is where you prove it. Can't disprove a false negative... or whatever the phrase is.
SWinxy (
talk) 21:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I agree, the series is getting more popular.
In a nutcheel (
talk) 13:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. This is not notable at all. What does this means? This is such a big catastrophic mess that I have included in my life. There are many poor sources in this article.
2001:448A:11A6:1B76:D15B:60DD:5E62:AA13 (
talk) 12:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The deletion of an article is not determined by the mere existence of unreliable sources or its quality; it's determined by the lack of independent reliable sources covering it in detail. See
WP:RUBBISH and the
general notability guideline.
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 14:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep. Cartoon Brew is a publication with a good reputation in the animation industry (see Jpcase's arguments in
this discussion); El Comerciois considered a newspaper of record of Peru; Excélsior is the second oldest newspaper of Mexico City and
has been recommended by the BBC as an "established daily" newspaper; and El Español was created by a former director of a Spanish newspaper of record, El Mundo. All of them have covered it in detail, though Excelsior's coverage is a bit less satisfying.
[2][3][4][5][6] Together with Kotaku, coverage seems enough to meet
GNG, though barely. Note that, although Dexerto does not contribute to the notability requirement, it can be cited in a case-by-case basis except for
BLP statements per
this recent discussion, so it might be fine to cite
this interview but not
this article.
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 14:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Your assessment agrees with mine. The one thing I worried about was independence since they all embed the video or Twitter in them.
Conyo14 (
talk) 20:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Important one thing I thinking about is deletion. This article would be deleted on October 4, 2023. Or better to be kept or deleted? What's your choice?
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A (
talk) 14:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or at least draftify. I feel like there's enough sources here to solidify its notability, unreliable sources aside. Though, the article definitely could do with a rewrite of sorts. Jurtatalk 15:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or draftify. This video series' quick boom in popularity worldwide is an amazing feat that at least brought attention from reliable news sources as put out on above, though not much for now. But I'm good with this article being draftified as RS's should be considered because not everything that quickly became popular on worldwide Internet would gain attention from such sources,
Technoblade being a great example on this.
MarioJump83 (
talk) 20:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or draftify. As a semi-popular meme, Wikipedia is not enough to load semi-popular meme pages, especially for Skibidi Toilet. Should we have another semi-popular memes like Battle for Dream Island, In the Beninging or Your Majesty, There's a Second Bus Coming? I feel so that Skibidi Toilet is not a fabulous trend today.
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A (
talk) 15:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I can absolutely explain this. A YouTube video about a Half-Life 2 animation by a semi-popular
Roblox YouTuber making overly dramatized videos about specific topics (Yes, I know that Parlo makes his content like that, he isn't really considered a notable YouTuber in the Roblox community) doesn't establish notability at all. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
And YouTube itself doesn't establish notability either, especially Parlo or other drama YouTube channels. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I’m not using it as a source, given the overdramaticisation Parlo does to his videos. If someone wants to bring him up as a source, I’d vote deprecate. But it is proof it is not merely semi-popular, given the fanbase.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I’m not using YT to establish notability. However, as shown in the article, Skibidi Toilet has more non-wiki sources than say, for example, Battle for Dream Island.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Based on your IP signature and the Geolocate link in your "User contributions" page, it seems that your account was created next to, if not in the same location as the other unregistered account I've replied above. So if you want to ammend your previous comment, then edit it (by putting the text you remove between <del> and </del>) or reply to it with clarification; please don't post new bulleted lines with bolded recommendations per
WP:DISCUSSAFD: "You can explain your earlier recommendation in response to others but do not repeat a bolded recommendation on a new bulleted line."
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 08:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I live in Tapaktuan, South Aceh Regency, Aceh, Indonesia. But my geolocate location is located in Jakarta, Indonesia, not Tapaktuan.
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A (
talk) 08:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep I can see why some people would think that the article is pretty weakly sourced. But
Not Just Bikes, a YouTuber with way less subscribers passed
WP:GNG
Keep Sources are enough to pass GNG, such as Kotaku and Cartoon Brew.
Skyshiftertalk 14:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep as per all reasons above. This is by now proven to be not a "normal" meme, but a more influential cultural phenomenon.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 05:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
According to Geolocate, this IP address is located in the same exact location as
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A and
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:A1EC:400E:A8F5:F38B, who both have already given their bolded recommendations. Either this is a case of individual computers being located around the same exact proximity of a server, or this is a case of
WP:LOUTSOCK. Nope. My bad, this is probably a dynamic IP. Anyhow, as ObserveOwl has already said, please amend your previous statement instead of making new ones, thanks! Jurtatalk 08:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
*Keep or Redirect to
List of Internet phenomena. Skibidi toilet has already met
WP:GNG and has enough
SIGCOV for it to not be deleted. The article does meet GNG and the
previous AfD was closed as a speedy keep. Checking Google through the above links also indicates through many news sources that Skibidi Toilet is being popular. -- Wesoree(
talk·
contribs) 14:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or draftify and redirect to
List of Internet phenomena per nom. None of the sources are reliable, meet
WP:RS and this article has room for improvement. This AfD compared to the
previous AfD is actually accurate (which changed my mind). The article does not meet
WP:GNG but is messy and not ready for being an article, and also fails
WP:SIGCOV. -- Wesoree(
talk·
contribs) 14:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
You cannot satisfy GNG without first satisfying SIGCOV. They go hand to hand.
Catalk to me! 11:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or Redirect to
List of Internet phenomena per nom. This is such a terribly sourced articles with poor statements with a messy improvements. The article is also have blatant sources without passing
WP:GNG. Imagine Wikipedia have one article with terrible sources. Although this meme is very popular at all, but delete it anyway.
2001:448A:11A3:16EA:65D5:D7BB:91A9:5D03 (
talk) 14:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay this is definitely the same person with a dynamic IP. Closer, please disregard this any of the IP's !votes.
Conyo14 (
talk) 16:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or Draftify. This subject in my eyes is about 50/50 on meeting GNG, but if it did meet GNG, this is where
WP:SUSTAINED comes into play. I strongly believe all notability on this meme is routine coverage on the newest Internet craze and I have my doubts anything will come of it in the future. Internet memes come and go, and Skibidi Toilet is already starting to fade out. The sources here are likely what it could stay with for as long as the article exists. With that in mind, I believe that this article will not a) serve a purpose and/or b) meet SUSTAINED.
NegativeMP1 16:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)reply
What counts as a "sufficiently significant amount of time"? Kotaku and Vandal (El Español) made articles about it in July, and three of the Spanish-language sources I've mentioned above were released in September, so the series technically attracted attention over two months. The guideline says "Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability" (emphasis added), so that's another ambiguity. Per
WP:NOTTEMPORARY, "it does not need to have ongoing coverage". The news don't appear to cover Skibidi Toilet in the context of any event, other than for being popular for some months.
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 08:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
It is far from fading out. Skibidi Toilet videos are still getting 30-40M views on average and the view count remains stable. I think it will be sustained for a long time(it has already been sustained for 8 months).
BitByte10 (
talk) 04:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or draftify. The trend will die down in a few months, as is with most memes. Only the ones that are notable enough should have a Wikipedia article.
Chicken4War (
talk) 11:21, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguilltalk 11:43, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or Redirect to
List of Internet phenomena. doesn't seem like it will have much lasting effect, but it just barely has enough sources to have
SIGCOV. i'm on the fence with this one.
DrowssapSMM (
say hello) 12:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Ungh, I hope it's not studied by future internet historians. Then again, Beavis and Butthead was looked at though the same lens... Just why people?
Oaktree b (
talk) 14:06, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Trends exist my man. Whether we abide by them or choose to ignore, you cannot disagree that at some point in history it was popular.
Conyo14 (
talk) 16:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. Sources in article and discussed in this direction are sufficient to meet
WP:GNG. This has already gotten sustained coverage for more than half a year, so it's more than just a truly transient meme. --
Patar knight - chat/contributions 15:14, 9 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep This is a truly borderline article, but I think there is just enough to tip the scales in favor of a keep vote. As demonstrated by ObserveOwl, several of the sources covering Skibidi Toilet are reasonably reliable. Also, while I would never use the Daily Dot as a source for political content, I think it is an acceptable source for non-controversial internet phenomenon per
WP: DAILYDOT/my own experience with the source. Regarding sustained coverage, I think a few months of coverage is fine for a series of YouTube shorts. I don’t find this length of coverage to be especially persuasive, but its long enough not to drop a “delete per WP:NOTNEWS.” Honestly, I think keeping this and merging the article into the List of Internet Phenomena article are both perfectly reasonable outcomes, although I’m slightly more inclined to keep for the previously listed reasons.
Spirit of Eagle (
talk)
Weak Keep I'll admit. I have never watched one of these videos, and I
probably never will. But that's neither here nor there. The sourcing is borderline and leans towards being adequate. It's true that many of the sources the article had in it at the time it was nominated had
no consensus on their reliability. I wouldn't say that's a strong enough case for deletion on its own, but it does at least put into question whether or not the article really does pass GNG. However, during the course of this discussion, multiple editors have found additional sources that give more credibility to the idea that this topic passes GNG after all. Some of the counterarguments to these additional sources were less than convincing. With respect to Jalapeño, we do not guilt-by-association sources by tracking down the previous writing gigs of the author and checking to see if they had ever worked for an unreliable outlet, deeming all future works unreliable if they have. That's not how that works. Vanilla Wizard 💙 11:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete I genuinely think we need stricter guidelines for pages for memes. Events can carry notability, but that's often demonstrable in a long standing cultural status that affects things in the long term. As it stands, this is hardly distinguishable from a KnowYourMeme article.
Paragon Deku (
talk) 23:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep I don’t like Skibidi Toilet I think it’s grown to be pretty annoying but it’s impossible to deny that it is in fact huge and has somehow managed to reach the mainstream and is clearly receiving significant media coverage so I believe the page should be allowed to stay as it has managed to become a very popular web series.
InternetEnigma (
talk) 10:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. A consensus is not going to emerge here to delete the article. However, there isn't a clear consensus to keep this either. What I would suggest rather than a renom, since this was so well attended, is to consider whether improvement is possible so that a firmer consensus to retain is possible, or whether there's a viable AtD. None of which require a relist, so closing. StarMississippi 12:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)reply
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
assume good faith on the part of others and to
sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
The
last nomination for this article was not descriptive and the nominator failed to demonstrate a lack of notability. In the time since this article has been put into mainspace, there has been no indication that Skibidi Toilet is notable despite receiving coverage from sources that are ambiguous in reliability. Sources such as Lifehacker and Distractify may be acceptable for expanding on an article that has already been deemed notable, but the only sources that seem to bear weight are For The Win—a publication that is likely not held to the same standards as its parent USA Today—and Kotaku.
Keep many of these sources you list other than the reliable ones such the ones on Yahoo News have no consensus. That doesn't mean we should delete the article for that reason. Aside from sources, the subject is absolutely notable as noted on previous consensus, such as the YouTube channel having 11 billion views and 30 million subscribers. Note that nominator has previously nominated articles which obviously meet
WP:GNG such as
Linus Sebastian. —Panamitsu(talk) 06:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Basing an article on ambiguous sources is reckless. Well-established sources determine notability, not marginally reliable or dubious ones. YouTube views and subscribers are irrelevant here, as are my previous deletion requests. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 06:35, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Nominator, your preliminary check does not seem to have been really thorough, so would you consider withdrawing? Thank you.-
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I suggest you wisen up before resorting to personal attacks before you get more than you bargained for. I covered a selection of sources, including Newsweek. The additional sources you have found are neither reliable nor unreliable and cannot be used to assess notability. The question is not if there are sources for this topic but if they can determine notability. If The New York Times and The Washington Post were to have full articles on Skibidi Toilet, this article would be justifiably acceptable for mainspace. Sources that have not been put up to scrutiny may be reliable. The use of unheard of sources is a signal that editors are scraping the bottom of an empty barrel. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"Personal attacks"? "Wisen up"? "Before you get more than what you bargained for"?!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you sure this is the appropriate reply to my comment?... yes you did mention Newsweek in general above in your selection of sources. But if you haven't heard of the other newspapers or websites mentioned above, well, look them up, maybe. No furrher comment. -
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 15:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I did take the due diligence but I cannot assess whether they're suitable here. The other sources you mention are not present at
WP:RSP. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The writer of the Newsweek article came from the Daily Mail, which we all know is not really of the greatest reliability. Newsweek sources after 2013 aren't reliable either. I suggest you actually check the reliability of the sources you use before you use them. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete : Boston Globe is an editorial cartoon, the USA Today article is a question and answer segment about the meme, nothing extensive. There is no decent sourcing.
Oaktree b (
talk) 13:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The La Gaceta is about the best sourcing there is, rest are not useable, trivial coverage of this thing.
Oaktree b (
talk) 13:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
......Have you opened the Dazed and Comercio articles by any chance? Not extensive, how? -
My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, one is a question and answer segment. Second is a half-pager with more space for photos than text. I'd give the question and answer maybe a quarter RS validity, the other one is small, so like half a source. (Meaning if I took the time to make a source table, you'd get trivial coverage for both of them, which help notability, but alone aren't enough). Together we might be able to combine them as counting for one decent source, with the yahoo news feature, it's almost at notability. I'd still like to see one more strong source before changing the !vote.
Oaktree b (
talk) 13:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
"Weak keep Business Insider published an article
[1], which is fine. That's enough sources. Side note: What the heck is this thing and why? I feel like "old man yelling at cloud" from the Simpsons...
Oaktree b (
talk) 14:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't have thought adding anything was necessary, especially as the last Afd had already established notability and not so long ago (!), but here we go:
The thiswastv source doesn't seem reliable at all, it just looks like a tabloid, and the author is known for making opinion pieces.
The writer from the passionfru.it source came from KnowYourMeme, which is an
unreliable source.
The L'adn, Watson and Indy100 sources also seem unreliable, with Indy100 inventing a new term that has never been used by anyone else.
The Stealthoptional article is in the "Reviews" category.
Filmdaily.co and Tiny Beans should immediately be excluded since they're literally just opinion.
So basically the only source you gave that seems reliable is the
HITC source. And even then you said that the last AfD established notability, which is not true because the last AfD was of a very, very low quality, which is why this even got renominated in the first place. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not claiming that these sources are reliable, but sources can't unreliable because authors are
guilty by association. Indy100 is owned by The Independent and journalists write the news pieces. Skibidi Toilet Syndrome is a genuine
internet meme.
Catalk to me! 01:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The link you sent to Skibidi Toilet Syndrome is under review by KnowYourMeme.
Also, those sources don't demonstrate notability by themselves, we need a better source from a more reputable and reliable source or ideally more of them so we know Skibidi Toilet is actually notable.
Weak Keep I was completing a source assessment when I realized many of the sources might meet the GNG requirements. Also, Dexerto is still TBD per
this RfC. Some of the additional sources provided by Mushy Yank do not meet reliability standards, but there's likely enough where this meme can have its own page.
Conyo14 (
talk) 17:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep, as per Conyo14. I think there's just enough reliable coverage for this to stay.
Moonreach (
talk) 18:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Weaker Keep, the coverage is here. Unsure on article quality but we can always
WP:TNT. InvadingInvader (
userpage,
talk) 20:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep, per above and previous AfD discussion
Brachy08(Talk) 00:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The previous AfD discussion didn't even show how Skibidi Toilet was unreliable. This one does. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
There is enough coverage for the article to stay. Needs improvement though.
Brachy08(Talk) 22:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
For now, keep and tag it with requiring additional sources. I would also take drafitication as an alternative.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
To elaborate, it has sigcov from several sources.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or draftify per nom. Sourcing is not adequate and the previous AfD didn't even cover anything and demonstrate its unreliability. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 06:59, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
This article was also never accepted through AfC even though it used to be a draft, it was actually denied twice, first by
KylieTastic then again by
Hey man im josh, yet it was moved to mainspace by
Ca without a review. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:40, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Context: The previous two declines was because the draft had 0 independent sourcing. AfC is only meant to determine whether an article is more than 1/2 likely to survive an AfD. As a reviewer, I expanded the draft with the sources Vortex added, and decided that it is likelt to survive AfD.
Catalk to me! 07:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I have added an argument to delete this article. The article looks terrible and there is so many poor sources.
2001:448A:11A6:1B76:D15B:60DD:5E62:AA13 (
talk) 12:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. Although the article is quite a mess currently, that does not mean there aren't well established sources out there that do establish its notability. Additionally, if we're going to hold the sources without consensus on such a high pedestal for this article, we need to look back at the numerous - and I mean numerous, amounts of not even just past internet meme-related articles, but also internet culture-related articles in general, that are almost entirely reliant on those types of sources. This is a good representation of
Generation Alpha's entrance into internet culture and I don't see it not worth being kept as an article.
B3251 (
talk) 04:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Whether or not this is Generation Alpha's first foray into Internet culture is irrelevant. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Agreed, !votes in AfD should be primarily based on policies, notability, and source assessments.
Conyo14 (
talk) 16:17, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Please keep in mind that was just a personal opinion and I’m not expecting agreement. That doesn’t disregard the fact that so many internet culture-related articles with even less notability are heavily reliant on sources with no consensus. As I stated previously: if we're going to hold this article on such a high pedestal in source reliability, we must go forward with removing other articles/major content from articles such as
ai_sponge,
Griddy (dance), most entries on
List of Generation Z slang, and a major amount of content from numerous modern-day content creators.
B3251 (
talk) 18:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
This is not a double standard. The expectation of a well-sourced article has been everpresent since the notability guideline was established. I discovered this article through repeated external discussions. The work required to find the major amount of content you refer to, for instance, would be insurmountable for someone outside of the zeitgeist. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 18:18, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
If you think there are "well established sources", an AfD is where you prove it. Can't disprove a false negative... or whatever the phrase is.
SWinxy (
talk) 21:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
I agree, the series is getting more popular.
In a nutcheel (
talk) 13:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. This is not notable at all. What does this means? This is such a big catastrophic mess that I have included in my life. There are many poor sources in this article.
2001:448A:11A6:1B76:D15B:60DD:5E62:AA13 (
talk) 12:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The deletion of an article is not determined by the mere existence of unreliable sources or its quality; it's determined by the lack of independent reliable sources covering it in detail. See
WP:RUBBISH and the
general notability guideline.
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 14:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep. Cartoon Brew is a publication with a good reputation in the animation industry (see Jpcase's arguments in
this discussion); El Comerciois considered a newspaper of record of Peru; Excélsior is the second oldest newspaper of Mexico City and
has been recommended by the BBC as an "established daily" newspaper; and El Español was created by a former director of a Spanish newspaper of record, El Mundo. All of them have covered it in detail, though Excelsior's coverage is a bit less satisfying.
[2][3][4][5][6] Together with Kotaku, coverage seems enough to meet
GNG, though barely. Note that, although Dexerto does not contribute to the notability requirement, it can be cited in a case-by-case basis except for
BLP statements per
this recent discussion, so it might be fine to cite
this interview but not
this article.
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 14:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Your assessment agrees with mine. The one thing I worried about was independence since they all embed the video or Twitter in them.
Conyo14 (
talk) 20:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Important one thing I thinking about is deletion. This article would be deleted on October 4, 2023. Or better to be kept or deleted? What's your choice?
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A (
talk) 14:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or at least draftify. I feel like there's enough sources here to solidify its notability, unreliable sources aside. Though, the article definitely could do with a rewrite of sorts. Jurtatalk 15:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or draftify. This video series' quick boom in popularity worldwide is an amazing feat that at least brought attention from reliable news sources as put out on above, though not much for now. But I'm good with this article being draftified as RS's should be considered because not everything that quickly became popular on worldwide Internet would gain attention from such sources,
Technoblade being a great example on this.
MarioJump83 (
talk) 20:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or draftify. As a semi-popular meme, Wikipedia is not enough to load semi-popular meme pages, especially for Skibidi Toilet. Should we have another semi-popular memes like Battle for Dream Island, In the Beninging or Your Majesty, There's a Second Bus Coming? I feel so that Skibidi Toilet is not a fabulous trend today.
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A (
talk) 15:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I can absolutely explain this. A YouTube video about a Half-Life 2 animation by a semi-popular
Roblox YouTuber making overly dramatized videos about specific topics (Yes, I know that Parlo makes his content like that, he isn't really considered a notable YouTuber in the Roblox community) doesn't establish notability at all. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
And YouTube itself doesn't establish notability either, especially Parlo or other drama YouTube channels. 🔥
Jalapeño🔥Stupid stuff I did 07:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I’m not using it as a source, given the overdramaticisation Parlo does to his videos. If someone wants to bring him up as a source, I’d vote deprecate. But it is proof it is not merely semi-popular, given the fanbase.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
I’m not using YT to establish notability. However, as shown in the article, Skibidi Toilet has more non-wiki sources than say, for example, Battle for Dream Island.
Brachy08(Talk) 01:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Based on your IP signature and the Geolocate link in your "User contributions" page, it seems that your account was created next to, if not in the same location as the other unregistered account I've replied above. So if you want to ammend your previous comment, then edit it (by putting the text you remove between <del> and </del>) or reply to it with clarification; please don't post new bulleted lines with bolded recommendations per
WP:DISCUSSAFD: "You can explain your earlier recommendation in response to others but do not repeat a bolded recommendation on a new bulleted line."
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 08:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I live in Tapaktuan, South Aceh Regency, Aceh, Indonesia. But my geolocate location is located in Jakarta, Indonesia, not Tapaktuan.
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A (
talk) 08:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep I can see why some people would think that the article is pretty weakly sourced. But
Not Just Bikes, a YouTuber with way less subscribers passed
WP:GNG
Keep Sources are enough to pass GNG, such as Kotaku and Cartoon Brew.
Skyshiftertalk 14:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep as per all reasons above. This is by now proven to be not a "normal" meme, but a more influential cultural phenomenon.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 05:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
According to Geolocate, this IP address is located in the same exact location as
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:6969:9BA8:149D:C97A and
2001:448A:11A2:1E4B:A1EC:400E:A8F5:F38B, who both have already given their bolded recommendations. Either this is a case of individual computers being located around the same exact proximity of a server, or this is a case of
WP:LOUTSOCK. Nope. My bad, this is probably a dynamic IP. Anyhow, as ObserveOwl has already said, please amend your previous statement instead of making new ones, thanks! Jurtatalk 08:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
*Keep or Redirect to
List of Internet phenomena. Skibidi toilet has already met
WP:GNG and has enough
SIGCOV for it to not be deleted. The article does meet GNG and the
previous AfD was closed as a speedy keep. Checking Google through the above links also indicates through many news sources that Skibidi Toilet is being popular. -- Wesoree(
talk·
contribs) 14:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or draftify and redirect to
List of Internet phenomena per nom. None of the sources are reliable, meet
WP:RS and this article has room for improvement. This AfD compared to the
previous AfD is actually accurate (which changed my mind). The article does not meet
WP:GNG but is messy and not ready for being an article, and also fails
WP:SIGCOV. -- Wesoree(
talk·
contribs) 14:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
You cannot satisfy GNG without first satisfying SIGCOV. They go hand to hand.
Catalk to me! 11:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or Redirect to
List of Internet phenomena per nom. This is such a terribly sourced articles with poor statements with a messy improvements. The article is also have blatant sources without passing
WP:GNG. Imagine Wikipedia have one article with terrible sources. Although this meme is very popular at all, but delete it anyway.
2001:448A:11A3:16EA:65D5:D7BB:91A9:5D03 (
talk) 14:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay this is definitely the same person with a dynamic IP. Closer, please disregard this any of the IP's !votes.
Conyo14 (
talk) 16:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or Draftify. This subject in my eyes is about 50/50 on meeting GNG, but if it did meet GNG, this is where
WP:SUSTAINED comes into play. I strongly believe all notability on this meme is routine coverage on the newest Internet craze and I have my doubts anything will come of it in the future. Internet memes come and go, and Skibidi Toilet is already starting to fade out. The sources here are likely what it could stay with for as long as the article exists. With that in mind, I believe that this article will not a) serve a purpose and/or b) meet SUSTAINED.
NegativeMP1 16:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)reply
What counts as a "sufficiently significant amount of time"? Kotaku and Vandal (El Español) made articles about it in July, and three of the Spanish-language sources I've mentioned above were released in September, so the series technically attracted attention over two months. The guideline says "Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability" (emphasis added), so that's another ambiguity. Per
WP:NOTTEMPORARY, "it does not need to have ongoing coverage". The news don't appear to cover Skibidi Toilet in the context of any event, other than for being popular for some months.
ObserveOwl (
chit-chat •
my doings) 08:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
It is far from fading out. Skibidi Toilet videos are still getting 30-40M views on average and the view count remains stable. I think it will be sustained for a long time(it has already been sustained for 8 months).
BitByte10 (
talk) 04:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete or draftify. The trend will die down in a few months, as is with most memes. Only the ones that are notable enough should have a Wikipedia article.
Chicken4War (
talk) 11:21, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguilltalk 11:43, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak keep or Redirect to
List of Internet phenomena. doesn't seem like it will have much lasting effect, but it just barely has enough sources to have
SIGCOV. i'm on the fence with this one.
DrowssapSMM (
say hello) 12:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Ungh, I hope it's not studied by future internet historians. Then again, Beavis and Butthead was looked at though the same lens... Just why people?
Oaktree b (
talk) 14:06, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Trends exist my man. Whether we abide by them or choose to ignore, you cannot disagree that at some point in history it was popular.
Conyo14 (
talk) 16:23, 5 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. Sources in article and discussed in this direction are sufficient to meet
WP:GNG. This has already gotten sustained coverage for more than half a year, so it's more than just a truly transient meme. --
Patar knight - chat/contributions 15:14, 9 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak Keep This is a truly borderline article, but I think there is just enough to tip the scales in favor of a keep vote. As demonstrated by ObserveOwl, several of the sources covering Skibidi Toilet are reasonably reliable. Also, while I would never use the Daily Dot as a source for political content, I think it is an acceptable source for non-controversial internet phenomenon per
WP: DAILYDOT/my own experience with the source. Regarding sustained coverage, I think a few months of coverage is fine for a series of YouTube shorts. I don’t find this length of coverage to be especially persuasive, but its long enough not to drop a “delete per WP:NOTNEWS.” Honestly, I think keeping this and merging the article into the List of Internet Phenomena article are both perfectly reasonable outcomes, although I’m slightly more inclined to keep for the previously listed reasons.
Spirit of Eagle (
talk)
Weak Keep I'll admit. I have never watched one of these videos, and I
probably never will. But that's neither here nor there. The sourcing is borderline and leans towards being adequate. It's true that many of the sources the article had in it at the time it was nominated had
no consensus on their reliability. I wouldn't say that's a strong enough case for deletion on its own, but it does at least put into question whether or not the article really does pass GNG. However, during the course of this discussion, multiple editors have found additional sources that give more credibility to the idea that this topic passes GNG after all. Some of the counterarguments to these additional sources were less than convincing. With respect to Jalapeño, we do not guilt-by-association sources by tracking down the previous writing gigs of the author and checking to see if they had ever worked for an unreliable outlet, deeming all future works unreliable if they have. That's not how that works. Vanilla Wizard 💙 11:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete I genuinely think we need stricter guidelines for pages for memes. Events can carry notability, but that's often demonstrable in a long standing cultural status that affects things in the long term. As it stands, this is hardly distinguishable from a KnowYourMeme article.
Paragon Deku (
talk) 23:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep I don’t like Skibidi Toilet I think it’s grown to be pretty annoying but it’s impossible to deny that it is in fact huge and has somehow managed to reach the mainstream and is clearly receiving significant media coverage so I believe the page should be allowed to stay as it has managed to become a very popular web series.
InternetEnigma (
talk) 10:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.