The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus.
Daniel (
talk) 03:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm tired of people contesting PRODs for non-notable musicians. Contested PROD. Fails
WP:GNG and
WP:MUSICBIO.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 19:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep As noted in the edit summary where I contested the
WP:PROD, Mr. Griffin meets criterion 6 of
WP:MUSICBIO: "is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles". He has been a prominent member of both
The Dixie Melody Boys and
Greater Vision, both of which are decidedly notable ensembles. He has also written many of the songs performed by Greater Vision and other notable gospel groups.
Acdixon(
talk·contribs) 19:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Notice that MUSICBIO states that a subject may be notable, not that the subject is notable. If he is a prominent member of these quartets, then we should be able to read volumes about the subject. Since none is present and none can be found on the Internet with my
WP:BEFORE search, I nominated for PROD and now again for AfD. if no sources can be supported to support the subject's notability, the article must be deleted. And the not at the bottom of the section is similarly clear, "Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases."
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 20:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Admittedly, I'm not nearly as active here as I once was, so I'm sure some of the nuances of policy may escape me, but I find it remarkable that Mr. Griffin can be considered non-notable under policy while we de facto keep any one-sentence stub about Joe Blow who had two at-bats for the Red Sox 100 years ago. (And yes, I'm aware of
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.) As a singer, he meets one of the criteria set out by
WP:MUSICBIO (noted above). As a songwriter, he also meets multiple criteria for notability: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition" and "Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers" (he wrote "My Name is Lazarus", which was nominated for a
Dove Award and won "Song of the Year" at the
Southern Gospel Music Association Awards in 2000. He also received SGMA "Songwriter of the Year" in 2000.
[1][2] His unprecedented streak as Favorite Songwriter in
The Singing News' Fan Awards is no doubt being discounted because it is a fan award category, but so is all-star recognition in most sports, and that's used as a measure of notability. Also, The Signing News awards are cited in published works about Southern Gospel music, including the Encyclopedia of American Gospel Music (which cites Griffin's wins in its article about Greater Vision) and the
SGMA Hall of Fame and Museum (which notes wins by Griffin's bandmate, Gerald Wolfe, in The Singing News Fan Awards). I concede that Google doesn't readily turn up any in-depth coverage of Griffin individually, but even the bits we can piece together from the sources you've cited make more of an article than we have (and probably ever will have) for a good number of "presumed notable" articles about small towns, sports figures, and rare fauna and flora. Not that I'm arguing for their deletion either, but the lack of symmetry between notability guidelines on these subjects is baffling and, to my mind, harmful to the goals of Wikipedia. So if you want to follow the letter of these inconsistent guidelines, go ahead and delete, I guess. But it seems to me that the spirit of these guidelines shows Mr. Griffin to be many-fold more notable than what is currently reflected in the readily available sources.
If my tone seems a little peeved, well - it is. Maybe it was your intro that "I'm tired of people contesting PRODs for non-notable musicians." Very
WP:CIVIL, don't you think? Especially given that it's the first time - to my knowledge - that I've ever committed such a "sin". Can you honestly say this is a better encyclopedia for having omitted Mr. Griffin?
Acdixon(
talk·contribs) 16:25, 26 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Understandable. It was not only speaking of you. I'm going through some clearly non-notable musicians (who are more notable than this subject) all because they were members of a notable band and one editor removed the PRODs, and that editor has not come to see the overwhelming support for deletion in the AfDs. Sorry if you felt singled-out. I have struck the comment, although it is clearly on-record.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 17:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete not "reasonably prominent" that means we would find coverage about him specifically which is lacking.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as he does have a number of notable awards / nominations and some significant coveage such as
here, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 00:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Natg 19 (
talk) 02:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep As per references provided above, Griffin has won awards as a songwriter.
Davidstewartharvey (
talk) 13:54, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus.
Daniel (
talk) 03:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm tired of people contesting PRODs for non-notable musicians. Contested PROD. Fails
WP:GNG and
WP:MUSICBIO.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 19:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep As noted in the edit summary where I contested the
WP:PROD, Mr. Griffin meets criterion 6 of
WP:MUSICBIO: "is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles". He has been a prominent member of both
The Dixie Melody Boys and
Greater Vision, both of which are decidedly notable ensembles. He has also written many of the songs performed by Greater Vision and other notable gospel groups.
Acdixon(
talk·contribs) 19:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Notice that MUSICBIO states that a subject may be notable, not that the subject is notable. If he is a prominent member of these quartets, then we should be able to read volumes about the subject. Since none is present and none can be found on the Internet with my
WP:BEFORE search, I nominated for PROD and now again for AfD. if no sources can be supported to support the subject's notability, the article must be deleted. And the not at the bottom of the section is similarly clear, "Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases."
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 20:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Admittedly, I'm not nearly as active here as I once was, so I'm sure some of the nuances of policy may escape me, but I find it remarkable that Mr. Griffin can be considered non-notable under policy while we de facto keep any one-sentence stub about Joe Blow who had two at-bats for the Red Sox 100 years ago. (And yes, I'm aware of
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.) As a singer, he meets one of the criteria set out by
WP:MUSICBIO (noted above). As a songwriter, he also meets multiple criteria for notability: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition" and "Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers" (he wrote "My Name is Lazarus", which was nominated for a
Dove Award and won "Song of the Year" at the
Southern Gospel Music Association Awards in 2000. He also received SGMA "Songwriter of the Year" in 2000.
[1][2] His unprecedented streak as Favorite Songwriter in
The Singing News' Fan Awards is no doubt being discounted because it is a fan award category, but so is all-star recognition in most sports, and that's used as a measure of notability. Also, The Signing News awards are cited in published works about Southern Gospel music, including the Encyclopedia of American Gospel Music (which cites Griffin's wins in its article about Greater Vision) and the
SGMA Hall of Fame and Museum (which notes wins by Griffin's bandmate, Gerald Wolfe, in The Singing News Fan Awards). I concede that Google doesn't readily turn up any in-depth coverage of Griffin individually, but even the bits we can piece together from the sources you've cited make more of an article than we have (and probably ever will have) for a good number of "presumed notable" articles about small towns, sports figures, and rare fauna and flora. Not that I'm arguing for their deletion either, but the lack of symmetry between notability guidelines on these subjects is baffling and, to my mind, harmful to the goals of Wikipedia. So if you want to follow the letter of these inconsistent guidelines, go ahead and delete, I guess. But it seems to me that the spirit of these guidelines shows Mr. Griffin to be many-fold more notable than what is currently reflected in the readily available sources.
If my tone seems a little peeved, well - it is. Maybe it was your intro that "I'm tired of people contesting PRODs for non-notable musicians." Very
WP:CIVIL, don't you think? Especially given that it's the first time - to my knowledge - that I've ever committed such a "sin". Can you honestly say this is a better encyclopedia for having omitted Mr. Griffin?
Acdixon(
talk·contribs) 16:25, 26 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Understandable. It was not only speaking of you. I'm going through some clearly non-notable musicians (who are more notable than this subject) all because they were members of a notable band and one editor removed the PRODs, and that editor has not come to see the overwhelming support for deletion in the AfDs. Sorry if you felt singled-out. I have struck the comment, although it is clearly on-record.
Walter Görlitz (
talk) 17:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete not "reasonably prominent" that means we would find coverage about him specifically which is lacking.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep as he does have a number of notable awards / nominations and some significant coveage such as
here, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk) 00:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Natg 19 (
talk) 02:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep As per references provided above, Griffin has won awards as a songwriter.
Davidstewartharvey (
talk) 13:54, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.