Olives and olive trees in Israel and Judaism
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Olives and olive trees in Israel and Judaism ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Does not fulfill the WP:Notability guideline as it lacks significant coverage that would justify a standalone article outside of Agriculture in Israel. Makeandtoss ( talk) 08:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Judaism and Israel. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, I really don't understand the deletion rationale here. Sectorally-specific articles are obvious and common sub-articles within the economic topic tree. There are three other country-olive-specific articles already:
Olive production in India,
Olive cultivation in Palestine, and
Olive production in Switzerland. There is already some coverage of this topic at
Olive#Judaism and Christianity, and a quick
WP:BEFORE finds a huge number of sources covering various aspects of the quite broad topic at hand, including those touching upon aspects not yet included in this underdeveloped article
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7] etc. If I was to articulate a potential issue with the current article, it is that the subject may be too broad, covering a few different topics that might be better separated. However, that would result in more articles, not fewer, and the current scope is broad in a way that exceeds the scope of
Agriculture in Israel.
CMD (
talk)
16:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The problem here is not that it is country-specific, but that, as you mentioned, merges a country-specific topic with a religion; a merge that has not received significant coverage in RS. I would support the split into two articles, but I don’t think the Judaism part has received any more significant coverage, therefore, I would eventually support moving current article into an Israel-only scope instead.
Makeandtoss (
talk)
16:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Links between Judaism and Israel have been explored in RS, including specifically with olives
[8]
[9]. There is also research into the broader question of the intersection of Judaism with agricultural practices in Israel and the practical impacts that has
[10]
[11]
[12] (and for fun
here is a really odd paper tangentially stretching from that topic). If those links were less explicit, an article could still be built as a
WP:BROADCONCEPT, which the current one appears to be doing. As stated, I don't believe the article should be doing this, but fixing that is not something that involves deletion.
CMD (
talk)
17:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Aside from the first link [13], a paper by an Israeli university, there doesn't seem to be specific coverage of the topic, aside from passing mentions; that is how I have been interpreting significant coverage anyway, to require at least a dedicated chapter or topic. I can't seem to open the second link however. Makeandtoss ( talk) 18:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Links between Judaism and Israel have been explored in RS, including specifically with olives
[8]
[9]. There is also research into the broader question of the intersection of Judaism with agricultural practices in Israel and the practical impacts that has
[10]
[11]
[12] (and for fun
here is a really odd paper tangentially stretching from that topic). If those links were less explicit, an article could still be built as a
WP:BROADCONCEPT, which the current one appears to be doing. As stated, I don't believe the article should be doing this, but fixing that is not something that involves deletion.
CMD (
talk)
17:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The problem here is not that it is country-specific, but that, as you mentioned, merges a country-specific topic with a religion; a merge that has not received significant coverage in RS. I would support the split into two articles, but I don’t think the Judaism part has received any more significant coverage, therefore, I would eventually support moving current article into an Israel-only scope instead.
Makeandtoss (
talk)
16:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge I took a look at a few of the sources, and I'm not convinced that Olives and olive trees in Israel and Judaism is itself a thing. Much of the content is suitable for the encyclopedia, but some of it belongs in
History of agriculture in Israel and some of it might do well as "Olives in Judaism" or part of
Jewish symbolism but I'm not seeing that the physical value of olives as an agricultural product and the symbolic value of olives in Judaism are established to be the same thing in the article in its current form. Also—and maybe I just have too much current events on my mind—the authors may take an interest in
History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel or in drafting an article compiling all the arguments for and against the existence of Israel as a state because maybe this isn't really about olives.
Darkfrog24 (
talk)
18:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- I must respectfully disagree. The article only deals with the historical and religious perspective. I don't think Israel's legitimacy depends on Olives. I made sure that nothing about the
Arab-Israeli conflict is mentioned here to avoid further problems.
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
20:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Being respectfully disagreed with is so refreshing.
Darkfrog24 (
talk)
00:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Just trying to be polite
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sarcasm. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 23:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Just trying to be polite
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Being respectfully disagreed with is so refreshing.
Darkfrog24 (
talk)
00:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I must respectfully disagree. The article only deals with the historical and religious perspective. I don't think Israel's legitimacy depends on Olives. I made sure that nothing about the
Arab-Israeli conflict is mentioned here to avoid further problems.
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
20:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The olive tree and its fruits hold profound significance in Jewish history. It's one of the most important trees in Judaism and holds the designation of the national tree of the State of Israel. Its historical and cultural relevance extends from biblical times through the periods of the Israelite Kingdoms, continuing into the era of the new Yishuv. This article specifically covers the topic from both the historical and religious perspectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AhmedHijaziElSultani ( talk • contribs) 20:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep the article by the GNG yet limit the scope. Anything with "in Israel and Judaism" in the title will be problematic. If we examine the
Olive article, it will become clear that Judaism is already well covered there and this article is a legitimate SPINOFF. Israel is not well-covered. For example, the article should mention that the olive tree is the national tree of Israel. So no need to spin anything Israeli off. Same with
Agriculture in Israel. That article should have more information on different fruits, including olives.
gidonb (
talk)
03:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- There seem to be three overlapping but identifiable topics clustered together here: Olive production in Israel (modern), Olive production in ancient Israel, and Olives and olive trees in Judaism. Would you say your comment is to limit this current article to the third of these topics, and direct other information elsewhere? CMD ( talk) 09:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- More or less. Olives and olive trees in Judaism should be the title and content. Olive production in ancient Israel is really included in this topic as the reality in ancient Israel is eternalized through Judaism (books that have been copied, rules that have been made based on that reality). Thus an article Olive production in ancient Israel would have a too large overlap ("CONTENTFORK"). The Israel content should be distributed between Agriculture in Israel and Olive, with some content relevant to both, as legitimate parents/siblings in this respect. Olive production in Israel would be a legitimate SPINOFF of both if there were enough content at the level above. There isn't. To the extent ancient Israel is purely based on historic production/cultivation (not the derivative of laws based thereon), also based in archeology, this is legitimate background/history for both articles. So theoretically that could be legitimate SPINOFF if it grew organically. I just don't see that happen. gidonb ( talk) 12:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge, this article essentially covers three different things, Ancient olive production in the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea, the religious significance of olives in Judaism, and their relation to the contemporary state of Israel. Thought these things might be related, I would warn against collapsing them into one article, simply on account of it being too broad. I suggest the contents of this article are either 1) merged into other articles: History of ancient Israel and Judah, Ancient Israelite cuisine, Agriculture in Israel, etc. or 2) narrowed down, perhaps focusing on Olives in ancient Israel or perhaps Olives in Judaism/ Olives in the Bible. It seems that there really isn't enough content about the present day state of Israel to have a separate article on that. digiulio8 ( talk) 02:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet there is enough content on
Olives and olive trees in Judaism. In fact, if we would merge that to the parent we'd create a situation of UNDUE. Hence, for this part of the article, it is a justified SPINOFF. Also, Judaism is not limited to the "Bible". That's a projection of Christianity.
gidonb (
talk)
02:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Right, which is why I argue for either merging this content or narrowing its scope. It is really not robust if you brake the sections down and should be mentioned in these relevant kind of "parent articles" in the first place because some of these olives are scarcely talked about at the moment, maybe indicating that the information just be merged. Right now, I'm unsure if there is actually enough content on Olives in Judaism and I believe it would have to continue to be expanded because it continues to collapse: 1) the practices and history of Ancient Israelites, contemporary Jewish practices, and Jewish religious texts. Of course, these are all related (and sometimes these points are connected well within the article), however, at this point, the often scope seems too broad and the topics disjointed. Perhaps it is better to expand on first as a draft in order to justify SPINOFF with a proper scope. I am unsure.
- And I am aware of the fact that Judaism does not adhere to the Christian Bible per se and has other associated texts; this is simply for the purpose of congruence with similar articles such as Animals in the Bible, List of Hebrew Bible events, and so on, you could very well name it something else that is really just semantics, in addition to the fact that the use of "(Hebrew) Bible" (or "Tanakh") could include various texts outside of the Torah that remain relevant religiously and could expand on what is already written. digiulio8 ( talk) 05:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet there is enough content on
Olives and olive trees in Judaism. In fact, if we would merge that to the parent we'd create a situation of UNDUE. Hence, for this part of the article, it is a justified SPINOFF. Also, Judaism is not limited to the "Bible". That's a projection of Christianity.
gidonb (
talk)
02:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Olives and olive trees in Israel and Judaism
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Olives and olive trees in Israel and Judaism ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Does not fulfill the WP:Notability guideline as it lacks significant coverage that would justify a standalone article outside of Agriculture in Israel. Makeandtoss ( talk) 08:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Judaism and Israel. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, I really don't understand the deletion rationale here. Sectorally-specific articles are obvious and common sub-articles within the economic topic tree. There are three other country-olive-specific articles already:
Olive production in India,
Olive cultivation in Palestine, and
Olive production in Switzerland. There is already some coverage of this topic at
Olive#Judaism and Christianity, and a quick
WP:BEFORE finds a huge number of sources covering various aspects of the quite broad topic at hand, including those touching upon aspects not yet included in this underdeveloped article
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7] etc. If I was to articulate a potential issue with the current article, it is that the subject may be too broad, covering a few different topics that might be better separated. However, that would result in more articles, not fewer, and the current scope is broad in a way that exceeds the scope of
Agriculture in Israel.
CMD (
talk)
16:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The problem here is not that it is country-specific, but that, as you mentioned, merges a country-specific topic with a religion; a merge that has not received significant coverage in RS. I would support the split into two articles, but I don’t think the Judaism part has received any more significant coverage, therefore, I would eventually support moving current article into an Israel-only scope instead.
Makeandtoss (
talk)
16:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Links between Judaism and Israel have been explored in RS, including specifically with olives
[8]
[9]. There is also research into the broader question of the intersection of Judaism with agricultural practices in Israel and the practical impacts that has
[10]
[11]
[12] (and for fun
here is a really odd paper tangentially stretching from that topic). If those links were less explicit, an article could still be built as a
WP:BROADCONCEPT, which the current one appears to be doing. As stated, I don't believe the article should be doing this, but fixing that is not something that involves deletion.
CMD (
talk)
17:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Aside from the first link [13], a paper by an Israeli university, there doesn't seem to be specific coverage of the topic, aside from passing mentions; that is how I have been interpreting significant coverage anyway, to require at least a dedicated chapter or topic. I can't seem to open the second link however. Makeandtoss ( talk) 18:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Links between Judaism and Israel have been explored in RS, including specifically with olives
[8]
[9]. There is also research into the broader question of the intersection of Judaism with agricultural practices in Israel and the practical impacts that has
[10]
[11]
[12] (and for fun
here is a really odd paper tangentially stretching from that topic). If those links were less explicit, an article could still be built as a
WP:BROADCONCEPT, which the current one appears to be doing. As stated, I don't believe the article should be doing this, but fixing that is not something that involves deletion.
CMD (
talk)
17:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The problem here is not that it is country-specific, but that, as you mentioned, merges a country-specific topic with a religion; a merge that has not received significant coverage in RS. I would support the split into two articles, but I don’t think the Judaism part has received any more significant coverage, therefore, I would eventually support moving current article into an Israel-only scope instead.
Makeandtoss (
talk)
16:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge I took a look at a few of the sources, and I'm not convinced that Olives and olive trees in Israel and Judaism is itself a thing. Much of the content is suitable for the encyclopedia, but some of it belongs in
History of agriculture in Israel and some of it might do well as "Olives in Judaism" or part of
Jewish symbolism but I'm not seeing that the physical value of olives as an agricultural product and the symbolic value of olives in Judaism are established to be the same thing in the article in its current form. Also—and maybe I just have too much current events on my mind—the authors may take an interest in
History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel or in drafting an article compiling all the arguments for and against the existence of Israel as a state because maybe this isn't really about olives.
Darkfrog24 (
talk)
18:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- I must respectfully disagree. The article only deals with the historical and religious perspective. I don't think Israel's legitimacy depends on Olives. I made sure that nothing about the
Arab-Israeli conflict is mentioned here to avoid further problems.
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
20:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Being respectfully disagreed with is so refreshing.
Darkfrog24 (
talk)
00:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Just trying to be polite
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sarcasm. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 23:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Just trying to be polite
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Being respectfully disagreed with is so refreshing.
Darkfrog24 (
talk)
00:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I must respectfully disagree. The article only deals with the historical and religious perspective. I don't think Israel's legitimacy depends on Olives. I made sure that nothing about the
Arab-Israeli conflict is mentioned here to avoid further problems.
AhmedHijaziElSultani (
talk)
20:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The olive tree and its fruits hold profound significance in Jewish history. It's one of the most important trees in Judaism and holds the designation of the national tree of the State of Israel. Its historical and cultural relevance extends from biblical times through the periods of the Israelite Kingdoms, continuing into the era of the new Yishuv. This article specifically covers the topic from both the historical and religious perspectives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AhmedHijaziElSultani ( talk • contribs) 20:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep the article by the GNG yet limit the scope. Anything with "in Israel and Judaism" in the title will be problematic. If we examine the
Olive article, it will become clear that Judaism is already well covered there and this article is a legitimate SPINOFF. Israel is not well-covered. For example, the article should mention that the olive tree is the national tree of Israel. So no need to spin anything Israeli off. Same with
Agriculture in Israel. That article should have more information on different fruits, including olives.
gidonb (
talk)
03:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- There seem to be three overlapping but identifiable topics clustered together here: Olive production in Israel (modern), Olive production in ancient Israel, and Olives and olive trees in Judaism. Would you say your comment is to limit this current article to the third of these topics, and direct other information elsewhere? CMD ( talk) 09:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- More or less. Olives and olive trees in Judaism should be the title and content. Olive production in ancient Israel is really included in this topic as the reality in ancient Israel is eternalized through Judaism (books that have been copied, rules that have been made based on that reality). Thus an article Olive production in ancient Israel would have a too large overlap ("CONTENTFORK"). The Israel content should be distributed between Agriculture in Israel and Olive, with some content relevant to both, as legitimate parents/siblings in this respect. Olive production in Israel would be a legitimate SPINOFF of both if there were enough content at the level above. There isn't. To the extent ancient Israel is purely based on historic production/cultivation (not the derivative of laws based thereon), also based in archeology, this is legitimate background/history for both articles. So theoretically that could be legitimate SPINOFF if it grew organically. I just don't see that happen. gidonb ( talk) 12:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge, this article essentially covers three different things, Ancient olive production in the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea, the religious significance of olives in Judaism, and their relation to the contemporary state of Israel. Thought these things might be related, I would warn against collapsing them into one article, simply on account of it being too broad. I suggest the contents of this article are either 1) merged into other articles: History of ancient Israel and Judah, Ancient Israelite cuisine, Agriculture in Israel, etc. or 2) narrowed down, perhaps focusing on Olives in ancient Israel or perhaps Olives in Judaism/ Olives in the Bible. It seems that there really isn't enough content about the present day state of Israel to have a separate article on that. digiulio8 ( talk) 02:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet there is enough content on
Olives and olive trees in Judaism. In fact, if we would merge that to the parent we'd create a situation of UNDUE. Hence, for this part of the article, it is a justified SPINOFF. Also, Judaism is not limited to the "Bible". That's a projection of Christianity.
gidonb (
talk)
02:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Right, which is why I argue for either merging this content or narrowing its scope. It is really not robust if you brake the sections down and should be mentioned in these relevant kind of "parent articles" in the first place because some of these olives are scarcely talked about at the moment, maybe indicating that the information just be merged. Right now, I'm unsure if there is actually enough content on Olives in Judaism and I believe it would have to continue to be expanded because it continues to collapse: 1) the practices and history of Ancient Israelites, contemporary Jewish practices, and Jewish religious texts. Of course, these are all related (and sometimes these points are connected well within the article), however, at this point, the often scope seems too broad and the topics disjointed. Perhaps it is better to expand on first as a draft in order to justify SPINOFF with a proper scope. I am unsure.
- And I am aware of the fact that Judaism does not adhere to the Christian Bible per se and has other associated texts; this is simply for the purpose of congruence with similar articles such as Animals in the Bible, List of Hebrew Bible events, and so on, you could very well name it something else that is really just semantics, in addition to the fact that the use of "(Hebrew) Bible" (or "Tanakh") could include various texts outside of the Torah that remain relevant religiously and could expand on what is already written. digiulio8 ( talk) 05:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yet there is enough content on
Olives and olive trees in Judaism. In fact, if we would merge that to the parent we'd create a situation of UNDUE. Hence, for this part of the article, it is a justified SPINOFF. Also, Judaism is not limited to the "Bible". That's a projection of Christianity.
gidonb (
talk)
02:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)