- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Consensus is that significant coverage exists. (non-admin closure) Enos733 ( talk) 05:23, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Olga Sukhenko
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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline nor the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (biographies) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. The coverage I can see is in passing - she was a prominent victim of the Bucha massacre (a local politician, village head), but that's not the same as notable. Also relevant WP:ONEVENT, WP:NOTMEMORIAL. I recommend a redirect to Bucha massacre, where she is already mentioned as a victim (and the current article has next to no extra information anyway). PS. No Ukrainian interwiki is a red flag too, uk:Ольга Сухенко is not even a redirect? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Politicians and
Women.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 19:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Of course she's notable.
- We're here searching for her name and we never knew she or her small town existed a week ago.
- What a shameful attempt to censor history.
70.164.212.94 (
talk) 02:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- One of the reasons
why we have these guidelines, such as "
significant coverage" in reliable sources is
so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph [...] If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject [...] should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic
. A merge and/or redirect would not erase her from Wikipedia, and our guidelines state, " A decision to cover a notable topic only as part of a broader page does not in any way disparage the importance of the topic." Beccaynr ( talk) 03:09, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- One of the reasons
why we have these guidelines, such as "
significant coverage" in reliable sources is
- KeepA quick peek at Google News indicate a huge amount of international coverage in the most high profile newspapers. BLP1E clearly does not apply to a mayor, who is a high profile individual. I could say more, but it's best explained here
WP:NOTBLP1E
CT55555 (
talk) 19:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- A mayor of a village... Anyway, can you link such coverage when it passes [[WP:SIGCOV]? All I see are mentions in passing, that a leader of a village, named such and such, as well as her family and some other people, were brutally killed. That's tragic, but that's not enough to make her notable.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 10:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- It seems like you have not understood the link I have shared above. So I'll try to explain.
- WP:BLP1E is a policy written to avoid creating articles about people who are notable only for one thing. Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a mayor, and then being murdered.
- WP:BLP1E does not require that each of these events meet the significant coverage threshold. What BLP1E presents is three criteria that each need to be met. One of those criteria is "If that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual." Low profile is defined if you click through WP:LOWPROFILE and it presents examples including specifically people who have power in a political sphere. She was a mayor. That is clear.
- So it is not my job to show you that her mayor activities have significant coverage, it it my job to argue if she is a low profile individual or not. And the guidance is clear that she is not.
- I would urge you to not make the very commonly made misunderstanding of
WP:BLP1E and to please read
WP:NOTBLP1E with care.
CT55555 (
talk) 14:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- First, she was not a mayor, despite what sources call her. She was a village leader (
[1]). A
mayor is "is the highest-ranking official in a municipal government such as that of a city or a town" (that is also true for Ukraine, according to that article). So no, you are wrong when you say "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a mayor, and then being murdered.". But let's rephrase it to "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a village leader, and then being murdered." Now, show me a single source that discusses her being a village leader outside of the context of her death?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The criteria from WP:LOWPROFILE does not care what label we give her, it talks about people who have power in the political sphere. The village or town (good sources call it both) mayor or leader (good sources call her both) has political power. At risk of moving into original research, that might be why she was killed. That might be why this is news. Deep into personal analysis here, note either only her family was shot (why would that be, probably because she is important or notable) or others were and only her made the news (again, suggesting notability).
- Most likely the mayor or leader of a village or town in Ukraine will not make English language media, and my lack of Ukrainian blocks me from finding online sources, my geographic distance from Motyzhyn prevents me from getting the local papers. Thankfully, Wikipedia policy does not require me to show significant coverage of her mayoral duties, the policy we are discussing talks about low and high profile people, and I've explained which one she is and the 2022 sources back that up, and I think you are still not following the argument I am making if you keep thinking I need to show you significant coverage of her mayoral duties, this request is still showing me that we both understand WP:BLP1E differently and I think I am correct and rather than keep asking me the same thing, can you please review the part I am talking about? CT55555 ( talk) 15:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- As you requested, here is a source reporting on her work as the mayor from before her death
-
https://vk.com/wall-71213834_352
CT55555 (
talk) 15:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I saw below that you chose to not comment unless pinged, I think I should ping you for your comment on this, as this seemed to be exactly what you needed to reconsider
User:Piotrus
CT55555 (
talk) 15:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Pinged, I reply. While I appreciate attempts to try to find the badly needed sources, I assume you did not realize that VK (service) is a Russian equivalent of social media (also used in Ukraine). As such, we cannot accept this as reliable source. As for her notability as a politician, I still see no sufficient sourcing to show she meets Wikipedia:Notability (politicians). (And to pre-empt pointing to "received significant press coverage", I stand by my assessment that what received said press coverage is not her, but her death). Hence, WP:BLP1E still applies (and even the sources about her death are hardly in-depth). PS. One of the best Ukrainian sources bout her death, [2], is, first, about ther family (not just abut her), and second, when it com sto her, it openly admits "There is little information in open sources about her work as head of the village. ". And our section about her political career consists of little but bare-bones information about the dates she assumed her office, a report - based on the VK social media post you linked to - that at one point she visited a nursing home, a "sky is blue" sentence stating that "Her role included informal dispute resolution, building improvements, and organizing cultural events" that we can copy paste to every other article we have about municipal officials, a translation of her Facebook post and then mostly off topic information about the Bucha massacre. I am sorry to say but this is really scrapin the barrel, and fails SIGCOV by a mile. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- I saw below that you chose to not comment unless pinged, I think I should ping you for your comment on this, as this seemed to be exactly what you needed to reconsider
User:Piotrus
CT55555 (
talk) 15:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- First, she was not a mayor, despite what sources call her. She was a village leader (
[1]). A
mayor is "is the highest-ranking official in a municipal government such as that of a city or a town" (that is also true for Ukraine, according to that article). So no, you are wrong when you say "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a mayor, and then being murdered.". But let's rephrase it to "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a village leader, and then being murdered." Now, show me a single source that discusses her being a village leader outside of the context of her death?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- A mayor of a village... Anyway, can you link such coverage when it passes [[WP:SIGCOV]? All I see are mentions in passing, that a leader of a village, named such and such, as well as her family and some other people, were brutally killed. That's tragic, but that's not enough to make her notable.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 10:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep(Disclosure: I started the article) This doesn't fall under BLP1E as she was already notable as a national politician and mayor of a town. The coverage as it stands now, is quite significant and there are articles in major publications which focus solely on her -
Alison
❤ 20:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Just a suggestion (and just to be clear, I 100% agree with what you wrote above) but maybe if you added more in from the many sources online it would be even easier for more people to agree? CT55555 ( talk) 21:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- "she was already notable as a national politician and mayor of a town". Please provide reference for that. And she was not a mayor of a town, but a village leader ( Motyzhyn is a village, not a town). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep: Clearly meets notability criteria.--
Ipigott (
talk) 07:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:ITSNOTABLE, really? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:41, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Merge to Bucha massacre. Sukhenko and her family are currently mentioned at Battle_of_Bucha#Bucha_massacre, but this section is tagged for editing into more of a summary, and there is currently no mention of her at the suggested target article. If additional sourcing develops, a standalone BLP could be recreated, but for now, it appears WP:BLP1E encourages a merge to the only event for which she receives coverage, because she is otherwise low-profile (based on sources I have found), and her role in this significant event (including e.g. Ukraine reporting the abduction of 11 mayors (AFP, Apr. 3, 2022)) is not currently well-documented. For now, the sources appear insufficient to support a standalone article;per WP:SIGCOV fn 3,It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works.
Beccaynr ( talk) 16:13, 5 April 2022 (UTC)- Genuine question: is a mayor really
WP:LOWPROFILE? I quote (emphasis mine): "High-profile: Has sought or holds a position of pre-eminence, power, or authority in a field of research, a sport, a business market, a political sphere"
CT55555 (
talk) 16:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The quote above from the
Eminence section also states,
usually at more than a locally-significant level.
I have not found sources to otherwise show she was high-profile per the explanatory supplement, e.g.one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication
or voluntary participation inself-publicity activities, such as press conferences
or that she was aspeaker for a publicly advertised event at which admission was collected and/or which garnered significant independent, non-local coverage.
The explanatory supplement also states,Typically notable or would-be notable for roles of various levels of importance in more than a single major event, or for a major role in one major event.
My !vote is also based on the WP:PAGEDECIDE guideline, due to the context available in the suggested merge target, with a caveat that while sourcing currently appears insufficient to support a standalone article, it may develop in the future to support recreation of the article. Beccaynr ( talk) 17:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The quote above from the
Eminence section also states,
- Genuine question: is a mayor really
WP:LOWPROFILE? I quote (emphasis mine): "High-profile: Has sought or holds a position of pre-eminence, power, or authority in a field of research, a sport, a business market, a political sphere"
CT55555 (
talk) 16:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - adding to significant coverage in reliable sources, the
WSJ has just published a profile of her life and death. She is a small-town mayor, and I agree that's not a guarantee of notability by any means, but as an individual she clearly is notable.
WP:BLP1E does not apply - her death resulted in significant coverage *because* she was/is notable.
Ganesha811 (
talk) 18:43, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Within the WP:BLP1E/ WP:LOWPROFILE framework, the WSJ reports on her role beyond a locally-significant level (e.g. "She was also part of an undercover effort to send Russian troop positions and movements to the Ukrainian military, say Ukrainian officials and others involved"), as does BBC News: "It is believed that she and her family were killed on suspicion of helping Ukrainian soldiers". Beccaynr ( talk) 21:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Despite the title, it's not really a profile about her, it's an article about a number of related Russian war crimes, and it still fails to say much about her, except providing a few quotes about her from the former residents. And for the n-th time, it's incorrect to call her a mayor.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 08:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Not really about her? The story focuses on her from beginning to end. This article calls her a mayor, as do a number of other reliable sources (for example
1,
2). Whether that's a perfect translation of her title or not has no bearing on her notability. I know it's tempting to respond to everyone you feel is making weak-quality arguments (
I've fallen into the exact same trap myself!) but be careful not to
WP:BLUDGEON the process.
Ganesha811 (
talk)
Ganesha811 (
talk) 12:16, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I am fine to move this discussion to your talk page, to avoid bludgeoning this here, but in short, I don't think those are sources focusing on her. At best they focus on
death of Olga Sukhenko, as we still now very little about her pre-death life, and IMHO the stories are using her as a "face" of the wider massacre, as she appears to be the most prominent victim of it. Unless pinged to, I will withdraw from this discussion and will not reply unless pinged directly (as you say, I may indeed be posting a bit too much here), but to reiterate my point, IMHO, sadly, she has no notability separate from that terrible attrocity, and thefore, there is no need for a stand-alone article - unless sources are found that discuss her life outside of her tragic death, and meeting
WP:SIGCOV. (as in, the few quotes about her being a good community leader from interviewed survivors in the lenghtier pieces, are not sufficient).
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 12:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Piotrus, I appreciate your analysis of the sources, because I think sources help drive the determination of what is best for this article. I updated my !vote based on information from more recent sources (e.g. WSJ, BBC) that discuss her role in the war that was beyond of her usual role as the head of the village, and specifically her involvement in support of the Ukrainian army, which may be connected to her death but also seems to be the kind of 'high-profile' activity and support for a 'substantial and well-documented' role that makes it harder for me to continue to support a merge. And then there is the coverage of her as a 'face' of the wider massacre, and coverage related to her currently being the only known fatality of the 12 abducted mayors reported by Ukrainian officials. My general sense is that based on this initial information, as well as other news about calls for investigations into war crimes, there is more than speculation we can engage in about the potential for future coverage. But this article can be revisited in the future, including per WP:BLP1E, perhaps on the basis that the significance of the event was not adequately supported by persistent coverage, or because further documentation of her substantial role did not emerge. Beccaynr ( talk) 19:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I am fine to move this discussion to your talk page, to avoid bludgeoning this here, but in short, I don't think those are sources focusing on her. At best they focus on
death of Olga Sukhenko, as we still now very little about her pre-death life, and IMHO the stories are using her as a "face" of the wider massacre, as she appears to be the most prominent victim of it. Unless pinged to, I will withdraw from this discussion and will not reply unless pinged directly (as you say, I may indeed be posting a bit too much here), but to reiterate my point, IMHO, sadly, she has no notability separate from that terrible attrocity, and thefore, there is no need for a stand-alone article - unless sources are found that discuss her life outside of her tragic death, and meeting
WP:SIGCOV. (as in, the few quotes about her being a good community leader from interviewed survivors in the lenghtier pieces, are not sufficient).
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 12:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Not really about her? The story focuses on her from beginning to end. This article calls her a mayor, as do a number of other reliable sources (for example
1,
2). Whether that's a perfect translation of her title or not has no bearing on her notability. I know it's tempting to respond to everyone you feel is making weak-quality arguments (
I've fallen into the exact same trap myself!) but be careful not to
WP:BLUDGEON the process.
Ganesha811 (
talk)
Ganesha811 (
talk) 12:16, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep — she had a son too,
Oleksandr Sukhenko[
uk.
☆☆☆—Pietadè
Talk 18:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Pietadè, Do note that notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. Curbon7 ( talk) 01:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: 5 keeps, 1 merge, zero delete !votes.... WP:SNOW is relevant here, I don't think this article is likely to be deleted.... CT55555 ( talk) 01:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment There is a Ukrainian interwiki article: uk:Сухенко Ольга Петрівна without sources. Beccaynr ( talk) 01:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- !vote updated to Weak Keep and I have struck most of my comment above - the additional sources identified in this discussion (WSJ, BBC)
and this Metro/MSN article about her final Facebook post and other detailsadd to hersubstantial
andwell-documented
role. My !vote would be stronger if there was more time since the event to assert significance based on persistence of coverage per WP:BLP1E. Beccaynr ( talk) 01:44, 6 April 2022 (UTC) - comment updated to strike WP:METRO. Beccaynr ( talk) 04:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC) - Keep - This article has had about 11,000 page views in the first two days since being created, so there is clearly a demand to read more about this person at the moment. This person and her family appear to be
victims of one of a number of notable
criminal acts that are likely to be of historical significance. We have many articles about the victims of other crimes, so why should this article be any different? -
Cameron Dewe (
talk) 08:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:ITSPOPULAR, WP:NOTINHERITED, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS address all of the points you've raised. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:38, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- There are murder victims with their own pages and there are prominent people & 'celebs' with their own pages; Olga Sukhenko was both, so why not a page? - Is there a worry about limited server space?
Chien-ShiungWu (
talk) 12:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- In addition to OTHESTUFFEXISTS I just linked above, see WP:ABOUTEVERYTHING (why argument "Per WP:NOTPAPER, Wikipedia has space for it " is not valid). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:47, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment - the article has been expanded since the nomination, including to note that she was also known as Olha Sukhenko. The Times also recently published this: The mayor refused to abandon her people. They found her in a shallow grave. Beccaynr ( talk) 15:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC) (which on closer review, appears to be the same article published by the WSJ) Beccaynr ( talk) 15:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I added some 2017 reporting about her so I think this (already disproven) BLP1E justification can be utterly rejected. CT55555 ( talk) 15:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep I somewhat understand the desire to prevent excessive recentism regarding the war in Ukraine. However, it seems clear Sukhenko has attracted fairly significant global coverage for her role during the war. Simply because someone came to prominence recently or after their death does not in itself indicate a lack of significance or notability. Many individuals became notable with lasting significance due to acts of resistance during armed conflict or oppression (see Category:Polish resistance members of World War II or Category:Self-immolations in protest of the Eastern Bloc). The three criteria set out at WP:BLP1E to indicate people notable for only one event are clearly not met. AusLondonder ( talk) 16:30, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Delete While the precedent with the generals seems to be somewhat high position + death = notable, I don't think that holds here and this is only really
WP:BLP1E. The position of mayor of a village with 1,000 residents does not present sufficient notability. Minor references prior to her death are not adequate; if you look hard enough, pretty much any person has a public record. Perhaps we may have a page about her and her family's murder. I am sure it has sufficient international coverage.
Solipsism 101 (
talk) 23:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
-
Category:Mayors by city in the United States - 340 categories, each with about 5-15 pages, makes about 3400 notable US mayors;
Category:Mayors by city in the United Kingdom - 47 categories;
Category:Mayors by city in Ukraine 7 categories, 1 page. No need to strengthen the
geographical bias on Wikipedia (see also
gender bias on Wikipedia).
Boud (
talk) 00:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- We're talking about the mayor of a village. Solipsism 101 ( talk) 01:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
-
Category:Mayors by city in the United States - 340 categories, each with about 5-15 pages, makes about 3400 notable US mayors;
Category:Mayors by city in the United Kingdom - 47 categories;
Category:Mayors by city in Ukraine 7 categories, 1 page. No need to strengthen the
geographical bias on Wikipedia (see also
gender bias on Wikipedia).
Boud (
talk) 00:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Notable person as a mayor/ village head of a village of 1000 people, and notable for her and her family's resistance to occupying Russian forces and extrajudicial execution by those same forces, a war crime. Boud ( talk) 00:45, 7 April 2022 (UTC) (fix: mayor/ village head Boud ( talk) 00:53, 7 April 2022 (UTC))
- Keep The amount of media coverage of her death makes her notable. Blaylockjam10 ( talk) 06:36, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Google searches shows massive amount of coverage for her. Yes, she might be just a lowly village leader that does not deserve a Wikipedia article on that regards, but she and her family being kidnapped and then killed by the Russians make her notable. She has been covered by news sources from Australia, Indonesia, Norway, Belgium, Sweden, Peru, and the United States. She has garnered global coverage, clearly her notability is established. SunDawn talk 17:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Reasons were cited above. But especially as a victim of the war crime, she become notable enough-- Noel baran ( talk) 03:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Consensus is that significant coverage exists. (non-admin closure) Enos733 ( talk) 05:23, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Olga Sukhenko
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Olga Sukhenko ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline nor the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (biographies) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. The coverage I can see is in passing - she was a prominent victim of the Bucha massacre (a local politician, village head), but that's not the same as notable. Also relevant WP:ONEVENT, WP:NOTMEMORIAL. I recommend a redirect to Bucha massacre, where she is already mentioned as a victim (and the current article has next to no extra information anyway). PS. No Ukrainian interwiki is a red flag too, uk:Ольга Сухенко is not even a redirect? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Politicians and
Women.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 19:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Of course she's notable.
- We're here searching for her name and we never knew she or her small town existed a week ago.
- What a shameful attempt to censor history.
70.164.212.94 (
talk) 02:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- One of the reasons
why we have these guidelines, such as "
significant coverage" in reliable sources is
so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph [...] If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject [...] should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic
. A merge and/or redirect would not erase her from Wikipedia, and our guidelines state, " A decision to cover a notable topic only as part of a broader page does not in any way disparage the importance of the topic." Beccaynr ( talk) 03:09, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- One of the reasons
why we have these guidelines, such as "
significant coverage" in reliable sources is
- KeepA quick peek at Google News indicate a huge amount of international coverage in the most high profile newspapers. BLP1E clearly does not apply to a mayor, who is a high profile individual. I could say more, but it's best explained here
WP:NOTBLP1E
CT55555 (
talk) 19:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- A mayor of a village... Anyway, can you link such coverage when it passes [[WP:SIGCOV]? All I see are mentions in passing, that a leader of a village, named such and such, as well as her family and some other people, were brutally killed. That's tragic, but that's not enough to make her notable.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 10:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- It seems like you have not understood the link I have shared above. So I'll try to explain.
- WP:BLP1E is a policy written to avoid creating articles about people who are notable only for one thing. Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a mayor, and then being murdered.
- WP:BLP1E does not require that each of these events meet the significant coverage threshold. What BLP1E presents is three criteria that each need to be met. One of those criteria is "If that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual." Low profile is defined if you click through WP:LOWPROFILE and it presents examples including specifically people who have power in a political sphere. She was a mayor. That is clear.
- So it is not my job to show you that her mayor activities have significant coverage, it it my job to argue if she is a low profile individual or not. And the guidance is clear that she is not.
- I would urge you to not make the very commonly made misunderstanding of
WP:BLP1E and to please read
WP:NOTBLP1E with care.
CT55555 (
talk) 14:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- First, she was not a mayor, despite what sources call her. She was a village leader (
[1]). A
mayor is "is the highest-ranking official in a municipal government such as that of a city or a town" (that is also true for Ukraine, according to that article). So no, you are wrong when you say "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a mayor, and then being murdered.". But let's rephrase it to "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a village leader, and then being murdered." Now, show me a single source that discusses her being a village leader outside of the context of her death?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The criteria from WP:LOWPROFILE does not care what label we give her, it talks about people who have power in the political sphere. The village or town (good sources call it both) mayor or leader (good sources call her both) has political power. At risk of moving into original research, that might be why she was killed. That might be why this is news. Deep into personal analysis here, note either only her family was shot (why would that be, probably because she is important or notable) or others were and only her made the news (again, suggesting notability).
- Most likely the mayor or leader of a village or town in Ukraine will not make English language media, and my lack of Ukrainian blocks me from finding online sources, my geographic distance from Motyzhyn prevents me from getting the local papers. Thankfully, Wikipedia policy does not require me to show significant coverage of her mayoral duties, the policy we are discussing talks about low and high profile people, and I've explained which one she is and the 2022 sources back that up, and I think you are still not following the argument I am making if you keep thinking I need to show you significant coverage of her mayoral duties, this request is still showing me that we both understand WP:BLP1E differently and I think I am correct and rather than keep asking me the same thing, can you please review the part I am talking about? CT55555 ( talk) 15:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- As you requested, here is a source reporting on her work as the mayor from before her death
-
https://vk.com/wall-71213834_352
CT55555 (
talk) 15:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I saw below that you chose to not comment unless pinged, I think I should ping you for your comment on this, as this seemed to be exactly what you needed to reconsider
User:Piotrus
CT55555 (
talk) 15:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Pinged, I reply. While I appreciate attempts to try to find the badly needed sources, I assume you did not realize that VK (service) is a Russian equivalent of social media (also used in Ukraine). As such, we cannot accept this as reliable source. As for her notability as a politician, I still see no sufficient sourcing to show she meets Wikipedia:Notability (politicians). (And to pre-empt pointing to "received significant press coverage", I stand by my assessment that what received said press coverage is not her, but her death). Hence, WP:BLP1E still applies (and even the sources about her death are hardly in-depth). PS. One of the best Ukrainian sources bout her death, [2], is, first, about ther family (not just abut her), and second, when it com sto her, it openly admits "There is little information in open sources about her work as head of the village. ". And our section about her political career consists of little but bare-bones information about the dates she assumed her office, a report - based on the VK social media post you linked to - that at one point she visited a nursing home, a "sky is blue" sentence stating that "Her role included informal dispute resolution, building improvements, and organizing cultural events" that we can copy paste to every other article we have about municipal officials, a translation of her Facebook post and then mostly off topic information about the Bucha massacre. I am sorry to say but this is really scrapin the barrel, and fails SIGCOV by a mile. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:25, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- I saw below that you chose to not comment unless pinged, I think I should ping you for your comment on this, as this seemed to be exactly what you needed to reconsider
User:Piotrus
CT55555 (
talk) 15:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- First, she was not a mayor, despite what sources call her. She was a village leader (
[1]). A
mayor is "is the highest-ranking official in a municipal government such as that of a city or a town" (that is also true for Ukraine, according to that article). So no, you are wrong when you say "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a mayor, and then being murdered.". But let's rephrase it to "Sukhenko is notable for two things: being a village leader, and then being murdered." Now, show me a single source that discusses her being a village leader outside of the context of her death?
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:05, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- A mayor of a village... Anyway, can you link such coverage when it passes [[WP:SIGCOV]? All I see are mentions in passing, that a leader of a village, named such and such, as well as her family and some other people, were brutally killed. That's tragic, but that's not enough to make her notable.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 10:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep(Disclosure: I started the article) This doesn't fall under BLP1E as she was already notable as a national politician and mayor of a town. The coverage as it stands now, is quite significant and there are articles in major publications which focus solely on her -
Alison
❤ 20:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Just a suggestion (and just to be clear, I 100% agree with what you wrote above) but maybe if you added more in from the many sources online it would be even easier for more people to agree? CT55555 ( talk) 21:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- "she was already notable as a national politician and mayor of a town". Please provide reference for that. And she was not a mayor of a town, but a village leader ( Motyzhyn is a village, not a town). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep: Clearly meets notability criteria.--
Ipigott (
talk) 07:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:ITSNOTABLE, really? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:41, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Merge to Bucha massacre. Sukhenko and her family are currently mentioned at Battle_of_Bucha#Bucha_massacre, but this section is tagged for editing into more of a summary, and there is currently no mention of her at the suggested target article. If additional sourcing develops, a standalone BLP could be recreated, but for now, it appears WP:BLP1E encourages a merge to the only event for which she receives coverage, because she is otherwise low-profile (based on sources I have found), and her role in this significant event (including e.g. Ukraine reporting the abduction of 11 mayors (AFP, Apr. 3, 2022)) is not currently well-documented. For now, the sources appear insufficient to support a standalone article;per WP:SIGCOV fn 3,It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works.
Beccaynr ( talk) 16:13, 5 April 2022 (UTC)- Genuine question: is a mayor really
WP:LOWPROFILE? I quote (emphasis mine): "High-profile: Has sought or holds a position of pre-eminence, power, or authority in a field of research, a sport, a business market, a political sphere"
CT55555 (
talk) 16:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The quote above from the
Eminence section also states,
usually at more than a locally-significant level.
I have not found sources to otherwise show she was high-profile per the explanatory supplement, e.g.one or more scheduled interviews to a notable publication
or voluntary participation inself-publicity activities, such as press conferences
or that she was aspeaker for a publicly advertised event at which admission was collected and/or which garnered significant independent, non-local coverage.
The explanatory supplement also states,Typically notable or would-be notable for roles of various levels of importance in more than a single major event, or for a major role in one major event.
My !vote is also based on the WP:PAGEDECIDE guideline, due to the context available in the suggested merge target, with a caveat that while sourcing currently appears insufficient to support a standalone article, it may develop in the future to support recreation of the article. Beccaynr ( talk) 17:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The quote above from the
Eminence section also states,
- Genuine question: is a mayor really
WP:LOWPROFILE? I quote (emphasis mine): "High-profile: Has sought or holds a position of pre-eminence, power, or authority in a field of research, a sport, a business market, a political sphere"
CT55555 (
talk) 16:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - adding to significant coverage in reliable sources, the
WSJ has just published a profile of her life and death. She is a small-town mayor, and I agree that's not a guarantee of notability by any means, but as an individual she clearly is notable.
WP:BLP1E does not apply - her death resulted in significant coverage *because* she was/is notable.
Ganesha811 (
talk) 18:43, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Within the WP:BLP1E/ WP:LOWPROFILE framework, the WSJ reports on her role beyond a locally-significant level (e.g. "She was also part of an undercover effort to send Russian troop positions and movements to the Ukrainian military, say Ukrainian officials and others involved"), as does BBC News: "It is believed that she and her family were killed on suspicion of helping Ukrainian soldiers". Beccaynr ( talk) 21:25, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Despite the title, it's not really a profile about her, it's an article about a number of related Russian war crimes, and it still fails to say much about her, except providing a few quotes about her from the former residents. And for the n-th time, it's incorrect to call her a mayor.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 08:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Not really about her? The story focuses on her from beginning to end. This article calls her a mayor, as do a number of other reliable sources (for example
1,
2). Whether that's a perfect translation of her title or not has no bearing on her notability. I know it's tempting to respond to everyone you feel is making weak-quality arguments (
I've fallen into the exact same trap myself!) but be careful not to
WP:BLUDGEON the process.
Ganesha811 (
talk)
Ganesha811 (
talk) 12:16, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I am fine to move this discussion to your talk page, to avoid bludgeoning this here, but in short, I don't think those are sources focusing on her. At best they focus on
death of Olga Sukhenko, as we still now very little about her pre-death life, and IMHO the stories are using her as a "face" of the wider massacre, as she appears to be the most prominent victim of it. Unless pinged to, I will withdraw from this discussion and will not reply unless pinged directly (as you say, I may indeed be posting a bit too much here), but to reiterate my point, IMHO, sadly, she has no notability separate from that terrible attrocity, and thefore, there is no need for a stand-alone article - unless sources are found that discuss her life outside of her tragic death, and meeting
WP:SIGCOV. (as in, the few quotes about her being a good community leader from interviewed survivors in the lenghtier pieces, are not sufficient).
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 12:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Piotrus, I appreciate your analysis of the sources, because I think sources help drive the determination of what is best for this article. I updated my !vote based on information from more recent sources (e.g. WSJ, BBC) that discuss her role in the war that was beyond of her usual role as the head of the village, and specifically her involvement in support of the Ukrainian army, which may be connected to her death but also seems to be the kind of 'high-profile' activity and support for a 'substantial and well-documented' role that makes it harder for me to continue to support a merge. And then there is the coverage of her as a 'face' of the wider massacre, and coverage related to her currently being the only known fatality of the 12 abducted mayors reported by Ukrainian officials. My general sense is that based on this initial information, as well as other news about calls for investigations into war crimes, there is more than speculation we can engage in about the potential for future coverage. But this article can be revisited in the future, including per WP:BLP1E, perhaps on the basis that the significance of the event was not adequately supported by persistent coverage, or because further documentation of her substantial role did not emerge. Beccaynr ( talk) 19:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I am fine to move this discussion to your talk page, to avoid bludgeoning this here, but in short, I don't think those are sources focusing on her. At best they focus on
death of Olga Sukhenko, as we still now very little about her pre-death life, and IMHO the stories are using her as a "face" of the wider massacre, as she appears to be the most prominent victim of it. Unless pinged to, I will withdraw from this discussion and will not reply unless pinged directly (as you say, I may indeed be posting a bit too much here), but to reiterate my point, IMHO, sadly, she has no notability separate from that terrible attrocity, and thefore, there is no need for a stand-alone article - unless sources are found that discuss her life outside of her tragic death, and meeting
WP:SIGCOV. (as in, the few quotes about her being a good community leader from interviewed survivors in the lenghtier pieces, are not sufficient).
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 12:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Not really about her? The story focuses on her from beginning to end. This article calls her a mayor, as do a number of other reliable sources (for example
1,
2). Whether that's a perfect translation of her title or not has no bearing on her notability. I know it's tempting to respond to everyone you feel is making weak-quality arguments (
I've fallen into the exact same trap myself!) but be careful not to
WP:BLUDGEON the process.
Ganesha811 (
talk)
Ganesha811 (
talk) 12:16, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep — she had a son too,
Oleksandr Sukhenko[
uk.
☆☆☆—Pietadè
Talk 18:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- Pietadè, Do note that notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. Curbon7 ( talk) 01:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: 5 keeps, 1 merge, zero delete !votes.... WP:SNOW is relevant here, I don't think this article is likely to be deleted.... CT55555 ( talk) 01:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment There is a Ukrainian interwiki article: uk:Сухенко Ольга Петрівна without sources. Beccaynr ( talk) 01:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- !vote updated to Weak Keep and I have struck most of my comment above - the additional sources identified in this discussion (WSJ, BBC)
and this Metro/MSN article about her final Facebook post and other detailsadd to hersubstantial
andwell-documented
role. My !vote would be stronger if there was more time since the event to assert significance based on persistence of coverage per WP:BLP1E. Beccaynr ( talk) 01:44, 6 April 2022 (UTC) - comment updated to strike WP:METRO. Beccaynr ( talk) 04:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC) - Keep - This article has had about 11,000 page views in the first two days since being created, so there is clearly a demand to read more about this person at the moment. This person and her family appear to be
victims of one of a number of notable
criminal acts that are likely to be of historical significance. We have many articles about the victims of other crimes, so why should this article be any different? -
Cameron Dewe (
talk) 08:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:ITSPOPULAR, WP:NOTINHERITED, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS address all of the points you've raised. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:38, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- There are murder victims with their own pages and there are prominent people & 'celebs' with their own pages; Olga Sukhenko was both, so why not a page? - Is there a worry about limited server space?
Chien-ShiungWu (
talk) 12:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- In addition to OTHESTUFFEXISTS I just linked above, see WP:ABOUTEVERYTHING (why argument "Per WP:NOTPAPER, Wikipedia has space for it " is not valid). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:47, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment - the article has been expanded since the nomination, including to note that she was also known as Olha Sukhenko. The Times also recently published this: The mayor refused to abandon her people. They found her in a shallow grave. Beccaynr ( talk) 15:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC) (which on closer review, appears to be the same article published by the WSJ) Beccaynr ( talk) 15:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I added some 2017 reporting about her so I think this (already disproven) BLP1E justification can be utterly rejected. CT55555 ( talk) 15:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep I somewhat understand the desire to prevent excessive recentism regarding the war in Ukraine. However, it seems clear Sukhenko has attracted fairly significant global coverage for her role during the war. Simply because someone came to prominence recently or after their death does not in itself indicate a lack of significance or notability. Many individuals became notable with lasting significance due to acts of resistance during armed conflict or oppression (see Category:Polish resistance members of World War II or Category:Self-immolations in protest of the Eastern Bloc). The three criteria set out at WP:BLP1E to indicate people notable for only one event are clearly not met. AusLondonder ( talk) 16:30, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Delete While the precedent with the generals seems to be somewhat high position + death = notable, I don't think that holds here and this is only really
WP:BLP1E. The position of mayor of a village with 1,000 residents does not present sufficient notability. Minor references prior to her death are not adequate; if you look hard enough, pretty much any person has a public record. Perhaps we may have a page about her and her family's murder. I am sure it has sufficient international coverage.
Solipsism 101 (
talk) 23:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
-
Category:Mayors by city in the United States - 340 categories, each with about 5-15 pages, makes about 3400 notable US mayors;
Category:Mayors by city in the United Kingdom - 47 categories;
Category:Mayors by city in Ukraine 7 categories, 1 page. No need to strengthen the
geographical bias on Wikipedia (see also
gender bias on Wikipedia).
Boud (
talk) 00:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- We're talking about the mayor of a village. Solipsism 101 ( talk) 01:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
-
Category:Mayors by city in the United States - 340 categories, each with about 5-15 pages, makes about 3400 notable US mayors;
Category:Mayors by city in the United Kingdom - 47 categories;
Category:Mayors by city in Ukraine 7 categories, 1 page. No need to strengthen the
geographical bias on Wikipedia (see also
gender bias on Wikipedia).
Boud (
talk) 00:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Notable person as a mayor/ village head of a village of 1000 people, and notable for her and her family's resistance to occupying Russian forces and extrajudicial execution by those same forces, a war crime. Boud ( talk) 00:45, 7 April 2022 (UTC) (fix: mayor/ village head Boud ( talk) 00:53, 7 April 2022 (UTC))
- Keep The amount of media coverage of her death makes her notable. Blaylockjam10 ( talk) 06:36, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Google searches shows massive amount of coverage for her. Yes, she might be just a lowly village leader that does not deserve a Wikipedia article on that regards, but she and her family being kidnapped and then killed by the Russians make her notable. She has been covered by news sources from Australia, Indonesia, Norway, Belgium, Sweden, Peru, and the United States. She has garnered global coverage, clearly her notability is established. SunDawn talk 17:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Reasons were cited above. But especially as a victim of the war crime, she become notable enough-- Noel baran ( talk) 03:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.