The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
@
Falcon Kirtaran: If I'm not mistaken, Mutualart acquired (
or it may have founded) the APT. Part of the problem here (hopefully this will be corrected in the AfD process) is that the connection and history of the entities "Artist Pension Trust", "Mutualart.com", "mutualart" and "Mutualart Group" is not clear. It is certainly not correctly or clearly stated in our articles.
Possibly (
talk)
03:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I think we will be OK with one article on Mutual Art, the parent company, and one on the Artist Pension Trust. I have been expanding the article and am having no trouble finding good sourcing on MutualArt and mutualart.com. More in my !vote below.
Possibly (
talk)
04:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep, but rename to
MutualArt Group. I have done some sleuthing and have now updated the history section to reflect what is really going on. The sequence of companies was "Mutual Art" first, which was founded to operate the Artist Pension Trust, both in 2004. In 2008 Mutual Art started a web site, mutualart.com. There's lots of in-depth coverage on this 2008 MutualArt/Mutualart.com development (I am adding more as I work on it). Finally, in 2016 the Artist Pension Trust merged with Mutual Art and the new entity is called "MutualArt Group".
Given the excellent coverage on
Artist Pension Trust, it obviously merits it own article. My !vote to ke*p this article (Mutual Art) rests on the fact that the Mutual Art is the parent group and there seems to be lots of independent coverage of its work (
example). Its website seems to have been an innovator. The current name of the article should be changed to
MutualArt Group or similar, and include coverage of mutualart.com.
Possibly (
talk)
04:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete – the sources added by Possibly seem more or less undigested press releases and/or more about the
Artist Pension Trust than about MutualArt.com. A truly independent secondary source exclusively about MutualArt.com seems to be missing. I'd support a merge to the Artist Pension Trust (APT) article, if that were the name after the merger. It isn't. The name of the company after the merger is
MutualArt Group of which both APT and MutualArt.com are brands or branches. How quaky the business model is has been highlighted in independent secondary sources. Neither Artist Pension Trust nor MutualArt.com should be stand-alone articles. Both can be redirects to MutualArt Group, but as long as that article doesn't exist, MutualArt.com should simply be deleted. It is a commercial website with little independent coverage, despite the florid language in its press releases. --
Francis Schonken (
talk)
13:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Francis Schonken: What you are suggeting is not entirely clear. You say delete but then say "Artist Pension Trust nor MutualArt.com should be stand-alone articles. Both can be redirects to MutualArt Group. So rename?
Possibly (
talk)
16:00, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I left out the closing quotation mark and the first word. You say delete but then say "neither Artist Pension Trust nor MutualArt.com should be stand-alone articles. Both can be redirects to MutualArt Group." I am still not clear on what it is you are suggesting. Anyway.
Possibly (
talk)
16:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I suggest to delete MutualArt.com. If the hints I gave regarding a possible solution (which would mean that MutualArt.com could possibly be turned into a redirect without moving it anywhere) are incomprehensible, then, yes, truly, I mean "delete". --
Francis Schonken (
talk)
16:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Really?
MutualArt Group doesn't exist: it is not possible to redirect to a non-existing article. I oppose *moving* MutualArt.com to MutualArt Group while the MutualArt.com article is about near to nothing. The rest is about the current
Artist Pension Trust article, which is not under discussion here... but which is also no longer a current company name (so moving that one to its current company name seems OK to me, but that is not under discussion here). --
Francis Schonken (
talk)
16:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
@
Falcon Kirtaran: If I'm not mistaken, Mutualart acquired (
or it may have founded) the APT. Part of the problem here (hopefully this will be corrected in the AfD process) is that the connection and history of the entities "Artist Pension Trust", "Mutualart.com", "mutualart" and "Mutualart Group" is not clear. It is certainly not correctly or clearly stated in our articles.
Possibly (
talk)
03:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I think we will be OK with one article on Mutual Art, the parent company, and one on the Artist Pension Trust. I have been expanding the article and am having no trouble finding good sourcing on MutualArt and mutualart.com. More in my !vote below.
Possibly (
talk)
04:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep, but rename to
MutualArt Group. I have done some sleuthing and have now updated the history section to reflect what is really going on. The sequence of companies was "Mutual Art" first, which was founded to operate the Artist Pension Trust, both in 2004. In 2008 Mutual Art started a web site, mutualart.com. There's lots of in-depth coverage on this 2008 MutualArt/Mutualart.com development (I am adding more as I work on it). Finally, in 2016 the Artist Pension Trust merged with Mutual Art and the new entity is called "MutualArt Group".
Given the excellent coverage on
Artist Pension Trust, it obviously merits it own article. My !vote to ke*p this article (Mutual Art) rests on the fact that the Mutual Art is the parent group and there seems to be lots of independent coverage of its work (
example). Its website seems to have been an innovator. The current name of the article should be changed to
MutualArt Group or similar, and include coverage of mutualart.com.
Possibly (
talk)
04:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete – the sources added by Possibly seem more or less undigested press releases and/or more about the
Artist Pension Trust than about MutualArt.com. A truly independent secondary source exclusively about MutualArt.com seems to be missing. I'd support a merge to the Artist Pension Trust (APT) article, if that were the name after the merger. It isn't. The name of the company after the merger is
MutualArt Group of which both APT and MutualArt.com are brands or branches. How quaky the business model is has been highlighted in independent secondary sources. Neither Artist Pension Trust nor MutualArt.com should be stand-alone articles. Both can be redirects to MutualArt Group, but as long as that article doesn't exist, MutualArt.com should simply be deleted. It is a commercial website with little independent coverage, despite the florid language in its press releases. --
Francis Schonken (
talk)
13:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Francis Schonken: What you are suggeting is not entirely clear. You say delete but then say "Artist Pension Trust nor MutualArt.com should be stand-alone articles. Both can be redirects to MutualArt Group. So rename?
Possibly (
talk)
16:00, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I left out the closing quotation mark and the first word. You say delete but then say "neither Artist Pension Trust nor MutualArt.com should be stand-alone articles. Both can be redirects to MutualArt Group." I am still not clear on what it is you are suggesting. Anyway.
Possibly (
talk)
16:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I suggest to delete MutualArt.com. If the hints I gave regarding a possible solution (which would mean that MutualArt.com could possibly be turned into a redirect without moving it anywhere) are incomprehensible, then, yes, truly, I mean "delete". --
Francis Schonken (
talk)
16:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Really?
MutualArt Group doesn't exist: it is not possible to redirect to a non-existing article. I oppose *moving* MutualArt.com to MutualArt Group while the MutualArt.com article is about near to nothing. The rest is about the current
Artist Pension Trust article, which is not under discussion here... but which is also no longer a current company name (so moving that one to its current company name seems OK to me, but that is not under discussion here). --
Francis Schonken (
talk)
16:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.