- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. slakr\ talk / 14:11, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Munshi Habib ur Rehman Kapurthalwi ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No verifiable indications that this person meets the criteria for inclusion. Although claimed as a "chieftain" of Kapurhala State, there is no independent verification that he held any significant post in that government, and his role as an early adherent of the Ahmadiyya movement, while possibly notable within that movement, is not generally notable. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 18:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 18:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: This is the kind of AfD discussion where one is always worried that one is missing something. I'm fairly sure that we quite often delete articles on notable Indian Muslims from a hundred years or so ago - but the difficulty, as in this case, is knowing what to look for to distinguish the notable from the non-notable ones, particularly as there are often a number of ways of transcribing Urdu (and other Indian) names or deciding which parts of a name are important. For instance, in this article, the nominator marked two references as failing verification. In both cases, I am almost entirely convinced that he was wrong to do so - but as, in one case, the subject's name is given as Hadhrat Munshi Habib ar-Rahman and, in the other, as Munshi Muhammad Habibur Rahman, Chieftain, Kapurthala, I can suggest no more than that he was insufficiently ingenious (and probably not to the point where it matters, as in both cases, this was just one name in a list). And, while I would point out that Kapurthalwi doesn't seem to have been an integral part of the subject's name (it just seems to mean from Kapurthala) and neither, probably, is Munshi, removing these before doing a search simply leaves one with far too many false positives (even before one allows for the different ways to spell or even divide up what is left of the name). And, if there are significant reliable sources, chances are that they are in Urdu anyway (and, by the way, I suspect that the description of the subject as "chieftain" is a mistranslation from Urdu - but I've no idea of what the correct translation would be). PWilkinson ( talk) 22:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten ( talk) 04:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Northamerica1000 (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I point out that, based on this user talk page, this article was created and recreated multiple times in 2010, and speedily deleted several times. (Although, clearly at least one deletion was improper as it was deleted as an unsourced BLP, but clearly, this person has been dead for over 80 years. However, also because this person has been dead for over 80 years, it is unlikely that their notability has changed any since 2010. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- Weak Delete, I agree almost entirely with User:PWilkinson, but that still unfortunately leaves us with an article that we can't verify. I'd rather delete this article with the proviso that it can be recreated if someone with good sources in Urdu (or another language) shows up, than run the risk of allowing a potentially inaccurate or hoaxy article to continue its existence. Lankiveil ( speak to me) 09:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC).
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. slakr\ talk / 14:11, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Munshi Habib ur Rehman Kapurthalwi ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No verifiable indications that this person meets the criteria for inclusion. Although claimed as a "chieftain" of Kapurhala State, there is no independent verification that he held any significant post in that government, and his role as an early adherent of the Ahmadiyya movement, while possibly notable within that movement, is not generally notable. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 18:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 18:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: This is the kind of AfD discussion where one is always worried that one is missing something. I'm fairly sure that we quite often delete articles on notable Indian Muslims from a hundred years or so ago - but the difficulty, as in this case, is knowing what to look for to distinguish the notable from the non-notable ones, particularly as there are often a number of ways of transcribing Urdu (and other Indian) names or deciding which parts of a name are important. For instance, in this article, the nominator marked two references as failing verification. In both cases, I am almost entirely convinced that he was wrong to do so - but as, in one case, the subject's name is given as Hadhrat Munshi Habib ar-Rahman and, in the other, as Munshi Muhammad Habibur Rahman, Chieftain, Kapurthala, I can suggest no more than that he was insufficiently ingenious (and probably not to the point where it matters, as in both cases, this was just one name in a list). And, while I would point out that Kapurthalwi doesn't seem to have been an integral part of the subject's name (it just seems to mean from Kapurthala) and neither, probably, is Munshi, removing these before doing a search simply leaves one with far too many false positives (even before one allows for the different ways to spell or even divide up what is left of the name). And, if there are significant reliable sources, chances are that they are in Urdu anyway (and, by the way, I suspect that the description of the subject as "chieftain" is a mistranslation from Urdu - but I've no idea of what the correct translation would be). PWilkinson ( talk) 22:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten ( talk) 04:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Northamerica1000 (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I point out that, based on this user talk page, this article was created and recreated multiple times in 2010, and speedily deleted several times. (Although, clearly at least one deletion was improper as it was deleted as an unsourced BLP, but clearly, this person has been dead for over 80 years. However, also because this person has been dead for over 80 years, it is unlikely that their notability has changed any since 2010. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 19:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- Weak Delete, I agree almost entirely with User:PWilkinson, but that still unfortunately leaves us with an article that we can't verify. I'd rather delete this article with the proviso that it can be recreated if someone with good sources in Urdu (or another language) shows up, than run the risk of allowing a potentially inaccurate or hoaxy article to continue its existence. Lankiveil ( speak to me) 09:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC).
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.