- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 22:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Matt Petgrave
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Matt Petgrave ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I can see this being a very toxic discussion and I will probably be harassed by IPs/new users for suggesting the deletion of this page but Petgrave is notable for only one event ( WP:BLP1E) and that is currently a highly problematic event to write about. The article was created on the assumption that Petgrave is the man arrested, which however likely is unconfirmed and breaches WP:SUSPECT. Adam Johnson played in the NHL so he had a minor element of notability before the tragedy. Petgrave only played minor league in North America and there was very little written about his career before this event happened, so he is not notable as a sportsman. If he is, then level the page up with sources about his North American career, dating from before October 2023. The event for which he is known is under investigation and due process applies, there is no WP:DEADLINE. A person being known for the death of another person does not merit an own article. When/if Petgrave features in documentaries or is portrayed in many books and films about the death on the ice, then we can say that "his role was both substantial and well documented" which is an exception for WP:BLP1E. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 23:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- I was actually working on adding his career stats and when I went to post it I lost everything because of the deletion notice. I understand why the article is up for deletion, in fact I was trying to improve the article before it gets deleted. Sadly, I lost all my edits. Thank you for posting the reasons for deletion, as I was unaware of them prior to editing the article. Winni134 ( talk) 00:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: I agree with the others saying that Petgrave is notable, and I do think we should keep the page but we should remove claims that he was arrested for Johnson's death until we have confirmation from a reliable source.
Snickerdoodle12 (
talk)
01:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. He's notable for both his amount of penalties as well as his involvement in the injury, which is pretty rare for the sport of hockey. I haven't found any confirmation that Petgrave was the one arrested, but NewsNation has been reported that the person arrested is "a professional hockey player", which seems to insinuate that the person arrested is indeed Petgrave. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 13:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: This player plays for a notable team in a notable league. Over 15 years, he has played for a number of notable teams in notable leagues. Many players in these teams are notable for just playing in these teams, so is he. He was notable before the incident with Adam Johnson. Here are just some sources about him (many featuring him) from before the 2023 incident:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0g1mwxh https://chl.ca/ohl-attack/matt-petgrave-named-ohl-player-of-the-week/ https://prohockeynews.com/defensive-pairing-back-with-steelers/ https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/not-everyone-appears-to-be-a-fan-of-sheffield-steelers-star-matt-petgrave-3878459 https://theahl.com/stats/player/6947 https://www.nbcsports.com/nhl/matt-petgrave/00000188-9cf1-da6b-abd8-fcfd9a560240 https://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/6234/ https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/3140872/matt-petgrave/ https://www.floridaeverblades.com/news/2020/12/everblades-add-defenseman-matt-petgrave https://www.uticacomets.com/news/detail/canucks-recall-brisebois-comets-sign-matt-petgrave https://capitalsoutsider.com/2013/09/05/catching-matt-petgrave/ https://uk.news.yahoo.com/steelers-top-defensive-pairing-signs-050000047.html https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/1648804/Matt-Walls-scary-crash-fan-blood-Commonwealth-Games https://theathletic.com/206515/2018/02/02/in-one-my-four-insane-days-trapped-in-minor-hockey-hell-with-the-brampton-beast/
I started this page. Topjur01 ( talk) 00:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Ice hockey, England, and Canada. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
DraftifyUNLESS a rehaul of the page gets done, in which I will support. I researched Matt Petgrave earlier when the incident was still fresh on everyone's minds and I believe along with the sources in the article and other sources I have found online that Petgrave is notable, passes WP:GNG and deserves an article. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 00:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- Happy to vote Keep now after improvements to the article. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 00:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment / Soft Oppose: I was a little mixed at first but after some consideration, Petgrave meets notability criteria as a professional athlete who has played at least one game in the top professional sports league of a nation, and undeniably even moreso through his incident with Adam Johnson. But this article needs an overhaul and to be greatly expanded to better represent the subject matter, as it stands currently this is not an article up to the standards of Wikipedia.
Spilia4 (
talk)
00:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, in fact he does not meet notability criteria. Simple participation standards were deprecated from NSPORTS nearly two years ago, and playing top-flight matches in any sport meets no current criterion.
Ravenswing
02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- He was a first-team all-star in the ECHL and is listed on the article 2018–19 ECHL season. That seems to meet Criteria #2 at WP:NHOCKEY. Minnemeeples ( talk) 00:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, in fact he does not meet notability criteria. Simple participation standards were deprecated from NSPORTS nearly two years ago, and playing top-flight matches in any sport meets no current criterion.
Ravenswing
02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Draftify I agree with Kline. I think that Petgrave definitely possesses some amount of notability, but the article fails to really reflect that in a meaningful way. An overhaul is definitely necessary. EytanMelech ( talk) 01:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Draftify- The subject is notable but the article needs a lot of work before it should be moved to the mainspace. LM2000 ( talk) 01:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- I struck my previous !vote, it's okay to Keep now. The recent work done on the article is sufficient enough. LM2000 ( talk) 10:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- '''Keep'''. The subject was featured in The Atlantic (now part of the New York Times), BBC, Pro Hockey News, The Star, NBC Sports, Daily Express, etc. Clearly passes the notability standard. Regarding the draftifying vs. keeping, the page has been improved within the last few hours after most evaluators suggested it be moved to draftspace. It seems that it is quickly getting better. It is not perfect but it is good enough. Keep.
Tiberius1978 (
talk)
07:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Agree with above, doesn't need a whole lot of work to become a decent article. Definitely passes notability standards. Marleeashton ( talk) 08:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The relevant policy is WP:NHOCKEY. cagliost ( talk) 09:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Well, I did not think that this would be the AfD to bring me back to WIkipedia, kicking and screaming, but here I am. Disregarding witty remarks, Petgrave's notable, mainly due to playing in notable leagues, and has had many mentions of him outside of the Adam Johnson incident, as mentioned above in Topjur01's comment. IncompA 15:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I have found another source before the Adam Johnson incident. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0f5g03w IncompA 16:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The person was a notable hockey player prior to the incident. The article needs a chance for expansion not quick deletion. Minnemeeples ( talk) 17:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - there's enough significant coverage. Giant Snowman 19:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep He's a key participant in a very newsworthy event. 156.57.11.183 ( talk) 07:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep There are enough SIGCOV sources unrelated to the BLP1E event to pass GNG. As an aside remember that NHOCKEY is just that the subject is likely to be notable, per question #2 at the top of WP:NSPORTS. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 00:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Textbook case of an article created after a notable incident in which a person was involved in, but that person isn't necessarily just notable for one event. The Slovak and Czech Extraliga, as well as the EIHL, are top-level leagues. Given the glut of sports articles out there, I think Petgrave would have cleared notability even before this incident. DarkSide830 ( talk) 04:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per all above. Even besides the Johnson incident, the Czech Extraliga is a significant-enough league to justify the article. The Kip 19:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - as a kind-of - reverse - WP:NOTMEMORIAL, this article complements the deceased's and gives a quick insight into professional players in their non-native countries, useful for drive-by readers.-- 82.13.47.210 ( talk) 14:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - Legitimately, probably the most well known NHL player in the world right now. There is not going to be any end to coverage on him in sight either. KatoKungLee ( talk) 05:52, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Even outside of the Johnson incident, Petgrave is well sourced for a sports article and there is no reason as to why his article should suddenly be deleted. SuperSkaterDude45 ( talk) 19:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 22:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Matt Petgrave
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Matt Petgrave ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I can see this being a very toxic discussion and I will probably be harassed by IPs/new users for suggesting the deletion of this page but Petgrave is notable for only one event ( WP:BLP1E) and that is currently a highly problematic event to write about. The article was created on the assumption that Petgrave is the man arrested, which however likely is unconfirmed and breaches WP:SUSPECT. Adam Johnson played in the NHL so he had a minor element of notability before the tragedy. Petgrave only played minor league in North America and there was very little written about his career before this event happened, so he is not notable as a sportsman. If he is, then level the page up with sources about his North American career, dating from before October 2023. The event for which he is known is under investigation and due process applies, there is no WP:DEADLINE. A person being known for the death of another person does not merit an own article. When/if Petgrave features in documentaries or is portrayed in many books and films about the death on the ice, then we can say that "his role was both substantial and well documented" which is an exception for WP:BLP1E. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 23:57, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- I was actually working on adding his career stats and when I went to post it I lost everything because of the deletion notice. I understand why the article is up for deletion, in fact I was trying to improve the article before it gets deleted. Sadly, I lost all my edits. Thank you for posting the reasons for deletion, as I was unaware of them prior to editing the article. Winni134 ( talk) 00:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: I agree with the others saying that Petgrave is notable, and I do think we should keep the page but we should remove claims that he was arrested for Johnson's death until we have confirmation from a reliable source.
Snickerdoodle12 (
talk)
01:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. He's notable for both his amount of penalties as well as his involvement in the injury, which is pretty rare for the sport of hockey. I haven't found any confirmation that Petgrave was the one arrested, but NewsNation has been reported that the person arrested is "a professional hockey player", which seems to insinuate that the person arrested is indeed Petgrave. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 13:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: This player plays for a notable team in a notable league. Over 15 years, he has played for a number of notable teams in notable leagues. Many players in these teams are notable for just playing in these teams, so is he. He was notable before the incident with Adam Johnson. Here are just some sources about him (many featuring him) from before the 2023 incident:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0g1mwxh https://chl.ca/ohl-attack/matt-petgrave-named-ohl-player-of-the-week/ https://prohockeynews.com/defensive-pairing-back-with-steelers/ https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/not-everyone-appears-to-be-a-fan-of-sheffield-steelers-star-matt-petgrave-3878459 https://theahl.com/stats/player/6947 https://www.nbcsports.com/nhl/matt-petgrave/00000188-9cf1-da6b-abd8-fcfd9a560240 https://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/6234/ https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/3140872/matt-petgrave/ https://www.floridaeverblades.com/news/2020/12/everblades-add-defenseman-matt-petgrave https://www.uticacomets.com/news/detail/canucks-recall-brisebois-comets-sign-matt-petgrave https://capitalsoutsider.com/2013/09/05/catching-matt-petgrave/ https://uk.news.yahoo.com/steelers-top-defensive-pairing-signs-050000047.html https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/1648804/Matt-Walls-scary-crash-fan-blood-Commonwealth-Games https://theathletic.com/206515/2018/02/02/in-one-my-four-insane-days-trapped-in-minor-hockey-hell-with-the-brampton-beast/
I started this page. Topjur01 ( talk) 00:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Ice hockey, England, and Canada. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
DraftifyUNLESS a rehaul of the page gets done, in which I will support. I researched Matt Petgrave earlier when the incident was still fresh on everyone's minds and I believe along with the sources in the article and other sources I have found online that Petgrave is notable, passes WP:GNG and deserves an article. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 00:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- Happy to vote Keep now after improvements to the article. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 00:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment / Soft Oppose: I was a little mixed at first but after some consideration, Petgrave meets notability criteria as a professional athlete who has played at least one game in the top professional sports league of a nation, and undeniably even moreso through his incident with Adam Johnson. But this article needs an overhaul and to be greatly expanded to better represent the subject matter, as it stands currently this is not an article up to the standards of Wikipedia.
Spilia4 (
talk)
00:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, in fact he does not meet notability criteria. Simple participation standards were deprecated from NSPORTS nearly two years ago, and playing top-flight matches in any sport meets no current criterion.
Ravenswing
02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- He was a first-team all-star in the ECHL and is listed on the article 2018–19 ECHL season. That seems to meet Criteria #2 at WP:NHOCKEY. Minnemeeples ( talk) 00:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- No, in fact he does not meet notability criteria. Simple participation standards were deprecated from NSPORTS nearly two years ago, and playing top-flight matches in any sport meets no current criterion.
Ravenswing
02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Draftify I agree with Kline. I think that Petgrave definitely possesses some amount of notability, but the article fails to really reflect that in a meaningful way. An overhaul is definitely necessary. EytanMelech ( talk) 01:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Draftify- The subject is notable but the article needs a lot of work before it should be moved to the mainspace. LM2000 ( talk) 01:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)- I struck my previous !vote, it's okay to Keep now. The recent work done on the article is sufficient enough. LM2000 ( talk) 10:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- '''Keep'''. The subject was featured in The Atlantic (now part of the New York Times), BBC, Pro Hockey News, The Star, NBC Sports, Daily Express, etc. Clearly passes the notability standard. Regarding the draftifying vs. keeping, the page has been improved within the last few hours after most evaluators suggested it be moved to draftspace. It seems that it is quickly getting better. It is not perfect but it is good enough. Keep.
Tiberius1978 (
talk)
07:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Agree with above, doesn't need a whole lot of work to become a decent article. Definitely passes notability standards. Marleeashton ( talk) 08:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The relevant policy is WP:NHOCKEY. cagliost ( talk) 09:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Well, I did not think that this would be the AfD to bring me back to WIkipedia, kicking and screaming, but here I am. Disregarding witty remarks, Petgrave's notable, mainly due to playing in notable leagues, and has had many mentions of him outside of the Adam Johnson incident, as mentioned above in Topjur01's comment. IncompA 15:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I have found another source before the Adam Johnson incident. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0f5g03w IncompA 16:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The person was a notable hockey player prior to the incident. The article needs a chance for expansion not quick deletion. Minnemeeples ( talk) 17:10, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - there's enough significant coverage. Giant Snowman 19:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep He's a key participant in a very newsworthy event. 156.57.11.183 ( talk) 07:17, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep There are enough SIGCOV sources unrelated to the BLP1E event to pass GNG. As an aside remember that NHOCKEY is just that the subject is likely to be notable, per question #2 at the top of WP:NSPORTS. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 00:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Textbook case of an article created after a notable incident in which a person was involved in, but that person isn't necessarily just notable for one event. The Slovak and Czech Extraliga, as well as the EIHL, are top-level leagues. Given the glut of sports articles out there, I think Petgrave would have cleared notability even before this incident. DarkSide830 ( talk) 04:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per all above. Even besides the Johnson incident, the Czech Extraliga is a significant-enough league to justify the article. The Kip 19:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - as a kind-of - reverse - WP:NOTMEMORIAL, this article complements the deceased's and gives a quick insight into professional players in their non-native countries, useful for drive-by readers.-- 82.13.47.210 ( talk) 14:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - Legitimately, probably the most well known NHL player in the world right now. There is not going to be any end to coverage on him in sight either. KatoKungLee ( talk) 05:52, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Even outside of the Johnson incident, Petgrave is well sourced for a sports article and there is no reason as to why his article should suddenly be deleted. SuperSkaterDude45 ( talk) 19:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.