The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. As there has been no additional contributions in the past two weeks, I am closing this as a no consensus as no appetite to discuss to a conclusion appears to be present. A merger of this and various articles not nominated at AFD has been suggested, but I will leave that to editors to discuss outside of this forum as they wish. KaisaL ( talk) 15:52, 2 July 2016 (UTC) reply

Manchester Universities Guild of Change Ringers

Manchester Universities Guild of Change Ringers (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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I prodded it with the following rationale: "The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (companies) requirement. " It was deprodded by the creator, User:Oosoom, with the following rationale "rm PROD with intention to supply reference for record breaking 360 method peal". I am afraid, however, that even with the new refs this article fails to show notability. The references included do not suggest that this organization has received in-depth coverage; and a passing mention here or there does not suffice. If the coverage has been in-depth, links or scans would be appreciated for verification. Also, The Ringing World is a very niche source and likely fails Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#Audience. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:37, 7 June 2016 (UTC) reply

• Keep Bellringing, within the scope of this discussion, is an activity in many countries, including Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa and the US as well as the UK.

The Central Council of Church Bell Ringers (CCCBR) [1] is the representative body for bellringing and has affiliated societies in many countries: South African Guild of Church Bell Ringers, The North American Guild of Change Ringers, the Irish Association, The Australian and New Zealand Association of Bellringers, Ladies' Guild of Change Ringers (international), Associazione Suonatori di Campane a Sistema Veronese (Italy).

The CCCBR decides the technical specifications for ringing methods, compositions and “world records”, much as an international sporting body.

The Ringing World [2] is the official journal of that organisation, reporting ringing performances (all peals, worldwide) and world records. The CCCBR and The Ringing World are therefore of worldwide notability and authority.

Manchester Universities Guild of Change Ringers has been repeatedly mentioned in this official journal and has been a pioneering organization in the advancement of the science/sport of bellringing. As many of the achievements and activities of this society predate the internet they are not readily discovered by a search engine!    Oosoom  ^Talk  11:34, 7 June 2016 (UTC) reply

• • Today many sources are digitized, and accessible on Google Books or such. But I agree it is not required. What is is the confirmation that there are sources with in-depth coverage. I will repeat my request for scans of the Ringing World articles so we can confirm they are, well, in-depth. Whether the publication itself is able to confer notability is an interesting topic, again, in light of Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#Audience. But first, let's ensure we have this in-depth coverage, shall we? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC) reply
    • I cannot provide you with scans of the Ringing World as it is a copyright publication. I cannot find it on Google Books. Back copies to the year 2000 are available for purchase as PDF scans on DVD.    Oosoom  ^Talk  15:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC) reply
      • You can provide me with such scans under fair use. You can alternatively provide a more detailed description of those articles, such confirming they are in-depth, and telling us the paragraph/word count. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:47, 10 June 2016 (UTC) reply
        • Looking only at the 1974 volume of The Ringing World I have uploaded fair-use pages to demonstrate the standing, composition, performance and world record setting achievements of the MUCCR: File:RW MUG peal 100 Triples world first 14jun74.jpg, File:RW MUG notice of long length attempt 5 july 1974.jpg, File:RW MUG attending CCCBR meeting 22mar74.jpg, File:RW MUG peal 360 Triples world first 26july74.jpg, File:RW MUG composition original royal 1114 bobs and 18 singles HMMcN handbells 3may74.jpg, File:RW MUG peal composed mcws hmmcn 18jan74.jpg, File:RW MUG peal MUG Major 19apr74.jpg. There are many other performances and mentions even in this one year. The MUGCR have operated from 1948 to the present.    Oosoom  ^Talk  18:23, 11 June 2016 (UTC) reply
          • I do appreciate the scans, but the coverage that I can (barely) see in those scans does not seem to be in-depth. (And I still have concerns whether coverage limited to this publication alone is sufficient). Let's see if anyone else will comment. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:11, 12 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  15:20, 7 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  15:20, 7 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 13:58, 8 June 2016 (UTC) reply

• Comment Sources have been found establishing Ringing World as a long-running major magazine for this type of percussion, hence it seems a reliable source. All the scans taken together (thank you Oosoom for those!) might be in depth, but there isn't a lot about the guild beyond notes on performances and people involved. In addition, MUGCR is listed in a couple of national level bell ringing directories [3], [4]. Hence the guild is of some note. But I haven't been able to find in-depth news articles or documentaries about it. Basic facts are verifiable, but I haven't found a good merge target. Reluctant delete at this point, but I will keep looking. -- Mark viking ( talk) 13:14, 12 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Indeed. Nobody is disputing that the guild exists, the problem is that it does not appear to be important enough ( WP:N, WP:NORG) to be included in an encyclopedia, which after all is not Yellow Pages. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:18, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply
• Comment I looked at Category:Bell ringing societies in England, and frankly, the articles there all seem to fail notability policies (some more then others, ex. Oxford Society of Change Ringers). I agree with User:Mark viking that it would be good to save them. I'd encourage User:Oosoom, who seems to be interested in those topics, to consider merging all of them into Bell ringing societies in England. Individual societies may not be notable, but their grouping, as a whole, is more likely to be encyclopedic. If no such merge is done, I intend to, reluctantly, review and likely nominate for deletion each of the remaining organizations in this category. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:22, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.