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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle ( talk) 15:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC) reply

MC Shadow

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MC Shadow (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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This article is 10 years old, but seems to bear the hallmarks of an elaborate publicity project that fails WP:NBAND.

The editor who created and still primarily maintains this article is very obviously the subject itself. All of the Commons images depicting this person, some of which go back to the late 1980s, were uploaded by this user and are tagged as "own work." The user has admitted that he owns the rights to the subject and its associated band as well. Going through the edit history of the article, this editor and some IPs with similar editing habits are the only ones who have been able to contribute anything substantial to this article, and the only other significant changes to content have been to remove puffery or unverified claims.

As a BLP, this article is very problematic as so much of it is either unreferenced, or based on very dubious sources. Going through the list of references:

  • Parts of the lead, which include the artist's WP:CCS of being the world's second white rapper, are attributed to a "distribution agreement" from 1988 that does not seem to be publicly accessible in any form.
  • The early history of this subject is completely unreferenced and searches for key terms such as "Def Force Sound Crew" and "MC Rumble" don't turn up any results connecting them to the subject.
  • The 1988 section attributes the subject's presence on a local chart to the home page of "East Park Productions" - an organization connected to the subject - and attributes a claim about a record being on "a list of most collectible Toronto albums" to an WP:SPS.
  • The 2014 section is mostly unreferenced while making claims that a video project apparently titled "Resurrection" was un undertaking of "the first of its kind in any music genre." I was unable to find any objective evidence of this other than the student paper which one part has cited.
  • The "Collaborations" section says that the subject has collaborated with a number of other artists, but uses references to the Juno Awards and an associated Vancouver Sun publication which have absolutely nothing to do with the subject itself.

I counted two sources that could potentially establish notability, but I'm unable to find the source content, and I doubt that it's enough to substantiate an article of this length.

On top of this, I've identified three other articles related to this subject which, in my opinion, should be deleted in tandem:

East Park Productions, Get Loose Crew and Get Loose Crew (album) were created by the same user, and describe, respectively, a record label founded and operated by "MC Shadow," and then the band and associated debut album in which "MC Shadow" participated. Much of the information overlaps with the MC Shadow article. Bizarrely, the East Park article has no references at all except one to the same student paper mentioned above, and the other articles rely on several of the same poor sources used in the MC Shadow article. I found nothing in an internet search that would establish notability for an article for any of them. — {Canuck lehead} 23:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC) reply

DELETE: no independent coverage The Ace in Spades ( talk) 01:43, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 09:44, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 09:44, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Delete all - COI issues aside, this clearly fails WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:GNG Spiderone 09:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to his marginally more notable group Get Loose Crew, although their article needs a lot of work too. As the nominator found, all the articles were created by the same person and share the same problems, including sizable chunks of repeated text. Mr. Shadow had a few solo activities but none attracted any reliable media interest, and he has achieved little outside the group. His article is dependent on sources that are actually about Get Loose Crew or other people with whom he briefly collaborated, and the whole thing is probably copied from an old promotional website. And finally, do not confuse this guy with the far more notable DJ Shadow. DOOMSDAYER520 | TALK | CONTRIBS 22:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Mergeand redirect all per Doomsdayer520. ♟♙ ( talk) 16:01, 2 November 2020 (UTC) reply

As the contributor, I am going to present information to support keeping the topic intact and not deleting, as soon as possible and within this time allotted period of review. I have responded in great detail to the assertion or suggestion made that I am the Topic. In short, I am not. I have reviewed the terms with respect to potential or actual COI and I have none. Due to the harsh severity of nominating this topic for deletion, I will be responding properly, appropriately and with the greatest of respect to something that I feel has been mischaracterized and misrepresented. This is not a job and I am not a professional writer, editor etc. I am just a person with interest in this topic and some related ones and I have enjoyed being a contributor and very amateur writer on this and related topics. Its (respectfully) a hobby and I have to take time to put together as much supportive points that are relevant to support NOT DELETING this topic. Also, the other 2 topics. Thank you Oldschoolmc ( talk) 19:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC) reply

  • Delete, or at best merge into Get Loose Crew per nom (if Get Loose Crew is a viable article itself, which is debatable). If all the uncited text and tables is disregarded or removed, we are left with a very small amount of text with sources that are either self-referencing (by the band or this subject), don't or only marginally mention this person, and are from blog or unreliable sites, not from multiple reliable or nationally recognized publications. This 'article' (a thinly disguised promo piece), has been around for ten years... over long enough to provide any evidence that the subject is notable. If a decision is made to keep this BLP, it would require a complete flush out of the unsourced, leaving it for the readers a very insubstantial and unenlightening stub, which might be eligible for a merge somewhere. Acabashi ( talk) 14:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC) reply
I have added a non-notability head template to East Park Productions, Get Loose Crew and Get Loose Crew (album), identified by the nominator above, adding a rationale, and link to this page, on the Talk Pages, to perhaps find further contributors to this discussion. Acabashi ( talk) 12:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC) reply

KEEP: I am responding directly to the suggestions, assertions and am I providing substantive positions, explanations and defence to the nomination proposed, and to NOT have the article deleted at this time. I am just a person who was interested writing and making contributions as a quasi editor, and felt kind of important and relevant about writing about a topic (creating articles), that I have a genuine interest in. I didn’t expect to have unverified attacks or negative assertions hurled at me. Or be bombarded with a lot of negativity and really abrasive suggestions and accusations. I am responding in length to each point made by the requestor to delete based upon their original points in the nomination for deletion. I have communicated to the subject via email and informed him as to what is happening with his Wikipedia page and the related topics. I have asked him to provide any new material sources that can be verified for inclusion to support NOT having the page deleted. I thank you in advance for your patience. My responses are in italics. ASSERTION - This article is 10 years old, but seems to bear the hallmarks of an elaborate publicity project that fails WP:NBAND. REBUTTAL - It is not a publicity project or effort to sell services or advertise for services. Whether it is weak or requires improvement, it is and has always been as intended – a Topic of a relevant person, who’s accomplishment has been researched, subject of university study, interviewed and otherwise documented and supported by sources by credible and notable academics, journalists, music industry professionals, and scholars a) Graduate School Researcher and former Vancouver DJ that played his music in the 1990’s and interviewed the subject and others as identified as local pioneers that played a crucial role in developing the local (Toronto) scene, b) An adjunct professor at Toronto's Ryerson University, as well as the founder of Northside Hip Hop Archive whom is a contact to the person (artist) and surrounding artists, hosted the TDot Pioneers Exhibit collected and displayed artifacts and information related to the artist on his organization’s website and his knowledge of the Canadian/Toronto hip hop music scene. The Topic person discussed here was an attendee and photographic proof shows him with other pioneer individuals that established hip hop in Toronto. I don’t know these individuals or how to contact them but know of their performances and presence on radio and video in Toronto. c) A postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute, University of Toronto. conducting academic Research study that traces the history of Toronto Hip Hop, and the relationship that Hip Hop practitioners and industry professionals have had to the music marketplace and creative industries in both the City of Toronto and Canada. Invited the person (artist/topic) to participate in this research because (quote from copy of release issued from the University of Toronto) “he has been identified as prominent member of Toronto’s Hip Hop history and the history of Canada’s culture industries.” This research project, which will focus on the historical period of 1985 – 2020 and include the interview material of 50 participants, will explore how the Toronto Hip Hop scene has unfolded over the past thirty-five years. 

This research conducted by Dr. Francesca D’Amico-Cuthbert a postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute – housed at the University of Toronto. A historian of Hip Hop culture and Black popular music to date, her published research has focused on the history of Hip Hop and Rap music (in both the United States and Canada), Hip Hop pedagogy and educational curriculum, and the history of other Black popular music forms such as Soul, Funk and Disco. *This latter section is from a document release form that was emailed to me by the subject that he has provided to the people doing the research.

Peripheral source information that would be included, (I have been researching and trying to obtain copies of include) An interview with (also a Topic) Maestro Fresh Wes (Wes Williams) on MTV (City Much Music Toronto) whereby he comments and acknowledges the accomplishment (details contained within Topic) on the ‘Get Loose Crew’ (related Topic) inclusive of the person/artist MC Shadow and also an Episode of ‘Narduwar’ (also a Topic) where he discussed and acknowledges the group (Topic Get Loose Crew) and (Topic MC Shadow) and is holding a copy of the groups 1988 release in his hand, in camera view. Research has been ongoing to identify the Episode, segment and specific time to cite as a reference in support of both topics. Independent writer and music critic Samantha Stevens (cited), Streetsound Publication contributor Jonbronski (cited Writer), and media interviews with Eric Tunney CBC Television show to be transcribed and Radio interview with (defunct) CKLN Ryerson University Radio personality and hip hop historian Radio Interview (to be transcribed) by Ron Nelson (Topic) CKLN radio. ASSERTION - The editor who created and still primarily maintains this article is very obviously the subject itself. REBUTTAL - The editor has made submissions since inception. The editor and author are not the subject itself and have been detailed in the Wiki section question COI. ASSERTION - All of the Commons images depicting this person, some of which go back to the late 1980s, were uploaded by this user and are tagged as "own work." REBUTTAL - The Commons items have been labeled own work both due to inexperience at the time of submission that was the choice to avoid constraints of potential copyright. Ignorance is not necessarily an excuse, but material asked for, received, or provided upon request of an individual or party for the purposes of submission can be construed or suggested own work. Simply because the copied material is now material in the possession of the editor as an individual. Copies were made to protect originals from being lost or destroyed. No foolish individual would provide a stranger ‘original works at the risk of loss or destruction. The error here on my part, is that the works should have been identified as; not an original document or file and is a copy provided for free use at the consent of the subject for furtherance of the article. The liability would befall the editor if the images or documents or files were obtained inappropriately and used without consent. I am pretty sure that a poor 1980’s rapper would be able to find a lawyer that would take up an opportunity to sue someone who exploited their image without consent – and has the documents to back that up. The files provided were non copyright free use material upon consent provided by the subject. This in turn grants me permission to use and or exploit the files provided to me as ‘copies provided with no expectation that they be returned’. If I were to profit by way of financial compensation, that protection would no longer extend to me based upon the representation (requests) originally made to obtain material to substantiate, support and include in the article. The copies supplied by the subject was indicated to him, on the basis that could substantiate existing lighter citation or demonstrate clarity to information and claims submitted. Nothing was submitted or provided by the subject that generates compensation or is an effort to sell the subject. ASSERTION - The user has admitted that he owns the rights to the subject and its associated band as well. REBUTTAL - The statement attributed to “owning the rights to the subject” is explicitly relating to mechanical exploitation or informal licencing through means of providing files, documents, media and access to sources (upon approval) to submit exclusively to the Wikipedia project. The editor (me) has no rights to exercise beyond that specifically, and other than any purchased or traded artifacts amongst Hip Hop enthusiasts of the day (flyers, material items, hats, clothing) which was frequently done. (I personally traded items back them with people and are some valuable collectables now for me). The other members of the band have all gone onto greater and successful pursuits; including being the first JUNO award winner for Rap Music in Canada and has its own controversy attached to the member whom is also a TOPIC in Wikipedia (BKool/Carl Badwa). The person who could be regarded as a ‘curator’ (Mr. Grant-Stuart) with substantial material and documents to lift up the Get Loose Crew article and in turn this one passed away late last year. Retrieving material from him or his estate is not possible. ASSERTION - Going through the edit history of the article, this editor and some IPs with similar editing habits are the only ones who have been able to contribute anything substantial to this article, and the only other significant changes to content have been to remove puffery or unverified claims. REBUTTAL - This in my opinion is a bit of a personal attack. It has sufficient negative tone, and is just not very nice. IP information is hardly reliance in any form of identification standard (I don’t believe the individual is suggesting that they are a Cybersecurity expert), and coupled with the suggestion of some analysis of editing habits? That’s a very precarious suggestion that should come from an Intelligence Analyst competent in identifying pattern of speech, written word, or similar forensics. I am being a little silly here, because this process and some of the hard line unpleasantries are … silly. I am not an academic, scholar or wizard on this platform or a well versed or skilled ‘editor’ as referred to. I am a person, who was very interested about writing about and gathering data about this subject. It’s a work in progress. Isn’t that what Wikipedia is supposed to be about? I appreciate standards and rules, but it kind of seems like a bit of an attack with desire of all out cancellation? ASSERTION - As a BLP, this article is very problematic as so much of it is either unreferenced, or based on very dubious sources. REBUTTAL - ‘Dubious’? Why such sinister tone? Is it necessary and is this attitude overall being a bit of an attack and not an effort to substantively review and question items to perhaps improve the article? Seems kind of harsh that its an ‘all or nothing’ ‘take it down’ and all other references to the subject. Seems destructive. Just my side thought.

Going through the list of references: • ASSERTION - Parts of the lead, which include the artist's WP:CCS of being the world's second white rapper, are attributed to a "distribution agreement" from 1988 that does not seem to be publicly accessible in any form. REBUTTAL - Its a duly executed contract registered in the province of Ontario and as an executed contract entered into, would be available and accessible publicly at any time upon request of the parties’ thorough counsel. I am sure that if anyone requested a copy of contract from either party (outside of subpoena) or court order, that could easily be done. Alternately, please direct me to where the image (approved by the subject) could be posted on Wikipedia to be viewed and confirmed. As I understand it some of the documents and other things they have will be put on their website. I do know that some of the content of the contract per se has been referenced in television media (referenced in this long response) but I can’t write that as ‘editor’ herein. That media is sought and appropriate references can and will be cited when available. • ASSERTION - The early history of this subject is completely unreferenced and searches for key terms such as "Def Force Sound Crew" and "MC Rumble" don't turn up any results connecting them to the subject. REBUTTAL - The name “Def Force Sound Crew" was related by the subject as a band or group that those guys were all in together before they released their record. This is common among rock bands, where they were one name and then another. I have seen on social media, crude media (subjective word) advertisements for that group’s performances at local shows, but nothing I felt that I could submit it. The other thing is much of this history from sources is just appearing. A person (not knowing) would really have to understand and appreciate the genre and political landscape. Simply put, many people in Toronto and Canada (if they even care) believe that Hip Hop and Rap began with Drake (Topic). Others believe it was before him but after 1991 with a subject called Kardinal Official. Some who think that they know their history really well think that its Maestro Fresh Wes (Topic) preceding him in 1990. The irony, is that this subject (Topic) precedes all of these people and on a historical scale. The subject has been acknowledged and validated by HIS PEERS through various accounts that are making their way in this organic article. As for the "MC Rumble", he is known as David Morgan by name and has been described by people as private and elusive. He rebuked the most recent spotlight at the CBC Hip Hop Summit a few years ago by walking around on stage, talking and then bizarrely leaving. He avoided any interviews and apparently disappeared from the event. MC Rumble has not released any material known of since the 1990’s and reference to him by the subject (in the article) was in response to questions surrounding, “What inspired or drew you to being a rapper” “What motivated you release your record” “What was the path like as a rapper to putting out a record”. It is clear that the subject was an independent artist and not on a major record label. There is information and history to account for this but it something anticipated in citing’s and supportive sources and not my account or received information. I have been doing my best to post information and not come off like the expert. Because simply, I am not. If that has created an image of “puffery’, then that is because I am not a true editor or biographer and have been trying to do my best in this community. • ASSERTION - The 1988 section attributes the subject's presence on a local chart to the home page of "East Park Productions" - an organization connected to the subject - and attributes a claim about a record being on "a list of most collectible Toronto albums" to an WP:SPS. REBUTTAL - The subject has responded to the question of “where is your East Park Productions website”, responding to the effect that it is apparently under construction and offline because it was old looking. A new webmaster is working on the new site. I surmise that would be where the cited reference will be viewable to confirm. The reference "a list of most collectible Toronto albums", is what I found during my internet research. It is called TO Blog and has a credentialed writer and is not a recreational hobby site. I have emailed and tried to contact the author of the article to no avail. They aren’t responding to enquiries. Even when I have indicated that I am a contributor to Wikipedia and are looking for some source support. • ASSERTION -The 2014 section is mostly unreferenced while making claims that a video project apparently titled "Resurrection" was un undertaking of "the first of its kind in any music genre." I was unable to find any objective evidence of this other than the student paper which one part has cited. REBUTTAL - I would go further to support your point and actually call this section ‘sloppy’, ‘haphazard’ and not my finest effort. I can attest to the statement separate from any comment by anyone that the project the subject is doing, and is not yet completed is truly and accurately one of a kind for any form of music. The fact is simple that nowhere in music by any group, band, or otherwise has anyone attempted or completed the project he is working on. It is not simply explained, and I had trouble understanding it at first, but it’s a project that once complete will have never been created before and is evidenced nowhere else currently. Please remember, that despite the source does not write for a major publication or renowned music media outlet that does not negate, disqualify or otherwise belittle their commentary. If it had been to the contrary and not supportive, perhaps these viewpoints would (presumably) be considered valid as “objective evidence”. • ASSERTION - The "Collaborations" section says that the subject has collaborated with a number of other artists, but uses references to the Juno Awards and an associated Vancouver Sun publication which have absolutely nothing to do with the subject itself. REBUTTAL - The collaborations section identifies an artist in Vancouver, his significance and JUNO success. The article and a refence to the JUNO awards specifically attribute to Nelson Garcia’s success as a collaborator whose art is the cover work for all of the subjects indicated releases. The Vancouver Sun is source to substantiate and to not negate the credibility of Mr. Garcia. Some of the other artists weblinks were removed by other editors, in particular Sarah Beatty, who has an interview with a reliable and credible source and discusses the subject and collaboration, etc. Its a double-edged sword. Links went up, links taken down. I understand this be an organic and developmental process, even when efforts to grow the article are shot down or taken down. ASSERTION - I counted two sources that could potentially establish notability, but I'm unable to find the source content, and I doubt that it's enough to substantiate an article of this length. REBUTTAL - There is respectfully sufficient source content and there is as with any process that is supposed to be community and contributory. At the risk of an even further response, I am confirming that the subject has identified at request by the editor in support of keeping this article any sources or updated information to assist. I am copying that information below and can also state that material ability to connect to it, request it, and verify it and the sources are forthcoming. First, Graduate School Researcher and former Vancouver DJ interviewed this person and others as identified as local pioneers that played a crucial role in developing the local (Toronto) scene, 2) An adjunct professor at Toronto's Ryerson University, as well as the founder of Northside Hip Hop Archive whom is a contact to the person (artist) and surrounding artists, hosted the TDot Pioneers Exhibit collected and displayed artifacts and information related to the artist on his organization’s website and his knowledge of the Canadian/Toronto hip hop music scene. The Topic person discussed here was an attendee and photographic proof shows him with other pioneer individuals that established hip hop in Toronto. I don’t know these individuals or how to contact them but know of their performances and presence on radio and video in Toronto. 3) A postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute, University of Toronto. conducting academic Research study that traces the history of Toronto Hip Hop, and the relationship that Hip Hop practitioners and industry professionals have had to the music marketplace and creative industries in both the City of Toronto and Canada. Invited the person (artist/topic) to participate in this research because (quote from release issued) “he has been identified as prominent member of Toronto’s Hip Hop history and the history of Canada’s culture industries.” This research project, which will focus on the historical period of 1985 – 2020 and include the interview material of 50 participants, will explore how the Toronto Hip Hop scene has unfolded over the past thirty-five years. This research conducted by Dr. Francesca D’Amico-Cuthbert a postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute – housed at the University of Toronto. A historian of Hip Hop culture and Black popular music to date, her published research has focused on the history of Hip Hop and Rap music (in both the United States and Canada), Hip Hop pedagogy and educational curriculum, and the history of other Black popular music forms such as Soul, Funk and Disco. *This latter section is from a document release form that was emailed to me by the person that he has provided to the people doing the research. A monolithic member of the earliest days of Hip Hop in Canada and undisputable source is writer, DJ and producer John 'Johnbronski' Adams who was a major figure in the early era of Toronto hip-hop music as credited by CBC (Canadian Broadcast Corporation). He is cited as a source who directly interviewed the subject, the other group members and establishes timeline and context to the article. This is a dated interview, with a now defunct publication. The information in the reference is taken from a supplied copy of the original magazine. Its condition is aged and there isn’t anywhere that I could establish posting it, other than a refence to the material I was supplied with. ASSERTION - On top of this, I've identified three other articles related to this subject which, in my opinion, should be deleted in tandem: East Park Productions, Get Loose Crew and Get Loose Crew (album) were created by the same user, and describe, respectively, a record label founded and operated by "MC Shadow," and then the band and associated debut album in which "MC Shadow" participated. Much of the information overlaps with the MC Shadow article. Bizarrely, the East Park article has no references at all except one to the same student paper mentioned above, and the other articles rely on several of the same poor sources used in the MC Shadow article. I found nothing in an internet search that would establish notability for an article for any of them. REBUTTAL – It is insulting to belittle the independent critical offering of Samantha Stevens as a student paper. Its certainly not a national publication, but it is a magazine (referred as such) and available online. Its certainly not a paper as characterized, and limited to a campus newspaper box or similar shelf or container. Again, that’s not very nice. Respectfully, I can explain the creation of East Park Productions easiest. As the only other independent Hip Hop label next to Beat Factory Productions in Toronto, I created the article as I felt that it would contribute and expand as an article with increased submission activity. I researched through Wikipedia other similar entities and with available information (weak or otherwise), set out to create this article for contribution and discussion. Get Loose Crew is the origin of subject, but the subject ultimately is the story and separated, grew and achieved outside of the contributions to that article. The most prominent articles are MC Shadow and The Get Loose Crew. They have significant separate relevancy. Some have been addressed in other articles by other artists one of the band members who has adopted other performance names and is a from of subject within 2 articles. All of this information is supported by significant credible developments and awakenings within the origins of this subject’s participation and existence in the Canadian music industry. Among much anticipated information to be submitted for review the boldest and compelling available source statement (retrieved on consent from the University of Toronto’s documentation on their letterhead) “he (the subject) has been identified as prominent member of Toronto’s Hip Hop history and the history of Canada’s culture industries.” And further stated to substantiate the timeline for the subject, “This research project, which will focus on the historical period of 1985 – 2020”. Citings (ref ref indicated below) are not present in this rebuttal at this time due to the deadline to formulate this response. All references contained in this response are VERIFIABLE. With extended time and an opportunity to communicate directly with all identified potential sources as to to the intent to destroy this topic, updated quality information could be provided. I would strongly assert that this topic and connected Get Loose Crew topic article are highly relevant and that this detailed response stands as a statement that bolsters support to other information to be presented and to NOT DELETE this article at this time. Oldschoolmc ( talk) 22:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Oldschoolmc: You really need to review Wikipedia's policies on notability, reliable sources and verifiability. These are the main reasons that a consensus is emerging in favor of deleting or redirecting these articles, and you aren't addressing these reasons. We aren't concerning ourselves with your opinions of the subject, or what the subject thinks. We are concerning ourselves with whether this article complies with Wikipedia policy, and so far, it clearly does not. Saying that something is true because other people have told you it is isn't reliable evidence. Simply saying that that sufficient source content exists without providing it to people who clearly can't find it is not helpful, because the unverifiable assertions of one editor aren't reliable evidence. Saying that there are mysteriously unreachable people who can vouch for the content in the article is hearsay, which isn't reliable evidence.
As for some of your other points:
  • The references to the EPP website and the Juno Awards are problems because they don't support the claims they are attached to. The EPP home page did not have any information about the chart mentioned in the article, and also counts as a primary source, which are generally unreliable. With the Juno mentions, we're not looking for evidence that another artist won a Juno, we're looking for evidence that "MC Shadow" collaborated with a Juno winner. You can't attribute a statement to a source that has no backing for that statement - that's simply gaming the system.
  • You mentioned "I have communicated to the subject via email and informed him as to what is happening with his Wikipedia page and the related topics." Collaborating with the subject(s) to achieve a specific outcome for their articles means you are editing with a conflict of interest. I will add that it's fine to do so as long as you are not being paid and that your edits comply with policy, but it's disingenuous to say that you don't have one, and then go and involve the subject in the process. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Wikipedia articles, especially biographies of living people, are intended to be entirely objective, and verifiable by third parties. The input of a subject doesn't count for anything unless it meets those criteria. — {Canuck lehead} 04:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/MC_Shadow&oldid=988015231"
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle ( talk) 15:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC) reply

MC Shadow

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MC Shadow (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This article is 10 years old, but seems to bear the hallmarks of an elaborate publicity project that fails WP:NBAND.

The editor who created and still primarily maintains this article is very obviously the subject itself. All of the Commons images depicting this person, some of which go back to the late 1980s, were uploaded by this user and are tagged as "own work." The user has admitted that he owns the rights to the subject and its associated band as well. Going through the edit history of the article, this editor and some IPs with similar editing habits are the only ones who have been able to contribute anything substantial to this article, and the only other significant changes to content have been to remove puffery or unverified claims.

As a BLP, this article is very problematic as so much of it is either unreferenced, or based on very dubious sources. Going through the list of references:

  • Parts of the lead, which include the artist's WP:CCS of being the world's second white rapper, are attributed to a "distribution agreement" from 1988 that does not seem to be publicly accessible in any form.
  • The early history of this subject is completely unreferenced and searches for key terms such as "Def Force Sound Crew" and "MC Rumble" don't turn up any results connecting them to the subject.
  • The 1988 section attributes the subject's presence on a local chart to the home page of "East Park Productions" - an organization connected to the subject - and attributes a claim about a record being on "a list of most collectible Toronto albums" to an WP:SPS.
  • The 2014 section is mostly unreferenced while making claims that a video project apparently titled "Resurrection" was un undertaking of "the first of its kind in any music genre." I was unable to find any objective evidence of this other than the student paper which one part has cited.
  • The "Collaborations" section says that the subject has collaborated with a number of other artists, but uses references to the Juno Awards and an associated Vancouver Sun publication which have absolutely nothing to do with the subject itself.

I counted two sources that could potentially establish notability, but I'm unable to find the source content, and I doubt that it's enough to substantiate an article of this length.

On top of this, I've identified three other articles related to this subject which, in my opinion, should be deleted in tandem:

East Park Productions, Get Loose Crew and Get Loose Crew (album) were created by the same user, and describe, respectively, a record label founded and operated by "MC Shadow," and then the band and associated debut album in which "MC Shadow" participated. Much of the information overlaps with the MC Shadow article. Bizarrely, the East Park article has no references at all except one to the same student paper mentioned above, and the other articles rely on several of the same poor sources used in the MC Shadow article. I found nothing in an internet search that would establish notability for an article for any of them. — {Canuck lehead} 23:57, 31 October 2020 (UTC) reply

DELETE: no independent coverage The Ace in Spades ( talk) 01:43, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 09:44, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 09:44, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Delete all - COI issues aside, this clearly fails WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:GNG Spiderone 09:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Redirect to his marginally more notable group Get Loose Crew, although their article needs a lot of work too. As the nominator found, all the articles were created by the same person and share the same problems, including sizable chunks of repeated text. Mr. Shadow had a few solo activities but none attracted any reliable media interest, and he has achieved little outside the group. His article is dependent on sources that are actually about Get Loose Crew or other people with whom he briefly collaborated, and the whole thing is probably copied from an old promotional website. And finally, do not confuse this guy with the far more notable DJ Shadow. DOOMSDAYER520 | TALK | CONTRIBS 22:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC) reply
  • Mergeand redirect all per Doomsdayer520. ♟♙ ( talk) 16:01, 2 November 2020 (UTC) reply

As the contributor, I am going to present information to support keeping the topic intact and not deleting, as soon as possible and within this time allotted period of review. I have responded in great detail to the assertion or suggestion made that I am the Topic. In short, I am not. I have reviewed the terms with respect to potential or actual COI and I have none. Due to the harsh severity of nominating this topic for deletion, I will be responding properly, appropriately and with the greatest of respect to something that I feel has been mischaracterized and misrepresented. This is not a job and I am not a professional writer, editor etc. I am just a person with interest in this topic and some related ones and I have enjoyed being a contributor and very amateur writer on this and related topics. Its (respectfully) a hobby and I have to take time to put together as much supportive points that are relevant to support NOT DELETING this topic. Also, the other 2 topics. Thank you Oldschoolmc ( talk) 19:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC) reply

  • Delete, or at best merge into Get Loose Crew per nom (if Get Loose Crew is a viable article itself, which is debatable). If all the uncited text and tables is disregarded or removed, we are left with a very small amount of text with sources that are either self-referencing (by the band or this subject), don't or only marginally mention this person, and are from blog or unreliable sites, not from multiple reliable or nationally recognized publications. This 'article' (a thinly disguised promo piece), has been around for ten years... over long enough to provide any evidence that the subject is notable. If a decision is made to keep this BLP, it would require a complete flush out of the unsourced, leaving it for the readers a very insubstantial and unenlightening stub, which might be eligible for a merge somewhere. Acabashi ( talk) 14:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC) reply
I have added a non-notability head template to East Park Productions, Get Loose Crew and Get Loose Crew (album), identified by the nominator above, adding a rationale, and link to this page, on the Talk Pages, to perhaps find further contributors to this discussion. Acabashi ( talk) 12:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC) reply

KEEP: I am responding directly to the suggestions, assertions and am I providing substantive positions, explanations and defence to the nomination proposed, and to NOT have the article deleted at this time. I am just a person who was interested writing and making contributions as a quasi editor, and felt kind of important and relevant about writing about a topic (creating articles), that I have a genuine interest in. I didn’t expect to have unverified attacks or negative assertions hurled at me. Or be bombarded with a lot of negativity and really abrasive suggestions and accusations. I am responding in length to each point made by the requestor to delete based upon their original points in the nomination for deletion. I have communicated to the subject via email and informed him as to what is happening with his Wikipedia page and the related topics. I have asked him to provide any new material sources that can be verified for inclusion to support NOT having the page deleted. I thank you in advance for your patience. My responses are in italics. ASSERTION - This article is 10 years old, but seems to bear the hallmarks of an elaborate publicity project that fails WP:NBAND. REBUTTAL - It is not a publicity project or effort to sell services or advertise for services. Whether it is weak or requires improvement, it is and has always been as intended – a Topic of a relevant person, who’s accomplishment has been researched, subject of university study, interviewed and otherwise documented and supported by sources by credible and notable academics, journalists, music industry professionals, and scholars a) Graduate School Researcher and former Vancouver DJ that played his music in the 1990’s and interviewed the subject and others as identified as local pioneers that played a crucial role in developing the local (Toronto) scene, b) An adjunct professor at Toronto's Ryerson University, as well as the founder of Northside Hip Hop Archive whom is a contact to the person (artist) and surrounding artists, hosted the TDot Pioneers Exhibit collected and displayed artifacts and information related to the artist on his organization’s website and his knowledge of the Canadian/Toronto hip hop music scene. The Topic person discussed here was an attendee and photographic proof shows him with other pioneer individuals that established hip hop in Toronto. I don’t know these individuals or how to contact them but know of their performances and presence on radio and video in Toronto. c) A postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute, University of Toronto. conducting academic Research study that traces the history of Toronto Hip Hop, and the relationship that Hip Hop practitioners and industry professionals have had to the music marketplace and creative industries in both the City of Toronto and Canada. Invited the person (artist/topic) to participate in this research because (quote from copy of release issued from the University of Toronto) “he has been identified as prominent member of Toronto’s Hip Hop history and the history of Canada’s culture industries.” This research project, which will focus on the historical period of 1985 – 2020 and include the interview material of 50 participants, will explore how the Toronto Hip Hop scene has unfolded over the past thirty-five years. 

This research conducted by Dr. Francesca D’Amico-Cuthbert a postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute – housed at the University of Toronto. A historian of Hip Hop culture and Black popular music to date, her published research has focused on the history of Hip Hop and Rap music (in both the United States and Canada), Hip Hop pedagogy and educational curriculum, and the history of other Black popular music forms such as Soul, Funk and Disco. *This latter section is from a document release form that was emailed to me by the subject that he has provided to the people doing the research.

Peripheral source information that would be included, (I have been researching and trying to obtain copies of include) An interview with (also a Topic) Maestro Fresh Wes (Wes Williams) on MTV (City Much Music Toronto) whereby he comments and acknowledges the accomplishment (details contained within Topic) on the ‘Get Loose Crew’ (related Topic) inclusive of the person/artist MC Shadow and also an Episode of ‘Narduwar’ (also a Topic) where he discussed and acknowledges the group (Topic Get Loose Crew) and (Topic MC Shadow) and is holding a copy of the groups 1988 release in his hand, in camera view. Research has been ongoing to identify the Episode, segment and specific time to cite as a reference in support of both topics. Independent writer and music critic Samantha Stevens (cited), Streetsound Publication contributor Jonbronski (cited Writer), and media interviews with Eric Tunney CBC Television show to be transcribed and Radio interview with (defunct) CKLN Ryerson University Radio personality and hip hop historian Radio Interview (to be transcribed) by Ron Nelson (Topic) CKLN radio. ASSERTION - The editor who created and still primarily maintains this article is very obviously the subject itself. REBUTTAL - The editor has made submissions since inception. The editor and author are not the subject itself and have been detailed in the Wiki section question COI. ASSERTION - All of the Commons images depicting this person, some of which go back to the late 1980s, were uploaded by this user and are tagged as "own work." REBUTTAL - The Commons items have been labeled own work both due to inexperience at the time of submission that was the choice to avoid constraints of potential copyright. Ignorance is not necessarily an excuse, but material asked for, received, or provided upon request of an individual or party for the purposes of submission can be construed or suggested own work. Simply because the copied material is now material in the possession of the editor as an individual. Copies were made to protect originals from being lost or destroyed. No foolish individual would provide a stranger ‘original works at the risk of loss or destruction. The error here on my part, is that the works should have been identified as; not an original document or file and is a copy provided for free use at the consent of the subject for furtherance of the article. The liability would befall the editor if the images or documents or files were obtained inappropriately and used without consent. I am pretty sure that a poor 1980’s rapper would be able to find a lawyer that would take up an opportunity to sue someone who exploited their image without consent – and has the documents to back that up. The files provided were non copyright free use material upon consent provided by the subject. This in turn grants me permission to use and or exploit the files provided to me as ‘copies provided with no expectation that they be returned’. If I were to profit by way of financial compensation, that protection would no longer extend to me based upon the representation (requests) originally made to obtain material to substantiate, support and include in the article. The copies supplied by the subject was indicated to him, on the basis that could substantiate existing lighter citation or demonstrate clarity to information and claims submitted. Nothing was submitted or provided by the subject that generates compensation or is an effort to sell the subject. ASSERTION - The user has admitted that he owns the rights to the subject and its associated band as well. REBUTTAL - The statement attributed to “owning the rights to the subject” is explicitly relating to mechanical exploitation or informal licencing through means of providing files, documents, media and access to sources (upon approval) to submit exclusively to the Wikipedia project. The editor (me) has no rights to exercise beyond that specifically, and other than any purchased or traded artifacts amongst Hip Hop enthusiasts of the day (flyers, material items, hats, clothing) which was frequently done. (I personally traded items back them with people and are some valuable collectables now for me). The other members of the band have all gone onto greater and successful pursuits; including being the first JUNO award winner for Rap Music in Canada and has its own controversy attached to the member whom is also a TOPIC in Wikipedia (BKool/Carl Badwa). The person who could be regarded as a ‘curator’ (Mr. Grant-Stuart) with substantial material and documents to lift up the Get Loose Crew article and in turn this one passed away late last year. Retrieving material from him or his estate is not possible. ASSERTION - Going through the edit history of the article, this editor and some IPs with similar editing habits are the only ones who have been able to contribute anything substantial to this article, and the only other significant changes to content have been to remove puffery or unverified claims. REBUTTAL - This in my opinion is a bit of a personal attack. It has sufficient negative tone, and is just not very nice. IP information is hardly reliance in any form of identification standard (I don’t believe the individual is suggesting that they are a Cybersecurity expert), and coupled with the suggestion of some analysis of editing habits? That’s a very precarious suggestion that should come from an Intelligence Analyst competent in identifying pattern of speech, written word, or similar forensics. I am being a little silly here, because this process and some of the hard line unpleasantries are … silly. I am not an academic, scholar or wizard on this platform or a well versed or skilled ‘editor’ as referred to. I am a person, who was very interested about writing about and gathering data about this subject. It’s a work in progress. Isn’t that what Wikipedia is supposed to be about? I appreciate standards and rules, but it kind of seems like a bit of an attack with desire of all out cancellation? ASSERTION - As a BLP, this article is very problematic as so much of it is either unreferenced, or based on very dubious sources. REBUTTAL - ‘Dubious’? Why such sinister tone? Is it necessary and is this attitude overall being a bit of an attack and not an effort to substantively review and question items to perhaps improve the article? Seems kind of harsh that its an ‘all or nothing’ ‘take it down’ and all other references to the subject. Seems destructive. Just my side thought.

Going through the list of references: • ASSERTION - Parts of the lead, which include the artist's WP:CCS of being the world's second white rapper, are attributed to a "distribution agreement" from 1988 that does not seem to be publicly accessible in any form. REBUTTAL - Its a duly executed contract registered in the province of Ontario and as an executed contract entered into, would be available and accessible publicly at any time upon request of the parties’ thorough counsel. I am sure that if anyone requested a copy of contract from either party (outside of subpoena) or court order, that could easily be done. Alternately, please direct me to where the image (approved by the subject) could be posted on Wikipedia to be viewed and confirmed. As I understand it some of the documents and other things they have will be put on their website. I do know that some of the content of the contract per se has been referenced in television media (referenced in this long response) but I can’t write that as ‘editor’ herein. That media is sought and appropriate references can and will be cited when available. • ASSERTION - The early history of this subject is completely unreferenced and searches for key terms such as "Def Force Sound Crew" and "MC Rumble" don't turn up any results connecting them to the subject. REBUTTAL - The name “Def Force Sound Crew" was related by the subject as a band or group that those guys were all in together before they released their record. This is common among rock bands, where they were one name and then another. I have seen on social media, crude media (subjective word) advertisements for that group’s performances at local shows, but nothing I felt that I could submit it. The other thing is much of this history from sources is just appearing. A person (not knowing) would really have to understand and appreciate the genre and political landscape. Simply put, many people in Toronto and Canada (if they even care) believe that Hip Hop and Rap began with Drake (Topic). Others believe it was before him but after 1991 with a subject called Kardinal Official. Some who think that they know their history really well think that its Maestro Fresh Wes (Topic) preceding him in 1990. The irony, is that this subject (Topic) precedes all of these people and on a historical scale. The subject has been acknowledged and validated by HIS PEERS through various accounts that are making their way in this organic article. As for the "MC Rumble", he is known as David Morgan by name and has been described by people as private and elusive. He rebuked the most recent spotlight at the CBC Hip Hop Summit a few years ago by walking around on stage, talking and then bizarrely leaving. He avoided any interviews and apparently disappeared from the event. MC Rumble has not released any material known of since the 1990’s and reference to him by the subject (in the article) was in response to questions surrounding, “What inspired or drew you to being a rapper” “What motivated you release your record” “What was the path like as a rapper to putting out a record”. It is clear that the subject was an independent artist and not on a major record label. There is information and history to account for this but it something anticipated in citing’s and supportive sources and not my account or received information. I have been doing my best to post information and not come off like the expert. Because simply, I am not. If that has created an image of “puffery’, then that is because I am not a true editor or biographer and have been trying to do my best in this community. • ASSERTION - The 1988 section attributes the subject's presence on a local chart to the home page of "East Park Productions" - an organization connected to the subject - and attributes a claim about a record being on "a list of most collectible Toronto albums" to an WP:SPS. REBUTTAL - The subject has responded to the question of “where is your East Park Productions website”, responding to the effect that it is apparently under construction and offline because it was old looking. A new webmaster is working on the new site. I surmise that would be where the cited reference will be viewable to confirm. The reference "a list of most collectible Toronto albums", is what I found during my internet research. It is called TO Blog and has a credentialed writer and is not a recreational hobby site. I have emailed and tried to contact the author of the article to no avail. They aren’t responding to enquiries. Even when I have indicated that I am a contributor to Wikipedia and are looking for some source support. • ASSERTION -The 2014 section is mostly unreferenced while making claims that a video project apparently titled "Resurrection" was un undertaking of "the first of its kind in any music genre." I was unable to find any objective evidence of this other than the student paper which one part has cited. REBUTTAL - I would go further to support your point and actually call this section ‘sloppy’, ‘haphazard’ and not my finest effort. I can attest to the statement separate from any comment by anyone that the project the subject is doing, and is not yet completed is truly and accurately one of a kind for any form of music. The fact is simple that nowhere in music by any group, band, or otherwise has anyone attempted or completed the project he is working on. It is not simply explained, and I had trouble understanding it at first, but it’s a project that once complete will have never been created before and is evidenced nowhere else currently. Please remember, that despite the source does not write for a major publication or renowned music media outlet that does not negate, disqualify or otherwise belittle their commentary. If it had been to the contrary and not supportive, perhaps these viewpoints would (presumably) be considered valid as “objective evidence”. • ASSERTION - The "Collaborations" section says that the subject has collaborated with a number of other artists, but uses references to the Juno Awards and an associated Vancouver Sun publication which have absolutely nothing to do with the subject itself. REBUTTAL - The collaborations section identifies an artist in Vancouver, his significance and JUNO success. The article and a refence to the JUNO awards specifically attribute to Nelson Garcia’s success as a collaborator whose art is the cover work for all of the subjects indicated releases. The Vancouver Sun is source to substantiate and to not negate the credibility of Mr. Garcia. Some of the other artists weblinks were removed by other editors, in particular Sarah Beatty, who has an interview with a reliable and credible source and discusses the subject and collaboration, etc. Its a double-edged sword. Links went up, links taken down. I understand this be an organic and developmental process, even when efforts to grow the article are shot down or taken down. ASSERTION - I counted two sources that could potentially establish notability, but I'm unable to find the source content, and I doubt that it's enough to substantiate an article of this length. REBUTTAL - There is respectfully sufficient source content and there is as with any process that is supposed to be community and contributory. At the risk of an even further response, I am confirming that the subject has identified at request by the editor in support of keeping this article any sources or updated information to assist. I am copying that information below and can also state that material ability to connect to it, request it, and verify it and the sources are forthcoming. First, Graduate School Researcher and former Vancouver DJ interviewed this person and others as identified as local pioneers that played a crucial role in developing the local (Toronto) scene, 2) An adjunct professor at Toronto's Ryerson University, as well as the founder of Northside Hip Hop Archive whom is a contact to the person (artist) and surrounding artists, hosted the TDot Pioneers Exhibit collected and displayed artifacts and information related to the artist on his organization’s website and his knowledge of the Canadian/Toronto hip hop music scene. The Topic person discussed here was an attendee and photographic proof shows him with other pioneer individuals that established hip hop in Toronto. I don’t know these individuals or how to contact them but know of their performances and presence on radio and video in Toronto. 3) A postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute, University of Toronto. conducting academic Research study that traces the history of Toronto Hip Hop, and the relationship that Hip Hop practitioners and industry professionals have had to the music marketplace and creative industries in both the City of Toronto and Canada. Invited the person (artist/topic) to participate in this research because (quote from release issued) “he has been identified as prominent member of Toronto’s Hip Hop history and the history of Canada’s culture industries.” This research project, which will focus on the historical period of 1985 – 2020 and include the interview material of 50 participants, will explore how the Toronto Hip Hop scene has unfolded over the past thirty-five years. This research conducted by Dr. Francesca D’Amico-Cuthbert a postdoctoral fellow at the Jackman Humanities Institute – housed at the University of Toronto. A historian of Hip Hop culture and Black popular music to date, her published research has focused on the history of Hip Hop and Rap music (in both the United States and Canada), Hip Hop pedagogy and educational curriculum, and the history of other Black popular music forms such as Soul, Funk and Disco. *This latter section is from a document release form that was emailed to me by the person that he has provided to the people doing the research. A monolithic member of the earliest days of Hip Hop in Canada and undisputable source is writer, DJ and producer John 'Johnbronski' Adams who was a major figure in the early era of Toronto hip-hop music as credited by CBC (Canadian Broadcast Corporation). He is cited as a source who directly interviewed the subject, the other group members and establishes timeline and context to the article. This is a dated interview, with a now defunct publication. The information in the reference is taken from a supplied copy of the original magazine. Its condition is aged and there isn’t anywhere that I could establish posting it, other than a refence to the material I was supplied with. ASSERTION - On top of this, I've identified three other articles related to this subject which, in my opinion, should be deleted in tandem: East Park Productions, Get Loose Crew and Get Loose Crew (album) were created by the same user, and describe, respectively, a record label founded and operated by "MC Shadow," and then the band and associated debut album in which "MC Shadow" participated. Much of the information overlaps with the MC Shadow article. Bizarrely, the East Park article has no references at all except one to the same student paper mentioned above, and the other articles rely on several of the same poor sources used in the MC Shadow article. I found nothing in an internet search that would establish notability for an article for any of them. REBUTTAL – It is insulting to belittle the independent critical offering of Samantha Stevens as a student paper. Its certainly not a national publication, but it is a magazine (referred as such) and available online. Its certainly not a paper as characterized, and limited to a campus newspaper box or similar shelf or container. Again, that’s not very nice. Respectfully, I can explain the creation of East Park Productions easiest. As the only other independent Hip Hop label next to Beat Factory Productions in Toronto, I created the article as I felt that it would contribute and expand as an article with increased submission activity. I researched through Wikipedia other similar entities and with available information (weak or otherwise), set out to create this article for contribution and discussion. Get Loose Crew is the origin of subject, but the subject ultimately is the story and separated, grew and achieved outside of the contributions to that article. The most prominent articles are MC Shadow and The Get Loose Crew. They have significant separate relevancy. Some have been addressed in other articles by other artists one of the band members who has adopted other performance names and is a from of subject within 2 articles. All of this information is supported by significant credible developments and awakenings within the origins of this subject’s participation and existence in the Canadian music industry. Among much anticipated information to be submitted for review the boldest and compelling available source statement (retrieved on consent from the University of Toronto’s documentation on their letterhead) “he (the subject) has been identified as prominent member of Toronto’s Hip Hop history and the history of Canada’s culture industries.” And further stated to substantiate the timeline for the subject, “This research project, which will focus on the historical period of 1985 – 2020”. Citings (ref ref indicated below) are not present in this rebuttal at this time due to the deadline to formulate this response. All references contained in this response are VERIFIABLE. With extended time and an opportunity to communicate directly with all identified potential sources as to to the intent to destroy this topic, updated quality information could be provided. I would strongly assert that this topic and connected Get Loose Crew topic article are highly relevant and that this detailed response stands as a statement that bolsters support to other information to be presented and to NOT DELETE this article at this time. Oldschoolmc ( talk) 22:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Oldschoolmc: You really need to review Wikipedia's policies on notability, reliable sources and verifiability. These are the main reasons that a consensus is emerging in favor of deleting or redirecting these articles, and you aren't addressing these reasons. We aren't concerning ourselves with your opinions of the subject, or what the subject thinks. We are concerning ourselves with whether this article complies with Wikipedia policy, and so far, it clearly does not. Saying that something is true because other people have told you it is isn't reliable evidence. Simply saying that that sufficient source content exists without providing it to people who clearly can't find it is not helpful, because the unverifiable assertions of one editor aren't reliable evidence. Saying that there are mysteriously unreachable people who can vouch for the content in the article is hearsay, which isn't reliable evidence.
As for some of your other points:
  • The references to the EPP website and the Juno Awards are problems because they don't support the claims they are attached to. The EPP home page did not have any information about the chart mentioned in the article, and also counts as a primary source, which are generally unreliable. With the Juno mentions, we're not looking for evidence that another artist won a Juno, we're looking for evidence that "MC Shadow" collaborated with a Juno winner. You can't attribute a statement to a source that has no backing for that statement - that's simply gaming the system.
  • You mentioned "I have communicated to the subject via email and informed him as to what is happening with his Wikipedia page and the related topics." Collaborating with the subject(s) to achieve a specific outcome for their articles means you are editing with a conflict of interest. I will add that it's fine to do so as long as you are not being paid and that your edits comply with policy, but it's disingenuous to say that you don't have one, and then go and involve the subject in the process. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Wikipedia articles, especially biographies of living people, are intended to be entirely objective, and verifiable by third parties. The input of a subject doesn't count for anything unless it meets those criteria. — {Canuck lehead} 04:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/MC_Shadow&oldid=988015231"

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