- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete as your every day MySpace musician— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 08:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Chris Rhoads
In my opinion, doesn't assert sufficient notability. Lack of references and sources, as well. Daniel Bryant 07:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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KeepI saw him perform with Wynton Marsalis and Dave Samuels both grammy winners. So i think there is sufficient notability. just lackings in references and sources in my oppinion 74.195.240.49 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Ah, but there's the rub, no? An article that is "just" lack in references and sources is a significant issue when there's no evidence that such references and sources (acceptable per WP:ATT) exist and can be retrieved. Mwelch 20:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete since this topic is not sufficiently well-known. Mr. Berry 07:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep As the author I see it as valuable information for those seeking it. The topic is quite well-known to those in the industry. Chazlewkowski 17:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Would you provide reasons for keeping the article that comply with Wikipedia policy? While everyone can understand that you subjectively feel the article is a keeper because you wrote it, we need objective discussion as to why the article's subject is notable as well as any factual statements being attributable. Thanks, Scienter 13:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mailer Diablo 11:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete: This guy fails WP:MUSIC with flying colors; he doesn't remotely come close to fulfilling any of the criteria. He's just a session musician, of which there are tens of thousands. NB - all the Keep votes above, so far, are single-purpose accounts. Ravenswing 13:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete The author asserts some notability, but there is no source in the article to back this claim up, nor have links been added in nearly a week since this AfD went up. Doesn't seem currently t pass WP:MUSIC StuartDouglas 14:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. No evidence of notability per WP:MUSIC. Mwelch 20:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Not notable, too many Myspace sources. Realkyhick 22:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment:: well I already did my :*STRONG KEEP: However as the author it appears that the general vibe is to have this article deleted. No hard feelings here, I understand why it would be questionable. I personally feel as if it is notable enough to be kept. This is based on his reputation, many endorsers and list of artists he has recorded or performed with. However I fully understand how those who arnt familiar would vote for Delete based on the quality of the article that I made. Best of luck, hopefully the article stays but if not perhaps someone else will create a better one in the future. Chazlewkowski 04:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable, the only reference is a list of artists that use said hardware. -- Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント ( talk) 04:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: one of which being Chris Rhoads Chazlewkowski 08:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- This deleted article is now at Michael O'Byrne (Irish biologist). Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 20:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Majorly (o rly?) 14:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Plot of Naruto: Shippūden
- Plot of Naruto: Shippūden ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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This article is a grotesque violation of the subject's copyright. It is a 32 kb+ step-by-step summary of a film series, and I do not know how to even begin to reduce this to something reasonable. I think the best thing to do is wipe it and start over.
WP:FICT does not like this article. Nor do
WP:WAF or
WP:NOT.
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
06:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Two things: this isn't a film, this is describing half the storyline of the series
Naruto; and since when were plot summaries a copyright violation? (I could understand if it were word-for-word transcripts of every episode and/or chapter, but even with this article's size, it certainly is not.)
NeoChaosX (
talk,
walk)
08:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Extensive plot summaries without contect provided by external sources are a violation. See:
WP:FICT and
WP:WAF --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
09:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not certain why you thought this was a summary of a film series, but if it were, it is understandable how you would consider this article overwrought. However the source material itself is extensive and serialized over several months and this article does not provide a
- Comment - Extensive plot summaries without contect provided by external sources are a violation. See:
WP:FICT and
WP:WAF --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
09:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
substitute for reading the manga. DaoKaioshin 14:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Also note that it survived a previous AfD over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Plot of Naruto I, back when the article was titled Plot of Naruto II. NeoChaosX ( talk, walk) 09:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep it's used to keep "Plot of Naruto" at a reasonable size, and the content is definitely encyclopedic in terms of the show. It could use trimming.
JuJube
09:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Please explain your use of the word "encyclopedic" in that sentence. This just looks like a depressingly meticulous moment-by-moment plot summary with little context. That's not encyclopedic; it's a fan page. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 09:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Chris is right; this is a clear violation of Wikipedia policies and fair use criteria. No article should consist solely of plot summary, that much is clear from
WP:FICT,
WP:WAF, and
WP:NOT. —
Brian (
talk)
09:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment "Wait a minute. There are lots of articles like this on Wikipedia. Episode summaries, book summaries, even movie summaries. How is this article different from them?" Master Endar 08:07, 26 March 2007 (Centeral)
- Comment - It might help if you consider this the first of a series of such AFD discussions. Please provide examples of similar articles so I know what to tag next. Thanks in advance. Also, please fix your signature. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment "Wait a minute. There are lots of articles like this on Wikipedia. Episode summaries, book summaries, even movie summaries. How is this article different from them?" Master Endar 08:07, 26 March 2007 (Centeral)
- Keep, but trim and provide with sources (which are definitely out there). There's no disputing the notability of the Naruto series. None whatsoever. This article is a page split from
Plot of Naruto for the purpose of size, and
Plot of Naruto was originally created to keep the main
Naruto page size reasonable. So it fits notability criteria, but needs sourcing. I had it tagged at one point, but it seems that the tag had been removed. Cheers,
Lankybugger ○
speak ○
see ○
13:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- No one is disputing the the series' notability. What's being disputed is the extensive nature of these summaries without trying to put it into any sort of reasonable real-world context or cite external sources.-- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, I don't see why this was nominated. Maybe its length demands a cleanup tag, but this summary is in line with countless examples that are presumably considered valid applications of fair use according to wikipolicy.
DaoKaioshin
14:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - If you are going to make a claim like that, please include some examples of similar articles that have been said to meet policy with regard to fair use. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: This came up last year with regard to one of the other Naruto plot articles -- see
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Plot_of_Naruto_I. Personally, I'm conflicted. (1) We don't normally delete articles that could be cleaned up; (2) I'm torn about just how much plot summary is appropriate for serial works. According to the notes, this article currently covers approximately one hundred serial chapters of the work -- how much plot summary is appropriate for 100 issues of the manga? (3) Ultimately, if the article had more out-of-universe info, I would probably be ok with about this level of plot summary, maybe a little less. Given that it doesn't, I'm torn about whether to delete the article to encourage editors to do a better job next time or to leave it in the hope that the editors eventually clean it up.
TheronJ
14:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- TheronJ, I know you have worked on WikiProject Comics articles before, so I ask you to think about how many of those articles are merely plot summaries that cover 100 issues of a series in such detail.
52 (comic book) will cover 52 issues when it is finished, but the summary is maintained s at about ten paragraphs, and it has a lot of external sources that discuss the real-world details surrounding the series. --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
14:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, Chris. There's no question, IMHO, that the comics project has led the way on this problem, and articles like Ultimate Spider-Man (story arcs) and Ultimate X-Men (story arcs) are much, much better that the Naruto plot articles - both because they make a concerted effort to include helpful, non-plot information and a concerted effort to keep the plot information limited. I'm mostly torn about whether deletion is appropriate for an article like this, which I agree (1) needs clean-up badly; (2) probably won't be cleaned up for years if ever; and (3) is very likely to constitute a copyright violation because of the depth of plot summary relative to non-plot information. I'll think about it and see if I can come off the fence. TheronJ 14:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- TheronJ, I know you have worked on WikiProject Comics articles before, so I ask you to think about how many of those articles are merely plot summaries that cover 100 issues of a series in such detail.
52 (comic book) will cover 52 issues when it is finished, but the summary is maintained s at about ten paragraphs, and it has a lot of external sources that discuss the real-world details surrounding the series. --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
14:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - Fan comments aside, I stand with my previous nom. of Plot of Naruto I. WP:NOT: "Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." -- Pentasyllabic 15:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - This is in no way a "grotesque violation of the subject's copyright" or a "clear violation of Wikipedia policies and fair use criteria." It fits perfectly with "a plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." It takes a bit of plot summary to describe 400 magazines and 250 television episodes. It has to be broken down a bit, and that's what this is, see WP:SS. If you just glance at the page it looks like it's only covering a few episodes, but it's actually covering over 100 issues of the manga. I can see why someone thought it was too large when they thought it was a single film. You also may want to know this is the 43rd most viewed article on all of wikipedia. It's going to get a little bloated when 16,000 people are reading it every day. Naruto related articles account for 8 of our top 100 pages, with about 100,000 page views a day, so they tend to get big. People aren't saying delete because of notability, but just in case someone's thinking it, Naruto gets 32,000,000 google hits. - Peregrine Fisher 16:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - This is a plot of of a "larger topic", the franchise is large and thus there's a lot to cover, As Wikipedia is not paper and I believe this fits in with our goals to create an encyclopaedia. I'd recommend somebody add some sources, however. Matthew 16:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - After all, various other pages on Wikipedia consist of ONLY plot summaries and spoilers. Also, we are informing people of the plot of Naruto, just in a seperate page because if combined, the article is very long. Hence, fitting in with the enclyclopedia definition. -- Omghgomg 06:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - The out of universe details are at Naruto, although I don't know if that matters here. Can anyone comment on wikibooks? It's mentioned in WP:FICT, although from reading about it, I can't really tell if it is an acceptable location for plot summaries. (Jez, I need to stop thinking about this and just hit save, I've run up against the last two comments. and an edit! =P ) -- Celain 16:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep-Important page Illyria05 ( Talk • Contributions) 16:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - While I agree that this page is way too large and goes into way too much detail, it can be cleaned up with a whole lot of work. The only real area that has considerable bloat is the area covering the Hidan and Kazuku arc. That arc just ended a couple of weeks back, so we can now take a knife to the section with the advantage of knowing exactly what was important to the storyline. However, I'm not really sure how we can source this besides citing the entire manga? -- GhostStalker( Got a present for ya!) 16:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Delete as it consist of nothing but a plot summary (see WP:FICT). -- Whpq 17:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. I guess the reason we are complaining is not so much of the plot-for-plot deletion, but it seems that Stargate (both Atlantis and SG-1) and Startrek gets to keep every single episode plot summary, while an anime that is notable even in America cannot (and I am not even going with other anime series that is not licensed yet) George Leung 22:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Naruto also has an article for each episode: see List of Naruto episodes/ List of Naruto: Shippūden episodes. There is also List of Naruto story arcs for shorter synopses. -- Pentasyllabic 22:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Of the nerd topics, I find that Star Trek is done reasonably well - far better handled than Star Wars or Transformers, but that's not difficult - as long as there is a proportional amount of out-of-universe details, the article is fine. If you can suggest problematic articles, I would be happy to look at them. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 01:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I see no reason to delete this article and start over, but if you do, perhaps you should try the talk page. Deleting the content merely to recreate it though, wouldn't make for less trouble, but more. FrozenPurpleCube 23:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I believe this has been duscussed before and I don't see a reason to remove it. Simply leave it as it is and continue expanding it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.66.22.232 ( talk) 00:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
- Keep Why bother deleting it? What is the point in deleting an article just because you have no interest in it? It's highly informative for people who are unable to get the mangas, and is therefore serving it's purpose as an encyclopedic article.
- Weak delete No one wants to trim it down, so a wipe should do the trick. The problem is that people seem to think every chapter has to be analyzed in total detail here, but there are other places to get that kind of extensive information. The above-noted Wikipolicies are rather clear that this article needs to be remedied, and has been for half a year now. Treima 01:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - if it is possible to fix an article, it should not be deleted. This article is clearly fixable. - Peregrine Fisher 01:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - And yet it hasn't been since the last debate. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 02:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- There's no deadline on wikipedia that I'm aware of. - Peregrine Fisher 02:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, as it is an aspect of the larger subject of Naruto as a whole and thus not subject to exclusion by WP:NOT#IINFO 7 alone. Plot summary was deemed important to the subject, and forked from the main article, then from the Part I article in a natural Wiki process to keep pages readable and concise. That said, it could certainly use some improvement. It shouldn't be written from such a percise perspective, but rather a general one, focusing on what's important. More importantly, it needs to be well referenced to the source material so people researching the subject can trace their path back to the particular episode or chapter they're interested in. – Gunslinger47 03:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Neutral. Contributors to this article fail dearly to make any effort at trimming it down once in a while, but it is much easier to manage than what is at the moment 225 potentially more detailed synopsizes of the same crap. I won't pretend that plot summaries such as this are necessary on Wikipedia, but for Wikipedia to frown on this while seemingly turning a blind eye to larger scale examples is some kind of discrimination. You can give me some line about how single episode summaries have some greater importance than an article with multiple episode summaries crammed together, but the only real difference is that one has cultural references/trivia, and the other doesn't. Also, something of a similar nature that I'd be interested to see if it's anymore acceptable: Category:Dragon Ball sagas. ~ Snapper T o 03:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Neutral Detailed plot summaries are unfortunately the least of Wikipedia's legal worries so I hope this AfD will be a wake-up call to all contributors to pay attention to the {{ plot}} tag. UnfriendlyFire 03:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Split. I and several other users are working on breaking the Plot of Naruto I & II articles into summaries by arc. You Can't See Me! 04:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I don't see any good reason in deleting this, it's good for those that can't get online manga. It could be improved,yes, but DELETED? That's REALLY not needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shonen Jump Master ( talk • contribs) 12:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
- Keep- As has been previously stated, this article provides a valuable source for those who can't read japanese, and can't wait several months for a single chapter to be subbed. As well, there can be difficulties finding said chapters, let alone actually accessing them. The article could, in theory be shortened, but it would, and should be a group effort.-- Megaman3 12:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep- I'm not sure, and this may be my bad memory kicking in, but I also believe this was discussed before and a Keep consensus was made. Also, this is a useful source for people who truly would like to find the information, as with anything else on Wikipedia. As such, why delete something that a good number of people find useful? There's no point, in my opinion.
Steelesaber
20:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment, regarding the last three Keep votes: Your reasons for keeping the article are actually reasons to delete as per current policy. No article can serve as substitute for reading the source material. There are good reasons to keep, but this isn't one of them. – Gunslinger47 20:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- And an AfD discussion is not a vote either. FrozenPurpleCube 02:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I agree that this article needs trimming down once more (I may do it myself when I find the time), but I see no reason that this article should be removed considering the many, many other plot synopsises for TV series/movies/books/etc. that exist on Wikipedia, nor do I see any copyright violations. It is not step by step as it omits many details, but it does act as a guide on how the story has progressed. Also keep in mind that adding this article to the main Naruto plot article would easily double or even triple it's size. Djseifer 23:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I think each arc should be given a separate page.
Ghos7king
24:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - That might be a bit much, I think. I'll try and go over the article tonight and see if I can excise any unneeded info. Djseifer 00:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Without this article, Plot of Naruto would be way too long. And the article can be split or trimmed or something. There isn't really a reason to delete it. Raven23 02:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. This is a plot summary written by watching the series and deriving conclusions from it, and it doesn't attribute any of the claims. The only useful thing that this could do (other than amuse Naruto fans, which isn't really a goal of this project) is summarize each episode and attribute fictional events on an episode-by-episode basis, and it doesn't even do that. -
A Man In Bl♟ck (
conspire |
past ops)
03:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes it sound like it should be fixed instead of deleted. -
Peregrine Fisher
04:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- This could be a proper encyclopedia article. If the plot summary were reduced by 80%, the article were renamed Naruto: Shippūden, and the article talked at least as much - if not more - about the conception, creation, and critical and popular response to Shippuden in both Japanese- and English-speaking territories, this could work. It'd be a good companion piece to the main Naruto article, and Shippuden is a fairly significant departure in both mood and style, so it wouldn't be out of place to treat it as though it were a separate series.
- I don't think 32K of plot summary (if you can even call it summary) would be a good start on that, nor would it be a useful subpage for that. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 04:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes it sound like it should be fixed instead of deleted. -
Peregrine Fisher
04:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment So what, are you just all for deleting the article because you don't watch Naruto? I've said it once, and I'll say it again: it is serving it's purpose as an encyclopedic article by providing information. In fact, the article is even titled "Plot of Naruto: Shippuden". Not "Summary of Plot of Naruto: Shippuden." The only "reason" I see for it's deletion is that some people are against Naruto, and just want to mess with Naruto's fans. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
72.215.11.249 (
talk)
05:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
- Fanpages provide information. Road signs provide information. Encyclopedias provide introduction and summary, things that this page fails to do.
- If you would like to be provided with the plot of Shippuden, you're in luck! JUMP Comics or VIZ Media (depending on where you live and what language you can read) would like to sell you some comics. Here, we need to be summarizing it (emphasis on the summary) so that we can discuss Shippuden as an artefact of the real world. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 05:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and split. This article, while indeed in need of serious editing, is still necessary, as Plot of Naruto would become even more enormous. Furthermore, I cannot see why pages that can be clearly fixed are being slated for deletion. I support this initiative by Snapper in any case. Sephiroth BCR 05:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Naruto is a long series, thus wouldn't it make sense, for the sake of a complete summary, that the summary itself would be long as well? Splitting it according to the arcs is one thing, but this article definetly shouldn't be deleted (somebody already tried, unsuccesfully). Viewtiful Rekk 12:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. The page is obviously long and detailed enough to provide an alternative to reading/viewing the source material, and thus constitutes copyright violation. The Hidan and Kakazu section is particularly egregious in this. It's also a completely pointless page, as if it were shortened to a decent level (as has been done with longer series) then it would fit in a main Naruto: Shippūden article. That's the sort of article we need, not something that goes against numerous Wikipedia policies like this one. Stylish Alastor the Stylish 19:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and reduce. While it's true that articles should not just be plot summaries, the existence of one adds to the meaning of the subject matter. Therefore, this article should not be thought of it's own article but part of the Naruto article. In response to claims that the article is too long, I fully agree, though, with the second-to-most-recent arc concluded, it is now possible to clean up that area, which is by far the largest.-- Frenchman113 on wheels! 19:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. i have found this a useful tool to write my fan comic about naruto,to keep up with it so i dont make huge mistakes,it also provides us who dont have access to the original form of the manga to keep up with the story since the dub and the us manga are very slow —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blaze of merc ( talk • contribs) 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
- Keep and split into seperate arcs I agree it is too large and is in desperate need of splitting into sperate articles maybe an article for each arc? But I've seen plenty of other articles with plot summeries and some with every minute details (please see The Hills Have Eyes (2006 film) article for example) so if this article is deleted I will assume you will go after the other articles also? Sam ov the blue sand 01:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Yeah splitting between the arcs would also be good (much easer to navigate) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blaze of merc ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
- CommentThere IS too much content in this article, if there is only 300 espisodes now, what will this page look like when there is 400 or 500? Obviously, the article needs a trim, but there seems to be no one who is willing to do it, probably because of its size. Why don't we create a particular board of users who trim the article monthly? I think that splitting the article will create too much of a fuss, some arcs are just not long enough, its not worth an entire page.
Zachary
crimsonwol
f
13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Not every single arc would need its own article. The Prelude and the Exposition, for instance, can stay in the article due to their brevity. Everything else has sufficient content to have its own seperate article. Sephiroth BCR 17:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - People are complaining about the level of detail, but let's compare it to some other page on wikipedia. First, there's about 2 issues of the manga for every 1 episode. This page is covering 100 issues of the manga, so that's about 50 episodes. This page has about 11,000 words, so that's 220 words per episode. Now a Featured Article episode from House,
Pilot (House), has about 600 words in its plot summary. Those episodes are twice as long, so it has about 300 words per 22 minutes, which is 136% more than this page. That's a Featured Article, so people who know what they're doing have cut that synopsis down the best it can be done. If you compare it to some
Stargate or
Heroes episodes, it's even smaller per minute. The more I think about it, this isn't even too detailed, it's just that being on all on one page makes people think it should be deleted. -
Peregrine Fisher
18:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's the excessive level of detail coupled with the complete lack of possibility for sourced, encyclopedic content that's the problem. Plus, those lists are equally problematic, for much the same reasons. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 19:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's less detailed than the House episode featured article. I'd like to see a consensus on how long plot summaries should be. Until then, using featured articles seems like a good way to judge. Personally, when I write anime episode summaries, I make them about 150 words. See Star of Desire for an example. I think 220 words is pretty good considering the 16000 page views this aticle gets every day. - Peregrine Fisher 21:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Keep/Spilt i think this article may be two long and much controversy because of its usefulness to many users but i think recoomending it for deletion is a rash descision... A wikiproject may be in order to help fix this article. Spilting in to seprate parts can help as well. On another hand i think a good idea would be to trim the Sections to less detail after the episode pertaining to that section is released which can greatly shorten the article over time. Reccomding this for deletion isnt something to take lightly because its two long copyright violation doesnt seem like a pertaining issue as it just records without posting content. if you posted the manga here i assume it would be a different story Matthew2c4u 20:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I belive that though the article does need trimming, it should not be deledted. It should interefere with deletion policy. It is just too big —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.170.103.177 ( talk • contribs).
- keepWho told you to speak about others' copyrights? If the copyright holder doesn't care, why should you?-- 141.213.198.142 00:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- comment Peregrine Fisher, I think talking about something completely different from the suject is something that should be avoided. Please remember this is a manga/anime with more than 200 chapters not a televesion show with less than 50 episodes so please tell me how are we to shorten the article without splitting into various articles? I also believe that the article was put up for deletion because because the nominator thought this was a film so there is no need for this being here. Sam ov the blue sand, X please passover. 01:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- comment I believe that people who doesn't enjoy this anime or just hate it for some reason should not have a say on this, as it may only be to get this summary deleted, I also think that if it's too large of a summary then we could devide it into arcs. deviding this aummary into arcs might take a lot of work but I know it's possible and even if i'm not good at this i would gladly help devide it.
Ghos7king
02:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Okay, enough with the hate accusations. I enjoy the series, but this article seriously needs to go (or at the very least, get split). Put things into perspective. It's not that I don't like the series; quite the contrary. This is the only anime I watch on a regular basis nowadays. However, this is not a Naruto fansite: This is an encyclopedia, and thus its articles have to be of encyclopedic value and must fit a certain standard. Per WP:NOT, articles that are strictly plot summaries are in fact not encyclopedic, and the article on its own is not near Wikipedia's quality standards in terms of its tone and excessive details. This could be fixed, but not without breaking the article into smaller parts. So, I maintain the split decision that I had above, but I am not opposed to an outright deletion. You Can't See Me! 03:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, but clean up. This article is a great source of information for those who don't have the actual manga handy, but want to research it. However, the degree to which it covers the plot is a bit excessive, and I feel that it should be reduced to a basic summary of the plot's outline, leaving only the more important events of the series, rather than an in-depth explanation of every little thing that happens. Is it absolutely necessary to know that Konohamaru started fooling around with the Shadow Clone Jutsu after he learned it? No, not really. It does reveal more about the characters, but that's why many characters have their own articles. CrazedNinja 05:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Though I do admit, this file is massive and would definitely hinder those with slower browsers and computers. However, I see no reason to remove it completely. If it does get too much, how about separating the article into the plot synopsis section of each character, like the
Bleach page, or, for example,
this page. That way, we can all see plot details attributed to each main character and keep the file size reasonable at the same time.
Stuntman15
17:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - I agree. Kind of Like what the Other person had said. Trim it into other articles. But based on arc, Unless the arc is short, in which case group those ones with the longer ones. Look, plain and simple: I haven't gotten the subbed comic yet, I can't find it either, I like this to be used as a source until the chapter it describes Releases. That way, I know what is going on. Besides, Seriously, Like was also stated quite simply put: If you look at the length of everything that has happened in both the manga and anime of it, you'll see that this plot is actually VERY SHORTENED from what it could be. It needs to be trimmed into smaller arcticles. I tried to do so a few minutes ago, but Wikipedia wouldn't let me. Forgive me if that was wrong of me, I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and don't know all the rules in the back of my head. Chipmonk328 9:17 PM, 30 March 2007
- Comment - I also agree. This articles would be better off being separated into different articles. It is what they did for One Piece, so we should do the same. (undersigned)
- Delete.- This article is clearly driven by Naruto-fans and is serving no purpose to Wikipedia other than being a place for thea above people who cannot get their hands on the manga to keep up with the series. Hence, infringing copyright laws by providing a substitute to the actual manga. Wikipedia is not a hub for fans :) 216.99.60.104 23:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - The article is valid information just shouldn't be all that large, some people went overly enthusiastic on the article. It just needs some rewriteing. Lord Metroid 14:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per
WP:NOT--
Greatestrowerever
20:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- "A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic". You'll need to elaborate. – Gunslinger47 20:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Weak keep because though I can see the inherent NOT-ness of it, a reasonable and non-half-assed trimming could clean it up nicely. — Someguy0830 ( T | C) 23:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- commentActually I don't think any1 uses this because they can't get the manga or watch the anime mostly because you can just go to youtube.com and read the manga or watch the anime. Ghos7king 23:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- commentWell in that case why does wikipedia exist when I can go to youtube? ^_^
Sam ov the blue sand,
X please passover.
23:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Naruto plot would be way too long, and the information there is too valuable to just delete. Xepeyon 15:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Just a quick question: as this isn't a majority vote, will there be a deadline for a consensus on this issue or will it be one of those 'go on 'til the end of time' discussions? Stuntman15 17:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Someone will come along eventually, I believe. - Peregrine Fisher 18:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - I find this funny, since it seems i can search wikipedia for several other shows which make a fortune on DVD Sales and the such, and yet their plot summaries are "Organized" yet give away about 500% the amount of details that this plot summary does, even with shows containing less content. I think half the people on this conversation are biased, hypocritical and should quit trying to rain on others parades just to agitate the situation, like the one who started this deletion suggestion- who everyone knows this person is. Guest 21:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - The preceding comment was left by 69.151.254.63 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). UnfriendlyFire 02:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus to delete. This was a tough one to close. A significant portion of the "keep" comments made did not cite policy, and seemed to border on WP:ILIKEIT. However, even discounting these, I couldn't find consensus to delete; WP:NEO is a guideline, and I don't feel comfortable asserting WP:IAR to apply it to this article when I couldn't find consensus to delete in the first place. This close places no prejudice against renominations of the article, and I strongly caution User:Davidhc to remain civil, constructive, and non-argumentative in future AfD debates. Badgering editors with views different than your own with incivil commentary is not acceptable. — bbatsell ¿? ✍ 03:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Friedman (unit)
Not notable, neologism, full of OR, does not cite sources other than blogs, all relevant content about the term is at Atrios already. Croctotheface 07:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:NEO, WP:V and WP:NOR. This is an absurd example of OR. Not one of the cited references in the sprawling "examples" section actually uses the term "friedman unit". Blogs and their ilk are not generally reliable sources; certainly not to establish currency of a neologism. This article belongs in Disinfopedia or dKosopedia, if anywhere. By the way, this article and its impending deletion has been commented on by Atrios [20]; expect some puppetry. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 12:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the next six months really are going to determine whether this neologism catches on...Meanwhile we can transwiki the term and redirect to Atrios.-- Tikiwont 13:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per Kaustuv. The article itself seems to give two different definitions for a Friedman unit, so it may not even be eligible for transwiki-ing. Redirect to Atrios after deletion. The "examples" section is nothing short of WP:SYN. Risker 14:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do Not Delete - a first summary This article should not be deleted. Many of the points below have been drawn from the previous debate on whether or not to Merge the article. The result of that debate was for the article not to be merged.
- Reliable sources: Apart from the secondary debate over whether millions of people reading hundreds of blogs that repeatedly use the term Friedman Unit count as a reliable source, the term has appeared in print media as referenced in the article. If you have problems with the print media that the term has appeared in, then please do not just say "that doesn't count" or "that's not a reliable source." You will need to explain why those specific publications are not reliable in the context of the wikipedia guidelines.
- Neologism: The neologism rule is in place to keep people from using Wikipedia to coin a term. In the case of the Friedman Unit, the term is already widely used without the help of this article. While the google test does not assure notability of a term, the many and varied hit results for the Friedman Unit show that it is widely used by millions of people. If you no not think that millions of blog readers do not count as the wide use of a term, then please explain why they do not count.
- Wikipedia is not a print medium: It is a founding principle of Wikipedia that is has space for entries that would not otherwise make it into a print encyclopedia. Because if this rule, it is important to remember that if an article is in doubt, it is better to err on the side of caution and keep the article rather than delete it. If you think that Wikipedia does not have space for this article, then please explain with evidence.
- I don't like it: While the "I like it" argument is not a good reason for keeping an article, it is also equally important to remember that "I don't like it" is not a good reason for deleting it. Editors on both sides need to ask themselves this question before they make their arguments so that they do not do a disservice to the Wikipedia community by letting their subjective opinions overshadow their reason.
- For these and many other reasons that I am sure other people will list, this article should be kept.
Davidhc
18:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Excuse me, millions of people use this term? Please provide a reliable source for this. Several political bloggers have used it, although notably the person for whom it is named does not. I can't see any comments above that use the "I don't like it" argument. As to the WP:NEO argument, given that search results for just about any term in Wikipedia will show Wikipedia in the top 5 results, the fact of an article here pretty well guarantees that Wikipedia has an effect on the popularity of a term (which one could term the "observation affects the outcome of an experiment" argument). There have been other recent examples where news sources and blogs have taken their information about current events right from the Wikipedia articles in development at that time. The term was coined by Atrios and deserves a place in the article about him. There is no consistent definition or usage of the term at this point. Until that stabilizes, the article should be deleted with a redirect to Atrios. The examples have to go regardless of whether or not the article is deleted. Risker 18:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- a) What print source are you talking about? The only source I saw brought up on the discussion page was a Huffington Post article that spent a total of three sentences discussing the term. I heard tell of a single mention in Editor and Publisher that is inaccessible to most readers, including myself.
- b) From WP:NEO, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." So far, we just have three sentences from HuffPo. Blogs, like it are not, are not considered reliable sources on WP.
- c) I think you're misstating WP:PAPER. Nobody is arguing that we should delete this article because it would not show up in Britannica, or anything to that effect. WP:PAPER does not justify the inclusion of articles that are poorly sourced or cover topics that are not significant enough. Those are the points of contention here, not whether this article would be included in a paper encyclopedia.
- d) I don't see anyone using the "I don't like it" argument here, and I don't expect anyone will, so I'm not sure what you're saying. If you want my subjective opinion on the term, I'm a fan of Atrios and think the term is funny and illustrative. However, objectively, it does not come close to meeting the requirements necessary to have an independent article on Wikipedia. Croctotheface 18:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- "hundreds of blogs that repeatedly use the term" is the form of argument that is required at Wiktionary, because it is an argument about whether a word is in use. It is irrelevant to Wikipedia, because it doesn't demonstrate the existences of reliable sources that document a subject. Counting Google hits is not research. To demonstrate that reliable sources exist, you have to cite sources that document (not use — document) this purported unit. You have to show, with cited sources, that this unit has been researched and documented outside of Wikipedia, in accordance with our Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research policies. Excluding the sources that cite this Wikipedia article itself as their source, and the unreliable sources such as pseudonymous postings on discussion fora, there is not a single source in this article that documents this purported unit. There's only one source that even documents the fact that one person has made the same prediction repeatedly, something that is incorrectly presented when presented in an article on a unit of measurement that has not actually been documented anywhere. Uncle G 18:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep; the article is full of citations, and not all of them are blogs; apparently, this term has indeed gained some currency in the print media. I can't see any policy this violates.
Crotalus horridus (
TALK •
CONTRIBS)
18:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- What does "gained some currency" mean? I mean, the article itself says something to that effect, but it seems to be incorrect. If anything, the section that lists publications that have used the term is misleading, as it cites blogs (say, from the Washington Monthly) but gives the impression that the term has appeared in print edition of the magazine. Croctotheface 18:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- It violates the Wikipedia:No original research policy, given that it takes roughly thirty quotations from different people talking about things that may happen months into the future and synthesizes from them the novel conclusion that there is a unit of measurement. Uncle G 18:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete: if this term really is "widely-used in print media," where are the
reliable sources demonstrating such? None of the sources cited mention the "friedman" at all.
Krimpet (
talk/
review)
20:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- See fourth paragraph. Bill Oaf 03:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Editors and Publishers Just to give one example of a secondary source: Along with the listing on the main page for the Friedman Unit, there is in individual entry in discussion page on the use of the term in an article in the print edition of Editors and Publishers. This article, you can read an excerpt included in the discussion, acknowledges that the term is widely used and is accurate in its description. This is all that is needed to verify the term Friedman Unit and keep this entry. The whole point of a secondary source is to find a reliable source (in this case a print article that was written by professional journalists and approved by professional editors) that documents the use of the term. The purpose of a secondary source is to provide documentation of existence, not act as proof of existence in itself. If you have any proof that the Editors and Publishers is not a professional print media, or that the article is a hoax, then please I would like to see it. Also, please read the article and the article's comments page before you post here and vaguely claim that reliable sources do not exist, because both the article and the discussion reliable secondary sources clearly. Davidhc 22:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. I have done several WP:HEY efforts on behalf of neologisms, and some of those resulted in a keep or no consensus result; obviously, I'm liberally inclusionist. In this case I looked around and saw little that could be done, as much as WP:ILIKEIT. I pushed and prodded in the merge discussion for reliable sources and the elimination of original research, and there was some improvement -- but ultimately there are only marginally reliable sources even using the term at all, such as The Huffington Post. Now, I could defend a list of citations of "in the next N months" predictions if and only if they were accompanied by a citation of a reliable source calling that prediction a "Friedman" (and I personally would accept Atrios for these, as this is a subarticle on his term, as long as notability had been established otherwise). I am pretty sure that a very brief such list could be extracted for illustration purposes in the Atrios article. But he hasn't done that for all of the examples cited; the list seems to be merely finding as many "in the next N months" citations as possible, which only really illustrates what Atrios is originally complaining about, i.e. the prevalence of such predictions. So most of the list would have to go even if notability were established, because it's synthesis. All that said, I have urged that the authors of the article give it a more appropriate home such as Demopedia or Dkosopedia, where the predictions may be compiled under more hospitable inclusion policies. I would indeed like it if this term were a notable neologism, but as it stands, I don't think it passes muster. -- Dhartung | Talk 22:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep. There's no denying the term's indebtedness to Atrios; however, the phrase has currency beyond Eschaton (one of the twenty most influential publications in the U.S., in my opinion) & beyond the blogosphere in general--I've heard it in conversation. It's a succinct critique of U.S. policy in Iraq and, more pointedly, of the U.S. media's failure to question authority. Billbrock 23:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, there are plenty of references in the opening paragraphs that establish this term has expanded beyond Atrios' blog - even into "mainstream". The specific political motivation in using it aside, it does seem to have become widespread in certain significant circles. If the big list of examples in the later part of the article is too ORish or otherwise unweildy it can be trimmed or removed, but that's a content and cleanup issue rather than an AfD one. Bryan Derksen 01:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep. I came upon this article and found it to be useful; I have seen the term in a number of places and was pleased to see that Wikipedia had an article on the emerging meme. Along with others, I added some sources demonstrating its use in various mainstream publications. Bill Oaf 03:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per the supporting arguments previously mentioned. In response to the Editors and Publishers argument, I'd like to point out that the article merely mentions in passing that certain bloggers use the Friedman Unit. The term appears once in the entire text, while the article itself is devoted to a different subject. However, notablility requires the topic being the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works. This neologism has never been discussed in any level of detail by a reliable source, let alone being the subject of one. —
Kelw (
talk)
05:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for acknowledging that the term has been referenced in a reliable print media. Davidhc 15:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep. Dhartung claims to "like it," then goes on to ignore all the sound arguments for keeping it as Editors hashed out over the past month in the Talk page. (I just lurked on there as I assumed those who favored merger or deletion were just a bunch of trouble-makers whose suggestions would not be taken seriously.) Many who favor deletion ignore the clear acceptance of web sources in the OR guidelines. Dhartung asserts, with no basis in fact, that HuffingtonPost is a "marginally reliable source," when (as the Talk pages make clear) it is written by well-known and highly-regarded journalists -- repeated below. He dismissively makes passing reference to "even using the term at all, such as The Huffington Post" -- while failing to mention that the phrase "Friedman Unit" won HuffPo's award for "best new phrase of 2006! That's much more than "using the term at all"! And it casts doubt on Dhartung's objectivity and good faith in this discussion.
Here is just one of the many sound arguments on the FU talk page, all of which apparently need to be copied into here if critics are not willing to engage in good faith discussion:
- The original-research guidelines state: "citing book, print, or reliable web resources [sic] demonstrates that the material is verifiable and is not merely the editor's opinion." So web resources are explicitly allowed...
- Huffington Post is a reliable web resource. It is: (i) widely read (online outranking US News & World Report, The Economist, Foreign Affairs, Washington Times, over the past year). (ii) Its feature-story writers include some of the most notable names in American politics. Well-known journalists among its blog-writers alone [21] include [starting alphabetically with "A"]: Chris Ahearn (President of Reuters!!), Mary Ann Akers (columnist for DC insiders' magazine Roll Call), Charles Alexander (23 years writing for Time Magazine), Roger Alford (law professor at Pepperdine University), Graham Allison ( Harvard University professor, former Dean of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government for 12 years, former Assistant Secretary of Defense, author of six books in political science and policy), Jonathan Alter (senior editor and colunist at Newsweek), Eric Alterman (prolific writer and commentator), Tom Andrews (former US Congressman from Maine), George Archibald (over 20 years writing for the Washington Times), etc. -- those are a few examples just from the list of last-names beginning with "A"! Huffington Post is not just some random blog populated by anyone who can type. (iii) The lead author on the Huffington Post article [22] that declared Friedman Unit to be the "best new phrase of 2006," Rachel Sklar, is widely published in: The New York Times, The New York Post, The Village Voice, Glamour, New York Magazine, The Financial Times and numerous other publications, and is a frequent guest on MSNBC's Scarborough Country TV show. [23] In short, Huffington Post clearly fits the criteria for a "reliable web resource" which "demonstrates that the material is verifiable and is not merely the editor's opinion," as specified in the Wikipedia guideline on no original research. And HuffPost declared "Friedman Unit" to be the best new phrase of 2006.
Again, that's just one of many dozens of sound arguments for keeping this article, despite any doubts raised on first-glance. Eugene Banks 08:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Huffington Post may be a reliable source. However, the article that mentioned the term was about another subject and spent a total of three sentences on the term. As others have noted, that is not sufficient to establish that a neologism should have an article on Wikipedia. Croctotheface 11:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Also, just to clarify, everything that is "not original reserach" does not automaticlaly become notable. In order for a subject to have its own article, it must be notable. As such, your quote from WP:NOR deals with whether or not text can be included within an article, not whether a topic can have its own Wikipedia article. The standard at WP:N, as others have mentioned, is being "the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works". I don't see a single published work, let alone a "substantial' or "non-trivial" one, of which the Friedman unit is the subject. It was mentioned in a trivial way (3 sentences) in a Huffington Post article. It was not the subject of that article by a long shot. It was apparently mentioned in passing in an Editor and Publisher article. Again, it was not the subject of that article. Where's the notability here? Croctotheface 12:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
What's the best protocol, should all discussion on this be placed here (copied here -- as only a small portion of the anti-delete arguments have been so far), or left on the article's Talk page? I'm increasingly suspecting that the arguments for deletion are a disguised form of POV, most likely relating to the highly contentious Iraq war. E.g.:
- Do not delete. I spent only 5 minutes googling this term, and what do I find: an interview on CNN TV, by Howard Kurtz no less, in which Tom Friedman himself is asked about his repeated use of the "six month" time-frame. No mention of Atrios. It is such a common notion that Kurtz doesn't even feel the need to name his source. He doesn't use the exact two words "Friedman" and "Unit", but there is no question what he is referring to: "you [Tom Friedman] were chided recently for writing several times in different occasions 'the next six months are crucial in Iraq,' 'the next six months.'" This article never should have been flagged in the first place. Eugene Banks 09:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Generally, whenever someone uses an "it must be" type of construction, it's because he or she believes something but recognizes that the sources don't actually support it. In this case, you're arguing that "there is no question" over what Kurtz is referring to, but if there were, why doesn't he mention it? Why do you need to hang your hat on the rather dubious notion that this term is SO notable that nobody even needs to use it? We're dealing with a neologism that currently has its own article, not a question of whether Friedman was criticized in a notable way over his repeated use of "the next six months" in relation to Iraq. I would agree that in the latter case that it is completely legitimate to mention that Friedman has been criticized. That could go, say, here:
Thomas Friedman#Friedman Unit. However, the fact that a subject meets the threshold of verifiability required to be mentioned WITHIN articles is not the same as achieving notability through
multiple non-trivial mentions in reliable sourcesbeing "the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works" per WP:N. Without notability, the term can't have its own article. Croctotheface 11:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)- The main article on the Friedman Unit cites at least three print publications which cover the term in their articles. This meets the guideline of "multiple non-trivial published works." If you disagree, then please explain how these three publications do not meet the "non-trivial" standard. Davidhc 16:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Could you help me by pointing them out here? All the publications I see cited in the paragraph I assume you're talking about mentioned the "unit" in their blogs, except for E&P. Croctotheface 16:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Also note that the term must be the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. Even if The American Prospect or Washington Monthly mentioned the term in the print edition of their publications, and not merely their blogs, "mentioned in" or "used in" do not meet the standard of notability that I quoted. Croctotheface 16:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Let's see. An interview of Friedman. Lots of talk about "six months." No use of the term "Friedman unit." If I had seen that interview, would I have any reason to think that "six months" would equal "Friedman unit" or vice versa? If the term was not used in the interview, then the interview cannot in any way be used as an example of the term. Risker 12:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Generally, whenever someone uses an "it must be" type of construction, it's because he or she believes something but recognizes that the sources don't actually support it. In this case, you're arguing that "there is no question" over what Kurtz is referring to, but if there were, why doesn't he mention it? Why do you need to hang your hat on the rather dubious notion that this term is SO notable that nobody even needs to use it? We're dealing with a neologism that currently has its own article, not a question of whether Friedman was criticized in a notable way over his repeated use of "the next six months" in relation to Iraq. I would agree that in the latter case that it is completely legitimate to mention that Friedman has been criticized. That could go, say, here:
Thomas Friedman#Friedman Unit. However, the fact that a subject meets the threshold of verifiability required to be mentioned WITHIN articles is not the same as achieving notability through
Multiple non-trivial sources There seems to be a lot of confusion over examples that people bring up in discussion and the examples that are in the article. (If you have good examples of the use of the term, please add them to the article.) The sources currently cited in the article are:
- Editor & Publisher
- The American Prospect
- Think Progress (the official online publication of the Center for American Progress),
- Daily Kos
- Washington Monthly
- Huffington Post
If you want to delete this article, then you are going to have to prove why ALL of these sources do not meet the non-trivial guidelines (I would say most of them are way above the criteria for non-trivial). You can not just go on slamming the Huffington Post or examples that are not in the main article and then say there is no notability. Please stick to the text. Davidhc 16:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- We've discussed E&P and HuffPo at length already, so I won't repeat those arguments again. Daily Kos is a blog. The American Prospect citation is from TAPPED, the publication's blog. The Washington Monthly citation is from Kevin Drum's blog, which is published on the WM's website. In your last comment, you said that "three print publications...cover the term in their articles". In fact, this coverage is from blogs, which is not the same thing, per WP:Reliable sources. Besides that, these blogs just use the term, which is enough to satisfy inclusion in Wiktionary, but not here. You have yet to show that the "Friedman unit" is the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. Croctotheface 16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for acknowledging that the term Friedman Unit is covered in all of the sources listed above. Please also note, that as explained above in the discussion, the wikipedia guidelines do not exclude blogs. So please explain to me why this article is up for deletion?
Davidhc
17:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Per official Wikipedia policy WP:A, blogs are self-published and therefore cannot be reliable sources. I'm not sure which Wikipedia guideline you are referring to. — Kelw ( talk) 17:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Civility is valued here, first of all. Second, "covered in X sources" does not establish notability. As I've said more than once now, WP:N calls for a topic to be "the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works" for it to meet the threshold of notability required for it to have an article. I have not seen a single published work that the "Friedman unit" is the subject of. I've seen it used in a couple of blog posts, and maybe mentioned in passing here or there, but that's it. Regarding blogs, I suggest you reread WP:RS. Blogs written by experts whose blogs cover their area of expertise can occasionally be used as sources for content, subject to very specific restrictions, per WP:SPS. Kevin Drum's blog, for instance, may have a sufficient pedigree to source content, though even something like that could very likely lead to disputes. However, something can be sufficient to source content within articles and still fall well short of establishing notability required for a topic to have its own article. I'd recommend rereading all the policies and guidelines at issue here if you're still a bit unclear about the difference. Croctotheface 17:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do not delete, do not merge, do not blank. Croc, firstly, you seem to be engaging in the following style of argumentation: You make argument X. Opponents make arguments A, B, and C. You then conclude "We've already discussed X," trying to get the last word while ignoring the previous discussion. (And if X is rebutted, you then add argument Y.) WP:Reliable Sources concludes: "This page in a nutshell: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." This has been done, with Friedman unit, many times over. Additional sources keep being added -- I just added CNN (see above). The fact that E&P has an article with FU as a subject is really all a WP article needs as proof of reliable sourcing and non-original research. (Perhaps a definition of "subject" is in order? Wiktionary: "Subject: 1. In a clause: the word or word group [usually a noun phrase] that is dealt with.") You keep raising the bar on this article as to what a reliable source must be. (Now it seems you're saying it must be the only subject of an article? That's ridiculous. Or perhaps only appearing in a mass-circulation magazine? But E&P is far more notable and credible than e.g. Time Magazine. Each time you ignore new evidence and previous arguments I suspect you are surreptitiously engaging in POV.) The fact that HuffingtonPost is a highly credible online source (whose authors and editorial process are better than most print outlets) also stands alone as sufficient sourcing. (Perhaps we should examine the credibility of journalists and editorial process in other sources frequently used on Wikipedia; the Washington Times comes to mind immediately.) On a whim I just Googled and discovered that the FU concept has been picked up in French, as well, e.g. "Ca vaut les six mois de Friedman pour un dénouement en Irak." The fact that there are many sources for Friedman Unit (including the others cited elsewhere, Kevin Drum, CNN, Washington Monthly, etc.) casts doubt on your willingness to engage in reasonable discussion.
- Secondly, part of the confusion may be a philosophical difference. What is important is the
Platonic ideal of the concept, the abstraction. Ideas are more important than physical manifestations of things. So what is important about "
Friedman unit" is the concept (including the never-ending series of six-month projections about war that are forgotten as the period ends, and the widespread uses of this concept which needs to be demonstrated by examples). Thus, the fact that Kurtz on CNN did not use the 10 letters (a, d, e, f, i, m, n, r, t, and u) rearranged to spell "Friedman Unit" is truly not important. There is no doubt that Kurtz, interviewing Friedman about the latter's repeated use of a never-ending six-month horizon in regards to the Iraq war, is discussing this concept. Critics of this page may be more
Aristotelian in outlook, but there is room on Wikipedia for articles of both types, and measuring up to one approach or the other is not grounds for deletion, merging, or blanking. Being overly concerned with minutiae and detail about guidelines is not helpful for Wikipedians, especially when combined with a tone that is perceived as condescending, even if it is not being used as a cloak for POV.
Eugene Banks
18:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- To your second point: what is important, per
WP:NEO, is very much the "abstraction", in this case the neologism ("Friedman unit") in question, rather than the concept. To quote the guideline, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." (Emphasis in original.) So, yes, to your first point, sources that establish notability DO need to be ABOUT the topic of the article. That is, indeed,
the whole pointa major tenet of WP:N. Croctotheface 18:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC) - Also, I'm going to ask you to chilll out a little bit regarding the tone of some of your comments. I don't think it's really productive to accuse me of being a POV pusher or accusing me of moving the goalposts or anything of that nature. These type of comments, per WP:CIVIL, are generally not considered productive for discussion and establishing consensus. Croctotheface 18:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Editors and Publishers article is a reliable secondary source about the term, it is not an article that simply uses the term.
Davidhc
18:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- If the text I found through a Google search here is accurate, then this is an article about the concept of Friedman repeatedly saying "the next six months" that mentions the term in one sentence, but it's not an article about the term. Croctotheface 18:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for finding the full text of the article. This full article definitely confirms as a secondary source that the Friedman Unit is an accurate and correct term for describing the use of the phrase "The next six months" in the style of Thomas Friedman. As you can see, the article starts by presenting the term "the Friedman Unit" in the opening paragraph, explains how it applies to the use of the phrase "the next six months", and makes a special note that the word did not originate in the article itself. This is what a secondary source is supposed to do.
Davidhc
19:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but the article is about Friedman and his procilvity to talk about "the next six months", not the term. The article MENTIONS the term, but it is not ABOUT the term itself. Basically, the Wikipedia article covers the term in far more detail than any other source. This should simply not happen. One sentence in E&P, three sentences in HuffPo...that's just not enough for an encyclopedia article. I'm actually inclined to agree with you that "Freidman unit" is a meaningful phrase with descriptive power and so forth. However, that in itself does not merit a WP article. The term can be covered in Atrios and at Wiktionary to the same effect. Croctotheface 00:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- The E&P article is about the Friedman Unit, it talks about nothing but the Friedman Unit, in fact the article proves that the Friedman Unit was not a "one off" event because the main body of the article is on how Thomas Friedman continues to use the Friedman Unit. This article in combination with the other references given meet the criteria of "multiple non-trivial sources". Please see my next entry. Davidhc 21:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- To your second point: what is important, per
WP:NEO, is very much the "abstraction", in this case the neologism ("Friedman unit") in question, rather than the concept. To quote the guideline, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." (Emphasis in original.) So, yes, to your first point, sources that establish notability DO need to be ABOUT the topic of the article. That is, indeed,
This article is legitimate as determined by the wikipedia guidelines and so it shoudl be kept. The "multiple non-trivial sources" given in this article prove that this article is a legitimate entry in Wikipedia. Wikipedia guidelines do a good job of making sure that articles are not hoaxes or inventions of their editors or made for the pure purpose of pushing neologisms that are not already widespread (by that I mean a neologism that is an invention of the editor). The Friedman Unit is a fact that exists outside of the context of this article, as the sources given in the article prove, and this article does an excellent job of presenting an encyclopedic summary of that fact to the general public. There is nothing more that you can ask of an encyclopedia. Davidhc 21:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Again, the E&P article mentions the Friedman Unit in one sentence and then talks about a different subject. As other editors have already said many, many times, that is simply not enough to meet WP:A. I don't know why you say the article "talks about nothing but the Friedman Unit", because that is just not true. You don't need to bring this up repeatedly and bold every paragraph. And I'm not sure which guidelines you keep referring to, but without reliable sources this article would certainly not meet WP:NEO. — Kelw ( talk) 23:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep for now: if you merge with Atrios you also have to merge with Thomas Friedman. The 'next six months' phenomenon in Friedman's columns is notable and supported by multiple non-trivial sources, dating from the original FAIR article. If editors are prepared to migrate discussion of the phenomenon to the Friedman entry (where it currently has an 'original research' tag) then discussion of the 'Friedman Unit' neologism can be migrated to the Atrios entry with an appropriate cross-reference. But I think the Friedman merge cannot be ignored, and has to occur at the same time, because the 'next six months' phenomenon is not limited to discussions by Atrios. Holgate 22:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article does not contain any verifiable information that hasn't already been merged into
Atrios. If you wish to merge into the Friedman article, that can be done from the Atrios article after a consensus is obtained on the Friedman talk page. You might argue the "six months" phenomenon is notable, but in my opintion this article on a neologism is clearly not notable and needs to be deleted. —
Kelw (
talk)
23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes no sense whatsoever. the elements of the article that should be merged into the Friedman article (on the repeated 'next six months') are ones that shouldn't be merged into the Atrios article, on basic relevance grounds. Hence my vote: the 'next six months' material is notable and verifiable for Friedman, and dumping it off in the Atrios article as a half-way house just shifts the issue without resolving it. If the neologism is notable enough to merge with the Atrios article, then the thing to which it refers needs to be in its proper place. (In short: if A coins term B to refer to what X says about Y, then the discussion of Y needs to be on X's page, not A's.) Merge to both, or keep for now.
Holgate
01:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please maintain a civil tone and refrain attacks like "that makes no sense whatsoever". If you insist, you can take out what doesn't belong in the Atrios article and place it in the Friedman article. The "six months" phenomenon can easily be summarized in a single sentence on Friedman's article, with a reference linking to the FAIR article. Beyond this, all the content is either original research or already merged. There is no need to keep this article around if you want to merge into Friedman's article. —
Kelw (
talk)
02:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please refrain from reflexive accusations of incivility:
WP:CIVIL is not a cudgel to be waved indiscriminately. The 'six months' phenomenon deserves more than a single sentence, but I'm going to deal with that over at the Friedman article and start a more substantial merge.
Holgate
13:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, you have pretty well defined the debate here. If the article was called "Six months," then it would be overwhelmingly well sourced. The point is that the reliable sources do NOT use the term "Friedman Unit." Politicians and pundits have used the "six month" expression for (lest I date myself) generations, about all kinds of situations. The article gives a definition of the term Friedman unit as a "six month period" but then exclusively provides examples from the Iraq war discussions - not one of which uses the term "Friedman unit" or the variations ("Friedman," "F.U.").
Risker
13:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- You make a good argument for looking to see if there are sufficient secondary sources to use for an an "Antecedents" section (cognates before "FU" was coined), while keeping in compliance with OR/synthesis guidelines. Since these may be more likely to appear in books, not digital form, it may be some time before these are unearthed. But this is no argument for deleting the article.
- I think we've reached a degree of consensus here, Kelw: I've sketched out the 'six months' criticism on the Friedman article, providing mutual links between that section and the Atrios article. That's the space that this neologism should really occupy. The quotations are worth saving somewhere, though Demopedia/DKosopedia seems more appropriate. Holgate 18:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Re: Huffington Post as a reliable source: although there are blog-sections on HuffPost, it is far more than that. As the Editor of Salon magazine recently wrote: "I root for the Politico [website] and other growing publications less new to the Web, like the Huffington Post and Josh Marshall's growing Talking Points empire, because if Salon is right about the future of Web publishing (and I believe we are) we can't, won't and shouldn't be the only ones (besides bloggers) [sic] making an independent go of it out here. So I applaud the Politico and the journalists who've been lured from old media to explore the new world." So the editor of Salon distinguishes HuffPost from bloggers. It does not make sense to apply WP guidelines on any old blog to online news sites edited and written by experienced and highly-regarded journalists. Eugene Banks 16:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, you have pretty well defined the debate here. If the article was called "Six months," then it would be overwhelmingly well sourced. The point is that the reliable sources do NOT use the term "Friedman Unit." Politicians and pundits have used the "six month" expression for (lest I date myself) generations, about all kinds of situations. The article gives a definition of the term Friedman unit as a "six month period" but then exclusively provides examples from the Iraq war discussions - not one of which uses the term "Friedman unit" or the variations ("Friedman," "F.U.").
Risker
13:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please refrain from reflexive accusations of incivility:
WP:CIVIL is not a cudgel to be waved indiscriminately. The 'six months' phenomenon deserves more than a single sentence, but I'm going to deal with that over at the Friedman article and start a more substantial merge.
Holgate
13:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please maintain a civil tone and refrain attacks like "that makes no sense whatsoever". If you insist, you can take out what doesn't belong in the Atrios article and place it in the Friedman article. The "six months" phenomenon can easily be summarized in a single sentence on Friedman's article, with a reference linking to the FAIR article. Beyond this, all the content is either original research or already merged. There is no need to keep this article around if you want to merge into Friedman's article. —
Kelw (
talk)
02:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes no sense whatsoever. the elements of the article that should be merged into the Friedman article (on the repeated 'next six months') are ones that shouldn't be merged into the Atrios article, on basic relevance grounds. Hence my vote: the 'next six months' material is notable and verifiable for Friedman, and dumping it off in the Atrios article as a half-way house just shifts the issue without resolving it. If the neologism is notable enough to merge with the Atrios article, then the thing to which it refers needs to be in its proper place. (In short: if A coins term B to refer to what X says about Y, then the discussion of Y needs to be on X's page, not A's.) Merge to both, or keep for now.
Holgate
01:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article does not contain any verifiable information that hasn't already been merged into
Atrios. If you wish to merge into the Friedman article, that can be done from the Atrios article after a consensus is obtained on the Friedman talk page. You might argue the "six months" phenomenon is notable, but in my opintion this article on a neologism is clearly not notable and needs to be deleted. —
Kelw (
talk)
23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep - While blogs might not be reliable sources in general, they are precisely what is needed to establish the usage of a neologism. If you take a walk and every third person you meet uses a particular neologism, it doesn't matter if the people you've met are experts on the subject the neologism is part of, or whether they are experts on usage, or whether they even properly understand the word or are using it correctly. What matters is that their very use of the word establishes the diffusion of the neologism into the general population, which is really the point. So, if a lot of different blogs are using "Friedman unit", then the word is in usage, whether or not the bloggers understand the first thing about Iraq or Thomas Friedman.
Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)
14:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's a dictionary's job,
not an encyclopedia's, to document usage of words.
Pan Dan
16:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is, however, an encyclopedia's job to provide background on what it means, where it came from, what provoked its coinage, who coined it, the spread of its use, debate about the meaning, etc. etc. etc. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 01:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's a dictionary's job,
not an encyclopedia's, to document usage of words.
Pan Dan
16:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Arbitrary section break
Comment: Last night I went through the first 500 google-hits on the term "Friedman Unit." Out of that 500, there was exactly one link that constituted a reliable source, and it is already in the article. Perhaps more crucially, there were also almost 100 mirrors of the Wikipedia article, and at least 50 more that said "Wikipedia defines...." And of course WP was #1 and #2 on the google-hit parade. In other words - Wikipedia's entry is directly or indirectly responsible for 150 out of 500 of the top google-hits on this term. It certainly looks to me that WP:NEO is an issue here. Risker 23:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for acknowledging that there are reliable sources for this article. Please see my own test results below. Davidhc 17:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
An experiment: This may seem like overkill, but I ran a quick test of my own because this is an issue that is important to ALL entries in wikipedia. I ran three variations of google searches for the Friedman Unit to see how it faired alone, with, and without wikipedia in the search criteria using the search terms:
1) "Friedman Unit" 2) "Friedman Unit" wikipedia 3) "Friedman Unit" -wikipedia
The results were as follows:
Friedman Unit alone: 259,000 (Wikipedia entry was first hit) with: 587 without: 261,000
(NOTE: if you run Friedman Unit without the quotes you get over 1.5 million hits)
To get a random sample of wikipedia to compare it to, I hit the "random article" link five times and did the same test on the pages it gave me. The results were as follows:
Thottiyam alone: 546 (wikipedia first hit) with wikipedia: 92 without wikipedia: 510
Air transports of heads of state alone: 226 (wikipedia second hit) with: 154 without: 64
Yamaha DX7 alone: 127,000 (wikipedia 3rd hit) with: 963 without: 118,000
Music at Work alone: 77,900 (wikipedia 6th hit) with: 553 without: 73,100
Enfield Town F.C. alone: 559 (wikipedia 3rd hit) with: 226 without: 508
As you can see, ALL the entries came up with wikipedia in the top 10 hits. Also, the Friedman Unit has by far the best ratio of with to without than any of the five random entries, which means that by the argument given above, we would have to delete ALL of these entries, and I am sure many more. The reason wikipedia shows up is not because of the popularity of any given article, but because of the popularity of wikipedia in general. When people want a source to link a topic in their web page, they link to wikipedia. All the copycat sites know this, and so they farm off the wikipedia entries to get traffic. Hence there is a big difference between a site that mirrors the wikipedia article and someone saying "as defined by wikipedia" in their web page. Making the argument that a wikipedia page is somehow pushing a neologism only applies if that term does not exist anywhere else but in wikipedia. The multiple non-trivial sources given in the article on the Friedman unit prove that the term is in wide use without the help of the article. Davidhc 17:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- As another editor already mentioned, counting Google hits is not research. Do you have any "reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term" to satisfy the standard set at
WP:NEO? Please recall that the "six month phenomenon" that the term describes is NOT the same thing as the term itself. So far, all I can see that you have is three sentences from HuffPo and one sentence from E&P.
Where's the beef?
Croctotheface
21:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry Croc if you got confused. If you scroll up a bit, then you will see the comment that I was responding to. But thank you for repeating the fact that google hits alone do not insure notability. I didn't feel it was necessary to repeat that fact in order to refute the claims of neologism that I was responding to, but I guess it would have been sufficient. Still, when you read the comment I was responding to you will see that Risker in his google search gave further confirmation to the fact that one of the references listed in the article is in fact a "reliable source."
Davidhc
00:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- You're not actually responding to what I asked. I asked if you know of a reliable source of which the "Friedman Unit" is the SUBJECT. That is, not merely mentioned or used in the article, but article itself is ON the "Unit". Not on Friedman or his proclivity to set arbitrary dates in the future, but the actual neologism that we're talking about. It is my contention that I have yet to see a single reliable source that is ON the Friedman unit. I've seen a one sentence mention in a reliable source. That does not establish notability. Do you know of any reliable sources of which the "Friedman unit" is the subject? That is, if you asked the author of the piece what it is about, he or she would likely say, "well, this is an article about the Friedman unit"?
Croctotheface
01:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- That strikes me as an overly stringent interpretation of 'reliable sourcing', and ignores the multiple non-trivial standard that has already been demonstrated. Nowhere do the guidelines on
reliable sources,
notability,
attribution,
original research, etc. state or hint that an article must be the sole subject of a reliable source. Nor do guidelines say that these sources must be about e.g., the etymology, origins, history, definition, existence qua neologism, or usage of a term, that would misconstrue the guidelines. Much of Wikipedia would fail this test, and not just
crappy articles. A source in which the concept is a theme or featured prominently is clearly sufficient. I respectfully disagree with your assessment that
Friedman unit is not the subject of reliable sources as cited in the article, it's Talk page, and above. For example:
- It is a significant subject of the E&P article, as Davidhc enumerated above: "The E&P article is about the Friedman Unit, [...] in fact the article proves that the Friedman Unit was not a 'one off' event because the main body of the article is on how Thomas Friedman continues to use the Friedman Unit." It would, of course, be very difficult to write an article on it and not "mention Friedman and his proclivity to set arbitrary dates in the future," as E&P did, so of course those subjects are present as well.
- The online magazine Huffington Post, a reliable source (as documented above), deems the phrase "Friedman Unit" to be the best new phrase of 2006.
- The phrase is a also significant subject of the CNN interview; even if the exact phrase itself is not used, Kurtz is clearly asking Friedman about the concept.
- An online column (not a blog) for The American Prospect notes that "Friedman has become justly famous for the Friedman Unit -- a 6-month, endlessly renewable time period that will prove critical for Iraq."
- As noted above, the guidelines' caution on use of blogs as a source is not absolute. And in this case (as discussed on the Talk page and here), there are good reasons why one might also consider blogs (such as DailyKos or the thousands of others that use the term) as "multiple non-trivial sources'. Namely, the concept FU contains within it a critique of traditional media (for a lack of critical reporting on the Iraq war early on), hence its widespread usage in informal circles as well as the reliable sources documented above.
- While Google is not a reliable research source, on the other hand at some point in establishing the widespread usage of a term, quantity has it's own quality, and 250,000 hits for "Friedman unit" should not be ignored.
- Etc. Twedle 06:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- That strikes me as an overly stringent interpretation of 'reliable sourcing', and ignores the multiple non-trivial standard that has already been demonstrated. Nowhere do the guidelines on
reliable sources,
notability,
attribution,
original research, etc. state or hint that an article must be the sole subject of a reliable source. Nor do guidelines say that these sources must be about e.g., the etymology, origins, history, definition, existence qua neologism, or usage of a term, that would misconstrue the guidelines. Much of Wikipedia would fail this test, and not just
crappy articles. A source in which the concept is a theme or featured prominently is clearly sufficient. I respectfully disagree with your assessment that
Friedman unit is not the subject of reliable sources as cited in the article, it's Talk page, and above. For example:
- You're not actually responding to what I asked. I asked if you know of a reliable source of which the "Friedman Unit" is the SUBJECT. That is, not merely mentioned or used in the article, but article itself is ON the "Unit". Not on Friedman or his proclivity to set arbitrary dates in the future, but the actual neologism that we're talking about. It is my contention that I have yet to see a single reliable source that is ON the Friedman unit. I've seen a one sentence mention in a reliable source. That does not establish notability. Do you know of any reliable sources of which the "Friedman unit" is the subject? That is, if you asked the author of the piece what it is about, he or she would likely say, "well, this is an article about the Friedman unit"?
Croctotheface
01:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry Croc if you got confused. If you scroll up a bit, then you will see the comment that I was responding to. But thank you for repeating the fact that google hits alone do not insure notability. I didn't feel it was necessary to repeat that fact in order to refute the claims of neologism that I was responding to, but I guess it would have been sufficient. Still, when you read the comment I was responding to you will see that Risker in his google search gave further confirmation to the fact that one of the references listed in the article is in fact a "reliable source."
Davidhc
00:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- If you disagree with the guideline, that's fine, but it's unambiguous here.
WP:NEO says, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." The word "about" is italicized WITHIN THE GUIDELINE. Some people here seem to be operating as if WP guidelines and policies say something like "if a topic is mentioned at all in any reliable source, it should have a Wikipedia article." That is not the case.
Croctotheface
13:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Yes, and as discussed above, the cited articles are about the term (as well as other subjects). "Some people" is an unrefutable charge. "as if... something like... 'topic mentioned at all in any reliable source'" --
sarcasm is not constructive. Btw, the page on neologisms is simply an ongoing discussion of possible guidelines. There are four higher levels of policy and dozens of other guidelines. At the top, see for example the
Five Pillars of Wikipedia. Below that, see the
Simplified Ruleset of 15 rules. Below even that, see the
Wikipedia:List of policies with 42 policies. Where "neologism" fits is one section below even that, under "No Original Research," for which the main policy is: "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas." FU clearly fits this overarching policy. And within WP:OR, the emphasis is on attribution: the guidance is only against neologisms "without attributing the neologism to a reputable source." The roots of the Neologism page, which is one layer further down, stated: "Wikipedia doesn't accept fan-made neologisms unless they have realistic evidence of existence via search engine hits (e.g. Google)." This was strengthened to weed out editors who created a term on their own blog, then -- with
nolittle other adoption of the term -- promoting it within Wikipedia. Although a few Google hits to random blogs set up by just anyone are no longer seen as a reputable source, FU goes far beyond this. BipDeBop 17:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Yes, and as discussed above, the cited articles are about the term (as well as other subjects). "Some people" is an unrefutable charge. "as if... something like... 'topic mentioned at all in any reliable source'" --
sarcasm is not constructive. Btw, the page on neologisms is simply an ongoing discussion of possible guidelines. There are four higher levels of policy and dozens of other guidelines. At the top, see for example the
Five Pillars of Wikipedia. Below that, see the
Simplified Ruleset of 15 rules. Below even that, see the
Wikipedia:List of policies with 42 policies. Where "neologism" fits is one section below even that, under "No Original Research," for which the main policy is: "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas." FU clearly fits this overarching policy. And within WP:OR, the emphasis is on attribution: the guidance is only against neologisms "without attributing the neologism to a reputable source." The roots of the Neologism page, which is one layer further down, stated: "Wikipedia doesn't accept fan-made neologisms unless they have realistic evidence of existence via search engine hits (e.g. Google)." This was strengthened to weed out editors who created a term on their own blog, then -- with
- If you disagree with the guideline, that's fine, but it's unambiguous here.
WP:NEO says, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." The word "about" is italicized WITHIN THE GUIDELINE. Some people here seem to be operating as if WP guidelines and policies say something like "if a topic is mentioned at all in any reliable source, it should have a Wikipedia article." That is not the case.
Croctotheface
13:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Second arbitrary section break
Keep. It's out there, it's in use, it's a popular concept. I don't understand the urge to strip Wikipedia of articles. Nor do I understand people who contribute to an online encyclopedia that anybody can edit turning up their noses at blogs. Vidor 04:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Don't worry about people slamming blogs. In general its a good guideline to have as it prevents people from pushing their own ideas and then backing it up with their own blogs. Also, in the current case of the Friedman Unit, it has all the references it needs to meet the criteria set out in the guidelines, so people can go on slamming blogs all they want, it won't make a difference. Davidhc 06:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Delete - The article cites many cases of people saying things will happen in 6 months, 3 months, 6-9 months etc. It cites no use (except by a blogger) of the term itself. If some one can come up with a citable use of the term 'Friedman unit' itself, they should do so and add it to the article. Otherwise it is a mere neologism. Peterkingiron 13:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- With all due respect, these issues (usage, citations, reputation of online magazines, role of blogs) have been addressed above. BipDeBop 19:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Keep. Re: neologisms. Since this seems to be the main focus of requests for deletion, I've synthesized some of these points here, with minor improvements/ clarifications/ rejoinders. I hope this is OK with others. (My apologies in advance if not, I'm not trying to claim credit for these, nor put words in the original commenters' mouths, nor just repeat them. I'm trying to move the discussion forward.) BipDeBop 19:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- The neologism rule is in place to keep people from using Wikipedia to coin a term. In the case of the Friedman Unit, the term is already widely used without the help of this article. While the google test does not assure notability of a term, the many and varied hit results for the Friedman Unit show that it is widely used by millions of people. (User:Risker asked for a reliable source on the estimate of "millions." An appeal to logic: with 260,000 Google hits for FU, including a number of widely-read online magazines and blogs, it is reasonable to conjecture that on average each hit was read by at least 8 people, thus two million is a reasonable working estimate for purposes of discussion.)
- Wikipedia guidelines do a good job of making sure that articles are not hoaxes or inventions of their editors or made for the pure purpose of pushing neologisms that are not already widespread (by that I mean a neologism that is an invention of the editor). The Friedman Unit is a fact that exists outside of the context of this article, as the sources given in the article prove, and this article does an excellent job of presenting an encyclopedic summary of that fact to the general public. (The E&P article does not just "mention the Friedman Unit in one sentence and then talks about a different subject," as discussed elsewhere.)
- What matters is the widespread online use of the word establishes the diffusion of the neologism into the general population, which is really the point. (The article goes on to provide far more than a mere dictionary definition.)
- Making the argument that a wikipedia page is somehow pushing a neologism only applies if that term does not exist anywhere else but in wikipedia. The multiple non-trivial sources given in the article on the Friedman unit prove that the term is in wide use without the help of the article.
- Please also note the the restrictions on neologisms are designed to prevent the creation of new terms through Wikipedia, not describing existing uses (from secondary sources). This article does not "define or introduce new terms or provide new definitions of existing terms," it simply reports on an existing neologism with widespread adoption. "Articles that use neologisms should be edited to ensure they conform with the core Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Attribution," which this article does. The primary source for the term was (it seems) Atrios. The secondary sources include the Editor & Publisher article, and references in the journals listed in the article. This page is a tertiary article.
- WP's VfD/AfD process has been horribly mangled, if not outright broken, for quite some time now, as people move beyond the entirely laudable goal of culling vanity cruft and spam to grind all of the sharp points off of articles at the edge of Wikipedia — precisely those articles where Wikipedia is most useful, IMHO, in that one can find plenty of good information sources for "Yugoslavia" or "Aaron Burr", but not so many good information sources on, say, Kazu Kibuishi's Copper. I think that "Friedman Unit" is squarely within the ambit of acceptable articles for Wikipedia.
- Trying to squelch a legitimate new term is as much an abuse of "avoid neologisms" policy as is trying to promote a not-yet-accepted term. (Perhaps someone should revise the neologism policy to reflect this. As Bryan pointed out, WP guidelines are in a state of flux, especially on WP:ATT, WP:RS, WP:OR, etc.)
- While it is true that "other crap exists" is not a valid argument unto itself, it is also true that guidelines emerge up from the consensus of editing on other articles. In the context of all the arguments for (and against) this page, consider why is Cheese-eating surrender monkeys an article if FU isn't? The "Cheese-eating" article even begins by stating that within a year or two of inception "the phrase began to fall into disuse." Why don't those who favor deleting FU also favor deleting "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys"? (I do not advocate this.) Here are just a few other hastily-gathered random examples of neologisms with articles in Wikipedia: WikiWikiWeb, PmWiki, CRC, Delimiter, InterWiki, Metacharacter, Spyce, Leet, l33t, n00bs, B1FF, -izzle, boxen, warez, SFV, kewl, CDisplay, CDisplayEx, Zipeg, ARJ. If all these are allowed, then why not Friedman unit? Converely, if FU is deleted then all these and thousands of other neologisms must be as well. (We could invite their editors into this discussion, perhaps relocated onto NEO:Talk, but this would seem to be unnecessarily provoking controversy. However, if a strict interpretation of neologism guidelines were adopted here then it would have to be applied to all these other articles as well.) Unlike most of these examples, FU does in fact does have an article about it in reliable sources, including E&P. Even if it did not, an encyclopedia should not discriminate against neologisms with a social, controversial, or political usage, while allowing neologisms relating to technology or the Internet.
BipDeBop 19:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment. I'm no longer going to attempt to engage in the specifics of the debate here. If editors are going to insist that an article that mentions a term for one sentence is "about" the term, I don't really think that there's much hope for arriving at any kind of common ground. It seems to me that most of the arguments in favor of keeping amount to "it's important" or "I like it", which, obviously, are not the same as notability. I want to repeat, for probably the second or third time, that any and all relevant information about this term can be presented at Atrios and, potentially, Thomas Friedman. The current page can become a redirect. Nothing of value will be lost in doing this: this is not an attempt to erase the term. It simply does not meet the standards required to have its own Wikipedia article. Croctotheface 13:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Arguments for deletion
When I originally merged I used the following arguments. I consider them still to be valid and I still think the article should be deleted and a summary merged with Atrios.
WP:NEO does not apply solely to terms coined for or on Wikipedia:
- The Friedman Unit is undoubtedly a neologism. The source is recent and known. Secondary sources almost invariably use the same primary source, Duncan Black's weblog.
- While the page makes note that such things must be referenced, WP:NEO specifically mentions page intended to track the growth and adoption of neologisms as an example of infringing articles. it should be noted that this is the primary purpose of this page.
WP:SYN discourages the collation of various unrelated sources to advance an original argument:
- Few if any of the "sources" listed in the main table have ever heard of the term "Friedman Unit", let along used it themselves. Using them as "references" for the Friedman (unit) article directly fails WP:SYN.
In addition, and importantly:
- Practically all of this is taken from sources Black has linked himself. In essence, it's just a distillation of a bunch of Eschaton posts.
There are far better places for such research than Wikipedia. WP:NOT Lexis-Nexis.
This really belongs in either list of political epithets or in the Atrios article for these reasons. An expansive article on the term is unwarranted and really not greatly suitable for an encyclopedia.
Chris Cunningham 14:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Consensus for Keep?? No consensus for keep
Thank you Croctotheface, Risker, and Dhartung for changing your position from delete to keep with edits. If there is now a consensus to keep the article, then I think it is time to end the deletion debate and move back to the normal editing discussion on the article's talk page. If you would like to edit the article, however, please refrain from deleting large sections without reaching a consensus through the proper discussions. Davidhc 17:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I have most certainly NOT changed my position from delete, and you know perfectly well that is the case. Regardless of the merit of an article, I personally feel if I am going to to take a position (whether keep or delete) at an AfD, then I have accepted an obligation to try to improve the article. The fact that the three of us have all deleted the original research from the article, only to be reverted with tags such as "vandalism," makes a mockery of this process. I have retitled this section because the former title borders on
NPA, and at minimum is beyond presumptuous.
Risker
17:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I thought this was pretty bizarre as well. Croctotheface's last comment was a belief that the best result would be a merge and last edit was a removal of the contentious table. How this can be construed as a U-turn is beyond me. Chris Cunningham 18:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- My position is very much for delete with redirect to Atrios. This comment from Davidhc strikes me as very, very strange. Croctotheface 18:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's clear at this point that there is no consensus to either delete or keep. With some improvements and judicious content decisions, this article should be a keep, especially in light of the multiple reliable sources cited as using the term. Bill Oaf 01:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't Take the law into your own hands We have not heard back from Dhartung, but if you all are still strongly for deletion, then your efforts to erase large sections of the article currently under debate in the absence of any consensus over those sections, can only be interpreted as having the intent to override the AfD procedures. It is important to note that there was no "editing" involved, only "white blanking" whole sections of the article along with their external references. Once more, the table section that was deleted was not debated in these pages. Much of the debate centered on the references in the body of the text, not the table. If you have issues with the table, then I suggest that we end the deletion debate and move back to editing, or that you debate the contents of the table in this discussion, and keep pushing for deletion. However, if you want the article deleted, then you are going to have to either wait for a consensus, or wait for an administrator to weigh in, as specified in the discussion guidelines. You can not take the law into your own hands and start deleting the article at your own discretion while a debate is ongoing. This is not my opinion, this is simply following the guidelines of a discussion. I am going to restore the article so that it can be debated properly without censoring the very text that we are supposed to be debating. Davidhc 20:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- It is common practice during AfD discussions to edit the article. In most cases, these edits serve to improve the article and often help the case of those seeking to keep. It seems that your declaration that by editing the article, I was somehow "changing my position from delete to keep" was an attempt to use this AfD discussion to make a WP:POINT. Instead, I was making an edit based on the fact that I saw basically nobody, regardless of their history with the article or opinion on whether it should be kept or deleted, defending the inclusion of the table that I deleted. I also want to note that this is not a discussion over whether to delete certain bits of text in the article, but rather whether to delete the whole thing. If this discussion is closed as keep or no consensus, that would not be an endorsement of everything within the page. This case is a content dispute. Your leveling accusations of "vandalism" (in edit summaries at the page), "blanking", and "censorship" do not add to the discourse here. Your assumptions of bad faith do not aid the goal of reaching a consensus about what is best for Wikipedia. Croctotheface 21:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Just to share with the community, Croctotheface saw it fit to leave the following warning on my talk page (I have since removed it):
3RR
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Friedman (unit). If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. Croctotheface 23:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
(Special multiple AFD) - Individual duplicate episode summaries for season 1 of TV show 8 Simple Rules
Someone has made individual articles for each episode of season 1 for the television show 8 Simple Rules. However, the information contained in each is a duplicate of information already found at List of 8 Simple Rules episodes. For example, the same information at Wall of Shame (8 Simple Rules episode) is also inside the aforementioned list (see the listing for the second episode). I am proposing that all of the individual articles are deleted because the information is already neatly found on the list of episodes. I will handle the individual AFDs (or prods ?) for all if a "delete" consensus is reached. -- Guroadrunner 15:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- (Your comment here on 8 Simple Rules)
- Um, why not just redirect the duplicate articles back to the list? Otto4711 18:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. I don't have time to look at this properly, but a delete/redirect strategy seems okay. YechielMan 18:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Redirects seem like a good idea. Realkyhick 02:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Project complete - I have gone ahead and redirected all of the season 1 articles to their main home. The season 2 and 3 articles need to stay for the time being because their plot summaries, etc. have not been put in the list, so that would lead to loss of information, whereas removing the season 1 articles is removing duplicate information. Guroadrunner 10:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Update - it appears that another editor has gone ahead and formatted the list for the season 2 and 3 episodes, and that those articles have been deleted as well. I say close this AFD as the project is complete. Guroadrunner 08:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete as your every day MySpace musician— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 08:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Chris Rhoads
In my opinion, doesn't assert sufficient notability. Lack of references and sources, as well. Daniel Bryant 07:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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KeepI saw him perform with Wynton Marsalis and Dave Samuels both grammy winners. So i think there is sufficient notability. just lackings in references and sources in my oppinion 74.195.240.49 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Ah, but there's the rub, no? An article that is "just" lack in references and sources is a significant issue when there's no evidence that such references and sources (acceptable per WP:ATT) exist and can be retrieved. Mwelch 20:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete since this topic is not sufficiently well-known. Mr. Berry 07:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep As the author I see it as valuable information for those seeking it. The topic is quite well-known to those in the industry. Chazlewkowski 17:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Would you provide reasons for keeping the article that comply with Wikipedia policy? While everyone can understand that you subjectively feel the article is a keeper because you wrote it, we need objective discussion as to why the article's subject is notable as well as any factual statements being attributable. Thanks, Scienter 13:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mailer Diablo 11:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete: This guy fails WP:MUSIC with flying colors; he doesn't remotely come close to fulfilling any of the criteria. He's just a session musician, of which there are tens of thousands. NB - all the Keep votes above, so far, are single-purpose accounts. Ravenswing 13:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete The author asserts some notability, but there is no source in the article to back this claim up, nor have links been added in nearly a week since this AfD went up. Doesn't seem currently t pass WP:MUSIC StuartDouglas 14:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. No evidence of notability per WP:MUSIC. Mwelch 20:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Not notable, too many Myspace sources. Realkyhick 22:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment:: well I already did my :*STRONG KEEP: However as the author it appears that the general vibe is to have this article deleted. No hard feelings here, I understand why it would be questionable. I personally feel as if it is notable enough to be kept. This is based on his reputation, many endorsers and list of artists he has recorded or performed with. However I fully understand how those who arnt familiar would vote for Delete based on the quality of the article that I made. Best of luck, hopefully the article stays but if not perhaps someone else will create a better one in the future. Chazlewkowski 04:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable, the only reference is a list of artists that use said hardware. -- Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント ( talk) 04:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: one of which being Chris Rhoads Chazlewkowski 08:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- This deleted article is now at Michael O'Byrne (Irish biologist). Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 20:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Majorly (o rly?) 14:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Plot of Naruto: Shippūden
- Plot of Naruto: Shippūden ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD)
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This article is a grotesque violation of the subject's copyright. It is a 32 kb+ step-by-step summary of a film series, and I do not know how to even begin to reduce this to something reasonable. I think the best thing to do is wipe it and start over.
WP:FICT does not like this article. Nor do
WP:WAF or
WP:NOT.
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
06:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Two things: this isn't a film, this is describing half the storyline of the series
Naruto; and since when were plot summaries a copyright violation? (I could understand if it were word-for-word transcripts of every episode and/or chapter, but even with this article's size, it certainly is not.)
NeoChaosX (
talk,
walk)
08:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Extensive plot summaries without contect provided by external sources are a violation. See:
WP:FICT and
WP:WAF --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
09:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not certain why you thought this was a summary of a film series, but if it were, it is understandable how you would consider this article overwrought. However the source material itself is extensive and serialized over several months and this article does not provide a
- Comment - Extensive plot summaries without contect provided by external sources are a violation. See:
WP:FICT and
WP:WAF --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
09:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
substitute for reading the manga. DaoKaioshin 14:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Also note that it survived a previous AfD over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Plot of Naruto I, back when the article was titled Plot of Naruto II. NeoChaosX ( talk, walk) 09:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep it's used to keep "Plot of Naruto" at a reasonable size, and the content is definitely encyclopedic in terms of the show. It could use trimming.
JuJube
09:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Please explain your use of the word "encyclopedic" in that sentence. This just looks like a depressingly meticulous moment-by-moment plot summary with little context. That's not encyclopedic; it's a fan page. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 09:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Chris is right; this is a clear violation of Wikipedia policies and fair use criteria. No article should consist solely of plot summary, that much is clear from
WP:FICT,
WP:WAF, and
WP:NOT. —
Brian (
talk)
09:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment "Wait a minute. There are lots of articles like this on Wikipedia. Episode summaries, book summaries, even movie summaries. How is this article different from them?" Master Endar 08:07, 26 March 2007 (Centeral)
- Comment - It might help if you consider this the first of a series of such AFD discussions. Please provide examples of similar articles so I know what to tag next. Thanks in advance. Also, please fix your signature. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment "Wait a minute. There are lots of articles like this on Wikipedia. Episode summaries, book summaries, even movie summaries. How is this article different from them?" Master Endar 08:07, 26 March 2007 (Centeral)
- Keep, but trim and provide with sources (which are definitely out there). There's no disputing the notability of the Naruto series. None whatsoever. This article is a page split from
Plot of Naruto for the purpose of size, and
Plot of Naruto was originally created to keep the main
Naruto page size reasonable. So it fits notability criteria, but needs sourcing. I had it tagged at one point, but it seems that the tag had been removed. Cheers,
Lankybugger ○
speak ○
see ○
13:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- No one is disputing the the series' notability. What's being disputed is the extensive nature of these summaries without trying to put it into any sort of reasonable real-world context or cite external sources.-- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, I don't see why this was nominated. Maybe its length demands a cleanup tag, but this summary is in line with countless examples that are presumably considered valid applications of fair use according to wikipolicy.
DaoKaioshin
14:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - If you are going to make a claim like that, please include some examples of similar articles that have been said to meet policy with regard to fair use. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: This came up last year with regard to one of the other Naruto plot articles -- see
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Plot_of_Naruto_I. Personally, I'm conflicted. (1) We don't normally delete articles that could be cleaned up; (2) I'm torn about just how much plot summary is appropriate for serial works. According to the notes, this article currently covers approximately one hundred serial chapters of the work -- how much plot summary is appropriate for 100 issues of the manga? (3) Ultimately, if the article had more out-of-universe info, I would probably be ok with about this level of plot summary, maybe a little less. Given that it doesn't, I'm torn about whether to delete the article to encourage editors to do a better job next time or to leave it in the hope that the editors eventually clean it up.
TheronJ
14:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- TheronJ, I know you have worked on WikiProject Comics articles before, so I ask you to think about how many of those articles are merely plot summaries that cover 100 issues of a series in such detail.
52 (comic book) will cover 52 issues when it is finished, but the summary is maintained s at about ten paragraphs, and it has a lot of external sources that discuss the real-world details surrounding the series. --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
14:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, Chris. There's no question, IMHO, that the comics project has led the way on this problem, and articles like Ultimate Spider-Man (story arcs) and Ultimate X-Men (story arcs) are much, much better that the Naruto plot articles - both because they make a concerted effort to include helpful, non-plot information and a concerted effort to keep the plot information limited. I'm mostly torn about whether deletion is appropriate for an article like this, which I agree (1) needs clean-up badly; (2) probably won't be cleaned up for years if ever; and (3) is very likely to constitute a copyright violation because of the depth of plot summary relative to non-plot information. I'll think about it and see if I can come off the fence. TheronJ 14:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- TheronJ, I know you have worked on WikiProject Comics articles before, so I ask you to think about how many of those articles are merely plot summaries that cover 100 issues of a series in such detail.
52 (comic book) will cover 52 issues when it is finished, but the summary is maintained s at about ten paragraphs, and it has a lot of external sources that discuss the real-world details surrounding the series. --
Chris Griswold (
☎
☓)
14:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - Fan comments aside, I stand with my previous nom. of Plot of Naruto I. WP:NOT: "Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." -- Pentasyllabic 15:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - This is in no way a "grotesque violation of the subject's copyright" or a "clear violation of Wikipedia policies and fair use criteria." It fits perfectly with "a plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic." It takes a bit of plot summary to describe 400 magazines and 250 television episodes. It has to be broken down a bit, and that's what this is, see WP:SS. If you just glance at the page it looks like it's only covering a few episodes, but it's actually covering over 100 issues of the manga. I can see why someone thought it was too large when they thought it was a single film. You also may want to know this is the 43rd most viewed article on all of wikipedia. It's going to get a little bloated when 16,000 people are reading it every day. Naruto related articles account for 8 of our top 100 pages, with about 100,000 page views a day, so they tend to get big. People aren't saying delete because of notability, but just in case someone's thinking it, Naruto gets 32,000,000 google hits. - Peregrine Fisher 16:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - This is a plot of of a "larger topic", the franchise is large and thus there's a lot to cover, As Wikipedia is not paper and I believe this fits in with our goals to create an encyclopaedia. I'd recommend somebody add some sources, however. Matthew 16:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - After all, various other pages on Wikipedia consist of ONLY plot summaries and spoilers. Also, we are informing people of the plot of Naruto, just in a seperate page because if combined, the article is very long. Hence, fitting in with the enclyclopedia definition. -- Omghgomg 06:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - The out of universe details are at Naruto, although I don't know if that matters here. Can anyone comment on wikibooks? It's mentioned in WP:FICT, although from reading about it, I can't really tell if it is an acceptable location for plot summaries. (Jez, I need to stop thinking about this and just hit save, I've run up against the last two comments. and an edit! =P ) -- Celain 16:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep-Important page Illyria05 ( Talk • Contributions) 16:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - While I agree that this page is way too large and goes into way too much detail, it can be cleaned up with a whole lot of work. The only real area that has considerable bloat is the area covering the Hidan and Kazuku arc. That arc just ended a couple of weeks back, so we can now take a knife to the section with the advantage of knowing exactly what was important to the storyline. However, I'm not really sure how we can source this besides citing the entire manga? -- GhostStalker( Got a present for ya!) 16:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Delete as it consist of nothing but a plot summary (see WP:FICT). -- Whpq 17:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. I guess the reason we are complaining is not so much of the plot-for-plot deletion, but it seems that Stargate (both Atlantis and SG-1) and Startrek gets to keep every single episode plot summary, while an anime that is notable even in America cannot (and I am not even going with other anime series that is not licensed yet) George Leung 22:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Naruto also has an article for each episode: see List of Naruto episodes/ List of Naruto: Shippūden episodes. There is also List of Naruto story arcs for shorter synopses. -- Pentasyllabic 22:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Of the nerd topics, I find that Star Trek is done reasonably well - far better handled than Star Wars or Transformers, but that's not difficult - as long as there is a proportional amount of out-of-universe details, the article is fine. If you can suggest problematic articles, I would be happy to look at them. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 01:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I see no reason to delete this article and start over, but if you do, perhaps you should try the talk page. Deleting the content merely to recreate it though, wouldn't make for less trouble, but more. FrozenPurpleCube 23:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I believe this has been duscussed before and I don't see a reason to remove it. Simply leave it as it is and continue expanding it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.66.22.232 ( talk) 00:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
- Keep Why bother deleting it? What is the point in deleting an article just because you have no interest in it? It's highly informative for people who are unable to get the mangas, and is therefore serving it's purpose as an encyclopedic article.
- Weak delete No one wants to trim it down, so a wipe should do the trick. The problem is that people seem to think every chapter has to be analyzed in total detail here, but there are other places to get that kind of extensive information. The above-noted Wikipolicies are rather clear that this article needs to be remedied, and has been for half a year now. Treima 01:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - if it is possible to fix an article, it should not be deleted. This article is clearly fixable. - Peregrine Fisher 01:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - And yet it hasn't been since the last debate. -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 02:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- There's no deadline on wikipedia that I'm aware of. - Peregrine Fisher 02:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, as it is an aspect of the larger subject of Naruto as a whole and thus not subject to exclusion by WP:NOT#IINFO 7 alone. Plot summary was deemed important to the subject, and forked from the main article, then from the Part I article in a natural Wiki process to keep pages readable and concise. That said, it could certainly use some improvement. It shouldn't be written from such a percise perspective, but rather a general one, focusing on what's important. More importantly, it needs to be well referenced to the source material so people researching the subject can trace their path back to the particular episode or chapter they're interested in. – Gunslinger47 03:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Neutral. Contributors to this article fail dearly to make any effort at trimming it down once in a while, but it is much easier to manage than what is at the moment 225 potentially more detailed synopsizes of the same crap. I won't pretend that plot summaries such as this are necessary on Wikipedia, but for Wikipedia to frown on this while seemingly turning a blind eye to larger scale examples is some kind of discrimination. You can give me some line about how single episode summaries have some greater importance than an article with multiple episode summaries crammed together, but the only real difference is that one has cultural references/trivia, and the other doesn't. Also, something of a similar nature that I'd be interested to see if it's anymore acceptable: Category:Dragon Ball sagas. ~ Snapper T o 03:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Neutral Detailed plot summaries are unfortunately the least of Wikipedia's legal worries so I hope this AfD will be a wake-up call to all contributors to pay attention to the {{ plot}} tag. UnfriendlyFire 03:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Split. I and several other users are working on breaking the Plot of Naruto I & II articles into summaries by arc. You Can't See Me! 04:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I don't see any good reason in deleting this, it's good for those that can't get online manga. It could be improved,yes, but DELETED? That's REALLY not needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shonen Jump Master ( talk • contribs) 12:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
- Keep- As has been previously stated, this article provides a valuable source for those who can't read japanese, and can't wait several months for a single chapter to be subbed. As well, there can be difficulties finding said chapters, let alone actually accessing them. The article could, in theory be shortened, but it would, and should be a group effort.-- Megaman3 12:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep- I'm not sure, and this may be my bad memory kicking in, but I also believe this was discussed before and a Keep consensus was made. Also, this is a useful source for people who truly would like to find the information, as with anything else on Wikipedia. As such, why delete something that a good number of people find useful? There's no point, in my opinion.
Steelesaber
20:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment, regarding the last three Keep votes: Your reasons for keeping the article are actually reasons to delete as per current policy. No article can serve as substitute for reading the source material. There are good reasons to keep, but this isn't one of them. – Gunslinger47 20:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- And an AfD discussion is not a vote either. FrozenPurpleCube 02:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I agree that this article needs trimming down once more (I may do it myself when I find the time), but I see no reason that this article should be removed considering the many, many other plot synopsises for TV series/movies/books/etc. that exist on Wikipedia, nor do I see any copyright violations. It is not step by step as it omits many details, but it does act as a guide on how the story has progressed. Also keep in mind that adding this article to the main Naruto plot article would easily double or even triple it's size. Djseifer 23:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I think each arc should be given a separate page.
Ghos7king
24:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - That might be a bit much, I think. I'll try and go over the article tonight and see if I can excise any unneeded info. Djseifer 00:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Without this article, Plot of Naruto would be way too long. And the article can be split or trimmed or something. There isn't really a reason to delete it. Raven23 02:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. This is a plot summary written by watching the series and deriving conclusions from it, and it doesn't attribute any of the claims. The only useful thing that this could do (other than amuse Naruto fans, which isn't really a goal of this project) is summarize each episode and attribute fictional events on an episode-by-episode basis, and it doesn't even do that. -
A Man In Bl♟ck (
conspire |
past ops)
03:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes it sound like it should be fixed instead of deleted. -
Peregrine Fisher
04:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- This could be a proper encyclopedia article. If the plot summary were reduced by 80%, the article were renamed Naruto: Shippūden, and the article talked at least as much - if not more - about the conception, creation, and critical and popular response to Shippuden in both Japanese- and English-speaking territories, this could work. It'd be a good companion piece to the main Naruto article, and Shippuden is a fairly significant departure in both mood and style, so it wouldn't be out of place to treat it as though it were a separate series.
- I don't think 32K of plot summary (if you can even call it summary) would be a good start on that, nor would it be a useful subpage for that. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 04:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes it sound like it should be fixed instead of deleted. -
Peregrine Fisher
04:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment So what, are you just all for deleting the article because you don't watch Naruto? I've said it once, and I'll say it again: it is serving it's purpose as an encyclopedic article by providing information. In fact, the article is even titled "Plot of Naruto: Shippuden". Not "Summary of Plot of Naruto: Shippuden." The only "reason" I see for it's deletion is that some people are against Naruto, and just want to mess with Naruto's fans. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
72.215.11.249 (
talk)
05:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
- Fanpages provide information. Road signs provide information. Encyclopedias provide introduction and summary, things that this page fails to do.
- If you would like to be provided with the plot of Shippuden, you're in luck! JUMP Comics or VIZ Media (depending on where you live and what language you can read) would like to sell you some comics. Here, we need to be summarizing it (emphasis on the summary) so that we can discuss Shippuden as an artefact of the real world. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 05:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and split. This article, while indeed in need of serious editing, is still necessary, as Plot of Naruto would become even more enormous. Furthermore, I cannot see why pages that can be clearly fixed are being slated for deletion. I support this initiative by Snapper in any case. Sephiroth BCR 05:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Naruto is a long series, thus wouldn't it make sense, for the sake of a complete summary, that the summary itself would be long as well? Splitting it according to the arcs is one thing, but this article definetly shouldn't be deleted (somebody already tried, unsuccesfully). Viewtiful Rekk 12:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. The page is obviously long and detailed enough to provide an alternative to reading/viewing the source material, and thus constitutes copyright violation. The Hidan and Kakazu section is particularly egregious in this. It's also a completely pointless page, as if it were shortened to a decent level (as has been done with longer series) then it would fit in a main Naruto: Shippūden article. That's the sort of article we need, not something that goes against numerous Wikipedia policies like this one. Stylish Alastor the Stylish 19:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and reduce. While it's true that articles should not just be plot summaries, the existence of one adds to the meaning of the subject matter. Therefore, this article should not be thought of it's own article but part of the Naruto article. In response to claims that the article is too long, I fully agree, though, with the second-to-most-recent arc concluded, it is now possible to clean up that area, which is by far the largest.-- Frenchman113 on wheels! 19:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. i have found this a useful tool to write my fan comic about naruto,to keep up with it so i dont make huge mistakes,it also provides us who dont have access to the original form of the manga to keep up with the story since the dub and the us manga are very slow —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blaze of merc ( talk • contribs) 22:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
- Keep and split into seperate arcs I agree it is too large and is in desperate need of splitting into sperate articles maybe an article for each arc? But I've seen plenty of other articles with plot summeries and some with every minute details (please see The Hills Have Eyes (2006 film) article for example) so if this article is deleted I will assume you will go after the other articles also? Sam ov the blue sand 01:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Yeah splitting between the arcs would also be good (much easer to navigate) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blaze of merc ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
- CommentThere IS too much content in this article, if there is only 300 espisodes now, what will this page look like when there is 400 or 500? Obviously, the article needs a trim, but there seems to be no one who is willing to do it, probably because of its size. Why don't we create a particular board of users who trim the article monthly? I think that splitting the article will create too much of a fuss, some arcs are just not long enough, its not worth an entire page.
Zachary
crimsonwol
f
13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Not every single arc would need its own article. The Prelude and the Exposition, for instance, can stay in the article due to their brevity. Everything else has sufficient content to have its own seperate article. Sephiroth BCR 17:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - People are complaining about the level of detail, but let's compare it to some other page on wikipedia. First, there's about 2 issues of the manga for every 1 episode. This page is covering 100 issues of the manga, so that's about 50 episodes. This page has about 11,000 words, so that's 220 words per episode. Now a Featured Article episode from House,
Pilot (House), has about 600 words in its plot summary. Those episodes are twice as long, so it has about 300 words per 22 minutes, which is 136% more than this page. That's a Featured Article, so people who know what they're doing have cut that synopsis down the best it can be done. If you compare it to some
Stargate or
Heroes episodes, it's even smaller per minute. The more I think about it, this isn't even too detailed, it's just that being on all on one page makes people think it should be deleted. -
Peregrine Fisher
18:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's the excessive level of detail coupled with the complete lack of possibility for sourced, encyclopedic content that's the problem. Plus, those lists are equally problematic, for much the same reasons. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 19:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's less detailed than the House episode featured article. I'd like to see a consensus on how long plot summaries should be. Until then, using featured articles seems like a good way to judge. Personally, when I write anime episode summaries, I make them about 150 words. See Star of Desire for an example. I think 220 words is pretty good considering the 16000 page views this aticle gets every day. - Peregrine Fisher 21:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Keep/Spilt i think this article may be two long and much controversy because of its usefulness to many users but i think recoomending it for deletion is a rash descision... A wikiproject may be in order to help fix this article. Spilting in to seprate parts can help as well. On another hand i think a good idea would be to trim the Sections to less detail after the episode pertaining to that section is released which can greatly shorten the article over time. Reccomding this for deletion isnt something to take lightly because its two long copyright violation doesnt seem like a pertaining issue as it just records without posting content. if you posted the manga here i assume it would be a different story Matthew2c4u 20:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I belive that though the article does need trimming, it should not be deledted. It should interefere with deletion policy. It is just too big —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.170.103.177 ( talk • contribs).
- keepWho told you to speak about others' copyrights? If the copyright holder doesn't care, why should you?-- 141.213.198.142 00:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- comment Peregrine Fisher, I think talking about something completely different from the suject is something that should be avoided. Please remember this is a manga/anime with more than 200 chapters not a televesion show with less than 50 episodes so please tell me how are we to shorten the article without splitting into various articles? I also believe that the article was put up for deletion because because the nominator thought this was a film so there is no need for this being here. Sam ov the blue sand, X please passover. 01:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- comment I believe that people who doesn't enjoy this anime or just hate it for some reason should not have a say on this, as it may only be to get this summary deleted, I also think that if it's too large of a summary then we could devide it into arcs. deviding this aummary into arcs might take a lot of work but I know it's possible and even if i'm not good at this i would gladly help devide it.
Ghos7king
02:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Okay, enough with the hate accusations. I enjoy the series, but this article seriously needs to go (or at the very least, get split). Put things into perspective. It's not that I don't like the series; quite the contrary. This is the only anime I watch on a regular basis nowadays. However, this is not a Naruto fansite: This is an encyclopedia, and thus its articles have to be of encyclopedic value and must fit a certain standard. Per WP:NOT, articles that are strictly plot summaries are in fact not encyclopedic, and the article on its own is not near Wikipedia's quality standards in terms of its tone and excessive details. This could be fixed, but not without breaking the article into smaller parts. So, I maintain the split decision that I had above, but I am not opposed to an outright deletion. You Can't See Me! 03:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, but clean up. This article is a great source of information for those who don't have the actual manga handy, but want to research it. However, the degree to which it covers the plot is a bit excessive, and I feel that it should be reduced to a basic summary of the plot's outline, leaving only the more important events of the series, rather than an in-depth explanation of every little thing that happens. Is it absolutely necessary to know that Konohamaru started fooling around with the Shadow Clone Jutsu after he learned it? No, not really. It does reveal more about the characters, but that's why many characters have their own articles. CrazedNinja 05:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Though I do admit, this file is massive and would definitely hinder those with slower browsers and computers. However, I see no reason to remove it completely. If it does get too much, how about separating the article into the plot synopsis section of each character, like the
Bleach page, or, for example,
this page. That way, we can all see plot details attributed to each main character and keep the file size reasonable at the same time.
Stuntman15
17:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - I agree. Kind of Like what the Other person had said. Trim it into other articles. But based on arc, Unless the arc is short, in which case group those ones with the longer ones. Look, plain and simple: I haven't gotten the subbed comic yet, I can't find it either, I like this to be used as a source until the chapter it describes Releases. That way, I know what is going on. Besides, Seriously, Like was also stated quite simply put: If you look at the length of everything that has happened in both the manga and anime of it, you'll see that this plot is actually VERY SHORTENED from what it could be. It needs to be trimmed into smaller arcticles. I tried to do so a few minutes ago, but Wikipedia wouldn't let me. Forgive me if that was wrong of me, I'm fairly new to Wikipedia and don't know all the rules in the back of my head. Chipmonk328 9:17 PM, 30 March 2007
- Comment - I also agree. This articles would be better off being separated into different articles. It is what they did for One Piece, so we should do the same. (undersigned)
- Delete.- This article is clearly driven by Naruto-fans and is serving no purpose to Wikipedia other than being a place for thea above people who cannot get their hands on the manga to keep up with the series. Hence, infringing copyright laws by providing a substitute to the actual manga. Wikipedia is not a hub for fans :) 216.99.60.104 23:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - The article is valid information just shouldn't be all that large, some people went overly enthusiastic on the article. It just needs some rewriteing. Lord Metroid 14:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per
WP:NOT--
Greatestrowerever
20:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- "A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic". You'll need to elaborate. – Gunslinger47 20:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Weak keep because though I can see the inherent NOT-ness of it, a reasonable and non-half-assed trimming could clean it up nicely. — Someguy0830 ( T | C) 23:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- commentActually I don't think any1 uses this because they can't get the manga or watch the anime mostly because you can just go to youtube.com and read the manga or watch the anime. Ghos7king 23:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- commentWell in that case why does wikipedia exist when I can go to youtube? ^_^
Sam ov the blue sand,
X please passover.
23:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Naruto plot would be way too long, and the information there is too valuable to just delete. Xepeyon 15:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Just a quick question: as this isn't a majority vote, will there be a deadline for a consensus on this issue or will it be one of those 'go on 'til the end of time' discussions? Stuntman15 17:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Someone will come along eventually, I believe. - Peregrine Fisher 18:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - I find this funny, since it seems i can search wikipedia for several other shows which make a fortune on DVD Sales and the such, and yet their plot summaries are "Organized" yet give away about 500% the amount of details that this plot summary does, even with shows containing less content. I think half the people on this conversation are biased, hypocritical and should quit trying to rain on others parades just to agitate the situation, like the one who started this deletion suggestion- who everyone knows this person is. Guest 21:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - The preceding comment was left by 69.151.254.63 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). UnfriendlyFire 02:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus to delete. This was a tough one to close. A significant portion of the "keep" comments made did not cite policy, and seemed to border on WP:ILIKEIT. However, even discounting these, I couldn't find consensus to delete; WP:NEO is a guideline, and I don't feel comfortable asserting WP:IAR to apply it to this article when I couldn't find consensus to delete in the first place. This close places no prejudice against renominations of the article, and I strongly caution User:Davidhc to remain civil, constructive, and non-argumentative in future AfD debates. Badgering editors with views different than your own with incivil commentary is not acceptable. — bbatsell ¿? ✍ 03:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Friedman (unit)
Not notable, neologism, full of OR, does not cite sources other than blogs, all relevant content about the term is at Atrios already. Croctotheface 07:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:NEO, WP:V and WP:NOR. This is an absurd example of OR. Not one of the cited references in the sprawling "examples" section actually uses the term "friedman unit". Blogs and their ilk are not generally reliable sources; certainly not to establish currency of a neologism. This article belongs in Disinfopedia or dKosopedia, if anywhere. By the way, this article and its impending deletion has been commented on by Atrios [20]; expect some puppetry. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 12:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the next six months really are going to determine whether this neologism catches on...Meanwhile we can transwiki the term and redirect to Atrios.-- Tikiwont 13:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per Kaustuv. The article itself seems to give two different definitions for a Friedman unit, so it may not even be eligible for transwiki-ing. Redirect to Atrios after deletion. The "examples" section is nothing short of WP:SYN. Risker 14:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do Not Delete - a first summary This article should not be deleted. Many of the points below have been drawn from the previous debate on whether or not to Merge the article. The result of that debate was for the article not to be merged.
- Reliable sources: Apart from the secondary debate over whether millions of people reading hundreds of blogs that repeatedly use the term Friedman Unit count as a reliable source, the term has appeared in print media as referenced in the article. If you have problems with the print media that the term has appeared in, then please do not just say "that doesn't count" or "that's not a reliable source." You will need to explain why those specific publications are not reliable in the context of the wikipedia guidelines.
- Neologism: The neologism rule is in place to keep people from using Wikipedia to coin a term. In the case of the Friedman Unit, the term is already widely used without the help of this article. While the google test does not assure notability of a term, the many and varied hit results for the Friedman Unit show that it is widely used by millions of people. If you no not think that millions of blog readers do not count as the wide use of a term, then please explain why they do not count.
- Wikipedia is not a print medium: It is a founding principle of Wikipedia that is has space for entries that would not otherwise make it into a print encyclopedia. Because if this rule, it is important to remember that if an article is in doubt, it is better to err on the side of caution and keep the article rather than delete it. If you think that Wikipedia does not have space for this article, then please explain with evidence.
- I don't like it: While the "I like it" argument is not a good reason for keeping an article, it is also equally important to remember that "I don't like it" is not a good reason for deleting it. Editors on both sides need to ask themselves this question before they make their arguments so that they do not do a disservice to the Wikipedia community by letting their subjective opinions overshadow their reason.
- For these and many other reasons that I am sure other people will list, this article should be kept.
Davidhc
18:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Excuse me, millions of people use this term? Please provide a reliable source for this. Several political bloggers have used it, although notably the person for whom it is named does not. I can't see any comments above that use the "I don't like it" argument. As to the WP:NEO argument, given that search results for just about any term in Wikipedia will show Wikipedia in the top 5 results, the fact of an article here pretty well guarantees that Wikipedia has an effect on the popularity of a term (which one could term the "observation affects the outcome of an experiment" argument). There have been other recent examples where news sources and blogs have taken their information about current events right from the Wikipedia articles in development at that time. The term was coined by Atrios and deserves a place in the article about him. There is no consistent definition or usage of the term at this point. Until that stabilizes, the article should be deleted with a redirect to Atrios. The examples have to go regardless of whether or not the article is deleted. Risker 18:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- a) What print source are you talking about? The only source I saw brought up on the discussion page was a Huffington Post article that spent a total of three sentences discussing the term. I heard tell of a single mention in Editor and Publisher that is inaccessible to most readers, including myself.
- b) From WP:NEO, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." So far, we just have three sentences from HuffPo. Blogs, like it are not, are not considered reliable sources on WP.
- c) I think you're misstating WP:PAPER. Nobody is arguing that we should delete this article because it would not show up in Britannica, or anything to that effect. WP:PAPER does not justify the inclusion of articles that are poorly sourced or cover topics that are not significant enough. Those are the points of contention here, not whether this article would be included in a paper encyclopedia.
- d) I don't see anyone using the "I don't like it" argument here, and I don't expect anyone will, so I'm not sure what you're saying. If you want my subjective opinion on the term, I'm a fan of Atrios and think the term is funny and illustrative. However, objectively, it does not come close to meeting the requirements necessary to have an independent article on Wikipedia. Croctotheface 18:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- "hundreds of blogs that repeatedly use the term" is the form of argument that is required at Wiktionary, because it is an argument about whether a word is in use. It is irrelevant to Wikipedia, because it doesn't demonstrate the existences of reliable sources that document a subject. Counting Google hits is not research. To demonstrate that reliable sources exist, you have to cite sources that document (not use — document) this purported unit. You have to show, with cited sources, that this unit has been researched and documented outside of Wikipedia, in accordance with our Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research policies. Excluding the sources that cite this Wikipedia article itself as their source, and the unreliable sources such as pseudonymous postings on discussion fora, there is not a single source in this article that documents this purported unit. There's only one source that even documents the fact that one person has made the same prediction repeatedly, something that is incorrectly presented when presented in an article on a unit of measurement that has not actually been documented anywhere. Uncle G 18:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep; the article is full of citations, and not all of them are blogs; apparently, this term has indeed gained some currency in the print media. I can't see any policy this violates.
Crotalus horridus (
TALK •
CONTRIBS)
18:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- What does "gained some currency" mean? I mean, the article itself says something to that effect, but it seems to be incorrect. If anything, the section that lists publications that have used the term is misleading, as it cites blogs (say, from the Washington Monthly) but gives the impression that the term has appeared in print edition of the magazine. Croctotheface 18:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- It violates the Wikipedia:No original research policy, given that it takes roughly thirty quotations from different people talking about things that may happen months into the future and synthesizes from them the novel conclusion that there is a unit of measurement. Uncle G 18:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete: if this term really is "widely-used in print media," where are the
reliable sources demonstrating such? None of the sources cited mention the "friedman" at all.
Krimpet (
talk/
review)
20:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- See fourth paragraph. Bill Oaf 03:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Editors and Publishers Just to give one example of a secondary source: Along with the listing on the main page for the Friedman Unit, there is in individual entry in discussion page on the use of the term in an article in the print edition of Editors and Publishers. This article, you can read an excerpt included in the discussion, acknowledges that the term is widely used and is accurate in its description. This is all that is needed to verify the term Friedman Unit and keep this entry. The whole point of a secondary source is to find a reliable source (in this case a print article that was written by professional journalists and approved by professional editors) that documents the use of the term. The purpose of a secondary source is to provide documentation of existence, not act as proof of existence in itself. If you have any proof that the Editors and Publishers is not a professional print media, or that the article is a hoax, then please I would like to see it. Also, please read the article and the article's comments page before you post here and vaguely claim that reliable sources do not exist, because both the article and the discussion reliable secondary sources clearly. Davidhc 22:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. I have done several WP:HEY efforts on behalf of neologisms, and some of those resulted in a keep or no consensus result; obviously, I'm liberally inclusionist. In this case I looked around and saw little that could be done, as much as WP:ILIKEIT. I pushed and prodded in the merge discussion for reliable sources and the elimination of original research, and there was some improvement -- but ultimately there are only marginally reliable sources even using the term at all, such as The Huffington Post. Now, I could defend a list of citations of "in the next N months" predictions if and only if they were accompanied by a citation of a reliable source calling that prediction a "Friedman" (and I personally would accept Atrios for these, as this is a subarticle on his term, as long as notability had been established otherwise). I am pretty sure that a very brief such list could be extracted for illustration purposes in the Atrios article. But he hasn't done that for all of the examples cited; the list seems to be merely finding as many "in the next N months" citations as possible, which only really illustrates what Atrios is originally complaining about, i.e. the prevalence of such predictions. So most of the list would have to go even if notability were established, because it's synthesis. All that said, I have urged that the authors of the article give it a more appropriate home such as Demopedia or Dkosopedia, where the predictions may be compiled under more hospitable inclusion policies. I would indeed like it if this term were a notable neologism, but as it stands, I don't think it passes muster. -- Dhartung | Talk 22:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep. There's no denying the term's indebtedness to Atrios; however, the phrase has currency beyond Eschaton (one of the twenty most influential publications in the U.S., in my opinion) & beyond the blogosphere in general--I've heard it in conversation. It's a succinct critique of U.S. policy in Iraq and, more pointedly, of the U.S. media's failure to question authority. Billbrock 23:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, there are plenty of references in the opening paragraphs that establish this term has expanded beyond Atrios' blog - even into "mainstream". The specific political motivation in using it aside, it does seem to have become widespread in certain significant circles. If the big list of examples in the later part of the article is too ORish or otherwise unweildy it can be trimmed or removed, but that's a content and cleanup issue rather than an AfD one. Bryan Derksen 01:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep. I came upon this article and found it to be useful; I have seen the term in a number of places and was pleased to see that Wikipedia had an article on the emerging meme. Along with others, I added some sources demonstrating its use in various mainstream publications. Bill Oaf 03:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per the supporting arguments previously mentioned. In response to the Editors and Publishers argument, I'd like to point out that the article merely mentions in passing that certain bloggers use the Friedman Unit. The term appears once in the entire text, while the article itself is devoted to a different subject. However, notablility requires the topic being the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works. This neologism has never been discussed in any level of detail by a reliable source, let alone being the subject of one. —
Kelw (
talk)
05:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for acknowledging that the term has been referenced in a reliable print media. Davidhc 15:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep. Dhartung claims to "like it," then goes on to ignore all the sound arguments for keeping it as Editors hashed out over the past month in the Talk page. (I just lurked on there as I assumed those who favored merger or deletion were just a bunch of trouble-makers whose suggestions would not be taken seriously.) Many who favor deletion ignore the clear acceptance of web sources in the OR guidelines. Dhartung asserts, with no basis in fact, that HuffingtonPost is a "marginally reliable source," when (as the Talk pages make clear) it is written by well-known and highly-regarded journalists -- repeated below. He dismissively makes passing reference to "even using the term at all, such as The Huffington Post" -- while failing to mention that the phrase "Friedman Unit" won HuffPo's award for "best new phrase of 2006! That's much more than "using the term at all"! And it casts doubt on Dhartung's objectivity and good faith in this discussion.
Here is just one of the many sound arguments on the FU talk page, all of which apparently need to be copied into here if critics are not willing to engage in good faith discussion:
- The original-research guidelines state: "citing book, print, or reliable web resources [sic] demonstrates that the material is verifiable and is not merely the editor's opinion." So web resources are explicitly allowed...
- Huffington Post is a reliable web resource. It is: (i) widely read (online outranking US News & World Report, The Economist, Foreign Affairs, Washington Times, over the past year). (ii) Its feature-story writers include some of the most notable names in American politics. Well-known journalists among its blog-writers alone [21] include [starting alphabetically with "A"]: Chris Ahearn (President of Reuters!!), Mary Ann Akers (columnist for DC insiders' magazine Roll Call), Charles Alexander (23 years writing for Time Magazine), Roger Alford (law professor at Pepperdine University), Graham Allison ( Harvard University professor, former Dean of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government for 12 years, former Assistant Secretary of Defense, author of six books in political science and policy), Jonathan Alter (senior editor and colunist at Newsweek), Eric Alterman (prolific writer and commentator), Tom Andrews (former US Congressman from Maine), George Archibald (over 20 years writing for the Washington Times), etc. -- those are a few examples just from the list of last-names beginning with "A"! Huffington Post is not just some random blog populated by anyone who can type. (iii) The lead author on the Huffington Post article [22] that declared Friedman Unit to be the "best new phrase of 2006," Rachel Sklar, is widely published in: The New York Times, The New York Post, The Village Voice, Glamour, New York Magazine, The Financial Times and numerous other publications, and is a frequent guest on MSNBC's Scarborough Country TV show. [23] In short, Huffington Post clearly fits the criteria for a "reliable web resource" which "demonstrates that the material is verifiable and is not merely the editor's opinion," as specified in the Wikipedia guideline on no original research. And HuffPost declared "Friedman Unit" to be the best new phrase of 2006.
Again, that's just one of many dozens of sound arguments for keeping this article, despite any doubts raised on first-glance. Eugene Banks 08:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Huffington Post may be a reliable source. However, the article that mentioned the term was about another subject and spent a total of three sentences on the term. As others have noted, that is not sufficient to establish that a neologism should have an article on Wikipedia. Croctotheface 11:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Also, just to clarify, everything that is "not original reserach" does not automaticlaly become notable. In order for a subject to have its own article, it must be notable. As such, your quote from WP:NOR deals with whether or not text can be included within an article, not whether a topic can have its own Wikipedia article. The standard at WP:N, as others have mentioned, is being "the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works". I don't see a single published work, let alone a "substantial' or "non-trivial" one, of which the Friedman unit is the subject. It was mentioned in a trivial way (3 sentences) in a Huffington Post article. It was not the subject of that article by a long shot. It was apparently mentioned in passing in an Editor and Publisher article. Again, it was not the subject of that article. Where's the notability here? Croctotheface 12:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
What's the best protocol, should all discussion on this be placed here (copied here -- as only a small portion of the anti-delete arguments have been so far), or left on the article's Talk page? I'm increasingly suspecting that the arguments for deletion are a disguised form of POV, most likely relating to the highly contentious Iraq war. E.g.:
- Do not delete. I spent only 5 minutes googling this term, and what do I find: an interview on CNN TV, by Howard Kurtz no less, in which Tom Friedman himself is asked about his repeated use of the "six month" time-frame. No mention of Atrios. It is such a common notion that Kurtz doesn't even feel the need to name his source. He doesn't use the exact two words "Friedman" and "Unit", but there is no question what he is referring to: "you [Tom Friedman] were chided recently for writing several times in different occasions 'the next six months are crucial in Iraq,' 'the next six months.'" This article never should have been flagged in the first place. Eugene Banks 09:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Generally, whenever someone uses an "it must be" type of construction, it's because he or she believes something but recognizes that the sources don't actually support it. In this case, you're arguing that "there is no question" over what Kurtz is referring to, but if there were, why doesn't he mention it? Why do you need to hang your hat on the rather dubious notion that this term is SO notable that nobody even needs to use it? We're dealing with a neologism that currently has its own article, not a question of whether Friedman was criticized in a notable way over his repeated use of "the next six months" in relation to Iraq. I would agree that in the latter case that it is completely legitimate to mention that Friedman has been criticized. That could go, say, here:
Thomas Friedman#Friedman Unit. However, the fact that a subject meets the threshold of verifiability required to be mentioned WITHIN articles is not the same as achieving notability through
multiple non-trivial mentions in reliable sourcesbeing "the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works" per WP:N. Without notability, the term can't have its own article. Croctotheface 11:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)- The main article on the Friedman Unit cites at least three print publications which cover the term in their articles. This meets the guideline of "multiple non-trivial published works." If you disagree, then please explain how these three publications do not meet the "non-trivial" standard. Davidhc 16:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Could you help me by pointing them out here? All the publications I see cited in the paragraph I assume you're talking about mentioned the "unit" in their blogs, except for E&P. Croctotheface 16:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Also note that the term must be the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. Even if The American Prospect or Washington Monthly mentioned the term in the print edition of their publications, and not merely their blogs, "mentioned in" or "used in" do not meet the standard of notability that I quoted. Croctotheface 16:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Let's see. An interview of Friedman. Lots of talk about "six months." No use of the term "Friedman unit." If I had seen that interview, would I have any reason to think that "six months" would equal "Friedman unit" or vice versa? If the term was not used in the interview, then the interview cannot in any way be used as an example of the term. Risker 12:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Generally, whenever someone uses an "it must be" type of construction, it's because he or she believes something but recognizes that the sources don't actually support it. In this case, you're arguing that "there is no question" over what Kurtz is referring to, but if there were, why doesn't he mention it? Why do you need to hang your hat on the rather dubious notion that this term is SO notable that nobody even needs to use it? We're dealing with a neologism that currently has its own article, not a question of whether Friedman was criticized in a notable way over his repeated use of "the next six months" in relation to Iraq. I would agree that in the latter case that it is completely legitimate to mention that Friedman has been criticized. That could go, say, here:
Thomas Friedman#Friedman Unit. However, the fact that a subject meets the threshold of verifiability required to be mentioned WITHIN articles is not the same as achieving notability through
Multiple non-trivial sources There seems to be a lot of confusion over examples that people bring up in discussion and the examples that are in the article. (If you have good examples of the use of the term, please add them to the article.) The sources currently cited in the article are:
- Editor & Publisher
- The American Prospect
- Think Progress (the official online publication of the Center for American Progress),
- Daily Kos
- Washington Monthly
- Huffington Post
If you want to delete this article, then you are going to have to prove why ALL of these sources do not meet the non-trivial guidelines (I would say most of them are way above the criteria for non-trivial). You can not just go on slamming the Huffington Post or examples that are not in the main article and then say there is no notability. Please stick to the text. Davidhc 16:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- We've discussed E&P and HuffPo at length already, so I won't repeat those arguments again. Daily Kos is a blog. The American Prospect citation is from TAPPED, the publication's blog. The Washington Monthly citation is from Kevin Drum's blog, which is published on the WM's website. In your last comment, you said that "three print publications...cover the term in their articles". In fact, this coverage is from blogs, which is not the same thing, per WP:Reliable sources. Besides that, these blogs just use the term, which is enough to satisfy inclusion in Wiktionary, but not here. You have yet to show that the "Friedman unit" is the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. Croctotheface 16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for acknowledging that the term Friedman Unit is covered in all of the sources listed above. Please also note, that as explained above in the discussion, the wikipedia guidelines do not exclude blogs. So please explain to me why this article is up for deletion?
Davidhc
17:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Per official Wikipedia policy WP:A, blogs are self-published and therefore cannot be reliable sources. I'm not sure which Wikipedia guideline you are referring to. — Kelw ( talk) 17:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Civility is valued here, first of all. Second, "covered in X sources" does not establish notability. As I've said more than once now, WP:N calls for a topic to be "the subject of at least one substantial or multiple non-trivial published works" for it to meet the threshold of notability required for it to have an article. I have not seen a single published work that the "Friedman unit" is the subject of. I've seen it used in a couple of blog posts, and maybe mentioned in passing here or there, but that's it. Regarding blogs, I suggest you reread WP:RS. Blogs written by experts whose blogs cover their area of expertise can occasionally be used as sources for content, subject to very specific restrictions, per WP:SPS. Kevin Drum's blog, for instance, may have a sufficient pedigree to source content, though even something like that could very likely lead to disputes. However, something can be sufficient to source content within articles and still fall well short of establishing notability required for a topic to have its own article. I'd recommend rereading all the policies and guidelines at issue here if you're still a bit unclear about the difference. Croctotheface 17:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do not delete, do not merge, do not blank. Croc, firstly, you seem to be engaging in the following style of argumentation: You make argument X. Opponents make arguments A, B, and C. You then conclude "We've already discussed X," trying to get the last word while ignoring the previous discussion. (And if X is rebutted, you then add argument Y.) WP:Reliable Sources concludes: "This page in a nutshell: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." This has been done, with Friedman unit, many times over. Additional sources keep being added -- I just added CNN (see above). The fact that E&P has an article with FU as a subject is really all a WP article needs as proof of reliable sourcing and non-original research. (Perhaps a definition of "subject" is in order? Wiktionary: "Subject: 1. In a clause: the word or word group [usually a noun phrase] that is dealt with.") You keep raising the bar on this article as to what a reliable source must be. (Now it seems you're saying it must be the only subject of an article? That's ridiculous. Or perhaps only appearing in a mass-circulation magazine? But E&P is far more notable and credible than e.g. Time Magazine. Each time you ignore new evidence and previous arguments I suspect you are surreptitiously engaging in POV.) The fact that HuffingtonPost is a highly credible online source (whose authors and editorial process are better than most print outlets) also stands alone as sufficient sourcing. (Perhaps we should examine the credibility of journalists and editorial process in other sources frequently used on Wikipedia; the Washington Times comes to mind immediately.) On a whim I just Googled and discovered that the FU concept has been picked up in French, as well, e.g. "Ca vaut les six mois de Friedman pour un dénouement en Irak." The fact that there are many sources for Friedman Unit (including the others cited elsewhere, Kevin Drum, CNN, Washington Monthly, etc.) casts doubt on your willingness to engage in reasonable discussion.
- Secondly, part of the confusion may be a philosophical difference. What is important is the
Platonic ideal of the concept, the abstraction. Ideas are more important than physical manifestations of things. So what is important about "
Friedman unit" is the concept (including the never-ending series of six-month projections about war that are forgotten as the period ends, and the widespread uses of this concept which needs to be demonstrated by examples). Thus, the fact that Kurtz on CNN did not use the 10 letters (a, d, e, f, i, m, n, r, t, and u) rearranged to spell "Friedman Unit" is truly not important. There is no doubt that Kurtz, interviewing Friedman about the latter's repeated use of a never-ending six-month horizon in regards to the Iraq war, is discussing this concept. Critics of this page may be more
Aristotelian in outlook, but there is room on Wikipedia for articles of both types, and measuring up to one approach or the other is not grounds for deletion, merging, or blanking. Being overly concerned with minutiae and detail about guidelines is not helpful for Wikipedians, especially when combined with a tone that is perceived as condescending, even if it is not being used as a cloak for POV.
Eugene Banks
18:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- To your second point: what is important, per
WP:NEO, is very much the "abstraction", in this case the neologism ("Friedman unit") in question, rather than the concept. To quote the guideline, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." (Emphasis in original.) So, yes, to your first point, sources that establish notability DO need to be ABOUT the topic of the article. That is, indeed,
the whole pointa major tenet of WP:N. Croctotheface 18:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC) - Also, I'm going to ask you to chilll out a little bit regarding the tone of some of your comments. I don't think it's really productive to accuse me of being a POV pusher or accusing me of moving the goalposts or anything of that nature. These type of comments, per WP:CIVIL, are generally not considered productive for discussion and establishing consensus. Croctotheface 18:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Editors and Publishers article is a reliable secondary source about the term, it is not an article that simply uses the term.
Davidhc
18:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- If the text I found through a Google search here is accurate, then this is an article about the concept of Friedman repeatedly saying "the next six months" that mentions the term in one sentence, but it's not an article about the term. Croctotheface 18:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for finding the full text of the article. This full article definitely confirms as a secondary source that the Friedman Unit is an accurate and correct term for describing the use of the phrase "The next six months" in the style of Thomas Friedman. As you can see, the article starts by presenting the term "the Friedman Unit" in the opening paragraph, explains how it applies to the use of the phrase "the next six months", and makes a special note that the word did not originate in the article itself. This is what a secondary source is supposed to do.
Davidhc
19:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but the article is about Friedman and his procilvity to talk about "the next six months", not the term. The article MENTIONS the term, but it is not ABOUT the term itself. Basically, the Wikipedia article covers the term in far more detail than any other source. This should simply not happen. One sentence in E&P, three sentences in HuffPo...that's just not enough for an encyclopedia article. I'm actually inclined to agree with you that "Freidman unit" is a meaningful phrase with descriptive power and so forth. However, that in itself does not merit a WP article. The term can be covered in Atrios and at Wiktionary to the same effect. Croctotheface 00:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- The E&P article is about the Friedman Unit, it talks about nothing but the Friedman Unit, in fact the article proves that the Friedman Unit was not a "one off" event because the main body of the article is on how Thomas Friedman continues to use the Friedman Unit. This article in combination with the other references given meet the criteria of "multiple non-trivial sources". Please see my next entry. Davidhc 21:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- To your second point: what is important, per
WP:NEO, is very much the "abstraction", in this case the neologism ("Friedman unit") in question, rather than the concept. To quote the guideline, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." (Emphasis in original.) So, yes, to your first point, sources that establish notability DO need to be ABOUT the topic of the article. That is, indeed,
This article is legitimate as determined by the wikipedia guidelines and so it shoudl be kept. The "multiple non-trivial sources" given in this article prove that this article is a legitimate entry in Wikipedia. Wikipedia guidelines do a good job of making sure that articles are not hoaxes or inventions of their editors or made for the pure purpose of pushing neologisms that are not already widespread (by that I mean a neologism that is an invention of the editor). The Friedman Unit is a fact that exists outside of the context of this article, as the sources given in the article prove, and this article does an excellent job of presenting an encyclopedic summary of that fact to the general public. There is nothing more that you can ask of an encyclopedia. Davidhc 21:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Again, the E&P article mentions the Friedman Unit in one sentence and then talks about a different subject. As other editors have already said many, many times, that is simply not enough to meet WP:A. I don't know why you say the article "talks about nothing but the Friedman Unit", because that is just not true. You don't need to bring this up repeatedly and bold every paragraph. And I'm not sure which guidelines you keep referring to, but without reliable sources this article would certainly not meet WP:NEO. — Kelw ( talk) 23:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep for now: if you merge with Atrios you also have to merge with Thomas Friedman. The 'next six months' phenomenon in Friedman's columns is notable and supported by multiple non-trivial sources, dating from the original FAIR article. If editors are prepared to migrate discussion of the phenomenon to the Friedman entry (where it currently has an 'original research' tag) then discussion of the 'Friedman Unit' neologism can be migrated to the Atrios entry with an appropriate cross-reference. But I think the Friedman merge cannot be ignored, and has to occur at the same time, because the 'next six months' phenomenon is not limited to discussions by Atrios. Holgate 22:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article does not contain any verifiable information that hasn't already been merged into
Atrios. If you wish to merge into the Friedman article, that can be done from the Atrios article after a consensus is obtained on the Friedman talk page. You might argue the "six months" phenomenon is notable, but in my opintion this article on a neologism is clearly not notable and needs to be deleted. —
Kelw (
talk)
23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes no sense whatsoever. the elements of the article that should be merged into the Friedman article (on the repeated 'next six months') are ones that shouldn't be merged into the Atrios article, on basic relevance grounds. Hence my vote: the 'next six months' material is notable and verifiable for Friedman, and dumping it off in the Atrios article as a half-way house just shifts the issue without resolving it. If the neologism is notable enough to merge with the Atrios article, then the thing to which it refers needs to be in its proper place. (In short: if A coins term B to refer to what X says about Y, then the discussion of Y needs to be on X's page, not A's.) Merge to both, or keep for now.
Holgate
01:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please maintain a civil tone and refrain attacks like "that makes no sense whatsoever". If you insist, you can take out what doesn't belong in the Atrios article and place it in the Friedman article. The "six months" phenomenon can easily be summarized in a single sentence on Friedman's article, with a reference linking to the FAIR article. Beyond this, all the content is either original research or already merged. There is no need to keep this article around if you want to merge into Friedman's article. —
Kelw (
talk)
02:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please refrain from reflexive accusations of incivility:
WP:CIVIL is not a cudgel to be waved indiscriminately. The 'six months' phenomenon deserves more than a single sentence, but I'm going to deal with that over at the Friedman article and start a more substantial merge.
Holgate
13:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, you have pretty well defined the debate here. If the article was called "Six months," then it would be overwhelmingly well sourced. The point is that the reliable sources do NOT use the term "Friedman Unit." Politicians and pundits have used the "six month" expression for (lest I date myself) generations, about all kinds of situations. The article gives a definition of the term Friedman unit as a "six month period" but then exclusively provides examples from the Iraq war discussions - not one of which uses the term "Friedman unit" or the variations ("Friedman," "F.U.").
Risker
13:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- You make a good argument for looking to see if there are sufficient secondary sources to use for an an "Antecedents" section (cognates before "FU" was coined), while keeping in compliance with OR/synthesis guidelines. Since these may be more likely to appear in books, not digital form, it may be some time before these are unearthed. But this is no argument for deleting the article.
- I think we've reached a degree of consensus here, Kelw: I've sketched out the 'six months' criticism on the Friedman article, providing mutual links between that section and the Atrios article. That's the space that this neologism should really occupy. The quotations are worth saving somewhere, though Demopedia/DKosopedia seems more appropriate. Holgate 18:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Re: Huffington Post as a reliable source: although there are blog-sections on HuffPost, it is far more than that. As the Editor of Salon magazine recently wrote: "I root for the Politico [website] and other growing publications less new to the Web, like the Huffington Post and Josh Marshall's growing Talking Points empire, because if Salon is right about the future of Web publishing (and I believe we are) we can't, won't and shouldn't be the only ones (besides bloggers) [sic] making an independent go of it out here. So I applaud the Politico and the journalists who've been lured from old media to explore the new world." So the editor of Salon distinguishes HuffPost from bloggers. It does not make sense to apply WP guidelines on any old blog to online news sites edited and written by experienced and highly-regarded journalists. Eugene Banks 16:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, you have pretty well defined the debate here. If the article was called "Six months," then it would be overwhelmingly well sourced. The point is that the reliable sources do NOT use the term "Friedman Unit." Politicians and pundits have used the "six month" expression for (lest I date myself) generations, about all kinds of situations. The article gives a definition of the term Friedman unit as a "six month period" but then exclusively provides examples from the Iraq war discussions - not one of which uses the term "Friedman unit" or the variations ("Friedman," "F.U.").
Risker
13:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please refrain from reflexive accusations of incivility:
WP:CIVIL is not a cudgel to be waved indiscriminately. The 'six months' phenomenon deserves more than a single sentence, but I'm going to deal with that over at the Friedman article and start a more substantial merge.
Holgate
13:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please maintain a civil tone and refrain attacks like "that makes no sense whatsoever". If you insist, you can take out what doesn't belong in the Atrios article and place it in the Friedman article. The "six months" phenomenon can easily be summarized in a single sentence on Friedman's article, with a reference linking to the FAIR article. Beyond this, all the content is either original research or already merged. There is no need to keep this article around if you want to merge into Friedman's article. —
Kelw (
talk)
02:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- That makes no sense whatsoever. the elements of the article that should be merged into the Friedman article (on the repeated 'next six months') are ones that shouldn't be merged into the Atrios article, on basic relevance grounds. Hence my vote: the 'next six months' material is notable and verifiable for Friedman, and dumping it off in the Atrios article as a half-way house just shifts the issue without resolving it. If the neologism is notable enough to merge with the Atrios article, then the thing to which it refers needs to be in its proper place. (In short: if A coins term B to refer to what X says about Y, then the discussion of Y needs to be on X's page, not A's.) Merge to both, or keep for now.
Holgate
01:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article does not contain any verifiable information that hasn't already been merged into
Atrios. If you wish to merge into the Friedman article, that can be done from the Atrios article after a consensus is obtained on the Friedman talk page. You might argue the "six months" phenomenon is notable, but in my opintion this article on a neologism is clearly not notable and needs to be deleted. —
Kelw (
talk)
23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep - While blogs might not be reliable sources in general, they are precisely what is needed to establish the usage of a neologism. If you take a walk and every third person you meet uses a particular neologism, it doesn't matter if the people you've met are experts on the subject the neologism is part of, or whether they are experts on usage, or whether they even properly understand the word or are using it correctly. What matters is that their very use of the word establishes the diffusion of the neologism into the general population, which is really the point. So, if a lot of different blogs are using "Friedman unit", then the word is in usage, whether or not the bloggers understand the first thing about Iraq or Thomas Friedman.
Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)
14:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's a dictionary's job,
not an encyclopedia's, to document usage of words.
Pan Dan
16:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is, however, an encyclopedia's job to provide background on what it means, where it came from, what provoked its coinage, who coined it, the spread of its use, debate about the meaning, etc. etc. etc. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 01:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's a dictionary's job,
not an encyclopedia's, to document usage of words.
Pan Dan
16:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Arbitrary section break
Comment: Last night I went through the first 500 google-hits on the term "Friedman Unit." Out of that 500, there was exactly one link that constituted a reliable source, and it is already in the article. Perhaps more crucially, there were also almost 100 mirrors of the Wikipedia article, and at least 50 more that said "Wikipedia defines...." And of course WP was #1 and #2 on the google-hit parade. In other words - Wikipedia's entry is directly or indirectly responsible for 150 out of 500 of the top google-hits on this term. It certainly looks to me that WP:NEO is an issue here. Risker 23:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for acknowledging that there are reliable sources for this article. Please see my own test results below. Davidhc 17:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
An experiment: This may seem like overkill, but I ran a quick test of my own because this is an issue that is important to ALL entries in wikipedia. I ran three variations of google searches for the Friedman Unit to see how it faired alone, with, and without wikipedia in the search criteria using the search terms:
1) "Friedman Unit" 2) "Friedman Unit" wikipedia 3) "Friedman Unit" -wikipedia
The results were as follows:
Friedman Unit alone: 259,000 (Wikipedia entry was first hit) with: 587 without: 261,000
(NOTE: if you run Friedman Unit without the quotes you get over 1.5 million hits)
To get a random sample of wikipedia to compare it to, I hit the "random article" link five times and did the same test on the pages it gave me. The results were as follows:
Thottiyam alone: 546 (wikipedia first hit) with wikipedia: 92 without wikipedia: 510
Air transports of heads of state alone: 226 (wikipedia second hit) with: 154 without: 64
Yamaha DX7 alone: 127,000 (wikipedia 3rd hit) with: 963 without: 118,000
Music at Work alone: 77,900 (wikipedia 6th hit) with: 553 without: 73,100
Enfield Town F.C. alone: 559 (wikipedia 3rd hit) with: 226 without: 508
As you can see, ALL the entries came up with wikipedia in the top 10 hits. Also, the Friedman Unit has by far the best ratio of with to without than any of the five random entries, which means that by the argument given above, we would have to delete ALL of these entries, and I am sure many more. The reason wikipedia shows up is not because of the popularity of any given article, but because of the popularity of wikipedia in general. When people want a source to link a topic in their web page, they link to wikipedia. All the copycat sites know this, and so they farm off the wikipedia entries to get traffic. Hence there is a big difference between a site that mirrors the wikipedia article and someone saying "as defined by wikipedia" in their web page. Making the argument that a wikipedia page is somehow pushing a neologism only applies if that term does not exist anywhere else but in wikipedia. The multiple non-trivial sources given in the article on the Friedman unit prove that the term is in wide use without the help of the article. Davidhc 17:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- As another editor already mentioned, counting Google hits is not research. Do you have any "reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term" to satisfy the standard set at
WP:NEO? Please recall that the "six month phenomenon" that the term describes is NOT the same thing as the term itself. So far, all I can see that you have is three sentences from HuffPo and one sentence from E&P.
Where's the beef?
Croctotheface
21:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry Croc if you got confused. If you scroll up a bit, then you will see the comment that I was responding to. But thank you for repeating the fact that google hits alone do not insure notability. I didn't feel it was necessary to repeat that fact in order to refute the claims of neologism that I was responding to, but I guess it would have been sufficient. Still, when you read the comment I was responding to you will see that Risker in his google search gave further confirmation to the fact that one of the references listed in the article is in fact a "reliable source."
Davidhc
00:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- You're not actually responding to what I asked. I asked if you know of a reliable source of which the "Friedman Unit" is the SUBJECT. That is, not merely mentioned or used in the article, but article itself is ON the "Unit". Not on Friedman or his proclivity to set arbitrary dates in the future, but the actual neologism that we're talking about. It is my contention that I have yet to see a single reliable source that is ON the Friedman unit. I've seen a one sentence mention in a reliable source. That does not establish notability. Do you know of any reliable sources of which the "Friedman unit" is the subject? That is, if you asked the author of the piece what it is about, he or she would likely say, "well, this is an article about the Friedman unit"?
Croctotheface
01:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- That strikes me as an overly stringent interpretation of 'reliable sourcing', and ignores the multiple non-trivial standard that has already been demonstrated. Nowhere do the guidelines on
reliable sources,
notability,
attribution,
original research, etc. state or hint that an article must be the sole subject of a reliable source. Nor do guidelines say that these sources must be about e.g., the etymology, origins, history, definition, existence qua neologism, or usage of a term, that would misconstrue the guidelines. Much of Wikipedia would fail this test, and not just
crappy articles. A source in which the concept is a theme or featured prominently is clearly sufficient. I respectfully disagree with your assessment that
Friedman unit is not the subject of reliable sources as cited in the article, it's Talk page, and above. For example:
- It is a significant subject of the E&P article, as Davidhc enumerated above: "The E&P article is about the Friedman Unit, [...] in fact the article proves that the Friedman Unit was not a 'one off' event because the main body of the article is on how Thomas Friedman continues to use the Friedman Unit." It would, of course, be very difficult to write an article on it and not "mention Friedman and his proclivity to set arbitrary dates in the future," as E&P did, so of course those subjects are present as well.
- The online magazine Huffington Post, a reliable source (as documented above), deems the phrase "Friedman Unit" to be the best new phrase of 2006.
- The phrase is a also significant subject of the CNN interview; even if the exact phrase itself is not used, Kurtz is clearly asking Friedman about the concept.
- An online column (not a blog) for The American Prospect notes that "Friedman has become justly famous for the Friedman Unit -- a 6-month, endlessly renewable time period that will prove critical for Iraq."
- As noted above, the guidelines' caution on use of blogs as a source is not absolute. And in this case (as discussed on the Talk page and here), there are good reasons why one might also consider blogs (such as DailyKos or the thousands of others that use the term) as "multiple non-trivial sources'. Namely, the concept FU contains within it a critique of traditional media (for a lack of critical reporting on the Iraq war early on), hence its widespread usage in informal circles as well as the reliable sources documented above.
- While Google is not a reliable research source, on the other hand at some point in establishing the widespread usage of a term, quantity has it's own quality, and 250,000 hits for "Friedman unit" should not be ignored.
- Etc. Twedle 06:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- That strikes me as an overly stringent interpretation of 'reliable sourcing', and ignores the multiple non-trivial standard that has already been demonstrated. Nowhere do the guidelines on
reliable sources,
notability,
attribution,
original research, etc. state or hint that an article must be the sole subject of a reliable source. Nor do guidelines say that these sources must be about e.g., the etymology, origins, history, definition, existence qua neologism, or usage of a term, that would misconstrue the guidelines. Much of Wikipedia would fail this test, and not just
crappy articles. A source in which the concept is a theme or featured prominently is clearly sufficient. I respectfully disagree with your assessment that
Friedman unit is not the subject of reliable sources as cited in the article, it's Talk page, and above. For example:
- You're not actually responding to what I asked. I asked if you know of a reliable source of which the "Friedman Unit" is the SUBJECT. That is, not merely mentioned or used in the article, but article itself is ON the "Unit". Not on Friedman or his proclivity to set arbitrary dates in the future, but the actual neologism that we're talking about. It is my contention that I have yet to see a single reliable source that is ON the Friedman unit. I've seen a one sentence mention in a reliable source. That does not establish notability. Do you know of any reliable sources of which the "Friedman unit" is the subject? That is, if you asked the author of the piece what it is about, he or she would likely say, "well, this is an article about the Friedman unit"?
Croctotheface
01:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry Croc if you got confused. If you scroll up a bit, then you will see the comment that I was responding to. But thank you for repeating the fact that google hits alone do not insure notability. I didn't feel it was necessary to repeat that fact in order to refute the claims of neologism that I was responding to, but I guess it would have been sufficient. Still, when you read the comment I was responding to you will see that Risker in his google search gave further confirmation to the fact that one of the references listed in the article is in fact a "reliable source."
Davidhc
00:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- If you disagree with the guideline, that's fine, but it's unambiguous here.
WP:NEO says, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." The word "about" is italicized WITHIN THE GUIDELINE. Some people here seem to be operating as if WP guidelines and policies say something like "if a topic is mentioned at all in any reliable source, it should have a Wikipedia article." That is not the case.
Croctotheface
13:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Yes, and as discussed above, the cited articles are about the term (as well as other subjects). "Some people" is an unrefutable charge. "as if... something like... 'topic mentioned at all in any reliable source'" --
sarcasm is not constructive. Btw, the page on neologisms is simply an ongoing discussion of possible guidelines. There are four higher levels of policy and dozens of other guidelines. At the top, see for example the
Five Pillars of Wikipedia. Below that, see the
Simplified Ruleset of 15 rules. Below even that, see the
Wikipedia:List of policies with 42 policies. Where "neologism" fits is one section below even that, under "No Original Research," for which the main policy is: "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas." FU clearly fits this overarching policy. And within WP:OR, the emphasis is on attribution: the guidance is only against neologisms "without attributing the neologism to a reputable source." The roots of the Neologism page, which is one layer further down, stated: "Wikipedia doesn't accept fan-made neologisms unless they have realistic evidence of existence via search engine hits (e.g. Google)." This was strengthened to weed out editors who created a term on their own blog, then -- with
nolittle other adoption of the term -- promoting it within Wikipedia. Although a few Google hits to random blogs set up by just anyone are no longer seen as a reputable source, FU goes far beyond this. BipDeBop 17:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Yes, and as discussed above, the cited articles are about the term (as well as other subjects). "Some people" is an unrefutable charge. "as if... something like... 'topic mentioned at all in any reliable source'" --
sarcasm is not constructive. Btw, the page on neologisms is simply an ongoing discussion of possible guidelines. There are four higher levels of policy and dozens of other guidelines. At the top, see for example the
Five Pillars of Wikipedia. Below that, see the
Simplified Ruleset of 15 rules. Below even that, see the
Wikipedia:List of policies with 42 policies. Where "neologism" fits is one section below even that, under "No Original Research," for which the main policy is: "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas." FU clearly fits this overarching policy. And within WP:OR, the emphasis is on attribution: the guidance is only against neologisms "without attributing the neologism to a reputable source." The roots of the Neologism page, which is one layer further down, stated: "Wikipedia doesn't accept fan-made neologisms unless they have realistic evidence of existence via search engine hits (e.g. Google)." This was strengthened to weed out editors who created a term on their own blog, then -- with
- If you disagree with the guideline, that's fine, but it's unambiguous here.
WP:NEO says, "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." The word "about" is italicized WITHIN THE GUIDELINE. Some people here seem to be operating as if WP guidelines and policies say something like "if a topic is mentioned at all in any reliable source, it should have a Wikipedia article." That is not the case.
Croctotheface
13:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Second arbitrary section break
Keep. It's out there, it's in use, it's a popular concept. I don't understand the urge to strip Wikipedia of articles. Nor do I understand people who contribute to an online encyclopedia that anybody can edit turning up their noses at blogs. Vidor 04:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Don't worry about people slamming blogs. In general its a good guideline to have as it prevents people from pushing their own ideas and then backing it up with their own blogs. Also, in the current case of the Friedman Unit, it has all the references it needs to meet the criteria set out in the guidelines, so people can go on slamming blogs all they want, it won't make a difference. Davidhc 06:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Delete - The article cites many cases of people saying things will happen in 6 months, 3 months, 6-9 months etc. It cites no use (except by a blogger) of the term itself. If some one can come up with a citable use of the term 'Friedman unit' itself, they should do so and add it to the article. Otherwise it is a mere neologism. Peterkingiron 13:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- With all due respect, these issues (usage, citations, reputation of online magazines, role of blogs) have been addressed above. BipDeBop 19:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Keep. Re: neologisms. Since this seems to be the main focus of requests for deletion, I've synthesized some of these points here, with minor improvements/ clarifications/ rejoinders. I hope this is OK with others. (My apologies in advance if not, I'm not trying to claim credit for these, nor put words in the original commenters' mouths, nor just repeat them. I'm trying to move the discussion forward.) BipDeBop 19:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- The neologism rule is in place to keep people from using Wikipedia to coin a term. In the case of the Friedman Unit, the term is already widely used without the help of this article. While the google test does not assure notability of a term, the many and varied hit results for the Friedman Unit show that it is widely used by millions of people. (User:Risker asked for a reliable source on the estimate of "millions." An appeal to logic: with 260,000 Google hits for FU, including a number of widely-read online magazines and blogs, it is reasonable to conjecture that on average each hit was read by at least 8 people, thus two million is a reasonable working estimate for purposes of discussion.)
- Wikipedia guidelines do a good job of making sure that articles are not hoaxes or inventions of their editors or made for the pure purpose of pushing neologisms that are not already widespread (by that I mean a neologism that is an invention of the editor). The Friedman Unit is a fact that exists outside of the context of this article, as the sources given in the article prove, and this article does an excellent job of presenting an encyclopedic summary of that fact to the general public. (The E&P article does not just "mention the Friedman Unit in one sentence and then talks about a different subject," as discussed elsewhere.)
- What matters is the widespread online use of the word establishes the diffusion of the neologism into the general population, which is really the point. (The article goes on to provide far more than a mere dictionary definition.)
- Making the argument that a wikipedia page is somehow pushing a neologism only applies if that term does not exist anywhere else but in wikipedia. The multiple non-trivial sources given in the article on the Friedman unit prove that the term is in wide use without the help of the article.
- Please also note the the restrictions on neologisms are designed to prevent the creation of new terms through Wikipedia, not describing existing uses (from secondary sources). This article does not "define or introduce new terms or provide new definitions of existing terms," it simply reports on an existing neologism with widespread adoption. "Articles that use neologisms should be edited to ensure they conform with the core Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Attribution," which this article does. The primary source for the term was (it seems) Atrios. The secondary sources include the Editor & Publisher article, and references in the journals listed in the article. This page is a tertiary article.
- WP's VfD/AfD process has been horribly mangled, if not outright broken, for quite some time now, as people move beyond the entirely laudable goal of culling vanity cruft and spam to grind all of the sharp points off of articles at the edge of Wikipedia — precisely those articles where Wikipedia is most useful, IMHO, in that one can find plenty of good information sources for "Yugoslavia" or "Aaron Burr", but not so many good information sources on, say, Kazu Kibuishi's Copper. I think that "Friedman Unit" is squarely within the ambit of acceptable articles for Wikipedia.
- Trying to squelch a legitimate new term is as much an abuse of "avoid neologisms" policy as is trying to promote a not-yet-accepted term. (Perhaps someone should revise the neologism policy to reflect this. As Bryan pointed out, WP guidelines are in a state of flux, especially on WP:ATT, WP:RS, WP:OR, etc.)
- While it is true that "other crap exists" is not a valid argument unto itself, it is also true that guidelines emerge up from the consensus of editing on other articles. In the context of all the arguments for (and against) this page, consider why is Cheese-eating surrender monkeys an article if FU isn't? The "Cheese-eating" article even begins by stating that within a year or two of inception "the phrase began to fall into disuse." Why don't those who favor deleting FU also favor deleting "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys"? (I do not advocate this.) Here are just a few other hastily-gathered random examples of neologisms with articles in Wikipedia: WikiWikiWeb, PmWiki, CRC, Delimiter, InterWiki, Metacharacter, Spyce, Leet, l33t, n00bs, B1FF, -izzle, boxen, warez, SFV, kewl, CDisplay, CDisplayEx, Zipeg, ARJ. If all these are allowed, then why not Friedman unit? Converely, if FU is deleted then all these and thousands of other neologisms must be as well. (We could invite their editors into this discussion, perhaps relocated onto NEO:Talk, but this would seem to be unnecessarily provoking controversy. However, if a strict interpretation of neologism guidelines were adopted here then it would have to be applied to all these other articles as well.) Unlike most of these examples, FU does in fact does have an article about it in reliable sources, including E&P. Even if it did not, an encyclopedia should not discriminate against neologisms with a social, controversial, or political usage, while allowing neologisms relating to technology or the Internet.
BipDeBop 19:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment. I'm no longer going to attempt to engage in the specifics of the debate here. If editors are going to insist that an article that mentions a term for one sentence is "about" the term, I don't really think that there's much hope for arriving at any kind of common ground. It seems to me that most of the arguments in favor of keeping amount to "it's important" or "I like it", which, obviously, are not the same as notability. I want to repeat, for probably the second or third time, that any and all relevant information about this term can be presented at Atrios and, potentially, Thomas Friedman. The current page can become a redirect. Nothing of value will be lost in doing this: this is not an attempt to erase the term. It simply does not meet the standards required to have its own Wikipedia article. Croctotheface 13:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Arguments for deletion
When I originally merged I used the following arguments. I consider them still to be valid and I still think the article should be deleted and a summary merged with Atrios.
WP:NEO does not apply solely to terms coined for or on Wikipedia:
- The Friedman Unit is undoubtedly a neologism. The source is recent and known. Secondary sources almost invariably use the same primary source, Duncan Black's weblog.
- While the page makes note that such things must be referenced, WP:NEO specifically mentions page intended to track the growth and adoption of neologisms as an example of infringing articles. it should be noted that this is the primary purpose of this page.
WP:SYN discourages the collation of various unrelated sources to advance an original argument:
- Few if any of the "sources" listed in the main table have ever heard of the term "Friedman Unit", let along used it themselves. Using them as "references" for the Friedman (unit) article directly fails WP:SYN.
In addition, and importantly:
- Practically all of this is taken from sources Black has linked himself. In essence, it's just a distillation of a bunch of Eschaton posts.
There are far better places for such research than Wikipedia. WP:NOT Lexis-Nexis.
This really belongs in either list of political epithets or in the Atrios article for these reasons. An expansive article on the term is unwarranted and really not greatly suitable for an encyclopedia.
Chris Cunningham 14:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Consensus for Keep?? No consensus for keep
Thank you Croctotheface, Risker, and Dhartung for changing your position from delete to keep with edits. If there is now a consensus to keep the article, then I think it is time to end the deletion debate and move back to the normal editing discussion on the article's talk page. If you would like to edit the article, however, please refrain from deleting large sections without reaching a consensus through the proper discussions. Davidhc 17:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I have most certainly NOT changed my position from delete, and you know perfectly well that is the case. Regardless of the merit of an article, I personally feel if I am going to to take a position (whether keep or delete) at an AfD, then I have accepted an obligation to try to improve the article. The fact that the three of us have all deleted the original research from the article, only to be reverted with tags such as "vandalism," makes a mockery of this process. I have retitled this section because the former title borders on
NPA, and at minimum is beyond presumptuous.
Risker
17:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I thought this was pretty bizarre as well. Croctotheface's last comment was a belief that the best result would be a merge and last edit was a removal of the contentious table. How this can be construed as a U-turn is beyond me. Chris Cunningham 18:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- My position is very much for delete with redirect to Atrios. This comment from Davidhc strikes me as very, very strange. Croctotheface 18:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's clear at this point that there is no consensus to either delete or keep. With some improvements and judicious content decisions, this article should be a keep, especially in light of the multiple reliable sources cited as using the term. Bill Oaf 01:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't Take the law into your own hands We have not heard back from Dhartung, but if you all are still strongly for deletion, then your efforts to erase large sections of the article currently under debate in the absence of any consensus over those sections, can only be interpreted as having the intent to override the AfD procedures. It is important to note that there was no "editing" involved, only "white blanking" whole sections of the article along with their external references. Once more, the table section that was deleted was not debated in these pages. Much of the debate centered on the references in the body of the text, not the table. If you have issues with the table, then I suggest that we end the deletion debate and move back to editing, or that you debate the contents of the table in this discussion, and keep pushing for deletion. However, if you want the article deleted, then you are going to have to either wait for a consensus, or wait for an administrator to weigh in, as specified in the discussion guidelines. You can not take the law into your own hands and start deleting the article at your own discretion while a debate is ongoing. This is not my opinion, this is simply following the guidelines of a discussion. I am going to restore the article so that it can be debated properly without censoring the very text that we are supposed to be debating. Davidhc 20:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- It is common practice during AfD discussions to edit the article. In most cases, these edits serve to improve the article and often help the case of those seeking to keep. It seems that your declaration that by editing the article, I was somehow "changing my position from delete to keep" was an attempt to use this AfD discussion to make a WP:POINT. Instead, I was making an edit based on the fact that I saw basically nobody, regardless of their history with the article or opinion on whether it should be kept or deleted, defending the inclusion of the table that I deleted. I also want to note that this is not a discussion over whether to delete certain bits of text in the article, but rather whether to delete the whole thing. If this discussion is closed as keep or no consensus, that would not be an endorsement of everything within the page. This case is a content dispute. Your leveling accusations of "vandalism" (in edit summaries at the page), "blanking", and "censorship" do not add to the discourse here. Your assumptions of bad faith do not aid the goal of reaching a consensus about what is best for Wikipedia. Croctotheface 21:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Just to share with the community, Croctotheface saw it fit to leave the following warning on my talk page (I have since removed it):
3RR
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Friedman (unit). If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. Croctotheface 23:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
(Special multiple AFD) - Individual duplicate episode summaries for season 1 of TV show 8 Simple Rules
Someone has made individual articles for each episode of season 1 for the television show 8 Simple Rules. However, the information contained in each is a duplicate of information already found at List of 8 Simple Rules episodes. For example, the same information at Wall of Shame (8 Simple Rules episode) is also inside the aforementioned list (see the listing for the second episode). I am proposing that all of the individual articles are deleted because the information is already neatly found on the list of episodes. I will handle the individual AFDs (or prods ?) for all if a "delete" consensus is reached. -- Guroadrunner 15:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- (Your comment here on 8 Simple Rules)
- Um, why not just redirect the duplicate articles back to the list? Otto4711 18:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. I don't have time to look at this properly, but a delete/redirect strategy seems okay. YechielMan 18:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Redirects seem like a good idea. Realkyhick 02:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Project complete - I have gone ahead and redirected all of the season 1 articles to their main home. The season 2 and 3 articles need to stay for the time being because their plot summaries, etc. have not been put in the list, so that would lead to loss of information, whereas removing the season 1 articles is removing duplicate information. Guroadrunner 10:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- Update - it appears that another editor has gone ahead and formatted the list for the season 2 and 3 episodes, and that those articles have been deleted as well. I say close this AFD as the project is complete. Guroadrunner 08:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)