- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Sandstein 22:45, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Lizette Parker
- Lizette Parker ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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fails notability WP:NPOL, only reliable sources are obituaries in local newspaper. Rusf10 ( talk) 18:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - First African woman mayor of a sizeable municipality well researched and added to by other editors, why can people just nominate articles for deletion just because they feel like it? It is the same swat team of deletionists backing each otbers arguements from article to article, you can see that here from the list of Mayors of Teaneck on to the actial mayors' pages. It is extremely time consuming to keep answering to these people who have total free range to keep nominatng things for deletion until the cows come home. Masterknighted ( talk) 18:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- she was first African-american mayor of the county, not the country, not even the state, not notable.-- Rusf10 ( talk) 18:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete Teanech is not a "sizable municipality" it is one of hundreds of mid-sized communities in New Jersey and in the greater New York City area. We would need indepth coverage to show notability, which is lacking here. At least the article does not say she was the first "African-American mayor" of Teaneck, it says she was the first "African-American woman mayor" of Teaneck. Nor does it assert she was the first African-American who was a mayor in Bergen County, New Jersey, no there also the first African-American woman mayor. Mia Love being the first African-American woman mayor in the state of Utah for example (I list her because she is the only holder of a state-wide title of this type) might be enough for notability, but Parker's claim is not. For the record, since Mrs. Love is a member of congress, her previous service as mayor and as the first African-American elected official in all of Utah County are not material to her being notable. She is also one of a short list of people who received enough coverage as a congressional candidate that she was clearly notable, even after her first race that she lost. In the case of Teaneck with the inordinate amount of people on the list of people from Teaneck, it really does feel like there has been an unjustified campaign to create articles on people from that community which undermines the broad, world-wide coverage nature of Wikipedia. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Firsts are for the Guinness Book of World Records, WP:Notability only requires that "a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Maybe they get that coverage for being the first of something, maybe not, but we do not have articles only on the first, or biggest, or the most. -- RAN ( talk) 05:05, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep See argument at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey. --
RAN (
talk)
19:08, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- This argument totally ignores the fact that we require above routine coveage for mayors to be notable, especially of places with less than 50,000 people. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:20, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- WP:POL is for people that do not meet the GNG requirement but deserve an article, she meets the GNG standard. --
RAN (
talk)
14:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Every single person in politics who fails NPOL could always still claim to pass GNG anyway, if "a couple of pieces of purely local coverage exist" were all it took to exempt them from having to pass NPOL just because they had "passed GNG" instead. We would have to keep an article about every single mayor of anywhere, every single city or town councillor anywhere, every single school board trustee anywhere, every single non-winning candidate for any office anywhere, and on and so forth, if "a few pieces of local media coverage exist" was in and of itself enough to hand them a GNG pass despite failing NPOL. But we don't: the rule is that if they don't pass NPOL, then they have to be demonstrated as significantly more notable than the norm for their level of prominence (significantly more notable than most other mayors, significantly more notable than most other non-winning political candidates, etc.) before they actually clear GNG. Bearcat ( talk) 16:44, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- WP:POL is for people that do not meet the GNG requirement but deserve an article, she meets the GNG standard. --
RAN (
talk)
14:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Comment all the coverage is routine. The only article on her election is a local article from the Bergen paper which almost certainly would run an article on someone being elected no matter who they were. Her election was not even enough to cause coverage in New Jersey wide papers, let alone other papers in the metro-area she was in. On the other hand, there is a little more coverage of her death, but this is the type of straight news coverage that comes when a public office holder dies in office, and is still not enough to cause an article on her to avoid the not news rules. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:18, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Coverage is coverage, that is what defines notability. I really do not know what "routine" coverage is, or what the converse would be of "extraordinary coverage".
The Ghits are large including New York television and New York newspapers. Titles include "Lizette Parker, groundbreaking mayor of Teaneck, dies at 44" and "History-making N.J mayor remembered at funeral". --
RAN (
talk)
05:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- No, not all coverage is created equal when it comes to passing
WP:GNG — there are certain kinds of coverage that absolutely any mayor of any town or city always receives in their local media: election-night "who won" summaries, obituaries, things in the city getting named after them after their death, and on and so forth. When it comes to mayors, the difference between "routine" coverage that cannot support notability and "extraordinary" coverage that can support notability is this: does the coverage just represent exactly what any mayor of anywhere could always show, or is it going above and beyond what any mayor of anywhere could always show?
Bearcat (
talk)
22:30, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- "Coverage is coverage" is wrong. The standard is significant coverage. If all coverage was equal, many high school quarterbacks or local police department spokesmen would become notable because they get mentioned often..... Niteshift36 ( talk) 14:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- No, not all coverage is created equal when it comes to passing
WP:GNG — there are certain kinds of coverage that absolutely any mayor of any town or city always receives in their local media: election-night "who won" summaries, obituaries, things in the city getting named after them after their death, and on and so forth. When it comes to mayors, the difference between "routine" coverage that cannot support notability and "extraordinary" coverage that can support notability is this: does the coverage just represent exactly what any mayor of anywhere could always show, or is it going above and beyond what any mayor of anywhere could always show?
Bearcat (
talk)
22:30, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Coverage is coverage, that is what defines notability. I really do not know what "routine" coverage is, or what the converse would be of "extraordinary coverage".
The Ghits are large including New York television and New York newspapers. Titles include "Lizette Parker, groundbreaking mayor of Teaneck, dies at 44" and "History-making N.J mayor remembered at funeral". --
RAN (
talk)
05:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Parker was the first African-American woman mayor of a vicinity in Bergen County. [1]— Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterknighted ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 09 December 2017 (UTC)
- Being the first member of an underrepresented minority group to hold an otherwise non-notable political office is not an inclusion freebie that automatically makes a person more notable than all of her non-minority predecessors in the same position. If a town isn't large enough that its mayors would all automatically qualify for articles because mayor, then neither her gender nor her racial background make her a special case in the absence of nationalized coverage about the distinction. Bearcat ( talk) 22:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
References
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- delete John Lambert argues the case well. Claims to notability are insufficient. LibStar ( talk) 04:24, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Teaneck is noted for its racial diversity and diversity of its public officials. On a side note one of the vicinity's most noted residents is Ahmed Zayat owner of one of history's most famous multi-cultural horses tbe Egyptian Jewish triple crown winner American Pharoah. Take a look at the list of many notable people who have called Teaneck home and see that it is a unique town whose diversity is worth noting. Masterknighted ( talk) 04:54, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete. NN mayor. There is no assertion of notability in the article. There are refs but they substantiate that she lived a very humdrum life. Szzuk ( talk) 16:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep The nom is mistaken, unless one considers the New York Post [1], WPIX [2], The Root [3], and WABC-TV [4]—which carried a report from the Associated Press—"local newspaper[s]". — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 16:48, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Besides being local, all these sources (and all except one in the article) are basically obituaries. You'd think she'd get some coverage while she was still alive.--
Rusf10 (
talk)
18:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- You're either misinformed or (more likely) lying. The Root is national, and the Associated Press is an international wire service. And New York City media doesn't routinely cover small-town New Jersey news, so whether the New York media is "local" is questionable. Face it, you're wrong about this article. — Malik Shabazz Talk
- Besides being local, all these sources (and all except one in the article) are basically obituaries. You'd think she'd get some coverage while she was still alive.--
Rusf10 (
talk)
18:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
/ Stalk 00:05, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Dude, don't call me a liar. FACT #1: All of your sources are nothing more than obituaries. FACT #2: The Root may be national, but not well-known, besides they wrote little more than a few sentences. FACT #3: The AP article refers to her as "a 44-year-old New Jersey mayor" in the opening sentence, hardly sounds notable to me.-- Rusf10 ( talk) 00:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep Article has sufficient sources. GNG includes local sources and hum-drum sources. Unscintillating ( talk) 18:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Also, routine coverage is coverage, and run-of-the-mill coverage is coverage. Unscintillating ( talk) 01:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's a part you often get wrong. It's not a question of coverage, it's a question of significant coverage. All coverage isn't equal. Niteshift36 ( talk) 14:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete. Merely having a job and run of the mill coverage doesn't pass GNG. Niteshift36 ( talk) 20:13, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep - Parker is the first female African-American mayor of ANY community in New Jersey's most populous county, Bergen County. That's an achievement that was rightly honored/noted by the media and included in any list of African-American or New Jersey firsts. She justifiably deserves to be recognized here on Wikipedia as well, as her place in history is no less important than the first Muslim, Jewish, or female individuals to become mayor in Teaneck or Bergen County. Scanlan ( talk) 03:25, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- See, this is where I strongly disagree. Notability should not be determined by race or gender (or both). She is the first African-American mayor of a county (in a town that doesn't even directly elect the mayor). As I and others stated before, she is neither the first female nor first African-american mayor in county (and certainly not in the state). Can somebody please tell me who the first african-american female mayor in New Jersey was? I ask this because I honestly don't know and I doubt we have an article on her (we should and she certainly would be more notable).--
Rusf10 (
talk)
04:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Being "first" isn't as notable as we try to make it sound sometimes. Who was the first mayor over 6 feet tall? Or the first one under 150 pounds? Niteshift36 ( talk) 17:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- It is none of our business why reliable sources cover a subject. We only require, at WP:GNG, that "a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Why they cover a topic is their business. -- RAN ( talk) 19:56, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- See, this is where I strongly disagree. Notability should not be determined by race or gender (or both). She is the first African-American mayor of a county (in a town that doesn't even directly elect the mayor). As I and others stated before, she is neither the first female nor first African-american mayor in county (and certainly not in the state). Can somebody please tell me who the first african-american female mayor in New Jersey was? I ask this because I honestly don't know and I doubt we have an article on her (we should and she certainly would be more notable).--
Rusf10 (
talk)
04:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Now that you have asked the question, as far as I can see from the search engine results that what comes up is Lizette Parker being mentioned. It seems that no one has deemed this statistic important enough to list; she just might have been the first black woman mayor of any sizeable municipality in the Garden State but of course we would need a source to clearly state that. Masterknighted ( talk) 16:35, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- That statement is already covered by 4 sources in the lede. --
RAN (
talk)
19:58, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Those sources help establish believe that she was the first African American woman mayor of a city in Bergen County but not the state in its totality Masterknighted ( talk) 20:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- That statement is already covered by 4 sources in the lede. --
RAN (
talk)
19:58, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete. Teaneck is not large enough that its mayors would be automatically notable just for being mayors, and being a place's first woman or first African-American (or first African-American woman) mayor is not an automatic notability boost either. If she'd been the first African-American women to serve as a mayor anywhere in the entire United States, then there'd be a notability case — but if she's merely the first in her own city or county, then that's not a notability freebie in the absence of adequate
reliable source coverage. But the sourcing here isn't demonstrating that she's more notable than the norm, either — it comprises just one verification of the initial election results, some obituaries and one article about a piece of municipal infrastructure being named after her following her death — sources which are no different than any mayor of anywhere could always show. To be considered notable enough for a Wikipedia article, a mayor of a city of just 39K needs to be shown as significantly more notable than most other mayors of most other cities of 39K — but that's not what these sources are demonstrating.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Another moronic argument. Nobody has suggested giving her a "freebie". She satisfies the GNG. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 00:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Every single mayor of anywhere would always clear GNG if all you had to do was show a couple of pieces of local coverage — yet Wikipedia does not consider all mayors to be automatically notable just for being mayors per se. The key to making a mayor notable enough for a Wikipedia article is not "coverage of her exists", because coverage always exists of all mayors — it's "significantly more coverage of her exists than most other mayors could also show". Which is not what's in evidence here. Bearcat ( talk) 15:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- Nor is there a "deletion freebie": this post indicates as per WP:NEXIST that it doesn't try to assess notability; and the post ignores potential merge targets. Unscintillating ( talk) 01:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- There is no population requirement in the GNG. --
RAN (
talk)
01:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Nobody said there was a population requirement in the GNG per se. But what there is, is a rule that there are certain classes of people who cannot be deemed to pass GNG just because a smattering of purely local coverage of them exists in their local media. Owners of independent non-chain local retail stores and restaurants would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; every mayor and every city councillor in any no-horse village (and non-winning candidates for those positions, too) would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; high school football players would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; presidents of church bake sale committees would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; and even I would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage. If a person does not pass any of our subject-specific inclusion tests, but instead you're shooting for "notable because media coverage exists", then what's required to actually get them into Wikipedia is significantly more media coverage than their equivalents in every other city could also show, demonstrating that they're significantly more notable than the norm for thelr level of prominence. Bearcat ( talk) 15:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep per above comments. WP:NPOL does not say that the coverage for local politicians needs to be international or national, just significant. WP:AUD is a criteria for WP:NORG, not WP:NPOL. There will of course be very notable political figures who don't receive national coverage. Seraphim System ( talk) 21:56, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Sandstein 22:45, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Lizette Parker
- Lizette Parker ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
fails notability WP:NPOL, only reliable sources are obituaries in local newspaper. Rusf10 ( talk) 18:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - First African woman mayor of a sizeable municipality well researched and added to by other editors, why can people just nominate articles for deletion just because they feel like it? It is the same swat team of deletionists backing each otbers arguements from article to article, you can see that here from the list of Mayors of Teaneck on to the actial mayors' pages. It is extremely time consuming to keep answering to these people who have total free range to keep nominatng things for deletion until the cows come home. Masterknighted ( talk) 18:55, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- she was first African-american mayor of the county, not the country, not even the state, not notable.-- Rusf10 ( talk) 18:59, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete Teanech is not a "sizable municipality" it is one of hundreds of mid-sized communities in New Jersey and in the greater New York City area. We would need indepth coverage to show notability, which is lacking here. At least the article does not say she was the first "African-American mayor" of Teaneck, it says she was the first "African-American woman mayor" of Teaneck. Nor does it assert she was the first African-American who was a mayor in Bergen County, New Jersey, no there also the first African-American woman mayor. Mia Love being the first African-American woman mayor in the state of Utah for example (I list her because she is the only holder of a state-wide title of this type) might be enough for notability, but Parker's claim is not. For the record, since Mrs. Love is a member of congress, her previous service as mayor and as the first African-American elected official in all of Utah County are not material to her being notable. She is also one of a short list of people who received enough coverage as a congressional candidate that she was clearly notable, even after her first race that she lost. In the case of Teaneck with the inordinate amount of people on the list of people from Teaneck, it really does feel like there has been an unjustified campaign to create articles on people from that community which undermines the broad, world-wide coverage nature of Wikipedia. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:14, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Firsts are for the Guinness Book of World Records, WP:Notability only requires that "a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Maybe they get that coverage for being the first of something, maybe not, but we do not have articles only on the first, or biggest, or the most. -- RAN ( talk) 05:05, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep See argument at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey. --
RAN (
talk)
19:08, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- This argument totally ignores the fact that we require above routine coveage for mayors to be notable, especially of places with less than 50,000 people. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:20, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- WP:POL is for people that do not meet the GNG requirement but deserve an article, she meets the GNG standard. --
RAN (
talk)
14:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Every single person in politics who fails NPOL could always still claim to pass GNG anyway, if "a couple of pieces of purely local coverage exist" were all it took to exempt them from having to pass NPOL just because they had "passed GNG" instead. We would have to keep an article about every single mayor of anywhere, every single city or town councillor anywhere, every single school board trustee anywhere, every single non-winning candidate for any office anywhere, and on and so forth, if "a few pieces of local media coverage exist" was in and of itself enough to hand them a GNG pass despite failing NPOL. But we don't: the rule is that if they don't pass NPOL, then they have to be demonstrated as significantly more notable than the norm for their level of prominence (significantly more notable than most other mayors, significantly more notable than most other non-winning political candidates, etc.) before they actually clear GNG. Bearcat ( talk) 16:44, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- WP:POL is for people that do not meet the GNG requirement but deserve an article, she meets the GNG standard. --
RAN (
talk)
14:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Comment all the coverage is routine. The only article on her election is a local article from the Bergen paper which almost certainly would run an article on someone being elected no matter who they were. Her election was not even enough to cause coverage in New Jersey wide papers, let alone other papers in the metro-area she was in. On the other hand, there is a little more coverage of her death, but this is the type of straight news coverage that comes when a public office holder dies in office, and is still not enough to cause an article on her to avoid the not news rules. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:18, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Coverage is coverage, that is what defines notability. I really do not know what "routine" coverage is, or what the converse would be of "extraordinary coverage".
The Ghits are large including New York television and New York newspapers. Titles include "Lizette Parker, groundbreaking mayor of Teaneck, dies at 44" and "History-making N.J mayor remembered at funeral". --
RAN (
talk)
05:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- No, not all coverage is created equal when it comes to passing
WP:GNG — there are certain kinds of coverage that absolutely any mayor of any town or city always receives in their local media: election-night "who won" summaries, obituaries, things in the city getting named after them after their death, and on and so forth. When it comes to mayors, the difference between "routine" coverage that cannot support notability and "extraordinary" coverage that can support notability is this: does the coverage just represent exactly what any mayor of anywhere could always show, or is it going above and beyond what any mayor of anywhere could always show?
Bearcat (
talk)
22:30, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- "Coverage is coverage" is wrong. The standard is significant coverage. If all coverage was equal, many high school quarterbacks or local police department spokesmen would become notable because they get mentioned often..... Niteshift36 ( talk) 14:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- No, not all coverage is created equal when it comes to passing
WP:GNG — there are certain kinds of coverage that absolutely any mayor of any town or city always receives in their local media: election-night "who won" summaries, obituaries, things in the city getting named after them after their death, and on and so forth. When it comes to mayors, the difference between "routine" coverage that cannot support notability and "extraordinary" coverage that can support notability is this: does the coverage just represent exactly what any mayor of anywhere could always show, or is it going above and beyond what any mayor of anywhere could always show?
Bearcat (
talk)
22:30, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Coverage is coverage, that is what defines notability. I really do not know what "routine" coverage is, or what the converse would be of "extraordinary coverage".
The Ghits are large including New York television and New York newspapers. Titles include "Lizette Parker, groundbreaking mayor of Teaneck, dies at 44" and "History-making N.J mayor remembered at funeral". --
RAN (
talk)
05:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Parker was the first African-American woman mayor of a vicinity in Bergen County. [1]— Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterknighted ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 09 December 2017 (UTC)
- Being the first member of an underrepresented minority group to hold an otherwise non-notable political office is not an inclusion freebie that automatically makes a person more notable than all of her non-minority predecessors in the same position. If a town isn't large enough that its mayors would all automatically qualify for articles because mayor, then neither her gender nor her racial background make her a special case in the absence of nationalized coverage about the distinction. Bearcat ( talk) 22:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
References
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
- delete John Lambert argues the case well. Claims to notability are insufficient. LibStar ( talk) 04:24, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Teaneck is noted for its racial diversity and diversity of its public officials. On a side note one of the vicinity's most noted residents is Ahmed Zayat owner of one of history's most famous multi-cultural horses tbe Egyptian Jewish triple crown winner American Pharoah. Take a look at the list of many notable people who have called Teaneck home and see that it is a unique town whose diversity is worth noting. Masterknighted ( talk) 04:54, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete. NN mayor. There is no assertion of notability in the article. There are refs but they substantiate that she lived a very humdrum life. Szzuk ( talk) 16:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep The nom is mistaken, unless one considers the New York Post [1], WPIX [2], The Root [3], and WABC-TV [4]—which carried a report from the Associated Press—"local newspaper[s]". — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 16:48, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
- Besides being local, all these sources (and all except one in the article) are basically obituaries. You'd think she'd get some coverage while she was still alive.--
Rusf10 (
talk)
18:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- You're either misinformed or (more likely) lying. The Root is national, and the Associated Press is an international wire service. And New York City media doesn't routinely cover small-town New Jersey news, so whether the New York media is "local" is questionable. Face it, you're wrong about this article. — Malik Shabazz Talk
- Besides being local, all these sources (and all except one in the article) are basically obituaries. You'd think she'd get some coverage while she was still alive.--
Rusf10 (
talk)
18:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
/ Stalk 00:05, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Dude, don't call me a liar. FACT #1: All of your sources are nothing more than obituaries. FACT #2: The Root may be national, but not well-known, besides they wrote little more than a few sentences. FACT #3: The AP article refers to her as "a 44-year-old New Jersey mayor" in the opening sentence, hardly sounds notable to me.-- Rusf10 ( talk) 00:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep Article has sufficient sources. GNG includes local sources and hum-drum sources. Unscintillating ( talk) 18:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Also, routine coverage is coverage, and run-of-the-mill coverage is coverage. Unscintillating ( talk) 01:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- That's a part you often get wrong. It's not a question of coverage, it's a question of significant coverage. All coverage isn't equal. Niteshift36 ( talk) 14:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete. Merely having a job and run of the mill coverage doesn't pass GNG. Niteshift36 ( talk) 20:13, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep - Parker is the first female African-American mayor of ANY community in New Jersey's most populous county, Bergen County. That's an achievement that was rightly honored/noted by the media and included in any list of African-American or New Jersey firsts. She justifiably deserves to be recognized here on Wikipedia as well, as her place in history is no less important than the first Muslim, Jewish, or female individuals to become mayor in Teaneck or Bergen County. Scanlan ( talk) 03:25, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- See, this is where I strongly disagree. Notability should not be determined by race or gender (or both). She is the first African-American mayor of a county (in a town that doesn't even directly elect the mayor). As I and others stated before, she is neither the first female nor first African-american mayor in county (and certainly not in the state). Can somebody please tell me who the first african-american female mayor in New Jersey was? I ask this because I honestly don't know and I doubt we have an article on her (we should and she certainly would be more notable).--
Rusf10 (
talk)
04:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Being "first" isn't as notable as we try to make it sound sometimes. Who was the first mayor over 6 feet tall? Or the first one under 150 pounds? Niteshift36 ( talk) 17:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- It is none of our business why reliable sources cover a subject. We only require, at WP:GNG, that "a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Why they cover a topic is their business. -- RAN ( talk) 19:56, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- See, this is where I strongly disagree. Notability should not be determined by race or gender (or both). She is the first African-American mayor of a county (in a town that doesn't even directly elect the mayor). As I and others stated before, she is neither the first female nor first African-american mayor in county (and certainly not in the state). Can somebody please tell me who the first african-american female mayor in New Jersey was? I ask this because I honestly don't know and I doubt we have an article on her (we should and she certainly would be more notable).--
Rusf10 (
talk)
04:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Now that you have asked the question, as far as I can see from the search engine results that what comes up is Lizette Parker being mentioned. It seems that no one has deemed this statistic important enough to list; she just might have been the first black woman mayor of any sizeable municipality in the Garden State but of course we would need a source to clearly state that. Masterknighted ( talk) 16:35, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- That statement is already covered by 4 sources in the lede. --
RAN (
talk)
19:58, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Those sources help establish believe that she was the first African American woman mayor of a city in Bergen County but not the state in its totality Masterknighted ( talk) 20:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- That statement is already covered by 4 sources in the lede. --
RAN (
talk)
19:58, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Delete. Teaneck is not large enough that its mayors would be automatically notable just for being mayors, and being a place's first woman or first African-American (or first African-American woman) mayor is not an automatic notability boost either. If she'd been the first African-American women to serve as a mayor anywhere in the entire United States, then there'd be a notability case — but if she's merely the first in her own city or county, then that's not a notability freebie in the absence of adequate
reliable source coverage. But the sourcing here isn't demonstrating that she's more notable than the norm, either — it comprises just one verification of the initial election results, some obituaries and one article about a piece of municipal infrastructure being named after her following her death — sources which are no different than any mayor of anywhere could always show. To be considered notable enough for a Wikipedia article, a mayor of a city of just 39K needs to be shown as significantly more notable than most other mayors of most other cities of 39K — but that's not what these sources are demonstrating.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
- Another moronic argument. Nobody has suggested giving her a "freebie". She satisfies the GNG. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 00:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Every single mayor of anywhere would always clear GNG if all you had to do was show a couple of pieces of local coverage — yet Wikipedia does not consider all mayors to be automatically notable just for being mayors per se. The key to making a mayor notable enough for a Wikipedia article is not "coverage of her exists", because coverage always exists of all mayors — it's "significantly more coverage of her exists than most other mayors could also show". Which is not what's in evidence here. Bearcat ( talk) 15:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- Nor is there a "deletion freebie": this post indicates as per WP:NEXIST that it doesn't try to assess notability; and the post ignores potential merge targets. Unscintillating ( talk) 01:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- There is no population requirement in the GNG. --
RAN (
talk)
01:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- Nobody said there was a population requirement in the GNG per se. But what there is, is a rule that there are certain classes of people who cannot be deemed to pass GNG just because a smattering of purely local coverage of them exists in their local media. Owners of independent non-chain local retail stores and restaurants would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; every mayor and every city councillor in any no-horse village (and non-winning candidates for those positions, too) would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; high school football players would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; presidents of church bake sale committees would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage; and even I would clear GNG if all you had to do was show a few pieces of local coverage. If a person does not pass any of our subject-specific inclusion tests, but instead you're shooting for "notable because media coverage exists", then what's required to actually get them into Wikipedia is significantly more media coverage than their equivalents in every other city could also show, demonstrating that they're significantly more notable than the norm for thelr level of prominence. Bearcat ( talk) 15:27, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- Keep per above comments. WP:NPOL does not say that the coverage for local politicians needs to be international or national, just significant. WP:AUD is a criteria for WP:NORG, not WP:NPOL. There will of course be very notable political figures who don't receive national coverage. Seraphim System ( talk) 21:56, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.