- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 17:30, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
List of microbreweries
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- List of microbreweries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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I am not convinced by arguments in the prior AfD. Bottom line is there are hundreds of thousands of microbreweries in the world, they are small businesses, and while we are NOTPAPER, gigantic lists like this serve no purpose that categories don't do better. But even if we say that size is not a problem, there are other issues: 1) the lead states this is a list of notable microbreweries, but it contains entries of dubious notability - red links, etc. Most entries there are not referenced. From WP:NORG, most microbreweries are too small to be notable anyway. If this list would be a complete list of microbreweries, it would be 90% red links or rather no links, as it would just list non-notable companies. If it was to list notable ones only this requires substantial effort to vet entries in it. Just looking at a few sample companies listed in it I have serious doubts half of them if not more meet WP:NORG. Some lists, even big ones, make sense. Lists of small businesses do not (which is why we have List of restaurant chains but not List of restaurants (it is just a redirect to the former), and why List of breweries is fine, but not a list of microbreweries. PS. The way to discuss craft brews in encyclopedic context, IMHO, is through articles on individual breweries that pass NORG through the virtue of coverage/awards, and through national-level overview articles like Craft beer in South Korea. Seriously, lists should be useful - what is the usefulness of such lists of small businesses? Particularly in alcohol business, which means no Internet sales and in 99% cases, local customers only? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 11:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 11:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 11:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep - this is TOUGH. For one, a category serves the same purpose as this article, but that could be said for a lot of articles. I ran into List of Venezuelans recently (and this is not anti-Venezuela, there are like articles for many other nationalities and topics) and I found it absurd. But at the same time, I think the norm on WP is to have lists. As long as each entry has its own WP article, I don't see any issue with keeping a list of 'notable' microbreweries. I'm not going to rm the redlinks since that often gets pushback, but I think on a list like this, it only makes sense to do so. Anyway, I don't have an issue with keeping the list of notable microbreweries, keeping in mind this should not become a list of redlinks and we should not ignore rules on notability. I understand your argument... and yes, there should be a clearly defined definition to be on this list. But I'm not convinced it should be deleted. sorry if that didn't make sense. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 14:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. The list can essentially break down into other list pages, such as List of breweries in the United States, and other countries. Those are breweries rather than microbreweries, but in this case, I don't think that matters. The difference between the two terms relates to amount they produce, and so in reality, there are far more microbreweries out there than non-micros. I'd rather see List of breweries in the United States, which has other lists like List of breweries in California, etc., rather than this page, which more or less serves as a parent cat. Also, per WP:WTAF, I don't like to include redlinks or nonexistent pages in lists like this, but what's especially weird about this page is that the fact that this is a list about necessarily small businesses, there's a bit of a contradiction. – Broccoli & Coffee ( Oh hai) 17:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. The rationales presented by the nom are less than convincing. AfD is not for cleanup. Getting rid of redlinked and unlinked entries is a simple task. If the nom has an issue with the notability of entries with articles, nominate them for deletion. As for usefulness, there is no Category:Microbreweries, only Category:Breweries. Though that could be remedied, that in no way precludes having a list as well. What this list does need is more info, e.g. location, year of establishment, defunctness/"functness", etc. to really justify its existence. Again an issue of cleanup, not deletion. Clarityfiend ( talk) 18:40, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:CLN and of course clean up to remove the non-notable entries. UnitedStatesian ( talk) 23:09, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty ( talk) 16:56, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete – An unstainable list that is extremely subject to WP:POV. As of a Google search, as shown here [1] there were over 7,000 new establishments generated just here in the United States in 2018. Which ones make this list in Wikipedia and which ones do not is subject to a bias consensus. The ones that are notable will be included here as separate articles. ShoesssS Talk 17:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment The list doesn't seek to include every microbrewery, just the notable ones. I've deleted the redlinked and unlinked entries and added some info. Clarityfiend ( talk) 19:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep, meets WP:LISTN, numerous books, journals that discuss these. ps. it might be nice if this was in the form of a sortable table so that, for example, wikireaders from Scotland can readily find the mbs situated in their country. Coolabahapple ( talk) 21:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep – This is a useful list, and despite the nominator's thoughtful write-up, I don't see any good reason to delete it. What I'm trying to decide is if only microbreweries that have their own Wikipedia articles should be listed here. I think it would be okay if other breweries were also included, if each one had a reliable third-party reference to prove that it actually exists. — Mudwater ( Talk) 23:32, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep – but restrict the list to microbreweries that are notable by wikipedia standards - i.e have articles. If you want to add others start by writing the article. -- Bduke ( talk) 07:43, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment – About the question of which breweries should be included in the list, in the event that it's decided that the page should be kept, there is now a separate discussion, at Talk:List of microbreweries#Criteria for inclusion. — Mudwater ( Talk) 22:01, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep That many blue links, it aids in navigation, so perfectly valid list article. Dream Focus 15:46, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep The topic passes WP:LISTN This is a worthwhile and useful list for readers. Makes navigating the encyclopaedia easier. WP:Not paper The prior AFD and its reasoning and result should have settled this issue. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 19:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per all the above. None of the delete's above really nail a valid delete reason. Deletion isn't a solution for something that is large and could continuously grow. Dusti *Let's talk!* 05:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 17:30, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
List of microbreweries
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of microbreweries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I am not convinced by arguments in the prior AfD. Bottom line is there are hundreds of thousands of microbreweries in the world, they are small businesses, and while we are NOTPAPER, gigantic lists like this serve no purpose that categories don't do better. But even if we say that size is not a problem, there are other issues: 1) the lead states this is a list of notable microbreweries, but it contains entries of dubious notability - red links, etc. Most entries there are not referenced. From WP:NORG, most microbreweries are too small to be notable anyway. If this list would be a complete list of microbreweries, it would be 90% red links or rather no links, as it would just list non-notable companies. If it was to list notable ones only this requires substantial effort to vet entries in it. Just looking at a few sample companies listed in it I have serious doubts half of them if not more meet WP:NORG. Some lists, even big ones, make sense. Lists of small businesses do not (which is why we have List of restaurant chains but not List of restaurants (it is just a redirect to the former), and why List of breweries is fine, but not a list of microbreweries. PS. The way to discuss craft brews in encyclopedic context, IMHO, is through articles on individual breweries that pass NORG through the virtue of coverage/awards, and through national-level overview articles like Craft beer in South Korea. Seriously, lists should be useful - what is the usefulness of such lists of small businesses? Particularly in alcohol business, which means no Internet sales and in 99% cases, local customers only? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 11:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 11:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 11:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep - this is TOUGH. For one, a category serves the same purpose as this article, but that could be said for a lot of articles. I ran into List of Venezuelans recently (and this is not anti-Venezuela, there are like articles for many other nationalities and topics) and I found it absurd. But at the same time, I think the norm on WP is to have lists. As long as each entry has its own WP article, I don't see any issue with keeping a list of 'notable' microbreweries. I'm not going to rm the redlinks since that often gets pushback, but I think on a list like this, it only makes sense to do so. Anyway, I don't have an issue with keeping the list of notable microbreweries, keeping in mind this should not become a list of redlinks and we should not ignore rules on notability. I understand your argument... and yes, there should be a clearly defined definition to be on this list. But I'm not convinced it should be deleted. sorry if that didn't make sense. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 14:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. The list can essentially break down into other list pages, such as List of breweries in the United States, and other countries. Those are breweries rather than microbreweries, but in this case, I don't think that matters. The difference between the two terms relates to amount they produce, and so in reality, there are far more microbreweries out there than non-micros. I'd rather see List of breweries in the United States, which has other lists like List of breweries in California, etc., rather than this page, which more or less serves as a parent cat. Also, per WP:WTAF, I don't like to include redlinks or nonexistent pages in lists like this, but what's especially weird about this page is that the fact that this is a list about necessarily small businesses, there's a bit of a contradiction. – Broccoli & Coffee ( Oh hai) 17:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. The rationales presented by the nom are less than convincing. AfD is not for cleanup. Getting rid of redlinked and unlinked entries is a simple task. If the nom has an issue with the notability of entries with articles, nominate them for deletion. As for usefulness, there is no Category:Microbreweries, only Category:Breweries. Though that could be remedied, that in no way precludes having a list as well. What this list does need is more info, e.g. location, year of establishment, defunctness/"functness", etc. to really justify its existence. Again an issue of cleanup, not deletion. Clarityfiend ( talk) 18:40, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:CLN and of course clean up to remove the non-notable entries. UnitedStatesian ( talk) 23:09, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty ( talk) 16:56, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete – An unstainable list that is extremely subject to WP:POV. As of a Google search, as shown here [1] there were over 7,000 new establishments generated just here in the United States in 2018. Which ones make this list in Wikipedia and which ones do not is subject to a bias consensus. The ones that are notable will be included here as separate articles. ShoesssS Talk 17:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment The list doesn't seek to include every microbrewery, just the notable ones. I've deleted the redlinked and unlinked entries and added some info. Clarityfiend ( talk) 19:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep, meets WP:LISTN, numerous books, journals that discuss these. ps. it might be nice if this was in the form of a sortable table so that, for example, wikireaders from Scotland can readily find the mbs situated in their country. Coolabahapple ( talk) 21:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep – This is a useful list, and despite the nominator's thoughtful write-up, I don't see any good reason to delete it. What I'm trying to decide is if only microbreweries that have their own Wikipedia articles should be listed here. I think it would be okay if other breweries were also included, if each one had a reliable third-party reference to prove that it actually exists. — Mudwater ( Talk) 23:32, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep – but restrict the list to microbreweries that are notable by wikipedia standards - i.e have articles. If you want to add others start by writing the article. -- Bduke ( talk) 07:43, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment – About the question of which breweries should be included in the list, in the event that it's decided that the page should be kept, there is now a separate discussion, at Talk:List of microbreweries#Criteria for inclusion. — Mudwater ( Talk) 22:01, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep That many blue links, it aids in navigation, so perfectly valid list article. Dream Focus 15:46, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep The topic passes WP:LISTN This is a worthwhile and useful list for readers. Makes navigating the encyclopaedia easier. WP:Not paper The prior AFD and its reasoning and result should have settled this issue. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 19:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per all the above. None of the delete's above really nail a valid delete reason. Deletion isn't a solution for something that is large and could continuously grow. Dusti *Let's talk!* 05:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.