The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:46, 13 December 2021 (UTC) reply

List of college football coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Pure trivia, an intersection that is not covered in independent sources. It's quite usual to name stadiums after long-time coaches, and sometimes that naming is done before they're retired, but that doesn't warrant an article. Reywas92 ^Talk 05:06, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Reywas92 ^Talk 05:06, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete per nom and WP:NLIST. Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete. While I admittedly find this list to be an interesting piece of trivia, I'm afraid that it just isn't notable enough to be included on Wikipedia. I did a Google search on the topic of college football stadiums being named after coaches, and mainly got results which talk about that happening after the coach was no longer coaching for that college. This article's purpose is to show instances of the opposite scenario, where stadiums are named after coaches during a particular coach's tenure with that college, but that appears to be a much rarer scenario, and I don't see enough discussion of it in reliable, secondary sources for it to meet the notability guidelines. -- Zander251 ( talk) 05:38, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 05:42, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 05:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 05:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Comment I fix the error someone made so the 14 entries load up properly now. I see there is a List of American football stadiums by capacity, List of current National Football League stadiums, Chronology of home stadiums for current National Football League teams, and many other stadium lists. Perhaps a column somewhere could be added to include who it was named after, and an asterisk added to the names of those who were also a coach who played there. There is news coverage on how stadiums got their names. https://thelistwire.usatoday.com/lists/how-top-college-football-stadiums-got-their-names-ncaa-2021/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/how-famous-college-football-stadiums-got-their-names/ss-AANSsPm#image=2 so be something notable to list somewhere. Dream Focus 06:31, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Keep Shocked that this long-standing article with a rich editing history has been nominated. As when the PROD was contested, I quote user:Normal Op 7:47, from April 29, 2020‎:Removed PROD. Every entry is notable enough to have its own article. See also https://mvsusports.com/coaches.aspx?rc=322: "and so Totten became one of a handful of coaches to preside in a stadium named after him". in addition, This article also covers the topic. Sources could be updated as an editing issue as many links are expired, but that's an editing issue not a deletion issue. Surpasses WP:LISTN-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 13:22, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete, though it is a "phenomenon" that exists, it fails WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Geschichte ( talk) 13:25, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
  • How specifically? Just saying "it fails" means nothing. What criteria or measurement are you using to get to that position? Wikipedia is also not about WP:NOTHING.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 14:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• delete Sorry, but it's a trivial intersection. Mangoe ( talk) 16:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Using the deletion argument "it's trivia" (repeated numerous times, including the original deletion rationale) is listed in Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, specifically as being too similar to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. To quote: "Such claims require an explanation of which policy the content fails and explanation of why that policy applies as the rationale for deletion." What is the policy or rationale?-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
    • We have routinely deleted trivial intersections. Mangoe ( talk) 06:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete. I can find no independent reliable sources to suggest this is a notable intersection so fails WP:NLIST. _wjemather ^{please leave a message...} 16:33, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
  • Several have already been supplied in this discussion. Do you not "find them" or do you not agree that those presented meet the standard? The statment seems like you've not reviewed the data that is already been provided.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 17:16, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
    • None of the sources presented discuss this group as a set. The closest we get is a couple of isolated snippets of trivia; these do not provide the required depth of coverage to establish notability of the intersection. The other sources presented discuss individual cases in isolation (but again as snippets of trivia), or the general topic of "how stadia got their name". Nothing I have seen directly discusses "coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves", or even "stadia that have been coached in by the person they were named after", and this is what is required for NLIST. _wjemather ^{please leave a message...} 17:43, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
      • You mean besides the one in USA Today mentioned above? In 2009, Snyder returned to the sidelines and became one of only five coaches in FBS history to coach at the stadium that bears his name. The other four are Bear Bryant (Alabama), Amos Alonzo Stagg (Chicago), Shug Jordan (Auburn) and LaVell Edwards (BYU).  ?? Or maybe besides the other one from above How every SEC football stadium got its name Not many coaches get to coach in their namesake venue, but Paul “Bear” Bryant is not your average coach. ... In 1975, the state legislature agreed to add Byrant’s name to the stadium. Bryant’s coaching career ended in 1982, meaning he coached in the stadium “bearing” his name for seven seasons. Besides those two?-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 19:47, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
        • It's basically a footnote in List of NCAA Division I FBS football stadiums then, perhaps as suggested above to include a column for a namesake. I see no basis for a stand-alone article for this trivia, even if USA Today named them in a sentence. I know most of these aren't FBS, but this cross-categorization has no meaning whatsoever. Reywas92 ^Talk 20:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
          • Let me ask again: Any reason besides your opinion is that it's "trivia" ? Perhaps something based on a policy or guideline would be nice.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
            • Let me ask again: any reason besides your opinion that this is "long-standing" and with a "rich editing history"? This is a non-notable cross-categorization of "college football coach", "has a stadium named after them", and "coached after the naming occurred", and passing mentions of those does not make "the intersection of those categories is in some way a culturally significant phenomenon". Reywas92 ^Talk 20:57, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
              • I'll of course answer--it's the first time you have asked. I hope for the same from you. The rich history of the editing of the article shows the number of edits going back to December 1, 2013. over 9 years. While I started the article, it has had involvement from numerous editors directly and a number of other articles link to this page. The article was nominated for a PROD by Uuser:KingSkyLord and was "de-proded" by Normal Op back on 29 Apr 2020, over a year ago. The editor that issued the PROD failed to submit it to AFD. Now while those aren't necessarily reasons to keep, it does show that the article has been reviewed and patrolled by numerous editors over an extended period of time. To me, that means it is long-standaing and has a rich editing history. But the reason to keep the list is because the sources provided and quoted above show a clear pass of WP:LISTN because a) a list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources and b) The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 22:17, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
        • USA Today does nothing more than list 5 FBS coaches (i.e. barely a third of the coaches in this list article) in the context of discussing one individual, and SdS discusses one individual. Neither source discuss the intersection of this list in any depth. _wjemather ^{please leave a message...} 21:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
          • According to WP:LISTN, that's more than enough.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 22:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
            • One source mentions a group of "FBS coaches" who have coached in a stadium named after them (or should that be bearing their name); others mention the intersection in context of "all (football) coaches". There is no mention of the intersection with "all college football coaches", which is what this list is concerned with. As an aside, should any mentions of this intersection be found, we require more than such trivial passing mentions to be able to say the intersection is sufficiently notable to warrant an article/list. Finally, as Reywas92 rightly points out above, this intersection also fails WP:NOT (as a non-notable cross-categorization). _wjemather ^{please leave a message...} 23:27, 6 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete Pure listcruft. ~ EDDY ^{( talk/ contribs)}~ 00:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete. Fails WP:LISTN. Based on the sources provided above by User:Dream Focus, a list memorializing the namesakes of notable football stadia might be supportable (and interesting/useful), but the focus here strikes me as unnecessarily narrow. Cbl62 ( talk) 02:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

Maybe add a "namesake" column (or something similar) to List of American football stadiums by capacity. Cbl62 ( talk) 02:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

It looks like that's where the discussion is going, so inclusion of the information would be a good move.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 17:17, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

• Delete a List of college football stadiums named after coaches might be discussed enough, this detail is too much of a trivial intersection. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 02:42, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete extremely esoteric and trivial scope. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 05:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

• Delete per WP:LISTN: “ One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been.” The sources provided so far have only been passing mentions/one sentence worth of “coverage”: thus also failing WP:GNG. WikiJoeB ( talk) 12:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

  Comment. The “rich history” of editing history of an article is not a reason to keep it. In past AfDs, we have deleted long-standing articles with numerous edits made to them. WikiJoeB ( talk) 12:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

  I agree the "rich history" comment of mine is not (by itself at least) a reason to keep, which I stated above. It does show that there has been peer review over time, and that's something that should be considered.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 14:15, 7 December 2021 (UTC) reply

• Userfy/projectify or refactor. The deletion arguments noting the scant sourcing supporting the notability of this subject as narrowly drawn are strong. What if we refactor this article to be something like List of college football stadiums named after coaches, which is a simpler intesection of variables and more likely to find broad sourcing?. Then those coaches who coached in a stadium named after them could be noted somewhere within that article. Otherwise, I would support userfying this article to Paulmcdonald's user space or projectifying it to WikiProject College football as it could be a useful resource for building articles about the relevant stadiums and coaches. Jweiss11 ( talk) 17:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete: Ugh. Not only absurdly trivial, but fails both the GNG and LISTN -- as others have stated, there's just no coverage out there discussing this as a concept. Nor is the "rich history" argument something I want to hear from an admin who's spent as much time at AfD over the years as Paul McDonald has -- it's profoundly tone-deaf, and we would have unkind things to say to a newbie who used it. Ravenswing 18:13, 8 December 2021 (UTC) reply
• Delete The list fails WP:LISTN. The "rich history" argument is not valid if the content is trivial and does not have encyclopedic value. Whoever tries to defend his unpopular line of reasoning should stop making pointy comments. LSGH ( talk) ( contributions) 11:50, 9 December 2021 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.