- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. ✗ plicit 03:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
List of black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees
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- List of black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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This article doesn't appear to meet Wikipedia's criteria for stand-alone lists, and I've nominated it for deletion. I suggest we create a page that compiles a list of all Primetime Emmy winners and nominees, or perhaps just nominees, as there does not appear to be one that includes all nominees. Does anyone have a legitimate reason for creating separate lists? I think the information would be better off aggregated in one cohesive article. There are multiple other articles that have this issue, but I suppose this one just caught my attention. If anyone would care to argue otherwise, that would be great. GrendelNightmares ( talk) 15:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Completing nomination on behalf of nominator--above text is copied from article talk page. I have no opinion of my own at this time. @ GrendelNightmares: For future AfD nominations, please fully follow the instructions at WP:AFDHOWTO. Thank you. -- Finngall talk 01:12, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- Finngall talk 01:13, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. -- Finngall talk 01:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 02:58, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 01:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Black winners and nominees have obviously been treated as a group by reliable sources (e.g. Essence), and it's been a topic of much discussion in recent years. Can the nominator expand on why they feel the topic fails WP:NLIST? pburka ( talk) 03:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete I am sure this passes WP:NLIST to some degree (probably not through the most reputable sources) but I think it is a tricky cross-categorisation. My !vote is based on the inherent WP:BLP issues with this. Most sources will probably not have an exhaustive list of "black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees" so requires editors to do some compiling of their own. Editors will inevitably do some WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to determine who is "black". I know this might seem silly or like I am a pedant but this is actually a reasonably complex designation (especially for non-Americans). I don't think editors should be the ones to catalogue a living person's ethnicity. Two telling examples currently on the list:
- Rashida Jones - could equally appear on a white or Jewish list (see her WP for her own complex views on her identity).
- Nick Mohammed - His mother was Cyprus-born and his father an Indo-Trinidadian. As far as I can tell this wouldn't fit into the definition of "black" but it is not my place to make that judgement.
- There are many others on the list of ethnically mixed parentage (
Nathalie Emmanuel,
Giancarlo Esposito,
Steven Canals,
Ezra Edelman,
Maya Rudolph etc). You could possibly move this to
List of African-American Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees (which is an easier designation to verify) but where would that leave
Lupita Nyong'o? Ultimately we would need a source confirming a winner/nominee is "black" as well as that they were a winner/nominee and I do not think editors will do that. Then we just end up with
WP:BLP and
WP:V issues.
Vladimir.copic (
talk) 08:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Not to belabour this point too much but I just noticed Trevor Noah is listed who was designated as coloured in South Africa which is/was a different racial category to black and caused him issues as a child of a “black” mother. Shift this to a US context and he is labelled black. Another example of how this list does not make sense. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 23:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete yet another example of political soapbox listcruft that misses the point; trying to arbitrarily divide people into vague “racial” categories when they might have six different equally valid ancestries is outdated and stupid.
Dronebogus (
talk) 14:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- That's basically
WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
pburka (
talk) 14:59, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- I don’t really think so but if you need more specific arguments then it’s unencyclopedic, arbitrary original research and impossible to define well enough to avoid endless arguments. Dronebogus ( talk) 18:26, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- That's basically
WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
pburka (
talk) 14:59, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment I would also suggest including
List of Latin and Hispanic Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees in this which hilariously includes Antonio Banderas and commits many of the same sins.
Vladimir.copic (
talk) 01:22, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- @
Vladimir.copic: I agree, but for the record, Antonio Banderas is Spanish. "Hispanic" includes anyone from Spain or other Spanish-speaking countries. Him being on that list is not an error.
- The list claims to “includes performers born in Latin America and with Latin American descent or heritage.” As far as I can tell being Spanish doesn’t fit this. To be fair this is just funny compared to the more eyebrow-raising placing of the Mexican flag next to American citizens, born in America who happen to have Mexican-American parents. Imagine doing something similar to Americans of European ancestry. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 07:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- @
Vladimir.copic: I agree, but for the record, Antonio Banderas is Spanish. "Hispanic" includes anyone from Spain or other Spanish-speaking countries. Him being on that list is not an error.
- Delete this and similar lists. Whilst it is certainly true that "lifestyle" magazines produce lists of this kind, they also produce lists of "the stars' favorite barbecues" and "six mountain resorts you've never heard of": the publication of a list does not create notability per se. I'm particularly worried about how we specify who's on this list and who isn't. I'm pretty sure we can't go and ask every Primetime Emmy Award winner whether they identify as one group or another racially, and there isn't a standard criterion we can apply. I'm grateful to
Vladimir.copic for his comments above, which put my somewhat inchoate concerns far more eloquently than I could manage myself!
RomanSpa (
talk) 12:53, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- It's far more than the publications you dismiss as "lifestyle" magazines. This topic has been covered by
Hollywood Reporter,
Variety,
CNN,
LA Times, and
NY Times. There's no shortage of reliable sources which could be used to satisfy
WP:V.
pburka (
talk) 16:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Most of those would appear to be about individual black winners or #emmyssowhite which is a wholly different topic than just “black Emmy winners”. So I’d say it still doesn’t pass verifiability standards since individual notability =/= collective notability.
Dronebogus (
talk) 16:54, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I also think that a dedicated page about EmmysSoWhite or Racial bias in Emmy Awards would be more useful and would be able to provide more context than a simple list. But I'm also not convinced that this list fails WP:LISTN or WP:V. pburka ( talk) 17:03, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I definitely support one or both of the first two, but generally speaking I generally don’t think lists can be good articles if they aren’t about plain, objective information like “tallest buildings” or “people with dwarfism”.
Dronebogus (
talk) 17:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly you've never been involved in discussions about whether the
CN Tower is a building or whether
One WTC's spire counts towards its height. The objective criteria for this list is simple: have reliable sources described the people as "Black Primetime Emmy Award winners (or nominees)"?
pburka (
talk) 17:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- there’s a world of difference between “+/- spire” (just list it off to the side in another column) and whether or not someone gets to be considered a “black person”, reliable sourcing or no. 3rd parties shouldn’t get to arbitrate people’s identities, and self-identification isn’t objective enough to use as the basis for this article. Dronebogus ( talk) 17:43, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Simply untrue to say this is an objective criteria. Just read the intro to the Black People article for confirmation. This page even includes a weird WP:OR definition of what black means for the purposes of this list which is just wrong. Currently the list seems to follow some kind of Americanised one-drop rule for determining blackness. See my above comment about Trevor Noah and other for why this is absurd and has WP:GLOBAL issues. If we just use sources that actually describe someone specifically as a “Black Primetime Emmy Award winner or nominee” (Not African, African-American, Afro-Cuban etc) it will just be a weird hodgepodge of names happening to have been described in this very specific way. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 01:02, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly you've never been involved in discussions about whether the
CN Tower is a building or whether
One WTC's spire counts towards its height. The objective criteria for this list is simple: have reliable sources described the people as "Black Primetime Emmy Award winners (or nominees)"?
pburka (
talk) 17:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Most of those would appear to be about individual black winners or #emmyssowhite which is a wholly different topic than just “black Emmy winners”. So I’d say it still doesn’t pass verifiability standards since individual notability =/= collective notability.
Dronebogus (
talk) 16:54, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- It's far more than the publications you dismiss as "lifestyle" magazines. This topic has been covered by
Hollywood Reporter,
Variety,
CNN,
LA Times, and
NY Times. There's no shortage of reliable sources which could be used to satisfy
WP:V.
pburka (
talk) 16:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment I'd love to hear from some self-identifying Black Wikipedians about this issue.
Bkatcher (
talk) 12:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think that’s a cool idea, but besides being original research you’re probably just going to get 5 completely different answers from 5 different black Wikipedians (a group I’m not part of). Dronebogus ( talk) 15:57, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. A very tragic cross-categorisation on race. Ajf773 ( talk) 09:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per @ Vladimir.copic. This article is a WP:BLP and WP:OR nightmare there is no way to properly verify and maintain. This sub-topic list of black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees is also an arbitrary creation. One article for all Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees is one thing, but a random-segregated WP:OR list fails WP:V. Newshunter12 ( talk) 23:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. ✗ plicit 03:31, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
List of black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article doesn't appear to meet Wikipedia's criteria for stand-alone lists, and I've nominated it for deletion. I suggest we create a page that compiles a list of all Primetime Emmy winners and nominees, or perhaps just nominees, as there does not appear to be one that includes all nominees. Does anyone have a legitimate reason for creating separate lists? I think the information would be better off aggregated in one cohesive article. There are multiple other articles that have this issue, but I suppose this one just caught my attention. If anyone would care to argue otherwise, that would be great. GrendelNightmares ( talk) 15:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Completing nomination on behalf of nominator--above text is copied from article talk page. I have no opinion of my own at this time. @ GrendelNightmares: For future AfD nominations, please fully follow the instructions at WP:AFDHOWTO. Thank you. -- Finngall talk 01:12, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- Finngall talk 01:13, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. -- Finngall talk 01:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 02:58, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 01:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Black winners and nominees have obviously been treated as a group by reliable sources (e.g. Essence), and it's been a topic of much discussion in recent years. Can the nominator expand on why they feel the topic fails WP:NLIST? pburka ( talk) 03:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete I am sure this passes WP:NLIST to some degree (probably not through the most reputable sources) but I think it is a tricky cross-categorisation. My !vote is based on the inherent WP:BLP issues with this. Most sources will probably not have an exhaustive list of "black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees" so requires editors to do some compiling of their own. Editors will inevitably do some WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to determine who is "black". I know this might seem silly or like I am a pedant but this is actually a reasonably complex designation (especially for non-Americans). I don't think editors should be the ones to catalogue a living person's ethnicity. Two telling examples currently on the list:
- Rashida Jones - could equally appear on a white or Jewish list (see her WP for her own complex views on her identity).
- Nick Mohammed - His mother was Cyprus-born and his father an Indo-Trinidadian. As far as I can tell this wouldn't fit into the definition of "black" but it is not my place to make that judgement.
- There are many others on the list of ethnically mixed parentage (
Nathalie Emmanuel,
Giancarlo Esposito,
Steven Canals,
Ezra Edelman,
Maya Rudolph etc). You could possibly move this to
List of African-American Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees (which is an easier designation to verify) but where would that leave
Lupita Nyong'o? Ultimately we would need a source confirming a winner/nominee is "black" as well as that they were a winner/nominee and I do not think editors will do that. Then we just end up with
WP:BLP and
WP:V issues.
Vladimir.copic (
talk) 08:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Not to belabour this point too much but I just noticed Trevor Noah is listed who was designated as coloured in South Africa which is/was a different racial category to black and caused him issues as a child of a “black” mother. Shift this to a US context and he is labelled black. Another example of how this list does not make sense. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 23:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete yet another example of political soapbox listcruft that misses the point; trying to arbitrarily divide people into vague “racial” categories when they might have six different equally valid ancestries is outdated and stupid.
Dronebogus (
talk) 14:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- That's basically
WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
pburka (
talk) 14:59, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- I don’t really think so but if you need more specific arguments then it’s unencyclopedic, arbitrary original research and impossible to define well enough to avoid endless arguments. Dronebogus ( talk) 18:26, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- That's basically
WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
pburka (
talk) 14:59, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment I would also suggest including
List of Latin and Hispanic Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees in this which hilariously includes Antonio Banderas and commits many of the same sins.
Vladimir.copic (
talk) 01:22, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- @
Vladimir.copic: I agree, but for the record, Antonio Banderas is Spanish. "Hispanic" includes anyone from Spain or other Spanish-speaking countries. Him being on that list is not an error.
- The list claims to “includes performers born in Latin America and with Latin American descent or heritage.” As far as I can tell being Spanish doesn’t fit this. To be fair this is just funny compared to the more eyebrow-raising placing of the Mexican flag next to American citizens, born in America who happen to have Mexican-American parents. Imagine doing something similar to Americans of European ancestry. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 07:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- @
Vladimir.copic: I agree, but for the record, Antonio Banderas is Spanish. "Hispanic" includes anyone from Spain or other Spanish-speaking countries. Him being on that list is not an error.
- Delete this and similar lists. Whilst it is certainly true that "lifestyle" magazines produce lists of this kind, they also produce lists of "the stars' favorite barbecues" and "six mountain resorts you've never heard of": the publication of a list does not create notability per se. I'm particularly worried about how we specify who's on this list and who isn't. I'm pretty sure we can't go and ask every Primetime Emmy Award winner whether they identify as one group or another racially, and there isn't a standard criterion we can apply. I'm grateful to
Vladimir.copic for his comments above, which put my somewhat inchoate concerns far more eloquently than I could manage myself!
RomanSpa (
talk) 12:53, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- It's far more than the publications you dismiss as "lifestyle" magazines. This topic has been covered by
Hollywood Reporter,
Variety,
CNN,
LA Times, and
NY Times. There's no shortage of reliable sources which could be used to satisfy
WP:V.
pburka (
talk) 16:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Most of those would appear to be about individual black winners or #emmyssowhite which is a wholly different topic than just “black Emmy winners”. So I’d say it still doesn’t pass verifiability standards since individual notability =/= collective notability.
Dronebogus (
talk) 16:54, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I also think that a dedicated page about EmmysSoWhite or Racial bias in Emmy Awards would be more useful and would be able to provide more context than a simple list. But I'm also not convinced that this list fails WP:LISTN or WP:V. pburka ( talk) 17:03, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I definitely support one or both of the first two, but generally speaking I generally don’t think lists can be good articles if they aren’t about plain, objective information like “tallest buildings” or “people with dwarfism”.
Dronebogus (
talk) 17:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly you've never been involved in discussions about whether the
CN Tower is a building or whether
One WTC's spire counts towards its height. The objective criteria for this list is simple: have reliable sources described the people as "Black Primetime Emmy Award winners (or nominees)"?
pburka (
talk) 17:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- there’s a world of difference between “+/- spire” (just list it off to the side in another column) and whether or not someone gets to be considered a “black person”, reliable sourcing or no. 3rd parties shouldn’t get to arbitrate people’s identities, and self-identification isn’t objective enough to use as the basis for this article. Dronebogus ( talk) 17:43, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Simply untrue to say this is an objective criteria. Just read the intro to the Black People article for confirmation. This page even includes a weird WP:OR definition of what black means for the purposes of this list which is just wrong. Currently the list seems to follow some kind of Americanised one-drop rule for determining blackness. See my above comment about Trevor Noah and other for why this is absurd and has WP:GLOBAL issues. If we just use sources that actually describe someone specifically as a “Black Primetime Emmy Award winner or nominee” (Not African, African-American, Afro-Cuban etc) it will just be a weird hodgepodge of names happening to have been described in this very specific way. Vladimir.copic ( talk) 01:02, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly you've never been involved in discussions about whether the
CN Tower is a building or whether
One WTC's spire counts towards its height. The objective criteria for this list is simple: have reliable sources described the people as "Black Primetime Emmy Award winners (or nominees)"?
pburka (
talk) 17:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Most of those would appear to be about individual black winners or #emmyssowhite which is a wholly different topic than just “black Emmy winners”. So I’d say it still doesn’t pass verifiability standards since individual notability =/= collective notability.
Dronebogus (
talk) 16:54, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- It's far more than the publications you dismiss as "lifestyle" magazines. This topic has been covered by
Hollywood Reporter,
Variety,
CNN,
LA Times, and
NY Times. There's no shortage of reliable sources which could be used to satisfy
WP:V.
pburka (
talk) 16:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment I'd love to hear from some self-identifying Black Wikipedians about this issue.
Bkatcher (
talk) 12:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think that’s a cool idea, but besides being original research you’re probably just going to get 5 completely different answers from 5 different black Wikipedians (a group I’m not part of). Dronebogus ( talk) 15:57, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. A very tragic cross-categorisation on race. Ajf773 ( talk) 09:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per @ Vladimir.copic. This article is a WP:BLP and WP:OR nightmare there is no way to properly verify and maintain. This sub-topic list of black Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees is also an arbitrary creation. One article for all Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees is one thing, but a random-segregated WP:OR list fails WP:V. Newshunter12 ( talk) 23:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.