- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 11:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Outsider Musicians ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Unfeasible list without strict inclusion criteria. And WP:OR. TheLongTone ( talk) 13:45, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
(I wasn't sure where to post my defense, so it appears here on this deletion page, in the talk tab of this page, and in the talk tab of the article.)
TheLongTone, I hear your criticism, but I will note that Outsider music is an extant page which is linked to the page Outsider Art, which does have an associated List of Outsider artists article. This article includes folks such as Henry Darger, Nick Blinko, James Hampton, and others. That such a compendium already exists for the fine arts refutes your objection that the creation of this list in unfeasible.
With respect to your assertion that there are no "strict inclusion criteria" for this article, I note that I did provide a rule set for contributing to this list and that this rule set is a copy-paste from the long standing List of intelligent dance music artists. If you think that the criteria utilized there is somehow not applicable to this article, then I can fortify my criteria further with a definition of outsider music (I will note that no such definition is offered for IDM in List of intelligent dance music artists).
I can appeal to the authority of Irwin Chusid for a definition per this interview [1], though I think that this merely re-contextualizes the well-understood term "Outsider" from fine arts to music (again, see Outsider art). If you would like, I can request that users only add artists who are called "Outsider" by major publications: i.e. The Shaggs as outsider musicians is uncontroversial. [2] [3] I'm sure there will be some hairsplitting down the line, but I'm confident that this list is feasible.
Barelygaraidh ( talk) 16:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC) Barelygaraidh
References
- ^ "Psalms in the Key of Z". Retrieved 2018-10-15.
- ^ "Unbelievable Holy Grail Footage of the Shaggs from 1972 Found". Retrieved 2018-10-15.
- ^ "The Shaggs Reunion Concert was Unsettling, Beautiful, Eerie, and Will Probably Never Happen Again Found". Retrieved 2018-10-15.
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:58, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:59, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 19:00, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete – The outsider music article defines outsider musicians in part as "they commonly exist outside of the music establishment and usually suffer from mental illnesses or intellectual disabilities" [1] ( Link). As such, without sources verifying that said musicians on the list have such issues, the article is in violation of WP:BLP policy as contentious content ( WP:BLPREMOVE), indirectly labeling subjects with conditions that they may not necessarily have. As of this post, the article is unreferenced ( link). North America 1000 19:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Harper, Adam (2014). Lo-Fi Aesthetics in Popular Music Discourse (PDF). Wadham College. p. 48. Retrieved March 10, 2018.
- Comment. Category:Outsider musicians has 101 articles in it; any discussion of the corresponding list is incomplete at best without considering that content. Any article that does not support inclusion should be removed from that category. But if the inclusion of those articles in that category is supported by the content and sourcing in each article, then the list obviously is verifiable as well. postdlf ( talk) 19:55, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:TNT and WP:BLP. Most of the entries are not identified as outsiders in their articles, let alone lead to a source for the claim, so this is a gross BLP violation. If it's cleaned up during the course of this AfD, then a revision deletion might be sufficient, but at least the history has to go. BLP is a core policy and one of our more serious ones. The category needs a good clearout too. Spinning Spark 22:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ain't that the truth. How is Brian Wilson--for almost 6 decades releasing music on major labels, backed by top session musicians, and performing on traditional broadcast mediums--considering an "outsider" musician?
ShelbyMarion (
talk)
12:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- For the very simple reason that reliable sources have called him that and keep calling him that. That's the gold standard of any categorizing on Wikipedia, be it "subjective" or "objective". – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 10:31, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ain't that the truth. How is Brian Wilson--for almost 6 decades releasing music on major labels, backed by top session musicians, and performing on traditional broadcast mediums--considering an "outsider" musician?
ShelbyMarion (
talk)
12:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Isn't "outsider music" a subjective label, anyways? How could a list like this not be 100% someone's opinion? What about people like
Death Grips and
Tyler, the Creator and
BROCKHAMPTON (band)? Aren't they kind of experimental and weird, and therefore "outsiders"
💵Money💵emoji💵
💸
15:11, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you mean
subjective rather than
objective.
Spinning
Spark
15:27, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's what I meant. I dumb, lol. 💵Money💵emoji💵 💸 18:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you mean
subjective rather than
objective.
Spinning
Spark
15:27, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
RedirectConditional keepDelete – A list of outsider musicians is valid article idea, it just needs better sources. This article has only 2 citations for a hundred people. -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 07:47, 18 October 2018 (UTC)- @
Ilovetopaint: where are you proposing to redirect to? It would only make sense to redirect somewhere on Wikipedia where a list of outsider musicians existed. Do you know of such a location? Any other target would be confusing and useless to the reader, regardless of the notability of the concept.
Spinning
Spark
15:06, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Is this a rhetorical question? To
Outsider music, of course. The article can be remade afterward if all the listings are cited to reliable sources. If that happens before this discussion closes, then I'd support Keep.--
Ilovetopaint (
talk)
04:49, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, it was not rhetorical, and you have now !voted twice contradictorially. The fact is, there is currently nothing in that article to redirect to. What you are really proposing is a merge. You rightly point out that the list would need to be fully verified first. But that is entirely the rationale for deletion and it is not likely to happen in the time scale of this AfD. The only realistic way forward would be to construct a new list in the article from scratch.
Spinning
Spark
10:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm against a merge. -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 10:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, it was not rhetorical, and you have now !voted twice contradictorially. The fact is, there is currently nothing in that article to redirect to. What you are really proposing is a merge. You rightly point out that the list would need to be fully verified first. But that is entirely the rationale for deletion and it is not likely to happen in the time scale of this AfD. The only realistic way forward would be to construct a new list in the article from scratch.
Spinning
Spark
10:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- Is this a rhetorical question? To
Outsider music, of course. The article can be remade afterward if all the listings are cited to reliable sources. If that happens before this discussion closes, then I'd support Keep.--
Ilovetopaint (
talk)
04:49, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- @
Ilovetopaint: where are you proposing to redirect to? It would only make sense to redirect somewhere on Wikipedia where a list of outsider musicians existed. Do you know of such a location? Any other target would be confusing and useless to the reader, regardless of the notability of the concept.
Spinning
Spark
15:06, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Everything here can be referenced to reliable third party sources that call certain artists Outsider musicians as a matter of professional opinion. Unfortunately, most entries are currently not cited, but that's a cleanup issue. Feel free to remove any unsourced entries. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:58, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - as an unnecessary
content fork, especially when we already have
Category:Outsider musicians. Anyone in this list article who is not already in the category can have the category template added to the bottom of their articles, if they are described as "outsider music" with verification in the respective text. Particularly noteworthy musicians can be added as examples to spruce up the main
Outsider music article. ---
DOOMSDAYER520 (
Talk|
Contribs)
19:26, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates are not redundant even if they have the same scope. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 10:54, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 18:40, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. I am not sure why Barret "Dr. Demento" Hansen is on this list. He made his career as a disc jockey with his own syndicated show, not as a musical performer in his own right. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:32, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
- similarly William Shatner. TheLongTone ( talk) 14:16, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 11:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Outsider Musicians ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Unfeasible list without strict inclusion criteria. And WP:OR. TheLongTone ( talk) 13:45, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
(I wasn't sure where to post my defense, so it appears here on this deletion page, in the talk tab of this page, and in the talk tab of the article.)
TheLongTone, I hear your criticism, but I will note that Outsider music is an extant page which is linked to the page Outsider Art, which does have an associated List of Outsider artists article. This article includes folks such as Henry Darger, Nick Blinko, James Hampton, and others. That such a compendium already exists for the fine arts refutes your objection that the creation of this list in unfeasible.
With respect to your assertion that there are no "strict inclusion criteria" for this article, I note that I did provide a rule set for contributing to this list and that this rule set is a copy-paste from the long standing List of intelligent dance music artists. If you think that the criteria utilized there is somehow not applicable to this article, then I can fortify my criteria further with a definition of outsider music (I will note that no such definition is offered for IDM in List of intelligent dance music artists).
I can appeal to the authority of Irwin Chusid for a definition per this interview [1], though I think that this merely re-contextualizes the well-understood term "Outsider" from fine arts to music (again, see Outsider art). If you would like, I can request that users only add artists who are called "Outsider" by major publications: i.e. The Shaggs as outsider musicians is uncontroversial. [2] [3] I'm sure there will be some hairsplitting down the line, but I'm confident that this list is feasible.
Barelygaraidh ( talk) 16:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC) Barelygaraidh
References
- ^ "Psalms in the Key of Z". Retrieved 2018-10-15.
- ^ "Unbelievable Holy Grail Footage of the Shaggs from 1972 Found". Retrieved 2018-10-15.
- ^ "The Shaggs Reunion Concert was Unsettling, Beautiful, Eerie, and Will Probably Never Happen Again Found". Retrieved 2018-10-15.
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:58, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:59, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 19:00, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete – The outsider music article defines outsider musicians in part as "they commonly exist outside of the music establishment and usually suffer from mental illnesses or intellectual disabilities" [1] ( Link). As such, without sources verifying that said musicians on the list have such issues, the article is in violation of WP:BLP policy as contentious content ( WP:BLPREMOVE), indirectly labeling subjects with conditions that they may not necessarily have. As of this post, the article is unreferenced ( link). North America 1000 19:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Harper, Adam (2014). Lo-Fi Aesthetics in Popular Music Discourse (PDF). Wadham College. p. 48. Retrieved March 10, 2018.
- Comment. Category:Outsider musicians has 101 articles in it; any discussion of the corresponding list is incomplete at best without considering that content. Any article that does not support inclusion should be removed from that category. But if the inclusion of those articles in that category is supported by the content and sourcing in each article, then the list obviously is verifiable as well. postdlf ( talk) 19:55, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:TNT and WP:BLP. Most of the entries are not identified as outsiders in their articles, let alone lead to a source for the claim, so this is a gross BLP violation. If it's cleaned up during the course of this AfD, then a revision deletion might be sufficient, but at least the history has to go. BLP is a core policy and one of our more serious ones. The category needs a good clearout too. Spinning Spark 22:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ain't that the truth. How is Brian Wilson--for almost 6 decades releasing music on major labels, backed by top session musicians, and performing on traditional broadcast mediums--considering an "outsider" musician?
ShelbyMarion (
talk)
12:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- For the very simple reason that reliable sources have called him that and keep calling him that. That's the gold standard of any categorizing on Wikipedia, be it "subjective" or "objective". – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 10:31, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
- Ain't that the truth. How is Brian Wilson--for almost 6 decades releasing music on major labels, backed by top session musicians, and performing on traditional broadcast mediums--considering an "outsider" musician?
ShelbyMarion (
talk)
12:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Isn't "outsider music" a subjective label, anyways? How could a list like this not be 100% someone's opinion? What about people like
Death Grips and
Tyler, the Creator and
BROCKHAMPTON (band)? Aren't they kind of experimental and weird, and therefore "outsiders"
💵Money💵emoji💵
💸
15:11, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you mean
subjective rather than
objective.
Spinning
Spark
15:27, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's what I meant. I dumb, lol. 💵Money💵emoji💵 💸 18:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe you mean
subjective rather than
objective.
Spinning
Spark
15:27, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
RedirectConditional keepDelete – A list of outsider musicians is valid article idea, it just needs better sources. This article has only 2 citations for a hundred people. -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 07:47, 18 October 2018 (UTC)- @
Ilovetopaint: where are you proposing to redirect to? It would only make sense to redirect somewhere on Wikipedia where a list of outsider musicians existed. Do you know of such a location? Any other target would be confusing and useless to the reader, regardless of the notability of the concept.
Spinning
Spark
15:06, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Is this a rhetorical question? To
Outsider music, of course. The article can be remade afterward if all the listings are cited to reliable sources. If that happens before this discussion closes, then I'd support Keep.--
Ilovetopaint (
talk)
04:49, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, it was not rhetorical, and you have now !voted twice contradictorially. The fact is, there is currently nothing in that article to redirect to. What you are really proposing is a merge. You rightly point out that the list would need to be fully verified first. But that is entirely the rationale for deletion and it is not likely to happen in the time scale of this AfD. The only realistic way forward would be to construct a new list in the article from scratch.
Spinning
Spark
10:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm against a merge. -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 10:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- No, it was not rhetorical, and you have now !voted twice contradictorially. The fact is, there is currently nothing in that article to redirect to. What you are really proposing is a merge. You rightly point out that the list would need to be fully verified first. But that is entirely the rationale for deletion and it is not likely to happen in the time scale of this AfD. The only realistic way forward would be to construct a new list in the article from scratch.
Spinning
Spark
10:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- Is this a rhetorical question? To
Outsider music, of course. The article can be remade afterward if all the listings are cited to reliable sources. If that happens before this discussion closes, then I'd support Keep.--
Ilovetopaint (
talk)
04:49, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
- @
Ilovetopaint: where are you proposing to redirect to? It would only make sense to redirect somewhere on Wikipedia where a list of outsider musicians existed. Do you know of such a location? Any other target would be confusing and useless to the reader, regardless of the notability of the concept.
Spinning
Spark
15:06, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Everything here can be referenced to reliable third party sources that call certain artists Outsider musicians as a matter of professional opinion. Unfortunately, most entries are currently not cited, but that's a cleanup issue. Feel free to remove any unsourced entries. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:58, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - as an unnecessary
content fork, especially when we already have
Category:Outsider musicians. Anyone in this list article who is not already in the category can have the category template added to the bottom of their articles, if they are described as "outsider music" with verification in the respective text. Particularly noteworthy musicians can be added as examples to spruce up the main
Outsider music article. ---
DOOMSDAYER520 (
Talk|
Contribs)
19:26, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates are not redundant even if they have the same scope. – Finnusertop ( talk ⋅ contribs) 10:54, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 18:40, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment. I am not sure why Barret "Dr. Demento" Hansen is on this list. He made his career as a disc jockey with his own syndicated show, not as a musical performer in his own right. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:32, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
- similarly William Shatner. TheLongTone ( talk) 14:16, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.