The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Keep. A "mere journalist"? We are off to a strong start here I see. Independent reliable third-party sources found it notable enough to publish articles about Ms. Lopez and they are cited on the article. Also, I do not see any reason to believe that the steps listed at
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion#Before_nominating have been taken.
QRep2020 (
talk)
17:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Bloomberg is from their Hyperdrive portal, not the main site, and the article isn't about her. WTTF is ok-ish, but that's about all.
Oaktree b (
talk)
16:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. Though a redirect/merge of some of the content into
Elon Musk may be in order. The sources are a mixed bag of those which cannot be used to establish
WP:NOTABILITY (non-
WP:INDEPENDENT site bio and a link to a webpage for the subject's alma mater which seems to serve no purpose but to pad the reflist), and those which do include reference to the subject, but incidental to discussion of the actual focus of those articles: the conduct of Elon Musk, who this reporter has covered and been publicly attacked by. While there are a half dozen of these, and they start to push slightly towards in-depth coverage, the extremely narrow relevance and constrained period of time they cover doesn't really come close to meeting the threshold for ongoing, detailed coverage of the subject of this article. She may very well warrant an article where these sources become relevant eventually--and in the meantime, I would argue some of the details are very probably
WP:DUE at the Musk article--but
WP:GNG is not met at this time. SnowRise let's rap10:04, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Firstly, the article's contents won't fit on
Elon Musk as that article explores his activities and history in a more general sense. Secondly, the article also demonstrates that Musk's mistreatment of Lopez is targeted and continuous due to her prior coverage of him and his businesses. The independent reliable sources also present this observation across time, therefore it is notable and worthy of staying on Wikipedia, and as she is the subject of the mistreatment she is as well. Thirdly, beyond Musk, Lopez's journalistic work constitutes over 3,000 articles:
https://muckrack.com/lopezlinette , an outstanding amount of reporting in its own right.
I honestly believe that there are plenty of other secondary sources about Lopez, whether in regards to Musk or about her own work, so I implore editors to focus on enriching the article instead of this AfD.
QRep2020 (
talk)
23:18, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry, but you have that test backwards: if you are confident that there are sources that you think would further validate the subject's notability, you are more than welcome to find and present them. But no one is compelled to do it for you. And if they aren't found and presented by someone, policy does not direct us to assume that they do exist just because you've assured us you think they do; quite the opposite, we have to presume they don't, absent a showing that they do. SnowRise let's rap09:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete one of many that got caught in the whims of Elon as he runs twitter as he sees fit; I can't find substantial coverage about her, other than being named along with other people that got caught up in the kerfuffle. Sources used in the article an un-RS or simply biographical articles.
Oaktree b (
talk)
16:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Simply put, she wasn't notable before the twitter incident, she was just another working journalist. I'm not sure being one of many that got banned in a twitter fluff makes her notable.
Oaktree b (
talk)
19:42, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
She is indeed notable for being a reporter who Musk has retaliated against multiple times now. The Twitter incident pales in comparison to when she broke the Martin Tripp story really.
QRep2020 (
talk)
05:16, 1 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry QRep, but the onus is upon the party asserting notability to provide sources which establish significant coverage of the subject. The consensus so far is that some of the sourcing does not qualify as
WP:RS, and the remaining mentions are incidental and short-term, therefore failing
WP:SIGCOV,
WP:NRV and
WP:SUSTAINED, all requirements for a showing of notability. There's still time for a lot more input, so consensus may change, but I think it's unlikely. SnowRise let's rap09:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. While GNG appears to be met (see collapsed table below), this is a biography, so we need to examine this through the lens of
WP:NBIO.
? Appears to be a University publication. Unclear if this is the equivalent of a press release or if this is subject to editorial review.
~ While reliable about home institutions, per
WP:RSSM, student media may be discounted during notability discussions about topics related to home institutions.
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
As the table above shows, whether or not she was covered significantly in the context of multiple events seems to hinge on the reliability of the Slate piece and whether we treat it as
WP:RSOPINION or as a regular piece of
WP:NEWSORG reporting. I feel like it is a bit of a stretch to say that the 2018 Slate piece covers her in the context of the same event that was her suspension from Twitter, so I'm a bit hesitant to say that this is clearly
WP:BLP1E if we treat that source as reliable. After all, as
WP:BLP2E correctly states, if reliable sources cover the person in the context of more than a single event, then BLP1E does not apply. She also doesn't exactly appear to be a low-profile individual, so I doubt that
WP:BLP1E#2 applies to her even if we were to treat Slate's coverage as an opinion piece. Alas, the
other coverage of Lopez that I could find online appears to cover her in the context of her suspension from Twitter, so looking for sources not in the article already doesn't really help clarify what to do here.
Delete because although she has independent in-depth coverage in mid-2023 it's all arising from the Twitter suspension. I think that puts her into
WP:1E and (like so many things involving Musk) not a particularly compelling event.
It's slightly more complicated than one-event, because he maligned her twice -- the 2019/2020 articles don't seem to be about her, but about the coverage on which Musk criticised her (the Bloomberg article is paywalled so I can't see it) -- but his allegations got just passing mentions in press coverage at the time.
Oblivy (
talk)
04:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Still a long, long way to go with this article, as there is so much information that is still missing, but by definition, her coverage of Tesla spanning many years, plus her coverage of Occupy Wall Street, are both widely cited and satisfy criteria #1 and #3 of
WP:NAUTHOR, which says The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews, or of an independent and notable work.... Also easily satisfies
WP:BASIC. (It's always hard to do good searches on journalists, as you have to weed through so much of their own bylines, but the more you dig, the more you find.)
Cielquiparle (
talk)
22:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Update is that there is still room for expansion/improvement, but at this point I would say it's also a pass per
WP:HEY. Another point is that the author actually has a large body of citations across Wikipedia (be sure to search for "Lopez, Linette" as well as "Linette Lopez" – not sure if there is an "Authorlink" bot similar to "Findlink" that takes care of this automatically but the number is large enough that it seems like a tedious update to make manually). In any case I don't think there's any doubt about her notability per
WP:NAUTHOR, and there is still plenty of other secondary coverage about her media coverage that could still be added to the article.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
02:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, the article has been improved significantly. But aside from the Common Ground citation is there anything new that adds to the
WP:NAUTHOR analysis? Those four factors all point to recognition by others of her body of work or contributions. One might argue that the attention she received from Musk is a backhanded complement but that seems a stretch.
Oblivy (
talk)
03:49, 13 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, several secondary articles have been added which specifically discuss her coverage of Tesla, Inc. There are many, many more articles like that. Her body of articles are also widely cited in articles discussing Occupy Wall Street. And all the other citations within Wikipedia. That is sufficient for
WP:NJOURNALIST, criteria #1 and #3.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
08:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)reply
It's worth remembering that every article must still pass
WP:GNG; SNGs merely establish temporary presumed notability based on certain common metrics that are believed to indicate a likely basis for notability. However, at AfD the party arguing for retention still bears the burden of demonstrating that there is substantial, in-depth coverage of the subject itself. A journalist might satisfy
WP:NAUTHOR thirty times over, because they had a hand in breaking the ten biggest stories of the previous decade, but if independent sources don't cover them as a subject, it doesn't matter.
That said, if the expansion of the article is perceived as a positive indicator that such coverage can be ultimately found, then let's grant the time to bring them to bear. There's clearly a 'no consensus' result here at present anyway. But speaking for myself, I'm only going to formally change my !vote once I see detailed coverage of Lopez herself, as required by policy. This "she widely covered this", "she was instrumental in that" is all just a distraction unless RS report directly on her accomplishments and validate the significance independent of our being impressed. SnowRise let's rap04:39, 14 June 2023 (UTC)reply
For biographical articles we have
WP:BASIC, which says: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability. The article with its current sourcing easily satisfies this criterion.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
10:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Keep. A "mere journalist"? We are off to a strong start here I see. Independent reliable third-party sources found it notable enough to publish articles about Ms. Lopez and they are cited on the article. Also, I do not see any reason to believe that the steps listed at
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion#Before_nominating have been taken.
QRep2020 (
talk)
17:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Bloomberg is from their Hyperdrive portal, not the main site, and the article isn't about her. WTTF is ok-ish, but that's about all.
Oaktree b (
talk)
16:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. Though a redirect/merge of some of the content into
Elon Musk may be in order. The sources are a mixed bag of those which cannot be used to establish
WP:NOTABILITY (non-
WP:INDEPENDENT site bio and a link to a webpage for the subject's alma mater which seems to serve no purpose but to pad the reflist), and those which do include reference to the subject, but incidental to discussion of the actual focus of those articles: the conduct of Elon Musk, who this reporter has covered and been publicly attacked by. While there are a half dozen of these, and they start to push slightly towards in-depth coverage, the extremely narrow relevance and constrained period of time they cover doesn't really come close to meeting the threshold for ongoing, detailed coverage of the subject of this article. She may very well warrant an article where these sources become relevant eventually--and in the meantime, I would argue some of the details are very probably
WP:DUE at the Musk article--but
WP:GNG is not met at this time. SnowRise let's rap10:04, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Firstly, the article's contents won't fit on
Elon Musk as that article explores his activities and history in a more general sense. Secondly, the article also demonstrates that Musk's mistreatment of Lopez is targeted and continuous due to her prior coverage of him and his businesses. The independent reliable sources also present this observation across time, therefore it is notable and worthy of staying on Wikipedia, and as she is the subject of the mistreatment she is as well. Thirdly, beyond Musk, Lopez's journalistic work constitutes over 3,000 articles:
https://muckrack.com/lopezlinette , an outstanding amount of reporting in its own right.
I honestly believe that there are plenty of other secondary sources about Lopez, whether in regards to Musk or about her own work, so I implore editors to focus on enriching the article instead of this AfD.
QRep2020 (
talk)
23:18, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry, but you have that test backwards: if you are confident that there are sources that you think would further validate the subject's notability, you are more than welcome to find and present them. But no one is compelled to do it for you. And if they aren't found and presented by someone, policy does not direct us to assume that they do exist just because you've assured us you think they do; quite the opposite, we have to presume they don't, absent a showing that they do. SnowRise let's rap09:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete one of many that got caught in the whims of Elon as he runs twitter as he sees fit; I can't find substantial coverage about her, other than being named along with other people that got caught up in the kerfuffle. Sources used in the article an un-RS or simply biographical articles.
Oaktree b (
talk)
16:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Simply put, she wasn't notable before the twitter incident, she was just another working journalist. I'm not sure being one of many that got banned in a twitter fluff makes her notable.
Oaktree b (
talk)
19:42, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
She is indeed notable for being a reporter who Musk has retaliated against multiple times now. The Twitter incident pales in comparison to when she broke the Martin Tripp story really.
QRep2020 (
talk)
05:16, 1 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm sorry QRep, but the onus is upon the party asserting notability to provide sources which establish significant coverage of the subject. The consensus so far is that some of the sourcing does not qualify as
WP:RS, and the remaining mentions are incidental and short-term, therefore failing
WP:SIGCOV,
WP:NRV and
WP:SUSTAINED, all requirements for a showing of notability. There's still time for a lot more input, so consensus may change, but I think it's unlikely. SnowRise let's rap09:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. While GNG appears to be met (see collapsed table below), this is a biography, so we need to examine this through the lens of
WP:NBIO.
? Appears to be a University publication. Unclear if this is the equivalent of a press release or if this is subject to editorial review.
~ While reliable about home institutions, per
WP:RSSM, student media may be discounted during notability discussions about topics related to home institutions.
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
As the table above shows, whether or not she was covered significantly in the context of multiple events seems to hinge on the reliability of the Slate piece and whether we treat it as
WP:RSOPINION or as a regular piece of
WP:NEWSORG reporting. I feel like it is a bit of a stretch to say that the 2018 Slate piece covers her in the context of the same event that was her suspension from Twitter, so I'm a bit hesitant to say that this is clearly
WP:BLP1E if we treat that source as reliable. After all, as
WP:BLP2E correctly states, if reliable sources cover the person in the context of more than a single event, then BLP1E does not apply. She also doesn't exactly appear to be a low-profile individual, so I doubt that
WP:BLP1E#2 applies to her even if we were to treat Slate's coverage as an opinion piece. Alas, the
other coverage of Lopez that I could find online appears to cover her in the context of her suspension from Twitter, so looking for sources not in the article already doesn't really help clarify what to do here.
Delete because although she has independent in-depth coverage in mid-2023 it's all arising from the Twitter suspension. I think that puts her into
WP:1E and (like so many things involving Musk) not a particularly compelling event.
It's slightly more complicated than one-event, because he maligned her twice -- the 2019/2020 articles don't seem to be about her, but about the coverage on which Musk criticised her (the Bloomberg article is paywalled so I can't see it) -- but his allegations got just passing mentions in press coverage at the time.
Oblivy (
talk)
04:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Still a long, long way to go with this article, as there is so much information that is still missing, but by definition, her coverage of Tesla spanning many years, plus her coverage of Occupy Wall Street, are both widely cited and satisfy criteria #1 and #3 of
WP:NAUTHOR, which says The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews, or of an independent and notable work.... Also easily satisfies
WP:BASIC. (It's always hard to do good searches on journalists, as you have to weed through so much of their own bylines, but the more you dig, the more you find.)
Cielquiparle (
talk)
22:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Update is that there is still room for expansion/improvement, but at this point I would say it's also a pass per
WP:HEY. Another point is that the author actually has a large body of citations across Wikipedia (be sure to search for "Lopez, Linette" as well as "Linette Lopez" – not sure if there is an "Authorlink" bot similar to "Findlink" that takes care of this automatically but the number is large enough that it seems like a tedious update to make manually). In any case I don't think there's any doubt about her notability per
WP:NAUTHOR, and there is still plenty of other secondary coverage about her media coverage that could still be added to the article.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
02:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, the article has been improved significantly. But aside from the Common Ground citation is there anything new that adds to the
WP:NAUTHOR analysis? Those four factors all point to recognition by others of her body of work or contributions. One might argue that the attention she received from Musk is a backhanded complement but that seems a stretch.
Oblivy (
talk)
03:49, 13 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, several secondary articles have been added which specifically discuss her coverage of Tesla, Inc. There are many, many more articles like that. Her body of articles are also widely cited in articles discussing Occupy Wall Street. And all the other citations within Wikipedia. That is sufficient for
WP:NJOURNALIST, criteria #1 and #3.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
08:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)reply
It's worth remembering that every article must still pass
WP:GNG; SNGs merely establish temporary presumed notability based on certain common metrics that are believed to indicate a likely basis for notability. However, at AfD the party arguing for retention still bears the burden of demonstrating that there is substantial, in-depth coverage of the subject itself. A journalist might satisfy
WP:NAUTHOR thirty times over, because they had a hand in breaking the ten biggest stories of the previous decade, but if independent sources don't cover them as a subject, it doesn't matter.
That said, if the expansion of the article is perceived as a positive indicator that such coverage can be ultimately found, then let's grant the time to bring them to bear. There's clearly a 'no consensus' result here at present anyway. But speaking for myself, I'm only going to formally change my !vote once I see detailed coverage of Lopez herself, as required by policy. This "she widely covered this", "she was instrumental in that" is all just a distraction unless RS report directly on her accomplishments and validate the significance independent of our being impressed. SnowRise let's rap04:39, 14 June 2023 (UTC)reply
For biographical articles we have
WP:BASIC, which says: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability. The article with its current sourcing easily satisfies this criterion.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
10:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.