The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. RL0919 ( talk) 21:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Lena Luthor

Lena Luthor (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Non-notable comic character, most coverage is about the Arrowverse version of the character Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Science fiction and fantasy, and Comics and animation. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 07:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply
• Keep - there appears to be significant coverage of this character, including related to her role in Supergirl (TV series), e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], and on GScholar, but also as a comic book character, e.g. DC Comics Ultimate Character Guide New Edition (p. 121), The DC Comics Encyclopedia New Edition (p. 192), DC Comics Encyclopedia (pp. 26, 35, 311, 366, 794, 795, 832), Superman (pp. 97, 112, 752, 885, 943, 1166, 1197, 1284), Disability and the Superhero: Essays on Ableism and Representation in Comic Media (p. 78 - comparing her portrayal in the CW/Arrowverse to her comic book depiction), etc. Beccaynr ( talk) 08:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  The character guides were all written by DC or in partnership with them so not independent. Sources 2-6, 8 are episode recaps. The superman one is pure plot summary Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  The first one is casting news, which talks about the fact that TVLINE has casting news. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  There are also two books cited in the article at the time the nomination; American Comic Book Chronicles: The 1960s, 1960-64 and The Essential Superman Encyclopedia. The scholarly literature on the character at GScholar is independent, e.g. [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], as is the analysis cited above comparing her representation in comics and television. And while I quickly pulled sources from extensive GNews results, sources such as Supergirl: Lena Luthor Is Only the Latest Example of the Arrowverse’s Biggest Problem ( CBR, 2021) (#7) and Arrowverse: Why Kara And Lena Aren't Real Friends ( Screen Rant, 2020) (#8) seem to offer secondary evaluations of the character. Also, based on coverage of this character in various comics, as well as the television series, there does not seem to be a single redirect target, so per WP:PAGEDECIDE, this context also seems to support keeping and further developing this article. Beccaynr ( talk) 20:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  It seems like majority of this coverage is on the arrowverse version. From the looks of it that version is more notable, could we potentially split the page into two seprate ones? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:58, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  WP:WHENSPLIT does not appear to support this, according to size, the notability guideline (e.g. the available coverage for various comics and the TV series and WP:PAGEDECIDE, "where the relationships between them can be better appreciated than if they were each a separate page"), and neutrality (e.g. disability/ableism coverage discussing the comics character in a wheelchair and the television character). Beccaynr ( talk) 23:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  The first two books seem like plot summaries for fans, at the level of our current article. The scholarly literature shows some potential but it is paywalled/snippetted. I would be willing to consider a keep vote but it is the reponsibility of those arguing for keep to show there are sources and not just that WP:THEREMAYBESOURCES. Please use Wikimedia Library/LibGen and like to access the scholarly sources and either quote passages here that demonstrate non-trivial analysis that meets SIGCOV or improve the article and ping me. Until then I vote to redirect this while preserving history, since what we have is pure unencyclopedic WP:FANCRUFT. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  I've notified Wikiproject Women in Red about the AfD and how this article may benefit from further research and development.

  From my view, this character verifiably has appeared in multiple television shows and comics (and this article is linked by roughly 230 or so articles), so a redirect may not help improve or maintain Wikipedia. I think questions related to how to organize and improve an article for a character this integrated into the encyclopedia could benefit from a talk page discussion. Beccaynr ( talk) 03:23, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  • Merge Per the various break downs of sourcs (by myself and User:Piotrus above I think mabye there is enough to merge it into List of Supergirl characters. Personally I dont think the comic book character is notable while the Arrowverse character has potential. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disability-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr ( talk) 08:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep per the claim of @ Beccaynr: or merge with List of DC Comics characters: L in the spirit of WP:PRESERVE. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 17:08, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr ( talk) 23:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC) reply
• Delete or Merge. Too trivial for Wikipedia. Xxanthippe ( talk) 03:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC). reply

That's...not a deletion argument. You don't get to decide what's trivial. Reliable source coverage is what determines notability. Otherwise you're arguing all fictional characters are trivial? Silver seren ^C 03:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

WP:ITEXISTS is not a valid argument. Some fictional characters are trivial, some aren't. I note that the vastly more important fictional character the Baron de Charlus does not get a page although he has an article in Britannica. Xxanthippe ( talk) 03:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC). reply

But isnt that arguement WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 17:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep There appears to be quite a bit of significant coverage of Lena Luthor from an academic and published book perspective, particularly in relation to feminism and the LGBT community. Here's just one example of that, among many. And that attention has appeared to only expand due to the recent television shows due to the writers essentially using queerbaiting to generate interest. Silver seren ^C 03:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply
• Keep per the sources given above and due to her notability not just in the comic book series but also regarding LGBTQ+ and feminism. Whilst some reception would be great for the article, deletion is not appropriate. DaniloDaysOfOurLives ( talk) 03:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Changing vote to Strong keep per Siroxo's sources and analysis. DaniloDaysOfOurLives ( talk) 07:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep The academic sources found by Beccaynr are sufficient to demonstrate that the subject meets WP:GNG. — siro χ o 04:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Just to try to save editors some time in this discussion, here's some from two of Beccaynrs sources. Not an exhaustive representation of those sources.

  Hicks in Supersex, 2020 ( available via TWL) has multiple pages of SIGCOV including for example.

  ... season 2 saw Supergirl undergo several dramatic changes, including the introduction of Lena Luthor, the adopted sister of ... Lex Luthor. In her original Action Comics appearances, Lena is Supergirl’s best friend, and unaware that she is related to Lex Luthor. Because of Lena’s ESP powers, how-ever, Supergirl is constantly worried she will unwittingly “confess” her true identity to Lena. In addition, because she knows who Lena’s brother is, Supergirl continually doubts the veracity of Lena’s friendship. The television series imports these tensions while slightly rearranging their specifics. Because Lena is a Luthor, she is mistrusted by most people in National City. The key exception is Supergirl, who, for the most part, trusts Lena has good intentions, even as she continues to keep the identity of her alter ego a secret from her. Lena herself notes that her friend-ship with Supergirl exists “against all odds”: “Who would’ve believed it? A Luthor and a Super, working together.”36 The emotional drama of the friendship that develops between both Lena and Kara as well as Lena and Supergirl is bolstered by these tensions and by the onscreen chemistry between Benoist/Supergirl and McGrath/Lena. This in turn fuels fans’ championing of a romantic interpretation of the two’s relationship.
  ...
  In some ways, the Supercorp fandom is organized around the figure of Lena Luthor rather than Supergirl; Lena typically works as a self-insert character, and stories are frequently told from her perspective and/or con-structed to prioritize her point of view. Tumblr user katiemccgrath argues that “the Supercorp fandom is just a bunch of bottoms self-projecting onto lena luthor and that’s Valid.”53 One effect of this conventional pat-tern is that, instead of reifying a patriarchal framework that would seek to contain Supergirl’s supersexuality, the Supercorp fandom celebrates Supergirl’s abilities and her sexual dominance of Lena. Although some fans do openly identify with Supergirl and make Lena/McGrath the object of their sexual desires, they appear to be in the minority. In some fan conversations, lusting after Lena is even (jokingly) disapproved of; some Supercorp shippers react as if it places the fan in competition with the all-powerful Supergirl, who has already “claimed” Lena.

  Church, in Girl of Steel, 2020, has a 19 page essay dedicated in large part to the subject. Here are two snippets:

  Lena, conversely, constructs her "normal" public persona as a stereotypical CEO based on her own experiences: she is guarded with those around her and apprehensive towards trusting them. Both are responding to societal assumptions of how females and millennials would behave in contemporary society, and use these assumptions to create a false self for the public that are interpretations necessary for assimilation.
  ...
  For Lena, her public/ private masks work much differently. Rather than suppress her power draw from anger, Lena has to constantly suppress her vulnerability and insecurities from the public. As a CEO of a billion-dollar company, she cannot afford to be seen as weak or emotional. She also cannot express anger because National City's citizens are wary of her family's psychotic history. On an individual level, the series suggests that like these characters, we all have parts of ourselves that we repress to either protect others or ourselves. On a more symbolic level, it also highlights society's fear of strong, powerful women as demonstrated by National City's reaction to these characters as well as the characters' need to repress their true selves.

  — siro χ o 07:08, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  The second source is good but the first one seems to be more of a plot summary with some comments about Lena-Supergirl relationship, but next to nothing about Lena herself (that is not plot summary). That said, we are getting close to having enough content to warrant keeping this. Anything else? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  What I quoted here from the first source is sufficient to demonstrate SIGCOV, but I did include a link above that grants access via TWL, if you want to read the source in full. Fair warning, the source itself is uncensored. — siro χ o 11:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  • this is the partial quote available at p. 78 from Disability and the Superhero: Essays on Ableism and Representation in Comic Media (2023), critiquing her portrayal in Supergirl as a "missed opportunity to portray bodily diversity" and stating "There are various iterations of Luthor in other media, one of the most prominent versions being a wheelchair user..."
  • this is a link to 29 results with partial quotes for "Lena Luthor" in the Girl of Steel: Essays on Television's Supergirl and Fourth-Wave Feminism (2020) book
  • the Journal of Lesbian Studies article abstract includes, "The Supercorp fandom refers to the platonic friendship between Kara Danvers, aka Supergirl, and her friend Lena Luthor. [...] Supergirl’s screenwriters were notorious for placing Kara and Lena in heteronormative relationship scenarios, effectively queerbaiting (or covert courting) the audience by suggesting a romantic relationship never explored on-screen"; The New York Times briefly covers SuperCorp in 2017, and CBR has more coverage in 2020.

  Beccaynr ( talk) 15:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Also, while I have not found access to American Comic Book Chronicles: The 1960s, 1960-64, based on its description, this does not appear to be a plot summary - it is used in the article to cite Lena Luthor's first appearance in a comic; the book's description is focused on the history of comics, including "significant publications, notable creators, and impactful trends".

  At the Wikipedia Library, there is a review of Cosmic Adventures of the 8th Grade from the School Library Journal, Brickey, Morgan, Jul2016, Vol. 62, Issue 7, Literary Reference Center Plus (..."Thankfully, as Linda, she makes a friend in Lena Thorul, but Lena is not who she seems..."); there is another review in Teacher Librarian, "Women Who Fly.", Sanders, Joe Sutliff, Jun2010, Vol. 37, Issue 5, Master File Complete (..."Fortunately, Kara's gloomy roommate is very supportive--but who is that bald super-villain she keeps sending e-mails to?"...) Beccaynr ( talk) 16:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Also, Bleeding Cool ( 15 Oct 2014), reviews various iterations of the Lena Luthor character as part of presenting her latest appearance in a comic; this does not seem to be a plot summary, but instead secondary context that finds her past presentations noteworthy for understanding her character. And The Worst Things Lex Luthor Has Ever Done ( CBR, 2016) includes "...the absolute worst example involved Luthor's own sister, Lena Luthor. Lena is a paraplegic. In "Adventure Comics" #5,..." Beccaynr ( talk) 16:45, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  CBR also provides an overview in 2020 noting Lena Luthor's debut is Superman Girlfriend Lois Lane #23, her character development, and her role in DC Super Hero Girls (as Lutessa Lena Luthor) and her role in Smallville as Tess. CBR also mentions this in 15 Times the Arrowverse Copied Smallville (2016), e.g. "One of "Smallville's" biggest reveals came two seasons later, explaining that Tess was actually Lex's biological sister, Lena Luthor, who their father had given up for adoption." Screen Rant makes a connection in 2021 between Smallville and the comics, i.e. "Tess discovered her birth name in the final season was Lutessa Lena Luthor, confirming she was Lex's canonical sister from the comics." Tor.com, in a 2017 review of the Supergirl episode "Luthors", mentions: "knowing next to nothing about Lena’s history in comic book canon, [Kara and Lena's] interactions are lacking in any dramatic irony for me." CBR also includes Lena Luthor in Smallville: Every Main Character's Age, with biographical information and references to various appearances in the show; the source suggests age "can help a viewer understand character dynamics and relationships". Beccaynr ( talk) 21:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  But a repeeted theme with these seems to be the television versions, and what this article is about is the comic. Mabye the page could be reworked into primarly being about the television, but I'm not seeing very much on the original comic version Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  This article is not only about various comics; the lead and sections cover comics, television, and other media. And various sources refer to a comics canon, and the relevance of her past portrayals in various comics, including when discussing individual comics, as well as her role in television, indicating a connection between portrayals that does not seem to support a split (which as noted above, also does not seem supported by WP:SPLIT). I have also found two reviews that note her role in the graphic novel Cosmic Adventures of the 8th Grade, and two reviews of her role in Robot Chicken's DC Comics Special 2.

  I also think the secondary coverage for various portrayals as a group helps support the concern I expressed earlier about the 200+ articles that link to this article and my suggestion about discussing article reorganization and improvements on the article talk page. Perhaps this article would work better if it is edited into more of a list, because Lena Luthor characters across various media appear to be notable as a group or set, and it could benefit the encyclopedia to have one article written in summary style.

  I am concerned about the potential impact of a merge/redirect of Lena Luthor to the Arrowverse, when she is otherwise so widely linked for other roles. According to WP:LISTN, each individual role does not need to be established as independently notable; based on the available sources, it appears we can provide an encyclopedic resource by providing an overivew and directing readers to the particular Lena Luthor portrayal they may be seeking when they visit this article. Beccaynr ( talk) 22:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  CBR (2022) also provides an overview of various portrayals of Lena Luthor in 10 Greatest Golden Age DC Legacy Villains ("Lena Luthor is a character that has been changed a lot by the shifting tides of DC continuity"); The New York Times, in A ‘Crisis’ Brings Together Many DC Comics Heroes (2019) reports on the television series "inspired by 1985’s Crisis on Infinite Earths, a 12-issue comic book series", Lena Luthor is mentioned. Beccaynr ( talk) 23:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Screen Rant discusses a portrayal of Lena Luthor in a comic (Adventure Comics #6) in The Most Evil Thing Lex Luthor Ever Did is Still Outrageous (2022) - this appears to be commentary, not just a plot summary.

  Screen Rant ( 2020) also reviews Robot Chicken's DC Comics Special 2, which includes a story with "an impromptu trip to the beach where Lex’s daughter Lena has absconded with Superboy" [...] "Highlights include a Grease-style singalong with Lena Luthor and Superboy and Aquaman summoning an army of seahorses to defeat Starro." An IGN review includes, "there's also a running conflict involving Luthor's daughter Lena ditching her father to hang out with her boyfriend Superboy on the beach for spring break. That culminates in one of the longest and most intricately crafted segments I can remember from the series as the Legion of Doom frolic on the beach, battle the Justice League, and then unite to confront a common enemy." Beccaynr ( talk) 22:23, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  My problem with that is those seem to cover other things, that happen to include her more as passing mentions. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  In the WP:SIGCOV guideline, trivial mentions are discussed, including Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material; an example of a line of text is offered that is "plainly a trivial mention."

  By contrast, the first Screen Rant source in the comment above ( 2022) has two grafs of commentary and discussion related to Lena (beginning "And as one savage moment shows, even the lives of his own family aren't safe..." and ending "...giving his own sister hope before snatching it away is the perfect example of why Lex is above all, a monster.") This appears to be both significant coverage and secondary commentary, according to the guideline. In the second Screen Rant source ( 2020), Lena Luthor is discussed in the context of the sketch ranked the best and described as the longest, and as part of a "highlight." This is a review that helps show her appearance in a notable work, along with the IGN review (2014) describing her role as part of a "running conflict" and also offering secondary commentary supporting the notability of the work. Beccaynr ( talk) 00:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Leaving the issue of what should happen to this article aside, Screen Rant is a content farm that should never be used for assessing WP:Notability or WP:Due weight. TompaDompa ( talk) 19:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  There is a 2021 RfC about Screen Rant with the conclusion " Screen Rant is considered to be a marginally reliable source. It might not be appropriate for controversial statements in BLPs, but it is reliable enough for other uses." Beccaynr ( talk) 20:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  Whether a source is WP:Reliable, i.e. usable for WP:Verification, is orthogonal to its usability as an indicator of WP:Notability and WP:Due weight. TompaDompa ( talk) 21:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC) reply

  If we disregard the screen rant source, most of what your bringing up is plot summary Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC) reply

• Keep Enough coverage has been found to convince me this meets the general notability guidelines. Dream Focus 10:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.