The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. For his position as a state-level supreme court judge, basically. The problems with content unsupported by reliable sources can presumably be addressed by judicious deletion of such content.  Sandstein  18:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC) reply

Khan Bahadur Aga Sayed Hussain Thakkar

Khan Bahadur Aga Sayed Hussain Thakkar (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Khan Bahadur Aga Syed Hussain (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Non-notable person. Claims of significance are either unclear (first matriculate of Kashmir? what does that mean?) or are of limited significance and are not verified by reliable sources (first Muslim judge and only Muslim minister in the Dogra rule (presumably the Dogra dynasty)). Sources consist of family history blogs, mentions in passing, books that don't mention at all, etc. No better sources to be found. WikiDan61 ^ChatMe! _ReadMe!! 17:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Matriculate means to be enrolled at a college or university. Aga Syed Hussain was the first person to pass that examination which was considered as a great achievement those days. Moreover it was important especially for the Muslims of Kashmir who were living in a deplorable condition.Aga belonged to the Shia Minority group which has always been suffering. His achievements have made a great impact on the community in particular and the Muslims of the state at large. Aga syed Hussain opened the gates for other Muslims to study and participate in the exams and enter the civil services. He was the first muslim Judge ( for source please see the official website of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir with its History ) He was also the only Muslim Minister during the Dogra Rule. sources have been given from various book , including History of Kashmir. He has been an inspiration for many civil servants. His Judgments are still being consulted while pronouncing decisions in the High Court. His works and achievements have been published in the famous Urdu Journal that is published in Lahore and Lucknow including kashmir. "Hakim-ul-Ummat. There is also a chapter dedicated to him in the book written in urdu by G Sufi..book Kasheer. Khan Bahadur Aga Syed Hussain was great great-grandfather of the Late American Poet Agha Shahid Ali. The name of Agha Shahid's father Agha Ashraf Ali is already mentioned in the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zehnaseeb ( talk • contribs)

Yes, we all know what matriculate means. But as I read the article, Syed Hussain was the first Kashmiri ever to matriculate, which is an astonishing claim, and requires exceptional proof. As to the claim of being the "first Muslim judge", he apparently was one of the three founding judges of High Court of Judicature in J&K, but the cited source does not mention him being the first Muslim judge. Surely, Islam had existed for over 1200 years when Hussain was seated as a judge; there must have been Muslim judges before him, if not necessarily in Kashmir, which did not appear to have a judicial system prior to Hussain's appointment. WikiDan61 ^ChatMe! _ReadMe!! 19:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Yes indeed Sayed Hussain was the first Kashmiri to Matriculate. With due Respects i would like to mention that the sources are many. including noted writer Amitav Ghosh who has written a chapter in his book "The Imam and the Indian, Chapter name "the Ghat of the only World". there is a mention of how Agha Shahid's Great Grandfather Aga Syed Hussain rose to prominence after passing his Matriculation. Also there is mention about this in the book Kasheer by G M Din Sofi, An urdu journal "Hakim Ul ummat" mentions the same. Certainly Sayed hussain was not the only and First judge in the History of Islam. The article specifically mentions the First Muslim judge and Minister in Dogra Rule. with due respects one has to study the History of Kashmir during the Dogra rule. Historians alone can understand the importance of a Kashmiri Muslim reaching to prominence. Book by Mridu Rai. "Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects" is enough example. another Book The Kashmir of SM Abdullah by C Bilquees Taseer. Kashmiris Muslims during the Dogras were the most suppressed. Begar was a common thing. this article mentions how a muslim rose to prominence despite the hatred towards the Muslim Community at that time when nobody could see the light of a School, Education..not to talk of entering services of the Autocratic Maharaja. it might help the students of History in understandg how few Muslims managed to make a mark despite all odds in the small state of the Indian Continent, though an independent country during that period. With Best wishes.thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali1872 ( talk • contribs) 20:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC) reply

there are many pages and articles on wikipedia only which say that Aga Syed Hussain was the first Kashmiri to pass the matriculation (In Kashmir) and later ved lal zutshi was the second. (without relying on the persons Family Blog etc). The matriculation pertains only with respect to the state of j&k being ruled by the Maharaja then. Moreover he was the first Muslim Judge of the state of Jammu and Kashmir..not the first ever Muslim judge. Nobody claims that. So this article can be helpful in reseach for those who study Kashmiri History especially History of the Muslims during Dogra Rule.Moreover Sayed Hussain descends from the eighth Shi'te Imam . Quiet an Important figure for the Minority Shia Muslims of the state in particular and the whole country in general. please let me know if i can add or remove some elements in order to improve the article. or add more resources ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zehnaseeb ( talk • contribs)

@ Zehnaseeb: Could you please point out which articles on Wikipedia point out this fact. I find that his name is only mentioned on two pages in the entire encyclopedia: the page presently under discussion, and the article about the Jammu and Kashmir High Court. Whether or not the article can be helpful in anyone's research about the history of J&K or the history of Muslims under the Dogra dynasty relies largely on whether the information in the article is reliably sourced. Several books have been mentioned in the arguments above; I don't have access to them and cannot evaluate the relevance. Perhaps others familiar with the history of the region will come to our aid. WikiDan61 ^ChatMe! _ReadMe!! 21:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Delete; not noteable, no sources, lots of seemingly (historical) hoax and self-made claims. - LouisAragon ( talk) 02:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. —  JJMC89 ( T· C) 02:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. —  JJMC89 ( T· C) 02:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Please refer to the link already mentioned from the chapter "The ghat of the only world" from the book Imam and the Indians- by writer Amitav Ghosh..a review published in the Outlook Magazine of the book,, also https://books.google.co.in/books?isbn=0547527136. one can easily Google it. He has mentioned how Aga Syed Hussain managed to go on a tonga from srinagar to Rawalpindi to appear for the matriculation exams and how he passed it for the first time.in the chapter Poet Agha Shahid Ali has also claimed this and nobody so far has contested his claim that Aga Syed Hussain was not the first matriculate. what more authentic source can be found than that of an internationally acclaimed poet. This article certainly would have been of help to many. however if you think it is not supported by enough substantive and authoritative proofs you may delete it. We do not want to Impose things which are not in accordance with your policies. as far as the other families of kashmir are concerned.. This man Aga syed hussain commands a great deal of respect and has been praised by many people including the Founding father of Pakistan M.A.Jinnah. i am quoting this all from the Urdu Book Sources which are authentic and i have relied on them in my sources which you couldnt locate unfortunately. rest All your prerogative.

• Comment. A starting point is "Khan Sahib Aga Syed Hussain was one of the first appointments to the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir in 1928. [1]". If the article used inline citation to reliable sources instead of just listing a lot of unreliable family and hobby sites at the end, it might stand a better chance of survival. I also suggest, if the page is kept, that it is moved to his name. Article titles do not usually include honorifics, etc. DrKiernan ( talk) 07:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

• Comment. It's packed with such WP violating material. It's just too much and too much of a waste of time to mention all errors. For example, it furthermore claims that he's a descendant of a 8th century Arab imam ( Ali al-Ridha), an Iranian bureaucrat from the medieval era, and Turkish warriors from Anatolia also from the medieval time. Pure historical hoaxes on all possible fronts. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. This article should 100% be deleted by these reasons. We can't leave such bogus material on an encyclopedia. Even if he wasn't an unknown person. - LouisAragon ( talk) 17:33, 28 August 2015 (UTC) reply

@ LouisAragon: you claim to be so well read about medieval history. You claim to be of Russian , Iranian and what not heritage which prima facia sounds a hoax ! Don't want to discuss that anyway. Before using your limited intellectual skills you must study the History of Kashmir. The fact the one cannot find much about Aga syed Hussain is that much of the work is in Urdu literature and unfortunately it hasn't been digitalised. All we wanted the younger generation to be aware about him and his achievements. Regarding his lineage your approval is not what we need. You can only be good at what you think you are and close your eyes and think that's all and nothing exists beyond that. The family has all the proof with pictures and family trees from both paternal and maternal sides and contacts with relatives in Iran and other parts of the world. The family heritage is safe. And is not a hoax which you believe on all possible fronts. I suggest you Go and search for your lineage and see to it what you claim is a hoax or truth. You are not a historian. Nobody is perfect. Before calling it impossible and hoax you should have asked if there is any proof of the lineage which the family does have but your Dense intellect made you jump the gun. I pity your wisdom of concluding without proper research and questioning!

Aga syed hussain was certainly one of the first three judges of the High court of Jammu and kashmir when it was established , but he was also the only Muslim among the three . and at that time it was quiet an extraordinary thing when Muslim were not even literate. I hope recent changes supported by proof which is included with reference links is of some help. please let me know if any other changes can be made. I would emphasize that the sole aim to create this page was the general awareness about how a Muslim rose to a high rank in the administration when Musilms in kashmir were suffering badly and there was no education. There is no intention to violate any of the policy and rules of Wikipedia. we respect the rules and would abide by the same as and when directed by your good offices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zehnaseeb ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

@ Zehnaseeb: It is a matter of original research to claim that having a Muslim on this court is "extraordinary". The sources do not support that, so that is your own interpretation. WikiDan61 ^ChatMe! _ReadMe!! 13:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

I have tried to make necessary corrections from the page of Aga Syed Hussain. i have also added some reference links. please let me know if more changes are necessary. thanku for your time and valuable advices. i appreciate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali1872 ( talk • contribs) 16:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Please let me know if the article is still in the list of the ones which might be deleted or has it been approved. The notice for deletion is already there ??? Is the article still being considered for deletion or has it been approved??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zehnaseeb ( talk • contribs) 07:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC) reply

It is still being considered. An administrator will remove the notice when the discussion is closed. DrKiernan ( talk) 08:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Thanku. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali1872 ( talk • contribs) 11:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC) reply

• Comment Since the article's nomination, numerous links have been added, but none of them mention Aga Syed Hussain in any detail (many not at all). As yet we have not been given any evidence that he was ever the subject of substantial coverage in any book, magazine, or newspaper. WikiDan61 ^ChatMe! _ReadMe!! 21:25, 29 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC) reply

Internationally acclaimed poet Agha Shahid Ali has himself testified to this...substantiated by the writer Amitav Ghosh in his book Imam and the Indians.what more could have been an evidence. there are books but they are in Urdu... if u wish we can send you page snaps and chapter names and all details..but you wont find those books online. thats what we can do. rest its your prerogative ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali1872 ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Terrible article, but he certainly seems to have been senior enough. A high court judge is a big deal for a start. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC) reply
• Delete - as per nom. WikiDan61's points made in his above comment are also spot on. Searches turned up nothing to show this person meets the notability requirements. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Delete: too obscure and non-notable. Quis separabit? 19:06, 2 September 2015 (UTC) reply

keep . One cannot say the person is non notable just because there isn't much on the Internet. Let those judge who are well versed with the History of the region especially Indian Kashmir. He was the first matriculate and a first judge which is quiet evident from the interview link of late American poet Agha Shahid Ali and the website of the High Court of Jammu and Kashmir. No doubt about that. As far as the lineage goes there is enough evidence from the Urdu literature with which the you seem so less acquainted with and which certainly is not digitalised. There are family trees and old pictures which substantiate the text and if needed Wikipedia will be provided with that as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zehnaseeb ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Comment The interview with Agha Shahid Ali has to be taken for what it's worth: the claim that Aga Sayed Hussain was the first matriculate from Kashmir comes from his son, who cannot really be counted as an authority on the subject. Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As there is an article about Richard Theodore Greener (the first black graduate of Harvard University), I suspect that being the first Kashmiri to matriculate at any university would be sufficient claim of notability, if it can be independently proven. But if not...

Hussain's position as one of the first judges on the High Court of J&K might, in itself, make him notable, but that would reduce the biography to essentially one sentence. As to Hussain's lineage, this is largely irrelevant. Many people can claim significant lineage throughout the Middle East (and for that matter, in any other part of the world). Family trees grow large and all-encompassing as one proceeds through just a few generations. Such claims have little relevance in terms of a person's own notability. WikiDan61 ^ChatMe! _ReadMe!! 12:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC) reply

We have already provided with the names of Urdu journal Hakeem Ul Ummat where an article was published about Aga Syed Hussain. but the Journal is not on the internet and not digitalised. Moreover it is in Urdu. We leave it for Wikipedia to decide. We have provided with our best and and trying . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali1872 ( talk • contribs) 15:11, 3 September 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep passes WP:NPOL #1 : "Politicians and judges who have held international, national or sub-national (statewide/provincewide) office" which de facto confers inherent notability, see also WP:POLOUTCOMES. There can't be any doubt (there are sources in the article, and I found book sources on-line) that he was a judge on the highest court in what is now an Indian state and wa sthen a princely state (first level below national). The shape of the article is irrelevant when it comes to establish notability. The subject was also a state minister, and there is a claim to have been a member of the Jammu & Kashmir Legislature which would also pass NPOL but needs verification. Kraxler ( talk) 23:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC) reply
• Keep - Subjects meets the notability criteria WP:NPOL; another thing, there is no end to the arguments. — CutestPenguin ^Hangout 14:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.