- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. A number of plausible sources in high-quality publications (New Yorker, Village Voice, NY Times, and some books published by reputable publishers), but analysis shows them all to be of insufficient depth to meet WP:NMUSIC -- RoySmith (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
- Joshua Fried ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
fails WP:NMUSIC the only sources are 2 affiliaited bios. Could have been speedily deleted but the vague claims to having worked with notable artists could be seen as a claim to significance. Nothing found in a WP:BEFORE search that isn't user generated Dom from Paris ( talk) 16:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris ( talk) 16:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: his "work" with Chaka Khan and Ofra Haza only amounts to remixing one single by each singer in the 1980s... any claims to notability are going to rest with his long working association with They Might Be Giants, or his solo career. He is discussed in Kyle Gann's book American Music in the Twentieth Century [1], he has an entry in the International Who's Who of Popular Music [2], there's a mention here in an article in the New Statesman [3], and there may be some more mentions in print media from the 1980s and 90s... I'm not sure there's enough here to convince anyone of his notability, but he is certainly not a nobody. Richard3120 ( talk) 19:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- The mentions in Gann's book are at best passing mentions and the
International Who's Who in Music is a paid-for vanity publication created by
International Biographical Centre which is one of the most prominent creators of
Who's Who scams. the New Statesman is interesting but is really an anecdote where the writer describes meeting Fried (amongst others) at an artists' retreat and does not concern his work as such. His work with They Might be giants seems to have had little impact, I can only find user generated sources that talk about this notably here
[4] and their own sources are all affiliated to Fried. Unfortunately notability is not
WP:INHERITED. I saw that he wrote the lyrics to a song from one of their albums but this doesn't seem to have been a notable song (as per WP). Seeing the claims in his bio I very much doubt that there was much significant coverage in the 80s and 90s
Dom from Paris (
talk) 10:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
- @
Domdeparis: I'm not overly convinced either, hence my not voting keep. I just mention those sources so that other editors can view them and make up their minds on this AfD nomination.
Richard3120 (
talk) 00:22, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, that's why I looked at them to see if they are sufficient to show notability and allow me to withdraw the nomination so I did and posted my opinion. Dom from Paris ( talk) 08:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- @
Domdeparis: I'm not overly convinced either, hence my not voting keep. I just mention those sources so that other editors can view them and make up their minds on this AfD nomination.
Richard3120 (
talk) 00:22, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- The mentions in Gann's book are at best passing mentions and the
International Who's Who in Music is a paid-for vanity publication created by
International Biographical Centre which is one of the most prominent creators of
Who's Who scams. the New Statesman is interesting but is really an anecdote where the writer describes meeting Fried (amongst others) at an artists' retreat and does not concern his work as such. His work with They Might be giants seems to have had little impact, I can only find user generated sources that talk about this notably here
[4] and their own sources are all affiliated to Fried. Unfortunately notability is not
WP:INHERITED. I saw that he wrote the lyrics to a song from one of their albums but this doesn't seem to have been a notable song (as per WP). Seeing the claims in his bio I very much doubt that there was much significant coverage in the 80s and 90s
Dom from Paris (
talk) 10:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: Surprised there aren't sources that turn up by googling. He was reasonably well-known, accomplished, and respected back in the days I was involved in the industry. He may have the disadvantage of making his splash in the pre-internet age. Admittedly, his press was mostly niche stuff or industry related. If I tried hard enough I might find sources among my older printed materials but don't really have the time to go digging. ShelbyMarion ( talk) 13:53, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Keep the substantial coverage in the American Music book and other sources such as The New Yorker - Volume 72, Issues 30-36 - Page 14 establishes notability. He's been a collaborator with TMBG over 3 decades, has ooened for them, and has also had a successful solo career with his headphone gig and other acts. FloridaArmy ( talk) 15:13, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hi do you have a link for that or may be an extract? What does the article say about him? could you supply a quote?
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also do you have any RS about his collaboration with They Might Be Giants. I can only find user generated content, also information about the extent of his collaboration. Simply having played with them even over a long period (but I think it was on and off) doesn't make him notable because don't forget that notability is not inherited. Simply being successful doen't make him notable. You might want to check out
WP:NMUSICIAN and point out which criteria he meets.
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I don't have time to hunt it down at the mo but any good library in NYC should be able to provide access. He's akso noted in a variety of sources, often as a composer, for example "joshua+fried"+New+Yorker&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtjdCZ8ILaAhUEMawKHSeLAKcQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q="joshua%20fried"%20New%20Yorker&f=false here and in The Cambridge Companion to John Cage https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1139826395 David Nicholls - 2002 "Joshua Fried has used radios andrecordings in a live performance idiom. In his early days of performing in New York's East Village, he wouldrun several radios or prerecorded tracks simultaneously, andtrigger sounds from them byhitting piezoelectric discs with drumsticks; the faster he would drum,the more continuously the sound would .." FloridaArmy ( talk) 16:43, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also do you have any RS about his collaboration with They Might Be Giants. I can only find user generated content, also information about the extent of his collaboration. Simply having played with them even over a long period (but I think it was on and off) doesn't make him notable because don't forget that notability is not inherited. Simply being successful doen't make him notable. You might want to check out
WP:NMUSICIAN and point out which criteria he meets.
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hi do you have a link for that or may be an extract? What does the article say about him? could you supply a quote?
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also "Joshua+fried"+The+New+Yorker&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivwcfL8oLaAhVRM6wKHZdtAKkQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q="Joshua%20fried"%20The%20New%20Yorker&f=false here and Ear - Volume 15 - Page 8 https://books.google.com/books?id=9AgwAQAAIAAJ
1990 "Joshua Fried Tape-loops, the famous musical shoes, and computer-assisted (!) grooves from a formerly steadfast king of analog. Guest vocalist Iris Rose and others will imitate unexpected sounds played over headphones" FloridaArmy ( talk) 16:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- And from Array - Volume 16 - Page 3
https://books.google.com/books?id=eOQ5AQAAIAAJ 1996 "Joshua Fried premiered a major work at The Kitchen, New York City, November 7- 10. The piece, a collaboration with renowned choreographer Douglas Dunn, employs *headphone-driven performance* — requiring singer/actors to respond instantly to pre-recorded vocals and directives heard over wireless headphones. The collaboration is funded in part by the NEA, New York State Council on the Arts, The Mary Flagler Cary Charitable Trust, Meet The Composer, American ..." FloridaArmy ( talk) 16:54, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I checked out the sources you provided and The Cambridge companion to John cage is a passing mention, In the The New Music Theater it is one line in a book that has literally hundreds of people mentioned so neither are in-depth. The Ear is an announcement for a concert he played and not a review so not useful for proving notability, The Life and Death on the New York Dance Floor book only seems to mention him in the preface as having provided information by email to the author but is not listed as having been interviewed by the author. The Array is a magazine for the ICMA and he is mentioned in the section "Members news" so this is affiliated and supplied by the subject himself and seems to be just a what's on notice. As you say the New Yorker article establishes proof of his notability I really think that a substantial quote from this article is what is needed. Dom from Paris ( talk) 17:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:TOOSOON / WP:NMUSIC fail. Insuffient sourcing for stand-alone notability. A directory listing, not an article, with promo copy such as: "...worked side-by-side with multiple recording artists, on several different published albums. He's also won several fellowships and residencies as well as two large commissions." K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - I hunted for sourcing as well, and could only find this this hodgepodge of info[ [5]], which included a transcript of a Village Voice article[ [6]], a one line mention in the NY Times[ [7]], and what looks like his own bio submitted by him.[ [8]]. He garnered some attention, in the early days of the Internet, but not enough to pass WP:GNG. The other offline sources have been discussed above, so there's really no biographical info that one would expect from a sufficiently notable performer. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 22:37, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. A number of plausible sources in high-quality publications (New Yorker, Village Voice, NY Times, and some books published by reputable publishers), but analysis shows them all to be of insufficient depth to meet WP:NMUSIC -- RoySmith (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
- Joshua Fried ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
fails WP:NMUSIC the only sources are 2 affiliaited bios. Could have been speedily deleted but the vague claims to having worked with notable artists could be seen as a claim to significance. Nothing found in a WP:BEFORE search that isn't user generated Dom from Paris ( talk) 16:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris ( talk) 16:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: his "work" with Chaka Khan and Ofra Haza only amounts to remixing one single by each singer in the 1980s... any claims to notability are going to rest with his long working association with They Might Be Giants, or his solo career. He is discussed in Kyle Gann's book American Music in the Twentieth Century [1], he has an entry in the International Who's Who of Popular Music [2], there's a mention here in an article in the New Statesman [3], and there may be some more mentions in print media from the 1980s and 90s... I'm not sure there's enough here to convince anyone of his notability, but he is certainly not a nobody. Richard3120 ( talk) 19:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
- The mentions in Gann's book are at best passing mentions and the
International Who's Who in Music is a paid-for vanity publication created by
International Biographical Centre which is one of the most prominent creators of
Who's Who scams. the New Statesman is interesting but is really an anecdote where the writer describes meeting Fried (amongst others) at an artists' retreat and does not concern his work as such. His work with They Might be giants seems to have had little impact, I can only find user generated sources that talk about this notably here
[4] and their own sources are all affiliated to Fried. Unfortunately notability is not
WP:INHERITED. I saw that he wrote the lyrics to a song from one of their albums but this doesn't seem to have been a notable song (as per WP). Seeing the claims in his bio I very much doubt that there was much significant coverage in the 80s and 90s
Dom from Paris (
talk) 10:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
- @
Domdeparis: I'm not overly convinced either, hence my not voting keep. I just mention those sources so that other editors can view them and make up their minds on this AfD nomination.
Richard3120 (
talk) 00:22, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, that's why I looked at them to see if they are sufficient to show notability and allow me to withdraw the nomination so I did and posted my opinion. Dom from Paris ( talk) 08:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- @
Domdeparis: I'm not overly convinced either, hence my not voting keep. I just mention those sources so that other editors can view them and make up their minds on this AfD nomination.
Richard3120 (
talk) 00:22, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- The mentions in Gann's book are at best passing mentions and the
International Who's Who in Music is a paid-for vanity publication created by
International Biographical Centre which is one of the most prominent creators of
Who's Who scams. the New Statesman is interesting but is really an anecdote where the writer describes meeting Fried (amongst others) at an artists' retreat and does not concern his work as such. His work with They Might be giants seems to have had little impact, I can only find user generated sources that talk about this notably here
[4] and their own sources are all affiliated to Fried. Unfortunately notability is not
WP:INHERITED. I saw that he wrote the lyrics to a song from one of their albums but this doesn't seem to have been a notable song (as per WP). Seeing the claims in his bio I very much doubt that there was much significant coverage in the 80s and 90s
Dom from Paris (
talk) 10:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: Surprised there aren't sources that turn up by googling. He was reasonably well-known, accomplished, and respected back in the days I was involved in the industry. He may have the disadvantage of making his splash in the pre-internet age. Admittedly, his press was mostly niche stuff or industry related. If I tried hard enough I might find sources among my older printed materials but don't really have the time to go digging. ShelbyMarion ( talk) 13:53, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Keep the substantial coverage in the American Music book and other sources such as The New Yorker - Volume 72, Issues 30-36 - Page 14 establishes notability. He's been a collaborator with TMBG over 3 decades, has ooened for them, and has also had a successful solo career with his headphone gig and other acts. FloridaArmy ( talk) 15:13, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hi do you have a link for that or may be an extract? What does the article say about him? could you supply a quote?
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also do you have any RS about his collaboration with They Might Be Giants. I can only find user generated content, also information about the extent of his collaboration. Simply having played with them even over a long period (but I think it was on and off) doesn't make him notable because don't forget that notability is not inherited. Simply being successful doen't make him notable. You might want to check out
WP:NMUSICIAN and point out which criteria he meets.
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I don't have time to hunt it down at the mo but any good library in NYC should be able to provide access. He's akso noted in a variety of sources, often as a composer, for example "joshua+fried"+New+Yorker&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtjdCZ8ILaAhUEMawKHSeLAKcQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q="joshua%20fried"%20New%20Yorker&f=false here and in The Cambridge Companion to John Cage https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1139826395 David Nicholls - 2002 "Joshua Fried has used radios andrecordings in a live performance idiom. In his early days of performing in New York's East Village, he wouldrun several radios or prerecorded tracks simultaneously, andtrigger sounds from them byhitting piezoelectric discs with drumsticks; the faster he would drum,the more continuously the sound would .." FloridaArmy ( talk) 16:43, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also do you have any RS about his collaboration with They Might Be Giants. I can only find user generated content, also information about the extent of his collaboration. Simply having played with them even over a long period (but I think it was on and off) doesn't make him notable because don't forget that notability is not inherited. Simply being successful doen't make him notable. You might want to check out
WP:NMUSICIAN and point out which criteria he meets.
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hi do you have a link for that or may be an extract? What does the article say about him? could you supply a quote?
Dom from Paris (
talk) 16:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also "Joshua+fried"+The+New+Yorker&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivwcfL8oLaAhVRM6wKHZdtAKkQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q="Joshua%20fried"%20The%20New%20Yorker&f=false here and Ear - Volume 15 - Page 8 https://books.google.com/books?id=9AgwAQAAIAAJ
1990 "Joshua Fried Tape-loops, the famous musical shoes, and computer-assisted (!) grooves from a formerly steadfast king of analog. Guest vocalist Iris Rose and others will imitate unexpected sounds played over headphones" FloridaArmy ( talk) 16:51, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- And from Array - Volume 16 - Page 3
https://books.google.com/books?id=eOQ5AQAAIAAJ 1996 "Joshua Fried premiered a major work at The Kitchen, New York City, November 7- 10. The piece, a collaboration with renowned choreographer Douglas Dunn, employs *headphone-driven performance* — requiring singer/actors to respond instantly to pre-recorded vocals and directives heard over wireless headphones. The collaboration is funded in part by the NEA, New York State Council on the Arts, The Mary Flagler Cary Charitable Trust, Meet The Composer, American ..." FloridaArmy ( talk) 16:54, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I checked out the sources you provided and The Cambridge companion to John cage is a passing mention, In the The New Music Theater it is one line in a book that has literally hundreds of people mentioned so neither are in-depth. The Ear is an announcement for a concert he played and not a review so not useful for proving notability, The Life and Death on the New York Dance Floor book only seems to mention him in the preface as having provided information by email to the author but is not listed as having been interviewed by the author. The Array is a magazine for the ICMA and he is mentioned in the section "Members news" so this is affiliated and supplied by the subject himself and seems to be just a what's on notice. As you say the New Yorker article establishes proof of his notability I really think that a substantial quote from this article is what is needed. Dom from Paris ( talk) 17:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:TOOSOON / WP:NMUSIC fail. Insuffient sourcing for stand-alone notability. A directory listing, not an article, with promo copy such as: "...worked side-by-side with multiple recording artists, on several different published albums. He's also won several fellowships and residencies as well as two large commissions." K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - I hunted for sourcing as well, and could only find this this hodgepodge of info[ [5]], which included a transcript of a Village Voice article[ [6]], a one line mention in the NY Times[ [7]], and what looks like his own bio submitted by him.[ [8]]. He garnered some attention, in the early days of the Internet, but not enough to pass WP:GNG. The other offline sources have been discussed above, so there's really no biographical info that one would expect from a sufficiently notable performer. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 22:37, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.