- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to 1998 United States Capitol shooting. Those suggesting keep have not explained why WP:BIO1E does not apply making the weighted consensus clearer. Barkeep49 ( talk) 02:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Jacob Chestnut
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- Jacob Chestnut ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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Per recent talk page discussions at Talk:April 2021 United States Capitol car attack/Archive 1#Separate article for William Evans (police officer), I have decided to create this AfD discussion to settle the fresh debate on whether laying in honor at the United States Capitol is basis for notability on its own face. A previous AfD discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Gibson (police officer), judged that laying in honor at the Capitol is indeed a basis for notability, but that decision was made in 2007 and is subject to change over an extended period of time. Personally, I do believe the decision is strongly outdated and not a basis for notability. Outside of that, there are WP:SPLIT and WP:BLP1E concerns as well. Love of Corey ( talk) 00:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - I am also nominating the following related page because it is also closely related to the discussion about articles being created on the sole basis that laying in honor at the Capitol is cause for notability:
- Love of Corey ( talk) 00:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - Pinging the following editors from Talk:April 2021 United States Capitol car attack/Archive 1#Separate article for William Evans (police officer) for participation: @ Gildir:, @ WWGB:, @ WikiVirusC:, @ Berchanhimez:, @ Edge3:, @ XavierItzm:, @ Slywriter:, @ 148.75.194.41:, @ Coasterghost:. Love of Corey ( talk) 00:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Merge both to
1998 United States Capitol shooting — Now that we're discussing this, and potentially overturning the 2007 AfD, I agree that the articles for both Chestnut and Gibson should be merged. All of the pertinent information can be included in
1998 United States Capitol shooting, and there are no
WP:LENGTH concerns for this article. I should point out that
WP:BLP1E does not apply because Chestnut and Gibson died a long time ago, so
WP:BIO1E is the more applicable policy. Per WP:BIO1E,
The general rule is to cover the event, not the person.
Also see WP:VICTIM, which states,A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person.
And, while Brian Sicknick is not nominated here for deletion, I anticipate that it may be discussed. This matter is distinguishable from Sicknick because 2021 storming of the United States Capitol was such a complex event, and Sicknick's homicide investigation remains ongoing. Sicknick's article should remain separate, per WP:LENGTH. Edge3 ( talk) 01:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC) - Merge to '98 shooting article. They are both known as a result of the one even that caused their deaths and the resulting laying in honor. Between both articles there really isn't even much to even merge. Shooting incident and some of Legacy/Honors are already included in main article. The brief bios on both subjects is also contained in shooting article, with a bit more info actually there. For instance Gibson favorite team being Red Sox and them having a moment of silence isn't even in Gibson's article but is in shooting's. WikiVirus C (talk) 02:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect per
WP:BLP1E - these are clear cut cases, and unfortunately, some people have this idea that there is some notability guideline other than
WP:GNG - per
WP:SUSTAINED,
Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability
andIf reliable sources cover a person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual
. Even a subject notability guideline which presumes notability does not trump BLP1E and GNG. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 02:32, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
-
WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because the subjects are deceased. Do you intend to cite
WP:BIO1E?
Edge3 (
talk) 14:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Kind of. BLP1E still applies to Brian Sicknick (as he is recently deceased), you're correct that BIO1E is the more appropriate guidance for the two being considered here. That being said, they're basically two methods of getting to the same conclusion - people notable only for bursts of coverage from their participation/involvement in one event are generally not meriting standalone articles. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 17:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
-
WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because the subjects are deceased. Do you intend to cite
WP:BIO1E?
Edge3 (
talk) 14:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington, D.C.-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 05:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm referring to the article that is currently nominated for deletion.
KidAd •
SPEAK 05:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- There are two articles currently under discussion: Jacob Chestnut and John Gibson (police officer). Do you agree that both articles should be treated in the same way? Edge3 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm referring to the article that is currently nominated for deletion.
KidAd •
SPEAK 05:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 05:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. If this is a double nomination (and it appears to be because both AFD notices on both pages redirect to this page), I would suggest making this clearer to people by including the link to the 2nd article at the top of this AFD using the {{ la}} and {{ Find sources AFD}} templates. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 20:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I did everything the WP:MULTIAFD process told me to do. I'm not sure what else I had to do to make this distinction. Love of Corey ( talk) 00:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete This artticle fails BIO1E. He died before Wikipedia was even inagurated, so I think BLP cannot apply by any stretch of the imagination. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:SIGCOV. We need to consider our own unconscious bias.
Bearian (
talk) 01:25, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Bearian, you may wish to note that even SIGCOV states that it is a "presumption" of notability, and that BIO1E trumps that by being more specific. Furthermore, suggesting that we keep an article primarily because of "unconscious bias" (without even saying what that bias is towards/against) reeks of attempting to use Wikipedia to prove a point. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 03:28, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- What bias? Care to elaborate? Either way, bias has nothing to do with this. I've already cited a couple of substantial Wikipedia policies. Love of Corey ( talk) 07:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment A related AFD has been filed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Howard Charles Liebengood. Edge3 ( talk) 03:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete his death doesn't appear to have any significance seeing as it appears to have just been a random shooting. Even if his death was notable, BIO1E would apply. Kind regards, Willbb234 Talk (please {{ ping}} me in replies) 17:32, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 07:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- I have acknowledged 1998 United States Capitol shooting, although this refers to the shooting of both officers and the event in whole. Willbb234 Talk (please {{ ping}} me in replies) 17:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 07:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:SIGCOV and
WP:GNG, also a
State Funeral is very significant and deserving of an article.
Yousef Raz (
talk) 04:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- In case this particular editor's participation is questioned, I just want to disclose that I encouraged Yousef Raz to participate in this AFD. Shortly after my comment, WWGB raised a WP:Canvassing concern, which is currently viewable on my talk page along with my response. If WWGB or anyone else has any questions on why I encouraged Yousef Raz to participate in this discussion, I'd be happy to answer them. Edge3 ( talk) 04:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to 1998 United States Capitol shooting. Those suggesting keep have not explained why WP:BIO1E does not apply making the weighted consensus clearer. Barkeep49 ( talk) 02:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Jacob Chestnut
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Jacob Chestnut ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Per recent talk page discussions at Talk:April 2021 United States Capitol car attack/Archive 1#Separate article for William Evans (police officer), I have decided to create this AfD discussion to settle the fresh debate on whether laying in honor at the United States Capitol is basis for notability on its own face. A previous AfD discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Gibson (police officer), judged that laying in honor at the Capitol is indeed a basis for notability, but that decision was made in 2007 and is subject to change over an extended period of time. Personally, I do believe the decision is strongly outdated and not a basis for notability. Outside of that, there are WP:SPLIT and WP:BLP1E concerns as well. Love of Corey ( talk) 00:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - I am also nominating the following related page because it is also closely related to the discussion about articles being created on the sole basis that laying in honor at the Capitol is cause for notability:
- Love of Corey ( talk) 00:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - Pinging the following editors from Talk:April 2021 United States Capitol car attack/Archive 1#Separate article for William Evans (police officer) for participation: @ Gildir:, @ WWGB:, @ WikiVirusC:, @ Berchanhimez:, @ Edge3:, @ XavierItzm:, @ Slywriter:, @ 148.75.194.41:, @ Coasterghost:. Love of Corey ( talk) 00:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Merge both to
1998 United States Capitol shooting — Now that we're discussing this, and potentially overturning the 2007 AfD, I agree that the articles for both Chestnut and Gibson should be merged. All of the pertinent information can be included in
1998 United States Capitol shooting, and there are no
WP:LENGTH concerns for this article. I should point out that
WP:BLP1E does not apply because Chestnut and Gibson died a long time ago, so
WP:BIO1E is the more applicable policy. Per WP:BIO1E,
The general rule is to cover the event, not the person.
Also see WP:VICTIM, which states,A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person.
And, while Brian Sicknick is not nominated here for deletion, I anticipate that it may be discussed. This matter is distinguishable from Sicknick because 2021 storming of the United States Capitol was such a complex event, and Sicknick's homicide investigation remains ongoing. Sicknick's article should remain separate, per WP:LENGTH. Edge3 ( talk) 01:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC) - Merge to '98 shooting article. They are both known as a result of the one even that caused their deaths and the resulting laying in honor. Between both articles there really isn't even much to even merge. Shooting incident and some of Legacy/Honors are already included in main article. The brief bios on both subjects is also contained in shooting article, with a bit more info actually there. For instance Gibson favorite team being Red Sox and them having a moment of silence isn't even in Gibson's article but is in shooting's. WikiVirus C (talk) 02:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect per
WP:BLP1E - these are clear cut cases, and unfortunately, some people have this idea that there is some notability guideline other than
WP:GNG - per
WP:SUSTAINED,
Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability
andIf reliable sources cover a person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having a biographical article on that individual
. Even a subject notability guideline which presumes notability does not trump BLP1E and GNG. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 02:32, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
-
WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because the subjects are deceased. Do you intend to cite
WP:BIO1E?
Edge3 (
talk) 14:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Kind of. BLP1E still applies to Brian Sicknick (as he is recently deceased), you're correct that BIO1E is the more appropriate guidance for the two being considered here. That being said, they're basically two methods of getting to the same conclusion - people notable only for bursts of coverage from their participation/involvement in one event are generally not meriting standalone articles. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 17:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
-
WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because the subjects are deceased. Do you intend to cite
WP:BIO1E?
Edge3 (
talk) 14:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington, D.C.-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 05:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm referring to the article that is currently nominated for deletion.
KidAd •
SPEAK 05:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- There are two articles currently under discussion: Jacob Chestnut and John Gibson (police officer). Do you agree that both articles should be treated in the same way? Edge3 ( talk) 19:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I'm referring to the article that is currently nominated for deletion.
KidAd •
SPEAK 05:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 05:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. If this is a double nomination (and it appears to be because both AFD notices on both pages redirect to this page), I would suggest making this clearer to people by including the link to the 2nd article at the top of this AFD using the {{ la}} and {{ Find sources AFD}} templates. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 20:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I did everything the WP:MULTIAFD process told me to do. I'm not sure what else I had to do to make this distinction. Love of Corey ( talk) 00:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete This artticle fails BIO1E. He died before Wikipedia was even inagurated, so I think BLP cannot apply by any stretch of the imagination. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:SIGCOV. We need to consider our own unconscious bias.
Bearian (
talk) 01:25, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Bearian, you may wish to note that even SIGCOV states that it is a "presumption" of notability, and that BIO1E trumps that by being more specific. Furthermore, suggesting that we keep an article primarily because of "unconscious bias" (without even saying what that bias is towards/against) reeks of attempting to use Wikipedia to prove a point. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez ( User/ say hi!) 03:28, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- What bias? Care to elaborate? Either way, bias has nothing to do with this. I've already cited a couple of substantial Wikipedia policies. Love of Corey ( talk) 07:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Comment A related AFD has been filed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Howard Charles Liebengood. Edge3 ( talk) 03:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Delete his death doesn't appear to have any significance seeing as it appears to have just been a random shooting. Even if his death was notable, BIO1E would apply. Kind regards, Willbb234 Talk (please {{ ping}} me in replies) 17:32, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 07:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- I have acknowledged 1998 United States Capitol shooting, although this refers to the shooting of both officers and the event in whole. Willbb234 Talk (please {{ ping}} me in replies) 17:34, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're referring to both articles, right?
Love of Corey (
talk) 07:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:SIGCOV and
WP:GNG, also a
State Funeral is very significant and deserving of an article.
Yousef Raz (
talk) 04:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- In case this particular editor's participation is questioned, I just want to disclose that I encouraged Yousef Raz to participate in this AFD. Shortly after my comment, WWGB raised a WP:Canvassing concern, which is currently viewable on my talk page along with my response. If WWGB or anyone else has any questions on why I encouraged Yousef Raz to participate in this discussion, I'd be happy to answer them. Edge3 ( talk) 04:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.