- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia. (non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 18:25, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Horse Trough at 315 S 9th St ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Prod rationale was Non-notable horse through trough. It's old, but that's not enough for notability. A city-level register of historic places is not enough to pass
WP:GEOFEAT. I'm struggling to find coverage for this particular site.
This is just a table listing and almost suggests it doesn't have a name beyond "Horse trough".
Another brief listing. It exists, it's old, and it has a bland name. That's about all that I can find about this, and it doesn't meet
WP:GEOFEAT or
WP:GNG.. Deprodded by
Spinningspark stating that if
Wilson Cary Swann or
Philadelphia Fountain Society existed, it could be merged there. However, GEOFEAT is still not met, GNG is not met, and since neither of the merge targets exist at the moment, to AFD this goes.
Hog Farm
Bacon
01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Create a stub at Philadelphia Fountain Society and merge there. Both the society and its founder, Wilson Cary Swann, are notable. They are both discussed in this book and this one. I'm going to ask for a copy of the listing proposal for this at WP:RX. It might possibly have enough information to write a standalone article, but if not will at least provide a source to confirm that this fountain is one of Swann's society. Spinning Spark 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
KeepCollectively, the horse troughs installed by the Womens Pennsylvania Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (WPSPCA) and others and designated as historical objects by Philadelphia are notable as evidenced by the coverage by WHYY: Curbside refreshment for man and beast, now added at the article. 24.151.56.107 ( talk) 17:00, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia per creation and arguments below. Nice work. 24.151.56.107 ( talk) 15:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Coverage is minimal, and not all historical objects are notable. – dlthewave ☎ 17:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Non notable fountain. Maybe a merge, but I don't know where. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 22:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 11:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. How about rewriting this into an article about all the horse throughs installed by the Society that the anon mentions? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:42, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Redirect to Caroline_Earle_White#Women's_Humane_Society. The fountain itself is not encyclopedic but its origins are. -- Lockley ( talk) 05:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)- Merge, I guess, after new article created, not checking.-- Doncram ( talk) 19:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Was: "Keep", for now at least, unless or until it might be merged into a larger article that covers the topic better. It is apparently an officially designated local historic site (one of 5 horse troughs listed), and the article carries a photo and has other info, is apparently tangible evidence of historical events. Wikipedia is not required to have a separate article about each separate historic site which exists, because many might be better covered as items in a larger list whose article provides context. Discussion above has not clearly identified a merger target article. I don't think AFD process is suitable for forcing development of coverage about persons, societies, places mentioned above. There is substantial info here which should not be lost or made inaccessible/unlikely to be found by future editors. We should defer to future editors actually developing about these topics, who would be free to merge this article without an AFD being necessary. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:18, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:GEOFEAT. What's next, a page for each individual old brick? KidAd talk 00:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Individual old bricks are not generally listed structures whereas this horse trough is. That makes a prima facie case for at least looking at it, and not tossing it out of hand. Spinning Spark 07:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- And it's not out of the question that an individual brick might be notable.
Brick 90136 in the British Museum is discussed in
this book and gets mentioned in quite a few others.
Spinning
Spark
16:45, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I will be happy to vote Delete! in that AfD as well.
KidAd
talk
16:57, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I will be happy to vote Delete! in that AfD as well.
- '
Redirect' or Merge to Caroline_Earle_White#Women's_Humane_Society. I created a rudimentary stub at Philadelphia Fountain Society, Spinningspark, but I don't think this particular fountain was associated with the Fountain Society. Of course, if it was, merge there. Eddie891 Talk Work 12:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)- Merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia, new article. Eddie891 Talk Work 01:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:13, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:13, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Merge to.... somewhere. Hi @ Doncram, Spinningspark, Piotrus, and Eddie891:, responding to your comments above, looks like we agree that this horse trough doesn't reach notability by itself, but there's a history here, touching on multiple people & social issues, worthy of encyclopedic coverage. I've expanded the article with some of that history -- please have a quick look. There were dozens of fountains and many remain. I'm hoping for your opinion about an appropriate new merge target which would cover all such fountains and their sponsors, called something like Philadelphia public drinking fountains, which I would gladly help build. Ideas welcome.-- Lockley ( talk) 20:23, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think that’s a good idea— id help build the draft as well. I would happily merge the Philadelphia fountain society to that article because it seems to be permastubby as is. Let’s get something live at
Draft:Philadelphia public drinking fountains and we can make it into an acceptable merge target?
Eddie891
Talk
Work
20:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Are they drinking fountains or just … fountains? Be a bit difficult to drink from the one on the cover of
[1], surely …
AleatoryPonderings (
talk)
23:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yes this article is specifically about fountains & horse troughs meant for public consumption, not every fountain in Philly. -- Lockley ( talk) 00:05, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I bet I could drink out of that if I tried :P -- Eddie891 Talk Work 00:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I've started to work on a draft, Lockley. Eddie891 Talk Work 02:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Seems like a good solution. Redirect there after it is mainspaced. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Are they drinking fountains or just … fountains? Be a bit difficult to drink from the one on the cover of
[1], surely …
AleatoryPonderings (
talk)
23:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think that’s a good idea— id help build the draft as well. I would happily merge the Philadelphia fountain society to that article because it seems to be permastubby as is. Let’s get something live at
Draft:Philadelphia public drinking fountains and we can make it into an acceptable merge target?
Eddie891
Talk
Work
20:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep A nice, simple, vernacular historic artifact. Can't you go tear down a CSA statue or something? Carptrash ( talk) 21:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep The entry in the register is adequate to establish this as a notable historic feature. Whether it might be consolidated into a more general article about the fountains or the district or the parties involved is a matter of ordinary editing, not deletion, per our policies
WP:ATD,
WP:NOTPAPER and
WP:PRESERVE. Note that policies trump guidelines.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:14, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- @ Andrew Davidson: - The first part of your statement is rather problematic. The entry in the register does not establish notability. WP:GEOFEAT has the treshhold of national register, although in practice, it seems like this gets expanded for most state-level sites in the US. This fountain is on a local register, which falls several rungs below the GEOFEAT standard. Hog Farm Bacon 20:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to
Caroline_Earle_White#Women's_Humane_Society or Philadelphia Fountain SocietyDrinking fountains in Philadelphia. Content in article is largely about the societies. The individual trough is not notable, rather the history of concern for horses and troughs in the city more generally. City-level historical registers do not bestow or establish automatic notability. Reywas92 Talk 20:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC) - Merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia, newly created article as a result of this AfD. -- Lockley ( talk) 04:56, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge (or, basically, redirect) to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia per Eddie and Lockley. We've basically already merged it. AleatoryPonderings ( talk) 05:47, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- @ Doncram, Spinningspark, Piotrus, and Reywas92:, courtesy ping as you all suggested merging somewhere. The newly created Drinking fountains in Philadelphia article may be the best merge target now, though it (obviously didn't exist when the AFD began). Thoughts? Eddie891 Talk Work 11:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- That looks good to me. Spinning Spark 12:56, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia. Good solution. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge with Drinking fountains in Philadelphia: per the above // Timothy :: talk 19:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge as suggested by others. This is an appropriate outcome for something that is NN by itself. By the way, a charity for providing horse troughs in the city of London still exists, but it now provides other water-related benefits, such as boreholes for villages in Africa. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia. (non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 18:25, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Horse Trough at 315 S 9th St ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Prod rationale was Non-notable horse through trough. It's old, but that's not enough for notability. A city-level register of historic places is not enough to pass
WP:GEOFEAT. I'm struggling to find coverage for this particular site.
This is just a table listing and almost suggests it doesn't have a name beyond "Horse trough".
Another brief listing. It exists, it's old, and it has a bland name. That's about all that I can find about this, and it doesn't meet
WP:GEOFEAT or
WP:GNG.. Deprodded by
Spinningspark stating that if
Wilson Cary Swann or
Philadelphia Fountain Society existed, it could be merged there. However, GEOFEAT is still not met, GNG is not met, and since neither of the merge targets exist at the moment, to AFD this goes.
Hog Farm
Bacon
01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm Bacon 01:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Create a stub at Philadelphia Fountain Society and merge there. Both the society and its founder, Wilson Cary Swann, are notable. They are both discussed in this book and this one. I'm going to ask for a copy of the listing proposal for this at WP:RX. It might possibly have enough information to write a standalone article, but if not will at least provide a source to confirm that this fountain is one of Swann's society. Spinning Spark 09:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
KeepCollectively, the horse troughs installed by the Womens Pennsylvania Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (WPSPCA) and others and designated as historical objects by Philadelphia are notable as evidenced by the coverage by WHYY: Curbside refreshment for man and beast, now added at the article. 24.151.56.107 ( talk) 17:00, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia per creation and arguments below. Nice work. 24.151.56.107 ( talk) 15:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Coverage is minimal, and not all historical objects are notable. – dlthewave ☎ 17:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Non notable fountain. Maybe a merge, but I don't know where. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 22:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 11:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. How about rewriting this into an article about all the horse throughs installed by the Society that the anon mentions? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:42, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Redirect to Caroline_Earle_White#Women's_Humane_Society. The fountain itself is not encyclopedic but its origins are. -- Lockley ( talk) 05:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)- Merge, I guess, after new article created, not checking.-- Doncram ( talk) 19:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Was: "Keep", for now at least, unless or until it might be merged into a larger article that covers the topic better. It is apparently an officially designated local historic site (one of 5 horse troughs listed), and the article carries a photo and has other info, is apparently tangible evidence of historical events. Wikipedia is not required to have a separate article about each separate historic site which exists, because many might be better covered as items in a larger list whose article provides context. Discussion above has not clearly identified a merger target article. I don't think AFD process is suitable for forcing development of coverage about persons, societies, places mentioned above. There is substantial info here which should not be lost or made inaccessible/unlikely to be found by future editors. We should defer to future editors actually developing about these topics, who would be free to merge this article without an AFD being necessary. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:18, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:GEOFEAT. What's next, a page for each individual old brick? KidAd talk 00:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Individual old bricks are not generally listed structures whereas this horse trough is. That makes a prima facie case for at least looking at it, and not tossing it out of hand. Spinning Spark 07:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- And it's not out of the question that an individual brick might be notable.
Brick 90136 in the British Museum is discussed in
this book and gets mentioned in quite a few others.
Spinning
Spark
16:45, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I will be happy to vote Delete! in that AfD as well.
KidAd
talk
16:57, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I will be happy to vote Delete! in that AfD as well.
- '
Redirect' or Merge to Caroline_Earle_White#Women's_Humane_Society. I created a rudimentary stub at Philadelphia Fountain Society, Spinningspark, but I don't think this particular fountain was associated with the Fountain Society. Of course, if it was, merge there. Eddie891 Talk Work 12:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)- Merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia, new article. Eddie891 Talk Work 01:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:13, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:13, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Merge to.... somewhere. Hi @ Doncram, Spinningspark, Piotrus, and Eddie891:, responding to your comments above, looks like we agree that this horse trough doesn't reach notability by itself, but there's a history here, touching on multiple people & social issues, worthy of encyclopedic coverage. I've expanded the article with some of that history -- please have a quick look. There were dozens of fountains and many remain. I'm hoping for your opinion about an appropriate new merge target which would cover all such fountains and their sponsors, called something like Philadelphia public drinking fountains, which I would gladly help build. Ideas welcome.-- Lockley ( talk) 20:23, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think that’s a good idea— id help build the draft as well. I would happily merge the Philadelphia fountain society to that article because it seems to be permastubby as is. Let’s get something live at
Draft:Philadelphia public drinking fountains and we can make it into an acceptable merge target?
Eddie891
Talk
Work
20:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Are they drinking fountains or just … fountains? Be a bit difficult to drink from the one on the cover of
[1], surely …
AleatoryPonderings (
talk)
23:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yes this article is specifically about fountains & horse troughs meant for public consumption, not every fountain in Philly. -- Lockley ( talk) 00:05, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I bet I could drink out of that if I tried :P -- Eddie891 Talk Work 00:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I've started to work on a draft, Lockley. Eddie891 Talk Work 02:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Seems like a good solution. Redirect there after it is mainspaced. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Are they drinking fountains or just … fountains? Be a bit difficult to drink from the one on the cover of
[1], surely …
AleatoryPonderings (
talk)
23:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think that’s a good idea— id help build the draft as well. I would happily merge the Philadelphia fountain society to that article because it seems to be permastubby as is. Let’s get something live at
Draft:Philadelphia public drinking fountains and we can make it into an acceptable merge target?
Eddie891
Talk
Work
20:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep A nice, simple, vernacular historic artifact. Can't you go tear down a CSA statue or something? Carptrash ( talk) 21:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep The entry in the register is adequate to establish this as a notable historic feature. Whether it might be consolidated into a more general article about the fountains or the district or the parties involved is a matter of ordinary editing, not deletion, per our policies
WP:ATD,
WP:NOTPAPER and
WP:PRESERVE. Note that policies trump guidelines.
Andrew🐉(
talk)
10:14, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- @ Andrew Davidson: - The first part of your statement is rather problematic. The entry in the register does not establish notability. WP:GEOFEAT has the treshhold of national register, although in practice, it seems like this gets expanded for most state-level sites in the US. This fountain is on a local register, which falls several rungs below the GEOFEAT standard. Hog Farm Bacon 20:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to
Caroline_Earle_White#Women's_Humane_Society or Philadelphia Fountain SocietyDrinking fountains in Philadelphia. Content in article is largely about the societies. The individual trough is not notable, rather the history of concern for horses and troughs in the city more generally. City-level historical registers do not bestow or establish automatic notability. Reywas92 Talk 20:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC) - Merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia, newly created article as a result of this AfD. -- Lockley ( talk) 04:56, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge (or, basically, redirect) to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia per Eddie and Lockley. We've basically already merged it. AleatoryPonderings ( talk) 05:47, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- @ Doncram, Spinningspark, Piotrus, and Reywas92:, courtesy ping as you all suggested merging somewhere. The newly created Drinking fountains in Philadelphia article may be the best merge target now, though it (obviously didn't exist when the AFD began). Thoughts? Eddie891 Talk Work 11:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- That looks good to me. Spinning Spark 12:56, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to Drinking fountains in Philadelphia. Good solution. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge with Drinking fountains in Philadelphia: per the above // Timothy :: talk 19:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Merge as suggested by others. This is an appropriate outcome for something that is NN by itself. By the way, a charity for providing horse troughs in the city of London still exists, but it now provides other water-related benefits, such as boreholes for villages in Africa. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.