- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. While there is a general consensus/concern in the discussion that there may be offline Chinese-language sources that would show notability, efforts to find them have not been successful and the consensus is to delete the article. Aoidh ( talk) 04:41, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
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- Giog ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable game. Unsourced since 2007. Natg 19 ( talk) 19:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Games and Asia. Natg 19 ( talk) 19:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:45, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Weak delete. I concur with the nom. But I'll also ping
User:Bermicourt who has a good record of rescuing articles about card games. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
02:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Giog is a variant of chess played in Malaysia, in which Chinese chess pieces are used and played in a card-like manner. Variations of these games are prevalent in various regions of China and other Southeast Asian nations where Chinese communities reside. After reviewing pertinent materials, I have found that this particular game boasts highly intricate rules and is incredibly engaging. If more comprehensive information in English is included, I believe it can be preserved.
악준동 (
talk)
08:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ 악준동: Can you please provide links to the materials you reviewed? So far our problem is a lack of reliable sources about the topic. — Mx. Granger ( talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- Giog is a variant of chess played in Malaysia, in which Chinese chess pieces are used and played in a card-like manner. Variations of these games are prevalent in various regions of China and other Southeast Asian nations where Chinese communities reside. After reviewing pertinent materials, I have found that this particular game boasts highly intricate rules and is incredibly engaging. If more comprehensive information in English is included, I believe it can be preserved.
악준동 (
talk)
08:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: The title is unusual for a Chinese game. It's definitely not a transliteration of Standard Mandarin, but it might be a transliteration of a one-syllable word in some other variety of Chinese (maybe Hakka?). If the game exists, it's possible the WP:COMMONNAME in English is something else. On Wikidata, the article is linked with zh:打棋摞, which is cited only to offline sources. None of the names listed in that article look likely to be transliterated as "giog". — Mx. Granger ( talk · contribs) 03:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. I can only find two original sources for this game. One is the account at
pagat.com, on which this article appears to be based, and the other is a passing mention in a
book on chess. According to pagat.com "Giog" is a Fujian Chinese romanisation of 爵 ("noble") and refers to the three-piece combination in the game. Giog also goes under other names. It isn't a true card game because it's played with Chinese chess pieces. For me, the jury is out in terms of notability because there is only one rule source. However, I am unable to search for it in Chinese, although I see that the Chinese language article linked to this one cites 3 book sources. So perhaps we should hold fire until a Chinese speaker can check it out (the original author isn't currently active on English Wikipedia).
Bermicourt (
talk)
11:43, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. We should be very careful concluding sources don't exist when dealing with non-English languages, until a speaker of said language comments about BEFORE.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
01:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: I think we should get clarity on the sources mentioned above.
- // Timothy :: talk 20:17, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. We should be very careful concluding sources don't exist when dealing with non-English languages, until a speaker of said language comments about BEFORE.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
01:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
don't delete for nowwe are having language issues with sources. Not a hoax based on the sourcing we have and may be over the WP:N bar. If we get someone to say they've done the appropriate Chinese language searches and turned up nothing toward WP:N, I'd be okay with deletion. Hobit ( talk) 18:18, 1 April 2023 (UTC)- I've searched in Chinese for both names mentioned in this discussion (打棋摞 and 爵) and the other names mentioned at the Chinese Wikipedia article (車輪棋戰 and 搬棋鉈) and couldn't find anything except very brief mentions and clearly unreliable sources. The name "爵" is hard to search for because it has other much more common meanings. I'm not really sure what to do with the sources cited at
zh:打棋摞 – they're offline and my local library doesn't have them, so I can't tell whether they have significant coverage of this game. —
Mx. Granger (
talk ·
contribs)
19:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- weak delete sources don't appear to meet the GNG, still some reservations, but... Thanks @ Mx. Granger:. Hobit ( talk) 20:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- I've searched in Chinese for both names mentioned in this discussion (打棋摞 and 爵) and the other names mentioned at the Chinese Wikipedia article (車輪棋戰 and 搬棋鉈) and couldn't find anything except very brief mentions and clearly unreliable sources. The name "爵" is hard to search for because it has other much more common meanings. I'm not really sure what to do with the sources cited at
zh:打棋摞 – they're offline and my local library doesn't have them, so I can't tell whether they have significant coverage of this game. —
Mx. Granger (
talk ·
contribs)
19:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I was hoping for a keep, but per above, fails GNG. Time given for a language expert to help, and no sources showing notability have been found. // Timothy :: talk 21:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment This article clearly introduces the rules of the traditional game of playing chess stack, and there are references to prove it. Therefore, I believe this article can be retaine
Dearwyh (
talk)
07:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Dearwyh: Can you please provide those references? If so, maybe the article can be kept. So far I've been unable to find reliable sources that cover the topic with any detail. — Mx. Granger ( talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. While there is a general consensus/concern in the discussion that there may be offline Chinese-language sources that would show notability, efforts to find them have not been successful and the consensus is to delete the article. Aoidh ( talk) 04:41, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Giog ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable game. Unsourced since 2007. Natg 19 ( talk) 19:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Games and Asia. Natg 19 ( talk) 19:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:45, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Weak delete. I concur with the nom. But I'll also ping
User:Bermicourt who has a good record of rescuing articles about card games. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
02:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Giog is a variant of chess played in Malaysia, in which Chinese chess pieces are used and played in a card-like manner. Variations of these games are prevalent in various regions of China and other Southeast Asian nations where Chinese communities reside. After reviewing pertinent materials, I have found that this particular game boasts highly intricate rules and is incredibly engaging. If more comprehensive information in English is included, I believe it can be preserved.
악준동 (
talk)
08:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ 악준동: Can you please provide links to the materials you reviewed? So far our problem is a lack of reliable sources about the topic. — Mx. Granger ( talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- Giog is a variant of chess played in Malaysia, in which Chinese chess pieces are used and played in a card-like manner. Variations of these games are prevalent in various regions of China and other Southeast Asian nations where Chinese communities reside. After reviewing pertinent materials, I have found that this particular game boasts highly intricate rules and is incredibly engaging. If more comprehensive information in English is included, I believe it can be preserved.
악준동 (
talk)
08:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: The title is unusual for a Chinese game. It's definitely not a transliteration of Standard Mandarin, but it might be a transliteration of a one-syllable word in some other variety of Chinese (maybe Hakka?). If the game exists, it's possible the WP:COMMONNAME in English is something else. On Wikidata, the article is linked with zh:打棋摞, which is cited only to offline sources. None of the names listed in that article look likely to be transliterated as "giog". — Mx. Granger ( talk · contribs) 03:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. I can only find two original sources for this game. One is the account at
pagat.com, on which this article appears to be based, and the other is a passing mention in a
book on chess. According to pagat.com "Giog" is a Fujian Chinese romanisation of 爵 ("noble") and refers to the three-piece combination in the game. Giog also goes under other names. It isn't a true card game because it's played with Chinese chess pieces. For me, the jury is out in terms of notability because there is only one rule source. However, I am unable to search for it in Chinese, although I see that the Chinese language article linked to this one cites 3 book sources. So perhaps we should hold fire until a Chinese speaker can check it out (the original author isn't currently active on English Wikipedia).
Bermicourt (
talk)
11:43, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. We should be very careful concluding sources don't exist when dealing with non-English languages, until a speaker of said language comments about BEFORE.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
01:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: I think we should get clarity on the sources mentioned above.
- // Timothy :: talk 20:17, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. We should be very careful concluding sources don't exist when dealing with non-English languages, until a speaker of said language comments about BEFORE.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here
01:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
don't delete for nowwe are having language issues with sources. Not a hoax based on the sourcing we have and may be over the WP:N bar. If we get someone to say they've done the appropriate Chinese language searches and turned up nothing toward WP:N, I'd be okay with deletion. Hobit ( talk) 18:18, 1 April 2023 (UTC)- I've searched in Chinese for both names mentioned in this discussion (打棋摞 and 爵) and the other names mentioned at the Chinese Wikipedia article (車輪棋戰 and 搬棋鉈) and couldn't find anything except very brief mentions and clearly unreliable sources. The name "爵" is hard to search for because it has other much more common meanings. I'm not really sure what to do with the sources cited at
zh:打棋摞 – they're offline and my local library doesn't have them, so I can't tell whether they have significant coverage of this game. —
Mx. Granger (
talk ·
contribs)
19:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- weak delete sources don't appear to meet the GNG, still some reservations, but... Thanks @ Mx. Granger:. Hobit ( talk) 20:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- I've searched in Chinese for both names mentioned in this discussion (打棋摞 and 爵) and the other names mentioned at the Chinese Wikipedia article (車輪棋戰 and 搬棋鉈) and couldn't find anything except very brief mentions and clearly unreliable sources. The name "爵" is hard to search for because it has other much more common meanings. I'm not really sure what to do with the sources cited at
zh:打棋摞 – they're offline and my local library doesn't have them, so I can't tell whether they have significant coverage of this game. —
Mx. Granger (
talk ·
contribs)
19:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I was hoping for a keep, but per above, fails GNG. Time given for a language expert to help, and no sources showing notability have been found. // Timothy :: talk 21:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment This article clearly introduces the rules of the traditional game of playing chess stack, and there are references to prove it. Therefore, I believe this article can be retaine
Dearwyh (
talk)
07:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Dearwyh: Can you please provide those references? If so, maybe the article can be kept. So far I've been unable to find reliable sources that cover the topic with any detail. — Mx. Granger ( talk · contribs) 14:01, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.