- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Randykitty ( talk) 17:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Galli Zugaro family
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Galli Zugaro family ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Family of no particular notability. Included in various comprehensive compendia of nobility but no evidence of any significant coverage. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 15:08, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and Italy. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 15:08, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Mentioned multiple times on Wikipedia Italy: example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomwikimaster ( talk • contribs) 23:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Mentioned multiple times, but even on it.wiki, there is not an article about the family. Mentions on it.wiki do not indicate notability; coverage in reliable sources does. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Page 460 in "La Fine di Un Regno" by Raffaele de Cesare, 1909" [1] Personal accounts of Baron Enzo as King Umberto's chief secretary [2] Official documentation of Domenico's status as "magistrato", judge [3] Additional mentions of notability and importance [4] [5] Looking forward to hearing feedback before I go ahead and draft other families. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomwikimaster ( talk • contribs) 01:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/ezbJrXVeZFYC?hl=en&gbpv=0
- ^ https://vivant.it/2020/02/11/qualche-ricordo-personale-su-re-umberto-ii/
- ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bollettino_ufficiale_del_Ministero_di_gr/tq_yJOHxSRYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=famiglia+galli+zugaro&pg=PA480&printsec=frontcover
- ^ https://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1994/11/30/contesse-medici-boxeur-alla-corte-della-destra.html
- ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Gazzetta_ufficiale_della_Repubblica_ital/fi_icMF_DWIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=famiglia+galli+zugaro&pg=PA3437&printsec=frontcover
- Comment @ Randomwikimaster: These are all mentions in passing. None of these citations amounts to in-depth coverage that would be necessary to build a Wikipedia page. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:29, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - I prefer to have a good target of a redirect for
much less notable articles on less notable individuals.
Bearian (
talk)
20:22, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment That seems to be a poor argument for retention. Either the family is notable, or they are not. If they are not notable, then there should be no article. If articles pop up about the family members, who are also not notable, the way to deal with them is not to redirect to an article about a non-notable family, but to delete. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 22:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – filelakeshoe ( t / c) 🐱 15:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)- KEEP - Do we require a person or family to be 'notable' to require inclusion? Notoriety should be sufficient.
146.200.245.116 (
talk)
08:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment The notability guideline exists to assure that there are sufficient reliable sources from which to build a verifiable encyclopedia article. With this family, there are not such sufficient sources. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 22:30, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with this reason to KEEP - if a family directly related, who clearly directly interacted with as stated in the sources, royal families such as the House of Bourbon-Parma and House of Bourbon, as well as directly related to the Princely House of Massimo, as well as mentioned on the pages of Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and Legitimist pretenders to the French Throne - if this doesn't achieve minimum notoriety, then what does? Although I appreciate the way Wikipedia works with moderation, I do believe that sometimes some users such as WikiDan61 should put their pride to the side - and let experts of history and genealogy decide whether a family is notable or not. Randomwikimaster ( talk) 22:28, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- KEEP - Do we require a person or family to be 'notable' to require inclusion? Notoriety should be sufficient.
146.200.245.116 (
talk)
08:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Delete What we have here are listings in documents that record genealogies, and a few very brief mentions or name-checks in things that read like society columns of the early 20th c. The title "barone" here dates only to 1927, and is a minor title given often to military persons. I see nothing that would elevate this family to a level of notability. I also don't (yet) find any individual member with enough sources for an article.
Lamona (
talk)
01:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you must be confusing your knowledge of titles with that of other countries such as the UK and France, the former who still sells titles for pennies. In Italy, the title of Baron was more respected and admired than the superior "Count" - due to being earned. In addition to this, I do believe that any family directly related to a former Royal House, in this case, the House of Bourbon and of Bourbon-Parma, and the Princely House of Massimo, one of the most important aristocratic families in rome, more than definitely exceeds the bare minimum for notability. In addition to this, "WikiDan61" seems to be going out of his way, more than his usual activity records, to get this page removed... Randomwikimaster ( talk) 22:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 19:31, 22 December 2022 (UTC)- I suggest you look up the definition of "mention in passing". While some of them are, Repubblica, Gazzetta della Repubblica, and Vivant, are all reliable sources and first hand accounts.
Randomwikimaster (
talk)
22:29, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- From Vivant, a clause in one sentence: "... alternandosi durante le proprie assenze con sostituti quali il barone Galli-Zugaro...". From Repubblica: "... l' elenco degli ospiti: principessa Cenci Bolognetti, contessa Marcelli Graziosi, principessa Machiavelli, barone Galli Zugaro, marchesa Costanza Afan de Rivera Costaguti..." (a list of guests). And the gazzetta says that Domenico Galli-Zugaro is taking a 6 months leave for "family reasons." That's it. And those are classic passing mentions.
Lamona (
talk)
15:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- It seem as if you are taking the mentions out of context. Vivant, a first hand memoir of baron Enzo's role as general secretary of King Umberto II of Italy while in exile in Cascais. The guest list, for a fundraising event for a major political party in Italy. Gazzetta, the ex-official newspaper of the Kingdom of Italy. All more than exceed the minimum notability requirements for Wikipedia in my opinion. Actually, being listed in the Italian Book of Nobility on its own is, according to Wikipedia's notability policy, more than enough - families who shaped the course of Italian history. Randomwikimaster ( talk) 17:41, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- From Vivant, a clause in one sentence: "... alternandosi durante le proprie assenze con sostituti quali il barone Galli-Zugaro...". From Repubblica: "... l' elenco degli ospiti: principessa Cenci Bolognetti, contessa Marcelli Graziosi, principessa Machiavelli, barone Galli Zugaro, marchesa Costanza Afan de Rivera Costaguti..." (a list of guests). And the gazzetta says that Domenico Galli-Zugaro is taking a 6 months leave for "family reasons." That's it. And those are classic passing mentions.
Lamona (
talk)
15:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
·Delete. Besides the New York Times article (which is paywalled), I found only one source that wasn’t first person, a trivial mention, or Ancestry (which is generally considered not reliable) like. Vital Articles Grammar ( talk) 06:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Randykitty ( talk) 17:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Galli Zugaro family
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Galli Zugaro family ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Family of no particular notability. Included in various comprehensive compendia of nobility but no evidence of any significant coverage. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 15:08, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Royalty and nobility and Italy. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 15:08, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Mentioned multiple times on Wikipedia Italy: example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomwikimaster ( talk • contribs) 23:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Mentioned multiple times, but even on it.wiki, there is not an article about the family. Mentions on it.wiki do not indicate notability; coverage in reliable sources does. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Page 460 in "La Fine di Un Regno" by Raffaele de Cesare, 1909" [1] Personal accounts of Baron Enzo as King Umberto's chief secretary [2] Official documentation of Domenico's status as "magistrato", judge [3] Additional mentions of notability and importance [4] [5] Looking forward to hearing feedback before I go ahead and draft other families. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomwikimaster ( talk • contribs) 01:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/ezbJrXVeZFYC?hl=en&gbpv=0
- ^ https://vivant.it/2020/02/11/qualche-ricordo-personale-su-re-umberto-ii/
- ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bollettino_ufficiale_del_Ministero_di_gr/tq_yJOHxSRYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=famiglia+galli+zugaro&pg=PA480&printsec=frontcover
- ^ https://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1994/11/30/contesse-medici-boxeur-alla-corte-della-destra.html
- ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Gazzetta_ufficiale_della_Repubblica_ital/fi_icMF_DWIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=famiglia+galli+zugaro&pg=PA3437&printsec=frontcover
- Comment @ Randomwikimaster: These are all mentions in passing. None of these citations amounts to in-depth coverage that would be necessary to build a Wikipedia page. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 12:29, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - I prefer to have a good target of a redirect for
much less notable articles on less notable individuals.
Bearian (
talk)
20:22, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment That seems to be a poor argument for retention. Either the family is notable, or they are not. If they are not notable, then there should be no article. If articles pop up about the family members, who are also not notable, the way to deal with them is not to redirect to an article about a non-notable family, but to delete. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 22:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – filelakeshoe ( t / c) 🐱 15:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)- KEEP - Do we require a person or family to be 'notable' to require inclusion? Notoriety should be sufficient.
146.200.245.116 (
talk)
08:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment The notability guideline exists to assure that there are sufficient reliable sources from which to build a verifiable encyclopedia article. With this family, there are not such sufficient sources. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 22:30, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with this reason to KEEP - if a family directly related, who clearly directly interacted with as stated in the sources, royal families such as the House of Bourbon-Parma and House of Bourbon, as well as directly related to the Princely House of Massimo, as well as mentioned on the pages of Carlist pretenders to the Spanish throne and Legitimist pretenders to the French Throne - if this doesn't achieve minimum notoriety, then what does? Although I appreciate the way Wikipedia works with moderation, I do believe that sometimes some users such as WikiDan61 should put their pride to the side - and let experts of history and genealogy decide whether a family is notable or not. Randomwikimaster ( talk) 22:28, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- KEEP - Do we require a person or family to be 'notable' to require inclusion? Notoriety should be sufficient.
146.200.245.116 (
talk)
08:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Delete What we have here are listings in documents that record genealogies, and a few very brief mentions or name-checks in things that read like society columns of the early 20th c. The title "barone" here dates only to 1927, and is a minor title given often to military persons. I see nothing that would elevate this family to a level of notability. I also don't (yet) find any individual member with enough sources for an article.
Lamona (
talk)
01:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you must be confusing your knowledge of titles with that of other countries such as the UK and France, the former who still sells titles for pennies. In Italy, the title of Baron was more respected and admired than the superior "Count" - due to being earned. In addition to this, I do believe that any family directly related to a former Royal House, in this case, the House of Bourbon and of Bourbon-Parma, and the Princely House of Massimo, one of the most important aristocratic families in rome, more than definitely exceeds the bare minimum for notability. In addition to this, "WikiDan61" seems to be going out of his way, more than his usual activity records, to get this page removed... Randomwikimaster ( talk) 22:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 19:31, 22 December 2022 (UTC)- I suggest you look up the definition of "mention in passing". While some of them are, Repubblica, Gazzetta della Repubblica, and Vivant, are all reliable sources and first hand accounts.
Randomwikimaster (
talk)
22:29, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- From Vivant, a clause in one sentence: "... alternandosi durante le proprie assenze con sostituti quali il barone Galli-Zugaro...". From Repubblica: "... l' elenco degli ospiti: principessa Cenci Bolognetti, contessa Marcelli Graziosi, principessa Machiavelli, barone Galli Zugaro, marchesa Costanza Afan de Rivera Costaguti..." (a list of guests). And the gazzetta says that Domenico Galli-Zugaro is taking a 6 months leave for "family reasons." That's it. And those are classic passing mentions.
Lamona (
talk)
15:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- It seem as if you are taking the mentions out of context. Vivant, a first hand memoir of baron Enzo's role as general secretary of King Umberto II of Italy while in exile in Cascais. The guest list, for a fundraising event for a major political party in Italy. Gazzetta, the ex-official newspaper of the Kingdom of Italy. All more than exceed the minimum notability requirements for Wikipedia in my opinion. Actually, being listed in the Italian Book of Nobility on its own is, according to Wikipedia's notability policy, more than enough - families who shaped the course of Italian history. Randomwikimaster ( talk) 17:41, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- From Vivant, a clause in one sentence: "... alternandosi durante le proprie assenze con sostituti quali il barone Galli-Zugaro...". From Repubblica: "... l' elenco degli ospiti: principessa Cenci Bolognetti, contessa Marcelli Graziosi, principessa Machiavelli, barone Galli Zugaro, marchesa Costanza Afan de Rivera Costaguti..." (a list of guests). And the gazzetta says that Domenico Galli-Zugaro is taking a 6 months leave for "family reasons." That's it. And those are classic passing mentions.
Lamona (
talk)
15:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
·Delete. Besides the New York Times article (which is paywalled), I found only one source that wasn’t first person, a trivial mention, or Ancestry (which is generally considered not reliable) like. Vital Articles Grammar ( talk) 06:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.