The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This group of articles involves athletes from some of the earliest Olympics for whom we have no significant coverage, and for whom significant coverage is unlikely to be available as we do not know key biographical information about these individuals that would allow us to find such coverage; the minimum that is missing is their first name and when they died, and most also lack information on when they were born.
This absence of significant coverage is reinforced by reading the summaries that some of them have at Olympedia, which include lines such as "We do not know much about ..." and "We know nothing else of ...".
In some cases, this lack of coverage extends to their participation in the Olympics, with us not knowing which event they competed in, and in one case not knowing if they did compete.
These articles are nominated for deletion as a redirect is inappropriate as these names consisting of an initial and a last name are reasonable search terms for many notable individuals, while prod is not appropriate as most of them meet
WP:NSPORT through various criteria.
Procedural concern. I am concerned that there is insufficient commonality to mass these all in one AfD. They are from different countries and completed in different sports (ranging from weighlifting to sailing, gymnastics, track, swimming, tug of war (really), and lacrosse).
Cbl62 (
talk)
14:14, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The commonality is that we don't know basic biographical details, which means that it will not be possible to find the significant coverage that we currently lack. Given that, I don't believe the differences matter enough that we need to split this discussion.
As for the redirects, those were created since I nominated these articles.
Regarding NSPORTS, despite the change to NOLYMPICS many of sport-specific guidance includes participation in the Olympics as an indication of notability - I've had a number of prods rejected on those grounds. I would also note that some of them did medal.
BilledMammal (
talk)
14:24, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
31, if you count G. Sylva. I understand the concern, and would generally share it, but I believe in this case the lack of basic biographic details (
WP:V) is sufficient commonality.
BilledMammal (
talk)
14:37, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Procedural keep. The 31 articles here lack the commonality required by
WP:BUNDLE. The nom includes medalists who may have a better chance of standing on their own merits. E.g.,
W. J. Ross and
W. R. Gibson - silver medal in lacrosse. It also includes individuals from disparate time periods, sports, and countries. Many or most of them may lack notability, but I can't support the procedural device of a single nom for all 31.
Cbl62 (
talk)
15:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I would note that I believe
WP:BUNDLE has been met, both through the commonality discussed above and because articles have been reliable deleted on this basis, including
gold and
silver medal winners.
I would also say that going on a case-by-case basis here would waste a lot of time, but if there is a consensus that that is needed I will nominate all of these after this discussion has closed.
BilledMammal (
talk)
15:20, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I understand the frustration of dealing with such a huge mass of micro-stubs. The progress is slower by dealing with them separately, but the procedural concerns are real. If and when separate noms are made, I am happy to look at them again. BTW, the AfD has already resulted in progress, as about half have already been changed by the article creator to redirects.Cbl62 (
talk)
15:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment For those !voting "Procedural Keep", can you find significant coverage for even one of these? If you can, then you are correct that this bundle is inappropriate, while if you can't it would suggest the bundle is appropriate and it would be a waste of time to have 31 separate AFD's.
BilledMammal (
talk)
16:06, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Your comment fails to appreciate the procedural objection. The asserted absence of SIGCOV is not the sort of commonality that supports bundling. See
WP:BUNDLE.
Cbl62 (
talk)
16:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
To be clear, that lack of significant coverage isn't why I bundled these together; if it was, this list would be much longer. The reason I bundled them together is the lack of basic biographical information that allows us to determine who these people were, as without that we cannot find significant coverage on them.
BilledMammal (
talk)
16:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Important procedural note I have removed from the listing those articles which seem to have been (already? prior to the start of the AfD?) been redirected. That leaves a fair amount fewer.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
16:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
That still leaves the fact that many of these would require different outcomes (some should actually be redirected; others should probably deleted because there is no single plausible target and usually this kind of "redirect-from-partial-name-to-disambig-page" (P Ritter being a prime example - see the half dozen actually notable persons at
Ritter (surname)#P) isn't really a thing, and the sheer number was a bad idea in the first place).
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
16:34, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I believe most don't have appropriate redirects, but there is no reason they can't be closed similar to the test AFDs for
A. Albert and
A. Wilcocks where the closer leaves open the possibility of the redirect being recreated. I also don't believe there is any option other than "redirect" or "delete" for any of the se articles.
BilledMammal (
talk)
16:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete most Ok, after taking a look at each one of the remaining ones, there are a fair few for which redirecting would not be a sensible option because there are many people with the same initials and no sensible target (and redirecting from a partial name to a disambig page seems unproductive, as that's where the search function should lead anyway). However, amongst the seven remaining once those are accounted for; there are the following:
H Duke
J Defert
L Lescat
L Legru
N Katravas
P Baur
V Van Hamme
The first one of these could plausibly have one single target (
Henry Duke, 1st Baron Merrivale), but whether it is really worth having that redirect (in light of the search function) is dubious [I'll note that there are plenty of historical figures for which we do have such redirects, and in some cases those abbreviations are also commonly found in actual usage, ex.
J. S. Bach. Whether those redirects are truly necessary for most figures is another question]. The others are technically unambiguous, so those could be redirected.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
23:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Which part of "per above"? Despite the large size of the nomination, per above (including my own comment and those of others), most of the articles are indeed in a very similar situation.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
23:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I found a Belgian newspaper article about
V. Van Hamme, indicating his first name was Victor: Trainer Victor Van Hamme, die zelf een knap gewichtheffer is geweest en verscheidene Olympiaden zooals Antwerpen, Amsterdam en Parijs heeft medegemaakt voor ons land, kon nu terug zijn kunde demonstreeren aan de nieuwelingen.[1]gnu5702:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Looking for that name I'm able to find
this, but it is impossible to guess whether this is the same "Victor Van Hamme" or not. In any case, all of this is still far short of SIGCOV. I'll move the article to the full name, but that's about all that can be done for now. It should probably be redirected. Cheers,
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
03:28, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Procedural keep Per the concerns stated above. I'm sure some do merit deletion, but that needs to be determined via individual AfDs. Best,
GPL93 (
talk)
17:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Procedural keep. This bundle is too big and diverse to obtain consensus in a single AfD. They need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. One size fits all does not work here, per editor comments above.
• Gene93k (
talk)
02:53, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This group of articles involves athletes from some of the earliest Olympics for whom we have no significant coverage, and for whom significant coverage is unlikely to be available as we do not know key biographical information about these individuals that would allow us to find such coverage; the minimum that is missing is their first name and when they died, and most also lack information on when they were born.
This absence of significant coverage is reinforced by reading the summaries that some of them have at Olympedia, which include lines such as "We do not know much about ..." and "We know nothing else of ...".
In some cases, this lack of coverage extends to their participation in the Olympics, with us not knowing which event they competed in, and in one case not knowing if they did compete.
These articles are nominated for deletion as a redirect is inappropriate as these names consisting of an initial and a last name are reasonable search terms for many notable individuals, while prod is not appropriate as most of them meet
WP:NSPORT through various criteria.
Procedural concern. I am concerned that there is insufficient commonality to mass these all in one AfD. They are from different countries and completed in different sports (ranging from weighlifting to sailing, gymnastics, track, swimming, tug of war (really), and lacrosse).
Cbl62 (
talk)
14:14, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The commonality is that we don't know basic biographical details, which means that it will not be possible to find the significant coverage that we currently lack. Given that, I don't believe the differences matter enough that we need to split this discussion.
As for the redirects, those were created since I nominated these articles.
Regarding NSPORTS, despite the change to NOLYMPICS many of sport-specific guidance includes participation in the Olympics as an indication of notability - I've had a number of prods rejected on those grounds. I would also note that some of them did medal.
BilledMammal (
talk)
14:24, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
31, if you count G. Sylva. I understand the concern, and would generally share it, but I believe in this case the lack of basic biographic details (
WP:V) is sufficient commonality.
BilledMammal (
talk)
14:37, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Procedural keep. The 31 articles here lack the commonality required by
WP:BUNDLE. The nom includes medalists who may have a better chance of standing on their own merits. E.g.,
W. J. Ross and
W. R. Gibson - silver medal in lacrosse. It also includes individuals from disparate time periods, sports, and countries. Many or most of them may lack notability, but I can't support the procedural device of a single nom for all 31.
Cbl62 (
talk)
15:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I would note that I believe
WP:BUNDLE has been met, both through the commonality discussed above and because articles have been reliable deleted on this basis, including
gold and
silver medal winners.
I would also say that going on a case-by-case basis here would waste a lot of time, but if there is a consensus that that is needed I will nominate all of these after this discussion has closed.
BilledMammal (
talk)
15:20, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I understand the frustration of dealing with such a huge mass of micro-stubs. The progress is slower by dealing with them separately, but the procedural concerns are real. If and when separate noms are made, I am happy to look at them again. BTW, the AfD has already resulted in progress, as about half have already been changed by the article creator to redirects.Cbl62 (
talk)
15:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment For those !voting "Procedural Keep", can you find significant coverage for even one of these? If you can, then you are correct that this bundle is inappropriate, while if you can't it would suggest the bundle is appropriate and it would be a waste of time to have 31 separate AFD's.
BilledMammal (
talk)
16:06, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Your comment fails to appreciate the procedural objection. The asserted absence of SIGCOV is not the sort of commonality that supports bundling. See
WP:BUNDLE.
Cbl62 (
talk)
16:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
To be clear, that lack of significant coverage isn't why I bundled these together; if it was, this list would be much longer. The reason I bundled them together is the lack of basic biographical information that allows us to determine who these people were, as without that we cannot find significant coverage on them.
BilledMammal (
talk)
16:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Important procedural note I have removed from the listing those articles which seem to have been (already? prior to the start of the AfD?) been redirected. That leaves a fair amount fewer.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
16:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
That still leaves the fact that many of these would require different outcomes (some should actually be redirected; others should probably deleted because there is no single plausible target and usually this kind of "redirect-from-partial-name-to-disambig-page" (P Ritter being a prime example - see the half dozen actually notable persons at
Ritter (surname)#P) isn't really a thing, and the sheer number was a bad idea in the first place).
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
16:34, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I believe most don't have appropriate redirects, but there is no reason they can't be closed similar to the test AFDs for
A. Albert and
A. Wilcocks where the closer leaves open the possibility of the redirect being recreated. I also don't believe there is any option other than "redirect" or "delete" for any of the se articles.
BilledMammal (
talk)
16:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Delete most Ok, after taking a look at each one of the remaining ones, there are a fair few for which redirecting would not be a sensible option because there are many people with the same initials and no sensible target (and redirecting from a partial name to a disambig page seems unproductive, as that's where the search function should lead anyway). However, amongst the seven remaining once those are accounted for; there are the following:
H Duke
J Defert
L Lescat
L Legru
N Katravas
P Baur
V Van Hamme
The first one of these could plausibly have one single target (
Henry Duke, 1st Baron Merrivale), but whether it is really worth having that redirect (in light of the search function) is dubious [I'll note that there are plenty of historical figures for which we do have such redirects, and in some cases those abbreviations are also commonly found in actual usage, ex.
J. S. Bach. Whether those redirects are truly necessary for most figures is another question]. The others are technically unambiguous, so those could be redirected.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
23:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Which part of "per above"? Despite the large size of the nomination, per above (including my own comment and those of others), most of the articles are indeed in a very similar situation.
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
23:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment I found a Belgian newspaper article about
V. Van Hamme, indicating his first name was Victor: Trainer Victor Van Hamme, die zelf een knap gewichtheffer is geweest en verscheidene Olympiaden zooals Antwerpen, Amsterdam en Parijs heeft medegemaakt voor ons land, kon nu terug zijn kunde demonstreeren aan de nieuwelingen.[1]gnu5702:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Looking for that name I'm able to find
this, but it is impossible to guess whether this is the same "Victor Van Hamme" or not. In any case, all of this is still far short of SIGCOV. I'll move the article to the full name, but that's about all that can be done for now. It should probably be redirected. Cheers,
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
03:28, 11 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Procedural keep Per the concerns stated above. I'm sure some do merit deletion, but that needs to be determined via individual AfDs. Best,
GPL93 (
talk)
17:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Procedural keep. This bundle is too big and diverse to obtain consensus in a single AfD. They need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. One size fits all does not work here, per editor comments above.
• Gene93k (
talk)
02:53, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.