The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Rashism. No prejudice against instead redirecting to Russian fascism. Arbitrarily0 ^{( talk)} 08:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Update. A further explanation has been requested. In the discussion below, there was a slight majority in favor of delete/redirect. Moreover, those supporting delete/redirect have, as best I can determine, the more convincing argument: without more evidence that Russia is or has been fascist in the traditional sense of the term, rather than in a uniquely Russian sense (i.e., Red fascism, Rashism), the article would seem to be a content fork. If I have gravely misunderstood the discussion, please advise. Arbitrarily0 ^{( talk)} 20:45, 23 May 2022 (UTC) reply

Fascism in Russia (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This page was created as a page to present the history and philosophy of fascism in Russia going back to the 1800s to provide a full historical context. It has been suggested that the page be redirected to Rashism and history of fascism in Russia should be presented via a DAB page with links to individual pages. Gusfriend ( talk) 10:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Gusfriend ( talk) 10:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 11:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC) reply
• Delete and redirect to Rashism, since that article has already outshined this recently created WP:CFORK.

Talk:Rashism#Scope of the article was where the discussion happened.

Rashism was a redirect [1] from 6 April - 10 April when Fascism in Russia was turned into an article from draft on 7 April. [2]

Initially it was agreed that Rashism should be a redirect to Fascism in Russia and Fascism in Russia should be turned into an article but this discussion later concluded that Rashism should be a stand-alone page.

Now that discussion indicates that we don't need Fascism in Russia anymore.

The content of Fascism in Russia shows the article is just WP:CFORK of different pages such as Red fascism, Rashism, Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality, Black Hundreds and Fascist (insult).

If you only want to highlight the relevant subjects related to the subject then disambiguation Russian fascism is good enough for that.

I also note that we don't have a Fascism in the United States. It redirects to Fascism in North America. Similarly, this page should redirect to Rashism. LearnIndology ( talk) 11:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete and redirect per above. Either article could exist, not both since they concern the same subject. NavjotSR ( talk) 09:16, 30 April 2022 (UTC) reply
• Keep Imperial politics of 1833 are not normally described as “Rashism.” The main article about the 190-year history of fascism in Russia ought to be called “Fascism in Russia”: if these two are to be merged—a different discussion, I think—then this descriptive title and slightly older edit history ought to be kept. To me it looks like this article is underdeveloped and needs expansion. A good start would be merging some material from the other, which is more about the contemporary phenomenon of 2022 and its conception embodied by the name. — Michael  Z. 17:06, 30 April 2022 (UTC) reply

  "Imperial politics of 1833" are not described as "fascist" either. And the suggestion that "merging some material from the other" would in fact only confirm further that this article cannot be created without WP:CHERRYPICKING and WP:POVFORKing. Both are discouraged on Wikipedia. LearnIndology ( talk) 17:31, 30 April 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete Fascism is the ideology that emerged during 1920s. Our article on Fascism makes no mention of existence of fascism in Russia thus WP:RGW applies. Lorstaking 10:40, 1 May 2022 (UTC) reply
• Keep until proven Rashism and Fascism in Russia are synonyms and Rashism is more recognizable than Fascism in Russia per WP:TITLE. There is enough significant coverage in reliable independent sources to give Fascism in Russia notability per WP:N
  • Motyl, Alexander John (2007-12-03). "Is Putin's Russia Fascist?". The National Interest. Archived from the original on 2013-07-31. Retrieved 2022-04-13.
  • Umland, Andreas (2008-03-26). "Is Putin's Russia really "fascist"? A response to Alexander Motyl". History News Network. Archived from the original on 2022-04-22. Retrieved 2022-04-13.
  • Motyl, Alexander John (2016-03-01) [2016-01-23]. "Putin's Russia as a fascist political system". Communist and Post-Communist Studies. 49 (1): 25–36. doi: 10.1016/j.postcomstud.2016.01.002. ISSN  0967-067X. Archived from the original on 2022-04-22. Retrieved 2022-04-22.
  • Yes, Putin and Russia are fascist — a political scientist shows how they meet the textbook definition
  • Russia-Ukraine war: Vladimir Putin’s bizarre claim Russia 'saving' Ukraine from West’s Nazi dictatorship
  • The War in Ukraine Has Unleashed a New Word

Manyareasexpert ( talk) 18:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC) reply

@ Manyareasexpert: Sure lets analyze the sources you have provided.

• First source: Talks about Putinism by focusing on "Putin's Russia". Significant sentence from the source: "Although Putin's Russia possesses the defining characteristics of fascism, they have not yet assumed the form of a consolidated, coherent and hence fully-stable political system."
• Second source is debunking aspects of the above one and says "In assessing Russia´s fate today and in the next years, we should reserve the label “fascist” for only those scenarios that indeed deserve this most value-laden term of the 20th century."
• Third source is just an argument, and it is about Putinism that "If my definition of fascism and consensus regarding Putin's Russia are not accepted as valid, then it follows, logically that Putin's Russian may not legitimately termed fascist or fascistoid."
• Fourth source talks about Rashism; "Ukrainian media, public and policymakers almost unanimously began calling the Russian president and the state he leads “rashyst.” The term is a hybrid of a derogatory moniker for Russia – “rasha” – and “fascist.”"
• Fifth source - It is quoting Motyl, but again it is about Putinism; "Putin has completely dismantled all of Russia's nascent democratic institutions. Elections are neither free nor fair."
• Sixth source - That is about Rashism.

Remember, Rashism is "a claim that Russia has been transformed into a fascist or neo-fascist country. It is also used for referring to the ideology of Russian military expansionism." There is no confirmed "fascism in Russia" as of yet. The Rashism article already describes all the speculations and possibilities that have been provided in your sources, while Putinism#Characteristics discuss the rest. I hope you are convinced now. NavjotSR ( talk) 11:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC) reply

I'm sorry but sources you saying are talking about Putinism do not mention "Putinism". They do discuss if Putin's Russia is fascist however. Which fits into "Fascism in Russia". Those you saying are talking about "Rashism" are actually talking about Fascism in Russia more. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 12:44, 5 May 2022 (UTC) reply

See WP:POVFORK. Not every single point of view needs a new article when it has been already covered in an existing Wikipedia article. You would want to create Authoritarianism in Russia, Personality cult of Putin and more based on above sources but don't. Lorstaking 14:44, 5 May 2022 (UTC) reply

Thats what has been said originally. Keep until proven Rashism and Fascism in Russia are synonyms and Rashism is more recognizable than Fascism in Russia.

But I'm starting to think they are not completely equal. "Rashism", as sources say, is just a nowadays word for Russian Fascism / Fascism in Russia / you decide. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 15:35, 5 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• 'Delete Not a useful subject and has been already clarified at Rashism. CharlesWain ( talk) 17:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC) reply
• Delete. Duplicate article at this stage since Rashism is described as "Russian fascism" and 1 article is enough for this subject. Also agree with analysis above. >>>  Extorc. talk 05:59, 7 May 2022 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:35, 7 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep - the deletions argument weirdly relies on Rashism (an absolutely novel term invented a few weeks ago) as an excuse to attempt to delete a history of fascism in Russia that goes back at least a century. Have people forgotten that Stalin was a red fascist, for example? No less than The New York Times wrote in 1939: «Hitlerism is brown communism, Stalinism is red fascism». ^[1] Why would anyone want to whitewash Stalin? XavierItzm ( talk) 00:19, 8 May 2022 (UTC) reply
  • Your statements are misleading. You are already aware that we have article on Red fascism which is just a accusation, not an actual fascsim. Similarly, anyone who knows the term " Rashism" would already know that it wasn't  "invented a few weeks ago"  but is in use since 2014. [3] Yoonadue ( talk) 11:10, 8 May 2022 (UTC) reply

    If this discussion goes into which article name is preferable than this deletion discussion should be closed and a new discussion on proper name for the article should be started. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 13:30, 8 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete. This article is not about the Fascist movement in Russia. It is about things that people want to tar with the brush of Fascism because they don't like it. That doesn't mean that I am a supporter of the rule of Stalin or Putin. It means that the article irretrievably fails WP:NPOV. Spinning Spark 16:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC) reply
• Keep Reliable sources use the word "Fascism" to describe Russia. As historian Timothy Snyder explains, "Rashism" is a made-up, combination of "pronunciations of words in both English, Ukrainian and Russian." Also, President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, Dzhokhar Dudayev is the man who coined the original term & definition of "rashism" and Dudayev says Rashism "differs from other forms of fascism, racism, and nationalism by a more extreme cruelty, both to man and to nature. It is based on the destruction of everything and everyone, the tactics of scorched earth." So clearly fascism & rashism are different words with different definitions. Therefore, both articles should be kept and both articles should be kept separated from each other - they are not the same. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 14:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC) reply

  None of the sources have found any actual "fascism" in Russia. "Rashism" is more accurate since talks about a different brand "Russian fascism" than what we normally see. Although "Rashism" is just an allegation. We need only 1 article on this subject, not more. GenuineArt ( talk) 14:04, 13 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete As already defined that it is a WP:POVFORK and cannot be developed on its own. GenuineArt ( talk) 14:04, 13 May 2022 (UTC) reply
• Delete: Per WP:POVFORK and WP:RGW as already described by SpinningSpark and Lorstaking. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 01:49, 15 May 2022 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete and redirect per explanations given by GenuineArt and SpinningSpark: I have contributed to many articles related to far-right ideologies and movements over the years, and I never heard of the term "Rashism" before stumbling upon this AfD, similarly to the users XavierItzm and BetsyRMadison; it may be true that this neologism was invented in 2014, but definitely is not a concept so widespread to be recognizable to most people, and seems to be nothing more than an euphemism for " Putinism". I suggest to copy and paste the sourced content from the article Fascism in Russia into the "Russia" section of the article Neo-fascism or to write a new section about Russia in the article Far-right politics, since most of it is concerned with far-right nationalist extremism in the post-Soviet Russian Federation (1990s onwards). GenoV84 ( talk) 17:40, 15 May 2022 (UTC) reply

  The page is 15 205 bytes long. The section on Rashishm is 1 164 bytes long, and it is only 7% of the article. Whereas your criticism of Rashism is spot-on, its just so weird to advocate for the deletion of a 15,205-byte article just because it contains 1,164 bytes of recentism. Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup. XavierItzm ( talk) 06:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC) reply

  You're right about that, in fact I didn't propose to delete Fascism in Russia and redirect it to Rashism; other users above have explained that Rashism originally was a redirect to Fascism in Russia ( [4]) and later became a standalone article. I suggested to redirect it to either Neo-fascism or Far-right politics and move most of its post-Soviet content to one of those articles. Moreover, the first sections of the article Fascism in Russia, which seem to pin the term "fascist" on several Russian monarchist and ultra-nationalist movements arbitrarily ( Black Hundreds, Union of the Russian People, and Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality, which had been in existence since 1905, before Mussolini's foundation of the first original Fascist movement in 1914), are more confusing than anything, and the section about "Red fascism" in the Soviet Union looks even worse. GenoV84 ( talk) 09:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep but merge some articles into this one (TL; DR: merge Rashism into this title, which is better). Sources like [5] [6], [7] , [8] and, [9] clearly indicate that this (Fascism in Russia/Russian fascism) is a concept discussed in academic literature. There is indeed an issue that this has also been labelled Rashism, Putinism, Red fascism, and is related to other concepts ( neo-nazism in Russia, Russian nationalism, Russian imperialism, etc.) in the form of a Venn diagram. It's complex, but we need a main article under a name that is simple, and easily recognizable. IMHO, Russian fascism/fascism in Russia are more common terms than Rashizm (which seems to be a relatively recent term, a Ukrainian neologism). I'd suggest merging at minimum Rashism, and possibly Putinism and Red fascism into this article instead, as I do feel like we have quite a few POV forks discussing the same issue, although frankly, it would take some more in-depth research to be sure what needs to be merged. Anyway, I'd strongly prefer to discuss Russian nazism under a simple, descriptive name than under Rashism. PS. Regarding pre-1914 content, it can be seen as 'background'. Anyway, it would be good to base this article on a a reliabe, academic oveview, rather than WP:SYNTH borderin on WP:OR that I feel we are curently dealing with. PPS. A good indication a merge is needed is this little telling tidbit: in the lead of Rashism, we see "Rashism... also known as Russian fascism". The bare minimum is merging Fascism in Russia with Rashism, all other articles can be discussed elsewhere (and some of the, had been). But seriously, Russian fascism = Rashism.

PPS. It's also interesting to compare rashism ( wikidata:Q15975478) and fascism in Russia ( wikidata:Q13479496). The first lists, currently: be Рускі фашызмen Fascism in Russiaes Fascismo en Rusiaet Fašism Venemaalid Fasisme Rusiaja ロシアのファシズムnl Russisch fascismeru Русский фашизмtt Urıs faşizmıuk Російський фашизмzh 俄罗斯法西斯主义. While the second, ar الفاشية الروسيةaz Raşizmbe_x_old Расейскі фашызмbe Рашызмbg Рашизъмca Raixizmcs Rašismusde Raschismusen Rashismet Rašismhr Rušizamid Rashismja ラシズムka რაშიზმიko 라시즘lv Rašismspa ਰਾਸ਼ੀਵਾਦpl Faszyzm rosyjskipt Russismoro Ruscismsh Rušizamsk Ruský fašizmussl Ruski fašizemtr Ruşizmtt Рашизмuk Рашизмxmf რაშიზმიyi ראשיזםzh 俄西斯主义 . I find the fact that both entries include numerous variants of "Russian fascism/Fasicm in Russia" telling again that many folks are confused regarding what difference there is between those concepts (and I don't agree with [10] by User:Veverve). -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:47, 19 May 2022 (UTC) reply

This is a good roundup. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 09:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep. We should really stop these frequent AfDs and concentrate on the contents. Past discussion indicated that we've had consensus that we need a general broad scope article on "Fascism in Russia" discussing things macroscopically down to the historical roots, and another article (now named "Rashism") on the more recent developments. While there is some overlap, a lot of the contents which would ultimately have to be included in the "Fascism in Russia" article would not belong into the "Rashism" article, and vice versa. What is currently going on in Russia could not be discussed at the necessary depth in the former article, which in turn would also discuss historical developments not related to Rashism/Ruscism/Russism. This does not mean that the Rashism article shouldn't have a history section of its own, but it should focus only on stuff actually related to Рашизм and русизм. There are corner-cases and we'll still have to find out where to best put some contents, but we should do so through normal article talk page discussions, not sledgehammer AfDs.

Some people have argued that we would not need the "Fascism in Russia" article because the disambiguation page "Russian fascism" would do the job as well. I don't think so, one does not rule out the other. I think we need both, as a disambiguation page is just a navigation aid and not a historical discussion in context. So, actually, we need all three articles. -- Matthiaspaul ( talk) 20:45, 19 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep not seeing a valid rationale for deletion. If, per above, there is some organisational work to be done then it can be done outside of the deletion process. Artw ( talk) 21:31, 19 May 2022 (UTC) reply

  This makes no sense. Read the comments by Lorstaking, Learnindology, SpinningSpark and others. The problem is with the existence of this article that it needs to be deleted. Those who voted for deletion haven't just objected to the content. TheRollBoss001 ( talk) 02:44, 20 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete and redirect to Rashism, largely per SpinningSpark and GenoV84. The main issue with the article is that it is a WP:POVFORK and if it got expanded with the help of above sources then it will have great overlap with Putinism and Rashism. I agree with this argument. I also agree with SpinningSpark that there is absolutely nothing about "Fascism in Russia" on this article but "what could be like fascism in Russia".

The sources as already analyzed above come to the same conclusion.

To say that we should retain this article by merging other articles, as Piotrus suggests, would in fact only create more problems because it will result in duplication and the another major concern that we are having this article even when there is no proven "Fascism in Russia" would contradict every basic article about fascism.

There are also chances that it would create a bad precedent and cause creations of problematic articles like Fascism in China, Fascism in Syria, Fascism in Germany and so on, thus it is best to have this one deleted. TheRollBoss001 ( talk) 02:45, 20 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete as WP:POVFORK. I find the argument persuasive that there are no details about Russia on the Fascism article; thus, it would be WP:RGW to have this. Those saying that Rashism should be merged here are not making sense because it will only make this article more of a POV fork than it already is. desmay ( talk) 11:47, 20 May 2022 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Yes, the article does have a low quality now, but no, "Fascism in Russia" is not completely equal to "Rashism". For example, an article published in 1964 discussed the topic of Russian Fascism ( [11]), as another news published in 1978 by NYT also discussed the topic ( [12]). I have no idea why User:TheRollBoss001 thinks this is not a good precedent since we do have Fascism in New Zealand (redirect), Fascism in North America, British fascism and Nazism in Chile.-- ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 04:33, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

We have article on "Russian Fascism" article as Rashism. Why do we need to duplicate the article?

You are supposed to cite example of duplicate article about any other country except Russia, which is seeing two duplicate articles about the single subject.

Just speculating or doubtfully connecting links with fascism is going to mislead readers.

Have you read your sources? This source 1964 only asks "Was There a Russian Fascism?" and apart form the insertion of the word "fascism" on the title as a clickbait there is nothing about "fascism" there. This one about "a Russian fascist in Connecticut" and has no actual connection with "Fascism in Russia" and it explicitly states "The words “Russian” and “Fascist” do not seem to go together comfortably". >>>  Extorc. talk 15:22, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep. the re is enough information for a separate article. There do seem to be problems with content, which should be discussed separately. DGG ( talk ) 07:35, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

70% of article is a WP:POVFORK of Rashism. You need to ask if the content is WP:DUE. I don't see a single sentence in the entire article which justifies make-believe "fascism in Russia". >>>  Extorc. talk 15:22, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Comment Given the dubious and vague handwaves above, I am presenting an accurate analysis of the article as it fails to establish any so-called "Fascism in Russia", but creates mere speculations and ill-formed connections.

• Section no.1. Fascism in Russia#Before the Soviet Union:

It uses books that don't even mention the word "fascism" in the entire books. [13], [14] [15]

• Section no.2. Fascism in Russia#Soviet Union

• First subsection: Fascism in Russia#Joseph Stalin

Text is directly lifted from Red Fascism and relies mostly on the sentence that "Italian anarchist Luigi Fabbri described the term Red fascism to describe Communists who argued for the use of the methods of fascism to attain their goals". It is nothing about "Fascism in Russia".

• Second subsection: Fascism_in_Russia#After_World_War_II

The subject "Fascism in Russia" is itself being disputed in this section with "The labelling of the Russia, or indeed any country, fascist is complicated by the aftermath of World War II and appeals to the sense of righteousness of fighting Nazi Germany.[12][13][14]" Nothing about "Fascism in Russia".

• Third subsection: Fascism in Russia#1980s

Only one sentence and it is "In the 1980s, the group Pamyat ("Memory") was supporting the Black Hundreds ideology, which is close to fascism." This fringe "group" had no power and being "close to fascism" does not justify inclusion.

• Fourth subsection: Fascism in Russia#After the breakup of the Soviet Union:

Only one sentence that notes "The Liberal-Democratic Party of Russia, founded in 1990, is considered to be fascist.[4] The Russian National Unity was a fascist group created in 1990.[4]" It doesn't matter whether this is correct or not, what really matters is if they ever got any credit for the alleged fascism in Russia. Clearly that is not even the case here so this is WP:UNDUE.

• Section no.3. Fascism in Russia#Fascism in post Soviet Russia

Whole section is lifted from Rashism except the introductory sentence which is about Putinism and it has a source that say that "Russia today is not an illiberal democracy: It is an early-stage fascist state." Overall, the source hasn't admitted that Russia is fascist but it can become one. See Rashism for that.

• Section no.4. Fascism in Russia#Fascist groups in the 1930s and 1940s (émigrés)

Unsourced section listing all banned groups.

• Section no.5. Fascism in Russia#Post WW2 fascist groups

Another unsourced section that listed all banned groups.

• Section no.6. Fascism in Russia#Use of fascist as an insult

Paragraph forked from Fascist (insult).

The low quality WP:SYNTH, misrepresentation of sources, and WP:OR that has been done here could never make it to the main Fascism or Fascism and ideology article if it was done there.

The violation of WP:POVFORK is clear because no attempts were made to expand this subject anywhere else.

Over all, this article should not exist until it is established through scholarly consensus that Russia is a fascist state. But even then we would need to get rid of Rashism because 2 articles on the same subject just cannot exist. CharlesWain ( talk) 17:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete per above. Agree that we should not be having 2 articles about same topic . There is much overlap with Rashism and additional merging won't help. Additionally we also have Russian fascism and Category:Russian fascism which is certainly enough. Zakaria ښه راغلاست ( talk) 19:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

this article should not exist until it is established through scholarly consensus that Russia is a fascist state - actually, no. It is enough for article sources to meet Wikipedia:Notability for article to be kept. Look at those sources presented up before in this discussion. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 22:16, 22 May 2022 (UTC) reply

I haven't seen anyone dispute notability. Users seem opposed to apparent duplication. See WP:NOPAGE. Georgethedragonslayer ( talk) 02:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete per WP:NOPAGE. CharlesWain's analysis is spot on and I don't think there is any doubt anymore that this article overlaps with Rashism because this article was created as an alternative to Rashism (known as "Russian fascism") when the latter was redirected on April 2022. But circumstances seem to have been changed and Rashism has become a more established article as such there is clearly no need to continue retaining this article. Georgethedragonslayer ( talk) 02:59, 23 May 2022 (UTC) reply

  There are other times when it is better to cover notable topics, that clearly should be included in Wikipedia, as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context.. Which one is broader, Rashism or Fascism in Russia? Manyareasexpert ( talk) 07:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.