The result was keep. There is an emerging consensus that since the subject has now had a book professionally published during the debate, earlier arguments carry less weight. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
This article was previously deleted on the consensus view that prodigious references amounted to
WP:REFBOMBing. It was observed that this person, being a working journalist, has generated a great many bylines which - for a journalist - amount to
WP:ROUTINE coverage that doesn't pass the biographical depth needed for
WP:ANYBIO. The article was recreated with the rationale that a "full-length interview" now exists. That interview is a Q&A style interview on something called "bythesound.net.
[1]" It The interview is not
WP:INDEPENDENT and the source is not
WP:RS.
Note to closer: during the last AfD, the subject of this article aggressively lobbied her Twitter followers to aid her efforts on Wikipedia by confronting the "assholes" [sic] who had nominated it for deletion. This resulted in a large influx of SPAs and long-term sleeper accounts.
Chetsford (
talk) 13:40, 15 June 2020 (UTC); edited 06:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Chetsford, given your summary, I have to ask: is all this because you feel that Ms Barnett called you an asshole? If so, perhaps an apology can be arranged. Otherwise, there seems to be a conflation of two things: (1) the procedural errors Ms Barnett made when the page was first generated and she overreacted to BLP-inappropriate edits, and (2) the question of whether she is notable enough to merit an entry in the Wikipedia database.
These shouldn't have bearing on each other. For readers not familiar with (1), the procedural situation, a Wikipedian wrote up the entire incident in a blog post: http://coldfusioncommunity.net/erica-c-barnett-and-wikipedia-done-poorly-and-well/ . Since November 2019, it seems Ms Barnett has held back from further commissions of COI edits. I'm unclear on the extent to which Wikipedia policy is to remove pages of public figures who violate Wikipedia rules.
Regarding (2), I had to look up the term "REFBOMB" (a term which doesn't explicitly appear on the deletion discussion page): "a journalist might try to document every individual piece of work they ever produced for their employer, often citing that work's existence to itself". That's not what the happening here: most if not all of the articles linked are directly about Ms Barnett or some means by which she herself had an impact. Ms Barnett's page as it currently stands documents founding a media organization, instigating a small reform in the Seattle PD, a public confrontation with radio personalities, and a few other public events of note to at least some. All of these are far beyond mere mention of a byline.
In the previous discussion, one advocate for deletion wrote "There has to be multiple (two minimum; three is better), at length biographical essays or reportings about her life from cradle (or near cradle) to current".
There's something wrong here if this is the standard only for Ms Barnett. For example, Chetsford wrote a page on Raymond P. Ayres, whose highest achievement listed in his five-sentence Wikipedia page seems to be executive officer of the US Marine Band for some period beginning in the late 1960s. This is great! He should have a Wikipedia page! But if he should, then it is respectful to apply a similar standard of notability to others.
I recognize that there is no objective notability standard, but that is perhaps the point of a broad-interest site that covers both the history of the US Marine Band and figures in Seattle politics. But I do get the sense that the notability standard is being ratcheted up beyond the level of other pages because of the procedural issues or name-calling in (1), and I don't see how Wikipedia guidelines indicate that this is appropriate. B k ( talk) 17:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
If (1), the early procedural mess, is not an issue, then I suggest that it not be mentioned. If it is an issue, I suggest explaining exactly how the events from last year discussed in the above blog affect the deletion discussion.
Regarding (2), notability: Chetsford, I was unaware of the military guideline, though even without that, I stand by my stated opinion that it's a great page and should stand. The WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS guidance you point to indicates that the existence of other pages can be relevant to a deletion question:
"identifying articles of the same nature that have been established and continue to exist on Wikipedia may provide extremely important insight into the general concept of notability, levels of notability (what's notable: international, national, regional, state, provincial?), and whether or not a level and type of article should be on Wikipedia."
My read is that this is because GNG is fundamentally subjective, and comparison to other pages can help to calibrate it and break a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" deadlock. In the previous deletion discussion, I had pointed to Armenian journalists such as Levon Ananyan, whose page is more sparse than the one we are discussing, and which none of the readers of that thread flagged as not notable.
Besides the list already presented, it is easy to find journalists whose pages, unlike the one under discussion here, only discuss their reporting career, have been stable for years, and have never been flagged for deletion. I took a few minutes and found Geeta Guru-Murthy, Holly Williams (Australian journalist), Elizabeth Jackson (radio journalist), Kristian Foden-Vencil, Brian Lanker, and I could keep going—this is not a difficult exercise. Are these sufficient to establish a standard for what is currently treated as notability? If these pages are not notable, does the treatment of Ms Barnett indicate that it's time for a cleaning-of-house for journalist pages throughout the site?
The standard that a journalist must have several full biographies written about them before being notable is prima facie beyond what Wikipedia requires. I'm hoping that comparison with other pages that are stable and have never been marked for deletion may give us some way to more objectively handle the subjective question of notability. B k ( talk) 19:37, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
It's false to say bythesound.net is not independent. It's not owned, controlled by, or beholden to Barnett. Interviews definitely contribute weight to a bio's notability. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:37, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Citation overkill is entirely beside the point here. Refbombing is a style issue, where the average reader isn't helped by seeing 4 or more footnotes after each sentence. If this were a WP:GA nomination discussion, refbombing could be a legitimate style problem. We don't delete articles because "too many citations". That's absurd.
It is true that the number of times *other journalist* have given Barnett credit is quite large. It wouldn't be necessary to have to enumerate them all here if we didn't have editors denying her unique contribution. Denying that she is unique in Seattle media, that there are no other independent journalists who are so frequently credited with scoops by major organizations. You could find people of similar stature in other cities, I suppose, but I would expect such independent journalists who get credited with scoops as often as Barnett also meet the notability criteria.
Anyway, please cite which of the, in your words, "large influx of SPAs and long-term sleeper accounts" were identified as sockpuppets, meatpuppets, or otherwise had the !votes struck as invalid or canvassed. I can't find any evidence that anybody's contribution to the previous AfD was deemed invalid, or blocked for multiple accounts, or canvassing. Casting aspersions in this way without evidence is misleading. Most editors will read your accusation and accept it on good faith, but they shouldn't. You have cited no evidence. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:27, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Last time around, Chetsford deleted content as uncited, or tagged it with {{ Citation needed}}, so citations were dutifully provided, as requested. Now the very citations we were asked to give are "refbombing"? Which somehow is a reason to delete an article? Damned if you do, damned if you don't, am I right?
I would argue that the work of this discussion here is obscured filling up the page with unfounded accusations of canvassing from the previously closed AfD, repeatedly raising the non-issue of refbombing as if it had any bearing on notability, asserting an interview is a primary source, having to refute that it is a primary source for notability purposes, then asserting again it is a primary source. If you think an interview in an independent publication is self-published the same as anybody's personal MySpace or Twitter, then you go to that publication and make them publish an interview with yourself. Make them publish every word you say, unedited. It doesn't work, does it?
Independent organizations select whom to interview; interviewees don't select themselves. Interviewees don't control how much space is devoted to quotations of themselves, or which questions are asked, or which questions and answers are edited out.
The fact that an individual was interviews and it was published adds weight evidence of notability. A long, in-depth interview in a major publication adds a lot of weight. A short capsule interview, a single line quoted in an article about a different topic, in a minor publication adds only a little weight.
The facts asserted in quotations by a person interviewed can be WP:NOTRELIABLE, or only reliable as assertion of fact about the speaker. It is this sense in which an interview is a primary source and can be cited for a fact if: 1) the individual asserts about themselves, or 2) in which the individual is a widely recognized expert. But nobody is questioning any factual claims by Barnett about herself or her area of expertise in any interviews, and no facts in the article cite her quotes alone as a source. And even if they did, AfD is not cleanup, and it's irrelevant to an AfD discussion. Might want to re-read WP:INTERVIEW. The essay says exactly what I just said: "interviews as a whole contribute to the basic concept of notability. The material provided to the interview by the interviewer and the publication is secondary. The material provided by the interviewee may be primary, if the interviewee is speaking about his own life, or may be secondary, if the interviewee is recognized as an expert on the subject being reported."
Links to the specific sources which I claim meet the bar of WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO, as well as WP:NBOOK, are cited in my !vote. Others have pointed out which sources they think meet the bar. If you find those unconvincing, that's totally fine. But all these red herrings do not help anybody reach a consensus for either keep or delete; it only muddies the waters. All of what I'm saying is spelled out in Wikipedia:Arguments to make in deletion discussions and Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
It goes on to describe how some trivial interviews add little to notability, contrasted with serious interviews by respected media, meaning, exactly as I just said, "the material the interviewer brought to the table is secondary and independent and contributes to the claim that the subject has meet the requirements laid out in the general notability guideline."
Wikipedia:Interviews is only an essay, not policy, but it very much agrees with everything I've said. It's entirely legitimate to judge the interview cited here as adding weight to Barnett's notability. How much? It depends, but when you add that to the long list of other evidence, coming from multiple lines of reasoning -- impact on public events, unique contribution to her field, author of a notable book -- you'd really have to have a personal idiosyncratic desire to prevent Erica Barnett from having a bio on Wikipedia to insist the only choice is to delete.
It's fine to !vote delete, but support for that is not found in the pages you cited. They say the opposite. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Why do you have to badger everyone who dares to disagree with you? You already posted your arguments for why you think reviews at Kirkus and Publishers Weekly aren't sufficient. Everyone read what you said. Obviously what you said wasn't convincing for this editor. Unless you have something new to add to your previous argument against Kirkus, bludgeoning the point wastes everyone's time
Anyway, you're right. Is not a policy. You win that one, at least against the non-existent point of view that "kirkus = keep". Good one. Please don't do this with the next !vote and the next and the next. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Bludgeoning. AGF includes assuming that when an editor posts something at the bottom of a discussion, they did their due diligence, having read prior comments, in order to add to the ongoing discussion rather than repeat points already made. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 18:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
With Kirkus, PW, and the NYT, plus the local ones, the memoir now easily meets WP:BOOKCRIT, as "the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself". The simplest thing is to keep the bio article, and allow local consensus to deal with whether to maintain a bio article with a section about the memior, or move to a book article with a biographical subsection, or split into two articles. All questions that are outside the scope of AfD. Continuing to split hairs over notability is moving into WP:SNOWBALL territory. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The result was keep. There is an emerging consensus that since the subject has now had a book professionally published during the debate, earlier arguments carry less weight. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
This article was previously deleted on the consensus view that prodigious references amounted to
WP:REFBOMBing. It was observed that this person, being a working journalist, has generated a great many bylines which - for a journalist - amount to
WP:ROUTINE coverage that doesn't pass the biographical depth needed for
WP:ANYBIO. The article was recreated with the rationale that a "full-length interview" now exists. That interview is a Q&A style interview on something called "bythesound.net.
[1]" It The interview is not
WP:INDEPENDENT and the source is not
WP:RS.
Note to closer: during the last AfD, the subject of this article aggressively lobbied her Twitter followers to aid her efforts on Wikipedia by confronting the "assholes" [sic] who had nominated it for deletion. This resulted in a large influx of SPAs and long-term sleeper accounts.
Chetsford (
talk) 13:40, 15 June 2020 (UTC); edited 06:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Chetsford, given your summary, I have to ask: is all this because you feel that Ms Barnett called you an asshole? If so, perhaps an apology can be arranged. Otherwise, there seems to be a conflation of two things: (1) the procedural errors Ms Barnett made when the page was first generated and she overreacted to BLP-inappropriate edits, and (2) the question of whether she is notable enough to merit an entry in the Wikipedia database.
These shouldn't have bearing on each other. For readers not familiar with (1), the procedural situation, a Wikipedian wrote up the entire incident in a blog post: http://coldfusioncommunity.net/erica-c-barnett-and-wikipedia-done-poorly-and-well/ . Since November 2019, it seems Ms Barnett has held back from further commissions of COI edits. I'm unclear on the extent to which Wikipedia policy is to remove pages of public figures who violate Wikipedia rules.
Regarding (2), I had to look up the term "REFBOMB" (a term which doesn't explicitly appear on the deletion discussion page): "a journalist might try to document every individual piece of work they ever produced for their employer, often citing that work's existence to itself". That's not what the happening here: most if not all of the articles linked are directly about Ms Barnett or some means by which she herself had an impact. Ms Barnett's page as it currently stands documents founding a media organization, instigating a small reform in the Seattle PD, a public confrontation with radio personalities, and a few other public events of note to at least some. All of these are far beyond mere mention of a byline.
In the previous discussion, one advocate for deletion wrote "There has to be multiple (two minimum; three is better), at length biographical essays or reportings about her life from cradle (or near cradle) to current".
There's something wrong here if this is the standard only for Ms Barnett. For example, Chetsford wrote a page on Raymond P. Ayres, whose highest achievement listed in his five-sentence Wikipedia page seems to be executive officer of the US Marine Band for some period beginning in the late 1960s. This is great! He should have a Wikipedia page! But if he should, then it is respectful to apply a similar standard of notability to others.
I recognize that there is no objective notability standard, but that is perhaps the point of a broad-interest site that covers both the history of the US Marine Band and figures in Seattle politics. But I do get the sense that the notability standard is being ratcheted up beyond the level of other pages because of the procedural issues or name-calling in (1), and I don't see how Wikipedia guidelines indicate that this is appropriate. B k ( talk) 17:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
If (1), the early procedural mess, is not an issue, then I suggest that it not be mentioned. If it is an issue, I suggest explaining exactly how the events from last year discussed in the above blog affect the deletion discussion.
Regarding (2), notability: Chetsford, I was unaware of the military guideline, though even without that, I stand by my stated opinion that it's a great page and should stand. The WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS guidance you point to indicates that the existence of other pages can be relevant to a deletion question:
"identifying articles of the same nature that have been established and continue to exist on Wikipedia may provide extremely important insight into the general concept of notability, levels of notability (what's notable: international, national, regional, state, provincial?), and whether or not a level and type of article should be on Wikipedia."
My read is that this is because GNG is fundamentally subjective, and comparison to other pages can help to calibrate it and break a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" deadlock. In the previous deletion discussion, I had pointed to Armenian journalists such as Levon Ananyan, whose page is more sparse than the one we are discussing, and which none of the readers of that thread flagged as not notable.
Besides the list already presented, it is easy to find journalists whose pages, unlike the one under discussion here, only discuss their reporting career, have been stable for years, and have never been flagged for deletion. I took a few minutes and found Geeta Guru-Murthy, Holly Williams (Australian journalist), Elizabeth Jackson (radio journalist), Kristian Foden-Vencil, Brian Lanker, and I could keep going—this is not a difficult exercise. Are these sufficient to establish a standard for what is currently treated as notability? If these pages are not notable, does the treatment of Ms Barnett indicate that it's time for a cleaning-of-house for journalist pages throughout the site?
The standard that a journalist must have several full biographies written about them before being notable is prima facie beyond what Wikipedia requires. I'm hoping that comparison with other pages that are stable and have never been marked for deletion may give us some way to more objectively handle the subjective question of notability. B k ( talk) 19:37, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
It's false to say bythesound.net is not independent. It's not owned, controlled by, or beholden to Barnett. Interviews definitely contribute weight to a bio's notability. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 21:37, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
Citation overkill is entirely beside the point here. Refbombing is a style issue, where the average reader isn't helped by seeing 4 or more footnotes after each sentence. If this were a WP:GA nomination discussion, refbombing could be a legitimate style problem. We don't delete articles because "too many citations". That's absurd.
It is true that the number of times *other journalist* have given Barnett credit is quite large. It wouldn't be necessary to have to enumerate them all here if we didn't have editors denying her unique contribution. Denying that she is unique in Seattle media, that there are no other independent journalists who are so frequently credited with scoops by major organizations. You could find people of similar stature in other cities, I suppose, but I would expect such independent journalists who get credited with scoops as often as Barnett also meet the notability criteria.
Anyway, please cite which of the, in your words, "large influx of SPAs and long-term sleeper accounts" were identified as sockpuppets, meatpuppets, or otherwise had the !votes struck as invalid or canvassed. I can't find any evidence that anybody's contribution to the previous AfD was deemed invalid, or blocked for multiple accounts, or canvassing. Casting aspersions in this way without evidence is misleading. Most editors will read your accusation and accept it on good faith, but they shouldn't. You have cited no evidence. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:27, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Last time around, Chetsford deleted content as uncited, or tagged it with {{ Citation needed}}, so citations were dutifully provided, as requested. Now the very citations we were asked to give are "refbombing"? Which somehow is a reason to delete an article? Damned if you do, damned if you don't, am I right?
I would argue that the work of this discussion here is obscured filling up the page with unfounded accusations of canvassing from the previously closed AfD, repeatedly raising the non-issue of refbombing as if it had any bearing on notability, asserting an interview is a primary source, having to refute that it is a primary source for notability purposes, then asserting again it is a primary source. If you think an interview in an independent publication is self-published the same as anybody's personal MySpace or Twitter, then you go to that publication and make them publish an interview with yourself. Make them publish every word you say, unedited. It doesn't work, does it?
Independent organizations select whom to interview; interviewees don't select themselves. Interviewees don't control how much space is devoted to quotations of themselves, or which questions are asked, or which questions and answers are edited out.
The fact that an individual was interviews and it was published adds weight evidence of notability. A long, in-depth interview in a major publication adds a lot of weight. A short capsule interview, a single line quoted in an article about a different topic, in a minor publication adds only a little weight.
The facts asserted in quotations by a person interviewed can be WP:NOTRELIABLE, or only reliable as assertion of fact about the speaker. It is this sense in which an interview is a primary source and can be cited for a fact if: 1) the individual asserts about themselves, or 2) in which the individual is a widely recognized expert. But nobody is questioning any factual claims by Barnett about herself or her area of expertise in any interviews, and no facts in the article cite her quotes alone as a source. And even if they did, AfD is not cleanup, and it's irrelevant to an AfD discussion. Might want to re-read WP:INTERVIEW. The essay says exactly what I just said: "interviews as a whole contribute to the basic concept of notability. The material provided to the interview by the interviewer and the publication is secondary. The material provided by the interviewee may be primary, if the interviewee is speaking about his own life, or may be secondary, if the interviewee is recognized as an expert on the subject being reported."
Links to the specific sources which I claim meet the bar of WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO, as well as WP:NBOOK, are cited in my !vote. Others have pointed out which sources they think meet the bar. If you find those unconvincing, that's totally fine. But all these red herrings do not help anybody reach a consensus for either keep or delete; it only muddies the waters. All of what I'm saying is spelled out in Wikipedia:Arguments to make in deletion discussions and Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
It goes on to describe how some trivial interviews add little to notability, contrasted with serious interviews by respected media, meaning, exactly as I just said, "the material the interviewer brought to the table is secondary and independent and contributes to the claim that the subject has meet the requirements laid out in the general notability guideline."
Wikipedia:Interviews is only an essay, not policy, but it very much agrees with everything I've said. It's entirely legitimate to judge the interview cited here as adding weight to Barnett's notability. How much? It depends, but when you add that to the long list of other evidence, coming from multiple lines of reasoning -- impact on public events, unique contribution to her field, author of a notable book -- you'd really have to have a personal idiosyncratic desire to prevent Erica Barnett from having a bio on Wikipedia to insist the only choice is to delete.
It's fine to !vote delete, but support for that is not found in the pages you cited. They say the opposite. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Why do you have to badger everyone who dares to disagree with you? You already posted your arguments for why you think reviews at Kirkus and Publishers Weekly aren't sufficient. Everyone read what you said. Obviously what you said wasn't convincing for this editor. Unless you have something new to add to your previous argument against Kirkus, bludgeoning the point wastes everyone's time
Anyway, you're right. Is not a policy. You win that one, at least against the non-existent point of view that "kirkus = keep". Good one. Please don't do this with the next !vote and the next and the next. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Bludgeoning. AGF includes assuming that when an editor posts something at the bottom of a discussion, they did their due diligence, having read prior comments, in order to add to the ongoing discussion rather than repeat points already made. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 18:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
With Kirkus, PW, and the NYT, plus the local ones, the memoir now easily meets WP:BOOKCRIT, as "the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself". The simplest thing is to keep the bio article, and allow local consensus to deal with whether to maintain a bio article with a section about the memior, or move to a book article with a biographical subsection, or split into two articles. All questions that are outside the scope of AfD. Continuing to split hairs over notability is moving into WP:SNOWBALL territory. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)