- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Withdrawn by nom (non-admin closure) BilledMammal ( talk) 09:14, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Eric Thornton
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- Eric Thornton ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTSCRIT #5. Tagged for notability since March.
Prod removed with the justification probably significant figure in Belgian football at the time, played in the Olympics which was regarded as the top worlds football competition before introduction of World Cup also definitely has off-line sources as a result
BilledMammal (
talk)
00:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, Olympics, Belgium, and England. BilledMammal ( talk) 00:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep There's a lot of coverage of him in Belgian newspapers during his lifetime and some in other sources. This is just a few examples. He seems to be a well known footballer and club official in Belgium at the time, who was remembered with a number of editorial obituaries in different newspapers when he died. In addition to playing in the Olympics he had a role in some interesting early disqualification cases in the establishment of national teams because he was a British subject (contra his participation in the Olympics for Belgium). There seems to be at least one athletic prize named after him (or offered by him and named after him?) during his lifetime. He was also remembered, if I'm reading correctly, for his role in organizing Belgian national football in Paris during the First World War. --
Jahaza (
talk)
04:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- k. (28 November 1945). "Eric Thornton n'est plus". La Dernière Heure. p. 3. Retrieved 1 September 2022.(editorial obituary)
- Mauquoi, Maurice (6 December 1930). "A propos du Challenge Général de la L.R.B.A." Le Vingtième Siècle. p. 5. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
- "Beerschot en de Belgische athletiek zwaar getroffen: De heer Eric Thornton overleden". Gazet Van Mechelen. 28 November 1945. p. 4. Retrieved 1 September 2022. (editorial obit with large photo)
- de Behault, Maurice (5 December 1945). "La belle oeuvre accomplie par M. Eric Thornton". Le Peuple. p. 3. Retrieved 1 September 2022. (column in remembrance shortly after death, same newspaper ran a very brief editorial obit on Nov. 28 [1])
- Menary, Steve (2011). GB United?. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
- Cazal, Jean-Michel; Cazal, Pierre; Oreggia, Michel (1998). Hohman, Jean (ed.).
L'intégrale de l'équipe de France de football, 1904-1998. p. 18. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
- (ec) Going source by source, as
originally presented:
- Passing mention; lists a number of players, and says that they were involved in organizing Belgian football in the UK. Adds a side note that he was a generous patron for Belgian army footballers from 1914-1918, but it is still clearly not WP:SIGCOV.
- Passing mention; all it says is that Robert Querin offended his quests by rejecting the Anglo-Belgian goalkeeper Eric Thornton.
- Passing mention; all it says is that Thornton was dismissed "last Tuesday" due to the championships only being open to Belgians.
- If neither of can check the contents, it's not much use.
- Passing mention; all it says is that the ten players Belgium sent to the Paris Olympics included an Englishman, Eric Thornton.
- I'm not even sure why you presented these sources; even the most comprehensive is clearly not
WP:SIGCOV? If any of the additional sources you provided do include SIGCOV, could you please provide a quote or description of that SIGCOV, as I am not willing to spend the time to go through them given the lack of coverage within your original five.
BilledMammal (
talk)
05:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- "I am not willing to spend the time to go through them" You need to 1) AGF and 2) actually look at the sources if you want to have an opinion on them. You seem to have looked at the wrong article for number 1. I've added a different link that links directly to the issue in question, which makes it harder to find the article, but also harder to look at the wrong article from the same newspaper. I wrote out full citations for a reason, you can't just use the links and then not make sure you're at the right part of the page that loads. It's an obituary for a particular person, so it's not a passing mention. I have already provided "description of that SIGCOV" for the updated version.--
Jahaza (
talk)
05:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- You're right, I did look at the wrong article for the first one; I was looking at one from May 1945, not November. And you're right; that one does appear to be WP:SIGCOV, but one is not enough to meet WP:GNG.
You need to 1) AGF and 2) actually look at the sources if you want to have an opinion on them.
- I did, and that's when I found that at least three of them should never have been linked as no editor could reasonably consider them to contribute to GNG and including them despite this wastes editors time.- As such, it's not unreasonable for me to be a little more sceptical of any additional sources you put forward and so in line with this could you please provide either a description beyond "editorial obit", or preferably, in line with
WP:RSUE, a quote of relevant portions of the article.
BilledMammal (
talk)
06:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Partial Excerpt Gazet Van Mechelen. 28 November 1945: "Ouderen van dagen zullen zich dezen stoeren sportman, dezen pionier van de voetbal- en athletickgedachte in ons Belgunland wel herinneren. Want reeds in de jaren 1904-1905 speelde Eric Thronton in ons land en wel voor de Leopold Club van Brussel. Later is de heer Thronton naar Antwerpen overgestoken en bracht hij de Beerschotkleuren mede op het voorplan. Hij speelde alsdan als doelverdediger en heeft menigeniet-onaardige prestraties op zijn actief. Maar voetbalspelen duurt niet eeuwig en zoo zagenwe de Beerschot athletickafdeeling in de laatete twintig jaren een goweldigen sprong opwaarts maken, dank aan de moreele en materieele hulp welke de heer Thornton haar schonk. Zoo kunnen we hem als de groote bezieler betitelen van de jaarlijksche internationale meeting, welke Beerschot A.C. gaf. Zoo vondenwe het dubbelapitig als de heer Thornton ons in 1940 verliet om naar zijn vaderland terug te keeren bij hetuitbreken van den laatsen wereldoorlog. We hebben voor eenige maanden met genoegen de terugkomst van dezzen in de sport vergrijsden weldoner kunnen aankondigen. Het weerzien maakte Beerschot en alle rechtgeaarde sportmannen toch zoo gelukkig, maar nu is die groote vriend ons voor goed ontvallen.
- "Hij ruste zacht na een leven waarin veel goeds werd gedaan."
- Partial Excerpt Le Peuple 5 December 1945:
- "Il n'est pas il ne sera jamais trop tard pour parler d'Eric Thornton.
- "Sa disparition laisee un vide irremplacable.
- "Voila un homme, Anglais jusqu'au bout des ongles, mais qui vouait a la Belgique un amour aussi fervent que s'il avait ete un de ses enfants.
- "Sa vie durant, il fut un mecene laissant parler son grand coeur. Citer ses interventions serait fastidieux. Philantrope, desinteresse, il fallait l'etre chez nous pour s'occuper du sport pauvre qu'est l'athletisme.
- "Il etait toujours pret a emboiter le pas a qui osait lui presenter un plan hardi et alors rien ne pouvair l'areter. Le jour ou je lui demontrai que nos athletes continueraient de pietiner dans leur mediocrite: 1) parce qu'ils n'avaient pas de techniciens pur les entrainer par des methodes adequates 2) qu'il manquaient de contacts avec l'etranger, Eric Thornton nous donna carte blanche illimitee.
- [Organizes international athletic competition that is attended by 18-20k spectators per year, with the cream of athletes from around the world for the benefit of Belgian athletes.]
- "Briser ce merveilleuz elan et a present l'animateur comme on la appele un jour, s'en est alle lui aussi...
- "En bon Anglais, il aimait le sport pour le sport. Je le vois encore toujours, rayonnant de plaisir, remettre au petit Polonais Kusociuski (disparu lui aussi) un chronometre en or, recompense (non prevue au programme) pour son record du monde des 3000 metres. Je vois aussi son mecontentement lorsque le speaker crut pouvoir citer et le geste et le nom du genereux mecene! Car Eric Thornton detestait la reclame.
- "Il etait sportif anglais cent pour cent.
- "Comme tel, les Beerschotmen et les athletes belges ne l'oublieront jaimais."
- --
Jahaza (
talk)
07:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you; the first I had already reviewed, following you pointing out that I had been looking at the wrong article, but the second I hadn't seen. Reading it, and your previous comment that it was a
column in remembrance shortly after death
, I get the impression that it is an opinion column; is that correct? If so, while it is significant, it cannot count towards WP:GNG as per WP:RSOPINION it is only reliable for the authors opinion, not for facts. BilledMammal ( talk) 07:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC)- "the first I had already reviewed" It would have saved me a bunch of work if you had said that instead of insisting that I provide a quotation. Are you sure you're not confusing it with the one from the same date in La Dernière Heure which you previously said you had viewed.
- To insist that because we have a substantial obituary that tends towards opinion instead of straight news we're going to delete the article whereas if the author had kept his feelings out of it, we'd keep it because we'd have three for GNG, is an overly rigid application of the rules for deletion.--
Jahaza (
talk)
07:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- You're right; it is different, and it does count towards GNG. I still think the sourcing is a little thin (particularly given the third one doesn't count towards GNG) but it meets current guidelines, so I'll withdraw this nomination - thank you. BilledMammal ( talk) 09:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you; the first I had already reviewed, following you pointing out that I had been looking at the wrong article, but the second I hadn't seen. Reading it, and your previous comment that it was a
- "I am not willing to spend the time to go through them" You need to 1) AGF and 2) actually look at the sources if you want to have an opinion on them. You seem to have looked at the wrong article for number 1. I've added a different link that links directly to the issue in question, which makes it harder to find the article, but also harder to look at the wrong article from the same newspaper. I wrote out full citations for a reason, you can't just use the links and then not make sure you're at the right part of the page that loads. It's an obituary for a particular person, so it's not a passing mention. I have already provided "description of that SIGCOV" for the updated version.--
Jahaza (
talk)
05:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- (ec) Going source by source, as
originally presented:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Withdrawn by nom (non-admin closure) BilledMammal ( talk) 09:14, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Eric Thornton
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Eric Thornton ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTSCRIT #5. Tagged for notability since March.
Prod removed with the justification probably significant figure in Belgian football at the time, played in the Olympics which was regarded as the top worlds football competition before introduction of World Cup also definitely has off-line sources as a result
BilledMammal (
talk)
00:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, Olympics, Belgium, and England. BilledMammal ( talk) 00:05, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep There's a lot of coverage of him in Belgian newspapers during his lifetime and some in other sources. This is just a few examples. He seems to be a well known footballer and club official in Belgium at the time, who was remembered with a number of editorial obituaries in different newspapers when he died. In addition to playing in the Olympics he had a role in some interesting early disqualification cases in the establishment of national teams because he was a British subject (contra his participation in the Olympics for Belgium). There seems to be at least one athletic prize named after him (or offered by him and named after him?) during his lifetime. He was also remembered, if I'm reading correctly, for his role in organizing Belgian national football in Paris during the First World War. --
Jahaza (
talk)
04:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- k. (28 November 1945). "Eric Thornton n'est plus". La Dernière Heure. p. 3. Retrieved 1 September 2022.(editorial obituary)
- Mauquoi, Maurice (6 December 1930). "A propos du Challenge Général de la L.R.B.A." Le Vingtième Siècle. p. 5. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
- "Beerschot en de Belgische athletiek zwaar getroffen: De heer Eric Thornton overleden". Gazet Van Mechelen. 28 November 1945. p. 4. Retrieved 1 September 2022. (editorial obit with large photo)
- de Behault, Maurice (5 December 1945). "La belle oeuvre accomplie par M. Eric Thornton". Le Peuple. p. 3. Retrieved 1 September 2022. (column in remembrance shortly after death, same newspaper ran a very brief editorial obit on Nov. 28 [1])
- Menary, Steve (2011). GB United?. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
- Cazal, Jean-Michel; Cazal, Pierre; Oreggia, Michel (1998). Hohman, Jean (ed.).
L'intégrale de l'équipe de France de football, 1904-1998. p. 18. Retrieved 1 September 2022.
- (ec) Going source by source, as
originally presented:
- Passing mention; lists a number of players, and says that they were involved in organizing Belgian football in the UK. Adds a side note that he was a generous patron for Belgian army footballers from 1914-1918, but it is still clearly not WP:SIGCOV.
- Passing mention; all it says is that Robert Querin offended his quests by rejecting the Anglo-Belgian goalkeeper Eric Thornton.
- Passing mention; all it says is that Thornton was dismissed "last Tuesday" due to the championships only being open to Belgians.
- If neither of can check the contents, it's not much use.
- Passing mention; all it says is that the ten players Belgium sent to the Paris Olympics included an Englishman, Eric Thornton.
- I'm not even sure why you presented these sources; even the most comprehensive is clearly not
WP:SIGCOV? If any of the additional sources you provided do include SIGCOV, could you please provide a quote or description of that SIGCOV, as I am not willing to spend the time to go through them given the lack of coverage within your original five.
BilledMammal (
talk)
05:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- "I am not willing to spend the time to go through them" You need to 1) AGF and 2) actually look at the sources if you want to have an opinion on them. You seem to have looked at the wrong article for number 1. I've added a different link that links directly to the issue in question, which makes it harder to find the article, but also harder to look at the wrong article from the same newspaper. I wrote out full citations for a reason, you can't just use the links and then not make sure you're at the right part of the page that loads. It's an obituary for a particular person, so it's not a passing mention. I have already provided "description of that SIGCOV" for the updated version.--
Jahaza (
talk)
05:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- You're right, I did look at the wrong article for the first one; I was looking at one from May 1945, not November. And you're right; that one does appear to be WP:SIGCOV, but one is not enough to meet WP:GNG.
You need to 1) AGF and 2) actually look at the sources if you want to have an opinion on them.
- I did, and that's when I found that at least three of them should never have been linked as no editor could reasonably consider them to contribute to GNG and including them despite this wastes editors time.- As such, it's not unreasonable for me to be a little more sceptical of any additional sources you put forward and so in line with this could you please provide either a description beyond "editorial obit", or preferably, in line with
WP:RSUE, a quote of relevant portions of the article.
BilledMammal (
talk)
06:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Partial Excerpt Gazet Van Mechelen. 28 November 1945: "Ouderen van dagen zullen zich dezen stoeren sportman, dezen pionier van de voetbal- en athletickgedachte in ons Belgunland wel herinneren. Want reeds in de jaren 1904-1905 speelde Eric Thronton in ons land en wel voor de Leopold Club van Brussel. Later is de heer Thronton naar Antwerpen overgestoken en bracht hij de Beerschotkleuren mede op het voorplan. Hij speelde alsdan als doelverdediger en heeft menigeniet-onaardige prestraties op zijn actief. Maar voetbalspelen duurt niet eeuwig en zoo zagenwe de Beerschot athletickafdeeling in de laatete twintig jaren een goweldigen sprong opwaarts maken, dank aan de moreele en materieele hulp welke de heer Thornton haar schonk. Zoo kunnen we hem als de groote bezieler betitelen van de jaarlijksche internationale meeting, welke Beerschot A.C. gaf. Zoo vondenwe het dubbelapitig als de heer Thornton ons in 1940 verliet om naar zijn vaderland terug te keeren bij hetuitbreken van den laatsen wereldoorlog. We hebben voor eenige maanden met genoegen de terugkomst van dezzen in de sport vergrijsden weldoner kunnen aankondigen. Het weerzien maakte Beerschot en alle rechtgeaarde sportmannen toch zoo gelukkig, maar nu is die groote vriend ons voor goed ontvallen.
- "Hij ruste zacht na een leven waarin veel goeds werd gedaan."
- Partial Excerpt Le Peuple 5 December 1945:
- "Il n'est pas il ne sera jamais trop tard pour parler d'Eric Thornton.
- "Sa disparition laisee un vide irremplacable.
- "Voila un homme, Anglais jusqu'au bout des ongles, mais qui vouait a la Belgique un amour aussi fervent que s'il avait ete un de ses enfants.
- "Sa vie durant, il fut un mecene laissant parler son grand coeur. Citer ses interventions serait fastidieux. Philantrope, desinteresse, il fallait l'etre chez nous pour s'occuper du sport pauvre qu'est l'athletisme.
- "Il etait toujours pret a emboiter le pas a qui osait lui presenter un plan hardi et alors rien ne pouvair l'areter. Le jour ou je lui demontrai que nos athletes continueraient de pietiner dans leur mediocrite: 1) parce qu'ils n'avaient pas de techniciens pur les entrainer par des methodes adequates 2) qu'il manquaient de contacts avec l'etranger, Eric Thornton nous donna carte blanche illimitee.
- [Organizes international athletic competition that is attended by 18-20k spectators per year, with the cream of athletes from around the world for the benefit of Belgian athletes.]
- "Briser ce merveilleuz elan et a present l'animateur comme on la appele un jour, s'en est alle lui aussi...
- "En bon Anglais, il aimait le sport pour le sport. Je le vois encore toujours, rayonnant de plaisir, remettre au petit Polonais Kusociuski (disparu lui aussi) un chronometre en or, recompense (non prevue au programme) pour son record du monde des 3000 metres. Je vois aussi son mecontentement lorsque le speaker crut pouvoir citer et le geste et le nom du genereux mecene! Car Eric Thornton detestait la reclame.
- "Il etait sportif anglais cent pour cent.
- "Comme tel, les Beerschotmen et les athletes belges ne l'oublieront jaimais."
- --
Jahaza (
talk)
07:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you; the first I had already reviewed, following you pointing out that I had been looking at the wrong article, but the second I hadn't seen. Reading it, and your previous comment that it was a
column in remembrance shortly after death
, I get the impression that it is an opinion column; is that correct? If so, while it is significant, it cannot count towards WP:GNG as per WP:RSOPINION it is only reliable for the authors opinion, not for facts. BilledMammal ( talk) 07:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC)- "the first I had already reviewed" It would have saved me a bunch of work if you had said that instead of insisting that I provide a quotation. Are you sure you're not confusing it with the one from the same date in La Dernière Heure which you previously said you had viewed.
- To insist that because we have a substantial obituary that tends towards opinion instead of straight news we're going to delete the article whereas if the author had kept his feelings out of it, we'd keep it because we'd have three for GNG, is an overly rigid application of the rules for deletion.--
Jahaza (
talk)
07:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- You're right; it is different, and it does count towards GNG. I still think the sourcing is a little thin (particularly given the third one doesn't count towards GNG) but it meets current guidelines, so I'll withdraw this nomination - thank you. BilledMammal ( talk) 09:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you; the first I had already reviewed, following you pointing out that I had been looking at the wrong article, but the second I hadn't seen. Reading it, and your previous comment that it was a
- "I am not willing to spend the time to go through them" You need to 1) AGF and 2) actually look at the sources if you want to have an opinion on them. You seem to have looked at the wrong article for number 1. I've added a different link that links directly to the issue in question, which makes it harder to find the article, but also harder to look at the wrong article from the same newspaper. I wrote out full citations for a reason, you can't just use the links and then not make sure you're at the right part of the page that loads. It's an obituary for a particular person, so it's not a passing mention. I have already provided "description of that SIGCOV" for the updated version.--
Jahaza (
talk)
05:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- (ec) Going source by source, as
originally presented:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.