- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Views are split between keeping as is or moving to draft space. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:14, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
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Fails WP:MUSICBIO for Non-notable rapper. Some coverage as possible celebratory but not a musician. No fans, no plays, no social media. scope_creep Talk 10:05, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 10:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Zimbabwe-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 10:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Greetings to you from Zimbabwe ,to my knowledge we don't judge notability of musicians by plays ,social media because if we did that everyone who can manipulate numbers would have a Wikipedia.We however judge by Notability which includes what independent sources say and as the creater of this article i used This criteria for this articlie
- 1 .Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1]
- 11 .Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network
- To start with 1 , there is much information from blogs and other sites for the subject but with the help of @ Utopes: who declined the article first and helped me find better sources i was left with sources from only top news publications in Zimbabwe .That includes Bulawayo24 , Newsguard , Newsday , Oyosnews , Nehanda Radio .And i believe only notable musicians could have articles about them and even follow ups on the albums they didn't release.
- You can also see international News publications talking about this artist and if you take time to go through the comments of the news articles you will see that the subject has 'fans' maybe across Zimbabwe . Storifynews, Globenews24, Koenzagh. To end with 11 ,most radio charts in Zimbabwe are constantly updated but you can see journalist in most news articles mentioning that he is toping the radio charts , Recheck NehandaRadio and on this UK radio station his track Mama is in the top 10 Yami radio
- The other references are magazines but for now ,i sticked with newspapers
- To me he qualify's on those 2 categories ,however I'm still learning ,i will be happy to learn why he doesn't qualify and make myself a better editor ,thank you.
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
13:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- That's a goodly amount of coverage. I think it probably enough for
WP:SIGCOV and
WP:HEY if the article is updated but I can't find any music to conform he is a musician. I'll wait to see what other folk say.
scope_creep
Talk
21:40, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment @ Scope creep: ,greetings from Zimbabwe once again ,firstly thank you for acknowledging that he does qualify for something ,i was starting to think maybe everything i was learning ,i was learning it wrong haha but now i'm feeling better.As for music ,i ran a google check and i clicked songs and i saw you will find a list of songs ,his music is on plartforms like apple music ,amazon ,spotify etc which i believe are for selling music so its probably not easy to listen to it unless you are subscribed to the plartforms ,however a Youtube search will give you his music video Mabvuta Video which has 14k+ views and you will be surprised most celebrities in Zimbabwe don't get that much views because music in Zimbabwe is highly circulated in the streets and radios ,online seems like a last option for the artists but that's a discussion for another day,so yeah that's his music for you. The article was probably less than 24hrs old before you nominated it for deletion ,which i think maybe if you had given me or anyone else a chance of WP:BEFORE which states somewhere that a new article should be given time to be developed ,i'm sure it will be looking better as time goes since the subject is a living person.So anyway while we wait for other folks ,i would like to know how i can make it better ,should i put inline citations to the music?I think the free one is on youtube but we removed youtube references before the other reviewers said youtube shouldn't be used as a source ,i'm still learning please don't hesitate to walk with me through this ,Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 07:26, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- 14k+ plays isn't sufficient. 250k followers is the number of followers needed to become notable via social media. There is no plays nor fans on Youtube, Spotify, Deezer, Soundcloud, Apple Music nor Amazon. Not a sausage.
scope_creep
Talk
13:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Once again @ Scope creep: ,not that i disagree but i would love to read that somewhere because so far i haven't came across the number of followers needed for someone to be notable, i'm still learning .I however have a problem of judging a musician by plays or views because that is not fans ,you and i know that numbers can be manipulated ,people are buying followers and views ,so its kinda debatable.To me what tells us someone has fans is the urge by Newspapers and Magazines to write something about that person (Because of sales) ,awards and radio rotation because we know for someone to be in the charts they are voted for. Also i think we should acknowledge that the artists from developing countries like Zimbabwe,Mozambique and Malawi in Africa are different from developed countries in Africa like Nigeria ,South Africa and Ghana ,since you took time to check plays maybe you can take a look on how the artists are different my only guess is because the developing countries don't use much internet as developed countries or something to do with resources but that just my own view .I chose to contribute for Africa because i'm African and i have noticed that many African celebrities especially from Southern Africa don't have Wikipedia despite being well known in their countries ,so i actually do my research on these things,so maybe that's why i see things differently. Lastly this is a question ,how many categories does someone has to qualify on to have a Wikipedia about them? to my knowledge someone has to qualify on at least one but i'm not sure if i read it right? .Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 18:29, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- 14k+ plays isn't sufficient. 250k followers is the number of followers needed to become notable via social media. There is no plays nor fans on Youtube, Spotify, Deezer, Soundcloud, Apple Music nor Amazon. Not a sausage.
scope_creep
Talk
13:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- That's a goodly amount of coverage. I think it probably enough for
WP:SIGCOV and
WP:HEY if the article is updated but I can't find any music to conform he is a musician. I'll wait to see what other folk say.
scope_creep
Talk
21:40, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Weak Keep. I'm just convinced that the subject passes criteria 1 of the WP:NMUSIC. I had a long and insightful conversation with the creator after I originally declined their draft, which can be found here. Utopes ( talk) 22:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hi @
Utopes: The usual practice is to present the evidence on here. I think it would be discounted by the closing admin if you don't. I had a look on your talk page but couldn't see nowt.
scope_creep
Talk
22:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Apologies, there was an edit conflict. I do plan on supporting my claim, I just wanted to post a link to the discussion in the voting comment (I promise I'm not a rookie).
Utopes (
talk)
22:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Alright. Here is the rationale that I'm coming from. It is true that the subject does not meet the typical notability requirements to have an article. None of his songs have debuted on the Zimbabwean top charts, he did not perform on a record label, etc. This was the first thing that I noticed when I read the draft, and I declined it for this very reason. Most of the sources used were not reliable, independent sources. However, after I turned my back to the case, the author reached out to me and requested my reconsideration. After politely elaborating my reasoning back, it appeared that there were sources that were verifiable, including
[1] and
[2]. Now, I did come by these sources in my
WP:BEFORE, and was convinced that they weren't large enough or just gossip articles, so they couldn't be used to demonstrate notability. However, I don't live in Zimbabwe; apparently, this is just what news is in the country. That's when I realized that the standards of accuracy differ across country borders, something that I didn't understand before. Large media organizations such as CNN doesn't have heavy operations in countries with lacking economies. Because of this, consistent coverage from large media organizations simply does not exist, and the locals have to rely on smaller publications that don't encompass large regions. With this new light shed from the author, I took a new look at the article and... a lot of the sources were still not reliable. However, there were some magazines that I above linked that have limited regional span, but are apparently award-winning for these regions. Because of that, I was willing to grant these sources the verifiability required and gave it a weak pass. I may have overstated my initial keep vote though, as it was a jerk instinct after looking at the article for so long. I'm probably an involved editor on this article though, so I will keep subsequent comments terse.
Utopes (
talk)
23:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- That doesn't cut it as a cogent argument. It is not realistic and I think that type of argument is prohibited or already well know as an Afd argument. There is large external reporting agencies to the country that are reporting about what happening in country, on a regular basis, as is does in every other country in the world. There is also local news networks that always exist. Zimbabwe is no different. The essentials state is that he jobbing muscician that is fairly well known in the country but no sufficiently ambitious to make it anywhere else in the world, its all local reports, so by definition he is non-notable. What about the extensive coverage that is already there. If he was trying to make it as an real musician, he would show up in social media in some some part. The big social media and music networks are no less valid in Zimbabwe as they are in anywhere else. Take a look at this for broadband speeds in the country:
[3]
[4]. I think more folk is needed.
scope_creep
Talk
23:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- scope_creep greetings from Zimbabwe once again.I understand your point of view but i would like to show you something that you may not be seeing.Its not that artists from Zimbabwe like the subject are too reluctant or not ambitious but its because of the system and the media here. Take a look at the producer Brian Soko he is a very known producer across borders (ambitious artist) who won a grammy,His well known production Drunk In Love by Beyonce is one of the famous hits ,but he is from Zimbabwe look at the coverage he got ,look at the references used. News Agencies do report in Zimbabwe but they only or should i say mainly focus on politics ,i never seen them reporting about artists ,with the exception of the legend Oliver Mtukudzi who was given a National Hero status.If we only wanted international media like CNN or Newyork times ,all Zimbabweans wouldn't have Wikipedia ,Please may i show you the following Zimbabwean celebrities articles and you might see that the Diego Tryno article is well referenced Check: 1 Alick Macheso 2 Tocky Vibes 3 Charles Manyuchi 4 Shinsoman 5 Shingisai Suluma 6 Carol Mujokoro 7 Paul Matavire 8 kikky Badass 9 Maskiri 10 Adrian Allen .Its not a mistake that if you check the sources ,they are the same sources in almost all articles Pindula being the most dominant,followed by Newsday and Nehandaradio,i was told pindula is an enclopedia so i removed it but i stretched out the fact that only notable artist in Zimbabwe has pindula ,anyway thats not the point.The point is most of these articles got the same sources or newssites and also that's why you see that the articles are suspected to have undisclosed payments but to me that's not the case, the thing is if you decide to work on an article on a Zimbabwean celebrity you dig deeper to find sources that are reliable and that too much effort will make you seem like you have a connection with the subject but the truth of the matter is if no one puts an effort then we won't be having Wikipedia for Zimbabweans. Lastly If you spared few minutes of your time to check the above highlighted articles you will see that Diego Tryno is hardly the only artist who got regional coverage from newspapers and magazines that are not in Zimbabwe this includes Regional Christian Magazine , Nigerian magazine , Ghana news publication ,supported by the international articles i highlighted at the top of this discussion ,you can see he is getting that coverage beyond borders. The subject might not be very famous world wide now but i believe with the sources on the whole article he does pass WP:GNG , WP:SIGCOV and WP:MUSICBIO criteria 1 and 11 since we mainly focus on what we have rather than what we know. You once said it qualifies WP:HEY and i'm still yet to improve the article ,if its kept and comes mid january and there is nothing new about the subject on news ,i will personally nominate it for deletion because it has given me a headache lol ,Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 09:26, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- That doesn't cut it as a cogent argument. It is not realistic and I think that type of argument is prohibited or already well know as an Afd argument. There is large external reporting agencies to the country that are reporting about what happening in country, on a regular basis, as is does in every other country in the world. There is also local news networks that always exist. Zimbabwe is no different. The essentials state is that he jobbing muscician that is fairly well known in the country but no sufficiently ambitious to make it anywhere else in the world, its all local reports, so by definition he is non-notable. What about the extensive coverage that is already there. If he was trying to make it as an real musician, he would show up in social media in some some part. The big social media and music networks are no less valid in Zimbabwe as they are in anywhere else. Take a look at this for broadband speeds in the country:
[3]
[4]. I think more folk is needed.
scope_creep
Talk
23:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Alright. Here is the rationale that I'm coming from. It is true that the subject does not meet the typical notability requirements to have an article. None of his songs have debuted on the Zimbabwean top charts, he did not perform on a record label, etc. This was the first thing that I noticed when I read the draft, and I declined it for this very reason. Most of the sources used were not reliable, independent sources. However, after I turned my back to the case, the author reached out to me and requested my reconsideration. After politely elaborating my reasoning back, it appeared that there were sources that were verifiable, including
[1] and
[2]. Now, I did come by these sources in my
WP:BEFORE, and was convinced that they weren't large enough or just gossip articles, so they couldn't be used to demonstrate notability. However, I don't live in Zimbabwe; apparently, this is just what news is in the country. That's when I realized that the standards of accuracy differ across country borders, something that I didn't understand before. Large media organizations such as CNN doesn't have heavy operations in countries with lacking economies. Because of this, consistent coverage from large media organizations simply does not exist, and the locals have to rely on smaller publications that don't encompass large regions. With this new light shed from the author, I took a new look at the article and... a lot of the sources were still not reliable. However, there were some magazines that I above linked that have limited regional span, but are apparently award-winning for these regions. Because of that, I was willing to grant these sources the verifiability required and gave it a weak pass. I may have overstated my initial keep vote though, as it was a jerk instinct after looking at the article for so long. I'm probably an involved editor on this article though, so I will keep subsequent comments terse.
Utopes (
talk)
23:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Apologies, there was an edit conflict. I do plan on supporting my claim, I just wanted to post a link to the discussion in the voting comment (I promise I'm not a rookie).
Utopes (
talk)
22:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hi @
Utopes: The usual practice is to present the evidence on here. I think it would be discounted by the closing admin if you don't. I had a look on your talk page but couldn't see nowt.
scope_creep
Talk
22:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Move to draft. That will give the article six months to see the implementation of proposed improvements. If further developments materialize that solidify the notability of the subject in that time, it can be submitted for restoration to mainspace through the usual process. BD2412 T 23:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- I think that is probably the best outcome.
scope_creep
Talk
00:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412,Greetings to you,improving the article can be done while the article stands,all the sources in the article shows the subject is notable ,i however suspect that the grounds for this nomination is
WP:SBEXTERNAL ,
Wikipedia:Systemic bias ,
WP:BIAS ,
WP:WORLDVIEW Which is rather a documented problem on BLP articles so dealing with these articles needs us to be very neutral, i will give you sources as per
WP:THREE ,please take a look at them without judging the location
[5]
[6]
[7] ,I must say looking for only three sources is hectic but i wanted you to check the pattern ,1 talked about his release. 2 talked about his genre shift and previous en devours, 3 A follow up on his failed album release which was published before by other publications meaning a repetition by major publications
Harare Times ,this must show us without
WP:BIAS that the subject is notable ,i would love to hear your own reasons if the sources in the article are not worth it ,still learning so don't hesitate to say anything ,Thank you
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
00:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- What, storifynews? newsday.co.zw? blownaija.com? I don't know that any of these are noteworthy or reliable sources.
BD2412
T
01:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- So far I have not see anything that proves that subject is notable and passes
WP:MUSICBIO. No.7 may fit, but fails
WP:V as it is impossible to verify. Where is band members lists, album names, tours. It's all missing. There is fairly extensive coverage, but at least two of the entries suggested above looks to be promotional as they displaying the singer's image, which shows up in several sources. That is indicative of paid promotion. So far I've not heard a single song that rapper has released. It is impossible to confirm he is a rapper.
scope_creep
Talk
02:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412 ,that does bring back the issue of
WP:Global and
WP:SBEXTERNAL which in between states that some sources are not used even if they are reliable because most editors prefer BBC or something similar.However i have seen some articles with less than 4 sources and i'm thinking out of all 16 sources + external + the New Hararetimes source i just found and showed you minus the 3 that you mentioned you might find you will be left with 12 lol and that's still enough for
WP:GNG,but maybe if you google the publications solo without the subject you will be surprised they are actually very reliable ,for instance Newsday is actually A government owned paper ,its owned by Zimpapers which is now owned by the Zimbabwean Government.Lets not ignore the fact that you know more about your location than i do and vise-versa ,its not me just saying it ,its well detailed on
WP:WORLDVIEW ,repeating it might seem unnecessary but i just want to make sure you read it and consider it when making these decisions Sir. Thank you for bringing out those sources though ,shows you actually spared your time and went through the article
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
02:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- scope_creep , I'm still doubting your judgement Sir because reading just one source will probably show you this is a solo artist and i haven't seen a Lilwayne or Eminem with a band ,i don't intend to attack you if it sounded like that.Lazarus(Age vo1) is the album i found on google and other sources ,also on Music Brainz the music enclopedia [8] ,followed by the said failed album Stories (Age vol2).I haven't found anything about tours except him cancelling a christmas tour Koenzagh. As for the image ,when you go to his instagram he has 1 post .twitter ,no image post and the only images you find are on google and my own general thinking tells me unless he uploads more images whoever who writes an article about him will use the same image that he or she finds on google and that only proves that he is independent from the publications, if the publications had different images of him it will prove that he is supplying the images since if the images are not online the only source to get the images would be from him and the radio stations library. i don't know why the subject is not active on social media but it doesn't take away the fact that he has coverage and coverage implies notability. Georgiamarlins ( talk) 03:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412 ,that does bring back the issue of
WP:Global and
WP:SBEXTERNAL which in between states that some sources are not used even if they are reliable because most editors prefer BBC or something similar.However i have seen some articles with less than 4 sources and i'm thinking out of all 16 sources + external + the New Hararetimes source i just found and showed you minus the 3 that you mentioned you might find you will be left with 12 lol and that's still enough for
WP:GNG,but maybe if you google the publications solo without the subject you will be surprised they are actually very reliable ,for instance Newsday is actually A government owned paper ,its owned by Zimpapers which is now owned by the Zimbabwean Government.Lets not ignore the fact that you know more about your location than i do and vise-versa ,its not me just saying it ,its well detailed on
WP:WORLDVIEW ,repeating it might seem unnecessary but i just want to make sure you read it and consider it when making these decisions Sir. Thank you for bringing out those sources though ,shows you actually spared your time and went through the article
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
02:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- So far I have not see anything that proves that subject is notable and passes
WP:MUSICBIO. No.7 may fit, but fails
WP:V as it is impossible to verify. Where is band members lists, album names, tours. It's all missing. There is fairly extensive coverage, but at least two of the entries suggested above looks to be promotional as they displaying the singer's image, which shows up in several sources. That is indicative of paid promotion. So far I've not heard a single song that rapper has released. It is impossible to confirm he is a rapper.
scope_creep
Talk
02:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- What, storifynews? newsday.co.zw? blownaija.com? I don't know that any of these are noteworthy or reliable sources.
BD2412
T
01:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412,Greetings to you,improving the article can be done while the article stands,all the sources in the article shows the subject is notable ,i however suspect that the grounds for this nomination is
WP:SBEXTERNAL ,
Wikipedia:Systemic bias ,
WP:BIAS ,
WP:WORLDVIEW Which is rather a documented problem on BLP articles so dealing with these articles needs us to be very neutral, i will give you sources as per
WP:THREE ,please take a look at them without judging the location
[5]
[6]
[7] ,I must say looking for only three sources is hectic but i wanted you to check the pattern ,1 talked about his release. 2 talked about his genre shift and previous en devours, 3 A follow up on his failed album release which was published before by other publications meaning a repetition by major publications
Harare Times ,this must show us without
WP:BIAS that the subject is notable ,i would love to hear your own reasons if the sources in the article are not worth it ,still learning so don't hesitate to say anything ,Thank you
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
00:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- I think that is probably the best outcome.
scope_creep
Talk
00:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Edited the article ,re arranged it and changed layout ,added new information from the available sources ,and added new information from new sources as per WP:HEY .Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 11:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Views are split between keeping as is or moving to draft space. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:14, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Diego Tryno ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:MUSICBIO for Non-notable rapper. Some coverage as possible celebratory but not a musician. No fans, no plays, no social media. scope_creep Talk 10:05, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 10:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Zimbabwe-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 10:06, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Greetings to you from Zimbabwe ,to my knowledge we don't judge notability of musicians by plays ,social media because if we did that everyone who can manipulate numbers would have a Wikipedia.We however judge by Notability which includes what independent sources say and as the creater of this article i used This criteria for this articlie
- 1 .Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1]
- 11 .Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network
- To start with 1 , there is much information from blogs and other sites for the subject but with the help of @ Utopes: who declined the article first and helped me find better sources i was left with sources from only top news publications in Zimbabwe .That includes Bulawayo24 , Newsguard , Newsday , Oyosnews , Nehanda Radio .And i believe only notable musicians could have articles about them and even follow ups on the albums they didn't release.
- You can also see international News publications talking about this artist and if you take time to go through the comments of the news articles you will see that the subject has 'fans' maybe across Zimbabwe . Storifynews, Globenews24, Koenzagh. To end with 11 ,most radio charts in Zimbabwe are constantly updated but you can see journalist in most news articles mentioning that he is toping the radio charts , Recheck NehandaRadio and on this UK radio station his track Mama is in the top 10 Yami radio
- The other references are magazines but for now ,i sticked with newspapers
- To me he qualify's on those 2 categories ,however I'm still learning ,i will be happy to learn why he doesn't qualify and make myself a better editor ,thank you.
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
13:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- That's a goodly amount of coverage. I think it probably enough for
WP:SIGCOV and
WP:HEY if the article is updated but I can't find any music to conform he is a musician. I'll wait to see what other folk say.
scope_creep
Talk
21:40, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment @ Scope creep: ,greetings from Zimbabwe once again ,firstly thank you for acknowledging that he does qualify for something ,i was starting to think maybe everything i was learning ,i was learning it wrong haha but now i'm feeling better.As for music ,i ran a google check and i clicked songs and i saw you will find a list of songs ,his music is on plartforms like apple music ,amazon ,spotify etc which i believe are for selling music so its probably not easy to listen to it unless you are subscribed to the plartforms ,however a Youtube search will give you his music video Mabvuta Video which has 14k+ views and you will be surprised most celebrities in Zimbabwe don't get that much views because music in Zimbabwe is highly circulated in the streets and radios ,online seems like a last option for the artists but that's a discussion for another day,so yeah that's his music for you. The article was probably less than 24hrs old before you nominated it for deletion ,which i think maybe if you had given me or anyone else a chance of WP:BEFORE which states somewhere that a new article should be given time to be developed ,i'm sure it will be looking better as time goes since the subject is a living person.So anyway while we wait for other folks ,i would like to know how i can make it better ,should i put inline citations to the music?I think the free one is on youtube but we removed youtube references before the other reviewers said youtube shouldn't be used as a source ,i'm still learning please don't hesitate to walk with me through this ,Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 07:26, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- 14k+ plays isn't sufficient. 250k followers is the number of followers needed to become notable via social media. There is no plays nor fans on Youtube, Spotify, Deezer, Soundcloud, Apple Music nor Amazon. Not a sausage.
scope_creep
Talk
13:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hello Once again @ Scope creep: ,not that i disagree but i would love to read that somewhere because so far i haven't came across the number of followers needed for someone to be notable, i'm still learning .I however have a problem of judging a musician by plays or views because that is not fans ,you and i know that numbers can be manipulated ,people are buying followers and views ,so its kinda debatable.To me what tells us someone has fans is the urge by Newspapers and Magazines to write something about that person (Because of sales) ,awards and radio rotation because we know for someone to be in the charts they are voted for. Also i think we should acknowledge that the artists from developing countries like Zimbabwe,Mozambique and Malawi in Africa are different from developed countries in Africa like Nigeria ,South Africa and Ghana ,since you took time to check plays maybe you can take a look on how the artists are different my only guess is because the developing countries don't use much internet as developed countries or something to do with resources but that just my own view .I chose to contribute for Africa because i'm African and i have noticed that many African celebrities especially from Southern Africa don't have Wikipedia despite being well known in their countries ,so i actually do my research on these things,so maybe that's why i see things differently. Lastly this is a question ,how many categories does someone has to qualify on to have a Wikipedia about them? to my knowledge someone has to qualify on at least one but i'm not sure if i read it right? .Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 18:29, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- 14k+ plays isn't sufficient. 250k followers is the number of followers needed to become notable via social media. There is no plays nor fans on Youtube, Spotify, Deezer, Soundcloud, Apple Music nor Amazon. Not a sausage.
scope_creep
Talk
13:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- That's a goodly amount of coverage. I think it probably enough for
WP:SIGCOV and
WP:HEY if the article is updated but I can't find any music to conform he is a musician. I'll wait to see what other folk say.
scope_creep
Talk
21:40, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Weak Keep. I'm just convinced that the subject passes criteria 1 of the WP:NMUSIC. I had a long and insightful conversation with the creator after I originally declined their draft, which can be found here. Utopes ( talk) 22:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hi @
Utopes: The usual practice is to present the evidence on here. I think it would be discounted by the closing admin if you don't. I had a look on your talk page but couldn't see nowt.
scope_creep
Talk
22:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Apologies, there was an edit conflict. I do plan on supporting my claim, I just wanted to post a link to the discussion in the voting comment (I promise I'm not a rookie).
Utopes (
talk)
22:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Alright. Here is the rationale that I'm coming from. It is true that the subject does not meet the typical notability requirements to have an article. None of his songs have debuted on the Zimbabwean top charts, he did not perform on a record label, etc. This was the first thing that I noticed when I read the draft, and I declined it for this very reason. Most of the sources used were not reliable, independent sources. However, after I turned my back to the case, the author reached out to me and requested my reconsideration. After politely elaborating my reasoning back, it appeared that there were sources that were verifiable, including
[1] and
[2]. Now, I did come by these sources in my
WP:BEFORE, and was convinced that they weren't large enough or just gossip articles, so they couldn't be used to demonstrate notability. However, I don't live in Zimbabwe; apparently, this is just what news is in the country. That's when I realized that the standards of accuracy differ across country borders, something that I didn't understand before. Large media organizations such as CNN doesn't have heavy operations in countries with lacking economies. Because of this, consistent coverage from large media organizations simply does not exist, and the locals have to rely on smaller publications that don't encompass large regions. With this new light shed from the author, I took a new look at the article and... a lot of the sources were still not reliable. However, there were some magazines that I above linked that have limited regional span, but are apparently award-winning for these regions. Because of that, I was willing to grant these sources the verifiability required and gave it a weak pass. I may have overstated my initial keep vote though, as it was a jerk instinct after looking at the article for so long. I'm probably an involved editor on this article though, so I will keep subsequent comments terse.
Utopes (
talk)
23:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- That doesn't cut it as a cogent argument. It is not realistic and I think that type of argument is prohibited or already well know as an Afd argument. There is large external reporting agencies to the country that are reporting about what happening in country, on a regular basis, as is does in every other country in the world. There is also local news networks that always exist. Zimbabwe is no different. The essentials state is that he jobbing muscician that is fairly well known in the country but no sufficiently ambitious to make it anywhere else in the world, its all local reports, so by definition he is non-notable. What about the extensive coverage that is already there. If he was trying to make it as an real musician, he would show up in social media in some some part. The big social media and music networks are no less valid in Zimbabwe as they are in anywhere else. Take a look at this for broadband speeds in the country:
[3]
[4]. I think more folk is needed.
scope_creep
Talk
23:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- scope_creep greetings from Zimbabwe once again.I understand your point of view but i would like to show you something that you may not be seeing.Its not that artists from Zimbabwe like the subject are too reluctant or not ambitious but its because of the system and the media here. Take a look at the producer Brian Soko he is a very known producer across borders (ambitious artist) who won a grammy,His well known production Drunk In Love by Beyonce is one of the famous hits ,but he is from Zimbabwe look at the coverage he got ,look at the references used. News Agencies do report in Zimbabwe but they only or should i say mainly focus on politics ,i never seen them reporting about artists ,with the exception of the legend Oliver Mtukudzi who was given a National Hero status.If we only wanted international media like CNN or Newyork times ,all Zimbabweans wouldn't have Wikipedia ,Please may i show you the following Zimbabwean celebrities articles and you might see that the Diego Tryno article is well referenced Check: 1 Alick Macheso 2 Tocky Vibes 3 Charles Manyuchi 4 Shinsoman 5 Shingisai Suluma 6 Carol Mujokoro 7 Paul Matavire 8 kikky Badass 9 Maskiri 10 Adrian Allen .Its not a mistake that if you check the sources ,they are the same sources in almost all articles Pindula being the most dominant,followed by Newsday and Nehandaradio,i was told pindula is an enclopedia so i removed it but i stretched out the fact that only notable artist in Zimbabwe has pindula ,anyway thats not the point.The point is most of these articles got the same sources or newssites and also that's why you see that the articles are suspected to have undisclosed payments but to me that's not the case, the thing is if you decide to work on an article on a Zimbabwean celebrity you dig deeper to find sources that are reliable and that too much effort will make you seem like you have a connection with the subject but the truth of the matter is if no one puts an effort then we won't be having Wikipedia for Zimbabweans. Lastly If you spared few minutes of your time to check the above highlighted articles you will see that Diego Tryno is hardly the only artist who got regional coverage from newspapers and magazines that are not in Zimbabwe this includes Regional Christian Magazine , Nigerian magazine , Ghana news publication ,supported by the international articles i highlighted at the top of this discussion ,you can see he is getting that coverage beyond borders. The subject might not be very famous world wide now but i believe with the sources on the whole article he does pass WP:GNG , WP:SIGCOV and WP:MUSICBIO criteria 1 and 11 since we mainly focus on what we have rather than what we know. You once said it qualifies WP:HEY and i'm still yet to improve the article ,if its kept and comes mid january and there is nothing new about the subject on news ,i will personally nominate it for deletion because it has given me a headache lol ,Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 09:26, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- That doesn't cut it as a cogent argument. It is not realistic and I think that type of argument is prohibited or already well know as an Afd argument. There is large external reporting agencies to the country that are reporting about what happening in country, on a regular basis, as is does in every other country in the world. There is also local news networks that always exist. Zimbabwe is no different. The essentials state is that he jobbing muscician that is fairly well known in the country but no sufficiently ambitious to make it anywhere else in the world, its all local reports, so by definition he is non-notable. What about the extensive coverage that is already there. If he was trying to make it as an real musician, he would show up in social media in some some part. The big social media and music networks are no less valid in Zimbabwe as they are in anywhere else. Take a look at this for broadband speeds in the country:
[3]
[4]. I think more folk is needed.
scope_creep
Talk
23:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Alright. Here is the rationale that I'm coming from. It is true that the subject does not meet the typical notability requirements to have an article. None of his songs have debuted on the Zimbabwean top charts, he did not perform on a record label, etc. This was the first thing that I noticed when I read the draft, and I declined it for this very reason. Most of the sources used were not reliable, independent sources. However, after I turned my back to the case, the author reached out to me and requested my reconsideration. After politely elaborating my reasoning back, it appeared that there were sources that were verifiable, including
[1] and
[2]. Now, I did come by these sources in my
WP:BEFORE, and was convinced that they weren't large enough or just gossip articles, so they couldn't be used to demonstrate notability. However, I don't live in Zimbabwe; apparently, this is just what news is in the country. That's when I realized that the standards of accuracy differ across country borders, something that I didn't understand before. Large media organizations such as CNN doesn't have heavy operations in countries with lacking economies. Because of this, consistent coverage from large media organizations simply does not exist, and the locals have to rely on smaller publications that don't encompass large regions. With this new light shed from the author, I took a new look at the article and... a lot of the sources were still not reliable. However, there were some magazines that I above linked that have limited regional span, but are apparently award-winning for these regions. Because of that, I was willing to grant these sources the verifiability required and gave it a weak pass. I may have overstated my initial keep vote though, as it was a jerk instinct after looking at the article for so long. I'm probably an involved editor on this article though, so I will keep subsequent comments terse.
Utopes (
talk)
23:22, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Apologies, there was an edit conflict. I do plan on supporting my claim, I just wanted to post a link to the discussion in the voting comment (I promise I'm not a rookie).
Utopes (
talk)
22:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hi @
Utopes: The usual practice is to present the evidence on here. I think it would be discounted by the closing admin if you don't. I had a look on your talk page but couldn't see nowt.
scope_creep
Talk
22:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Move to draft. That will give the article six months to see the implementation of proposed improvements. If further developments materialize that solidify the notability of the subject in that time, it can be submitted for restoration to mainspace through the usual process. BD2412 T 23:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- I think that is probably the best outcome.
scope_creep
Talk
00:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412,Greetings to you,improving the article can be done while the article stands,all the sources in the article shows the subject is notable ,i however suspect that the grounds for this nomination is
WP:SBEXTERNAL ,
Wikipedia:Systemic bias ,
WP:BIAS ,
WP:WORLDVIEW Which is rather a documented problem on BLP articles so dealing with these articles needs us to be very neutral, i will give you sources as per
WP:THREE ,please take a look at them without judging the location
[5]
[6]
[7] ,I must say looking for only three sources is hectic but i wanted you to check the pattern ,1 talked about his release. 2 talked about his genre shift and previous en devours, 3 A follow up on his failed album release which was published before by other publications meaning a repetition by major publications
Harare Times ,this must show us without
WP:BIAS that the subject is notable ,i would love to hear your own reasons if the sources in the article are not worth it ,still learning so don't hesitate to say anything ,Thank you
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
00:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- What, storifynews? newsday.co.zw? blownaija.com? I don't know that any of these are noteworthy or reliable sources.
BD2412
T
01:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- So far I have not see anything that proves that subject is notable and passes
WP:MUSICBIO. No.7 may fit, but fails
WP:V as it is impossible to verify. Where is band members lists, album names, tours. It's all missing. There is fairly extensive coverage, but at least two of the entries suggested above looks to be promotional as they displaying the singer's image, which shows up in several sources. That is indicative of paid promotion. So far I've not heard a single song that rapper has released. It is impossible to confirm he is a rapper.
scope_creep
Talk
02:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412 ,that does bring back the issue of
WP:Global and
WP:SBEXTERNAL which in between states that some sources are not used even if they are reliable because most editors prefer BBC or something similar.However i have seen some articles with less than 4 sources and i'm thinking out of all 16 sources + external + the New Hararetimes source i just found and showed you minus the 3 that you mentioned you might find you will be left with 12 lol and that's still enough for
WP:GNG,but maybe if you google the publications solo without the subject you will be surprised they are actually very reliable ,for instance Newsday is actually A government owned paper ,its owned by Zimpapers which is now owned by the Zimbabwean Government.Lets not ignore the fact that you know more about your location than i do and vise-versa ,its not me just saying it ,its well detailed on
WP:WORLDVIEW ,repeating it might seem unnecessary but i just want to make sure you read it and consider it when making these decisions Sir. Thank you for bringing out those sources though ,shows you actually spared your time and went through the article
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
02:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- scope_creep , I'm still doubting your judgement Sir because reading just one source will probably show you this is a solo artist and i haven't seen a Lilwayne or Eminem with a band ,i don't intend to attack you if it sounded like that.Lazarus(Age vo1) is the album i found on google and other sources ,also on Music Brainz the music enclopedia [8] ,followed by the said failed album Stories (Age vol2).I haven't found anything about tours except him cancelling a christmas tour Koenzagh. As for the image ,when you go to his instagram he has 1 post .twitter ,no image post and the only images you find are on google and my own general thinking tells me unless he uploads more images whoever who writes an article about him will use the same image that he or she finds on google and that only proves that he is independent from the publications, if the publications had different images of him it will prove that he is supplying the images since if the images are not online the only source to get the images would be from him and the radio stations library. i don't know why the subject is not active on social media but it doesn't take away the fact that he has coverage and coverage implies notability. Georgiamarlins ( talk) 03:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412 ,that does bring back the issue of
WP:Global and
WP:SBEXTERNAL which in between states that some sources are not used even if they are reliable because most editors prefer BBC or something similar.However i have seen some articles with less than 4 sources and i'm thinking out of all 16 sources + external + the New Hararetimes source i just found and showed you minus the 3 that you mentioned you might find you will be left with 12 lol and that's still enough for
WP:GNG,but maybe if you google the publications solo without the subject you will be surprised they are actually very reliable ,for instance Newsday is actually A government owned paper ,its owned by Zimpapers which is now owned by the Zimbabwean Government.Lets not ignore the fact that you know more about your location than i do and vise-versa ,its not me just saying it ,its well detailed on
WP:WORLDVIEW ,repeating it might seem unnecessary but i just want to make sure you read it and consider it when making these decisions Sir. Thank you for bringing out those sources though ,shows you actually spared your time and went through the article
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
02:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- So far I have not see anything that proves that subject is notable and passes
WP:MUSICBIO. No.7 may fit, but fails
WP:V as it is impossible to verify. Where is band members lists, album names, tours. It's all missing. There is fairly extensive coverage, but at least two of the entries suggested above looks to be promotional as they displaying the singer's image, which shows up in several sources. That is indicative of paid promotion. So far I've not heard a single song that rapper has released. It is impossible to confirm he is a rapper.
scope_creep
Talk
02:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- What, storifynews? newsday.co.zw? blownaija.com? I don't know that any of these are noteworthy or reliable sources.
BD2412
T
01:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
-
BD2412,Greetings to you,improving the article can be done while the article stands,all the sources in the article shows the subject is notable ,i however suspect that the grounds for this nomination is
WP:SBEXTERNAL ,
Wikipedia:Systemic bias ,
WP:BIAS ,
WP:WORLDVIEW Which is rather a documented problem on BLP articles so dealing with these articles needs us to be very neutral, i will give you sources as per
WP:THREE ,please take a look at them without judging the location
[5]
[6]
[7] ,I must say looking for only three sources is hectic but i wanted you to check the pattern ,1 talked about his release. 2 talked about his genre shift and previous en devours, 3 A follow up on his failed album release which was published before by other publications meaning a repetition by major publications
Harare Times ,this must show us without
WP:BIAS that the subject is notable ,i would love to hear your own reasons if the sources in the article are not worth it ,still learning so don't hesitate to say anything ,Thank you
Georgiamarlins (
talk)
00:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- I think that is probably the best outcome.
scope_creep
Talk
00:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Edited the article ,re arranged it and changed layout ,added new information from the available sources ,and added new information from new sources as per WP:HEY .Thank you Georgiamarlins ( talk) 11:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.