- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Fosston, Minnesota#History. Participants are invited to selectively merge verifiable content to the new location. Modussiccandi ( talk) 08:34, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Cordwood Pete
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- Cordwood Pete ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fakelore hoax with all sources stemming from a single common web article. Google search gives scant results, seems to be not remotely notable. Toogs ( talk) 11:24, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. Negligible sourcing. Xxanthippe ( talk) 02:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC).
Folklore or Fakelore by its very definition, is substantially untrue. Make sure you cancel all the characters on this Wikipedia page wile you're at it: /info/en/?search=Tall_tale — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray.lowry ( talk • contribs) 13:52, February 3, 2022 (UTC)
- Delete "Folklore" is a story that has been passed down, is told in many cases, and has wide use. The factual reality of the story is not what matters. Some stories are in fact true, but most are fiction. We have articles on fiction. That is not the issue. Our articles on fiction cover things that have recieved coverage in reliable sources. So in the case of folklore, it is a story widely shared in various formats. True, most of the forms folklore is shared are not directly documentable, it is parents telling stories to children, teachers repeating stories, cub scout leaders telling stories, etc. However there are ways to document that the story does exist. We lack the documents here to show that this is a widely told of character who is widely spoken about. So there is no evidence that this is a generally accepted person in the existing folklore. So we should delete the article, unless someone can find sources that shows that this is an existing character in the folklore.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
15:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- To add to this, I called this out as a hoax because the article confusingly presents itself as genuine folklore. If it were to remain, it would need to be extensively rewritten to clarify that Cordwood Pete is a relatively recent invention with a specific source. Regardless, I'm not advocating the article be deleted by virtue of fakelore, but rather (as above) general notability. Toogs ( talk) 21:43, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Preliminary Keep or Merge to, I guess,
Tall tale#United States. About notability: The story (Invented by that homepage? Can we judge from anything besides circumstantial evidence?) is taken up in detail in the travel guides by Eric Dregni
[1]/
[2]. There is a short description of the house in
Minnesota Open House, and more about the figure himself in Minnesota Curiosities: Quirky Characters, Roadside Oddities. Unfortunately I don't get a proper preview, but Google shows me the start of the story, so it does not seem insignificant.
This scholarly source (published in the Russian journal "Philological Class") does not give any details, but it does call Cordwood Pete a "folklore character". Is there a reason why the fact that the figure made it into the travel guides (no matter his origin) should not count towards notability?
Daranios (
talk)
08:31, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Good points about notability, but I would caution against including Cordwood Pete in any list that implies genuine folklore. The
obituary of Fosston mayor Arvid Clementson says:
This, the dubious claim of a "time capsule" found in 2001, and the fact that no older references exist leads me to believe that Cordwood Pete is purely an invention of the 21st century. I'm concerned these secondary sources (some of which seem rather tongue-in-cheek) are, knowingly or not, perpetuating a hoax. It feels wrong for Wikipedia to do the same. I think if the article remains, its first lines should reflect the information in the above blockquote. Toogs ( talk) 20:00, 4 February 2022 (UTC)In his tireless effort to promote Fosston, he created the "Cordwood Pete" legend, which has generated a statewide interest for tourism ... Proceeds from his Cordwood Pete activities were designed to support local tourism activities including Fosston's Annual Heritage Days.
- @ Toogs: Now that obituary is a good find! Even if editorial control of that site is not clear to me, it is a source that makes clear that the character is a recent invention, without us as Wikipedia editors having to put that together somehow. So I would still like to keep the article based on the secondary sources found, even if they are not very auspicious, about this "legend, which has generated a statewide interest for tourism". But I wholeheartedly agree to a rephrasing of the introductory part along the lines you've suggested. Daranios ( talk) 20:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Good points about notability, but I would caution against including Cordwood Pete in any list that implies genuine folklore. The
obituary of Fosston mayor Arvid Clementson says:
- Weak keep per Daranios. This needs careful rewrite as it may be a hoax that generated secondary coverage sufficient to become notable. Looking at the sources, Midwest Marvels is a 2006 touristy book, but published by a reliable institution ( University of Minnesota Press) and the author is an academic ( Eric Dregni). It talks about the time capsule and such. Was Dregni duped? It's not like his article adheres to high academic standards, but it is not for us to say he was duped or not, I think. I have trouble accessing other sources (snippet view/copyright), but Dregni's treatment suggests some notability. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Okay folks, I am the culprit who created this page. If you read the 2010 version [ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cordwood_Pete&diff=374808000&oldid=374761266 ] it has five citations, including the obituary referenced above (although the site it connected to is now a paid-search site). It began with the sentence "Cordwood Pete is a tall-tale character.." and currently reads "Cordwood Pete is a fictional character..." I also inserted the generic pictures of lumberjacks. This all began when I visited Fosston and stopped to use the bathroom at the museum/gift shop the locals claim was Cordwood Pete's home. I looked up the name on my phone (literally while sitting on the toilet), was amused by the several references I found, and created the page when I returned home. Excuse the heck out of me for perpetuating the myth created by residents of some small town in Minnesota. It was not my intent to create a hoax. If you google "Cordwood Pete" several dozen sites pop up, about half of which obtained their info directly from the Wikipedia page. That says something about the reach of Wikipedia. But Pete is also mentioned in several travel books, to include one in German, and one academic tract in Russian about modern mythology. My feelings will not be hurt if you delete the page. I would rewrite it, and make it acceptable to all of you, but though once very active in Wikipedia page creation, I not longer know how to really do it. As you can see, I no longer even know who to even sign off correctly. Have a good day. And thank you for your participation in Wikipedia, which as a world-wide treasure. /info/en/?search=User:Ray.lowry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray.lowry ( talk • contribs) 19:12, February 5, 2022 (UTC)
- Ray.lowry, You can refresh yourself on how to sign at WP:SIGN :) Can you join the discussion at Talk:Cordwood Pete? I am concerned about the accuracy of captions. In particular, how can we have a photo of the subject if he is a character from fiction? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:38, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:55, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Fosston, Minnesota#History, where he is already mentioned, and perhaps expand on that a bit, making clear that he's a legend invented for touristic purposes. The sources mentioned above don't really support an article, but they can be used to flesh out this town's local history a bit. Sandstein 08:58, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Fosston, Minnesota#History per Sandstein. While that section could be expanded a bit with information from the sources listed above, I would not recommend an actual merger, as the only true secondary source being used in the current article is being used to cite the information on the time capsule, which, based on the evidence above regarding Cordwood Pete being a relatively recent invention, is highly dubious. Rorshacma ( talk) 16:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Interesting bit of local lore, could it be merged into the article about the town instead? Not sure it warrants an article on its own, but it could surely be noted as a paragraph in the town's article? Oaktree b ( talk) 21:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Fosston, Minnesota#History. Participants are invited to selectively merge verifiable content to the new location. Modussiccandi ( talk) 08:34, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Cordwood Pete
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Cordwood Pete ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fakelore hoax with all sources stemming from a single common web article. Google search gives scant results, seems to be not remotely notable. Toogs ( talk) 11:24, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. Negligible sourcing. Xxanthippe ( talk) 02:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC).
Folklore or Fakelore by its very definition, is substantially untrue. Make sure you cancel all the characters on this Wikipedia page wile you're at it: /info/en/?search=Tall_tale — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray.lowry ( talk • contribs) 13:52, February 3, 2022 (UTC)
- Delete "Folklore" is a story that has been passed down, is told in many cases, and has wide use. The factual reality of the story is not what matters. Some stories are in fact true, but most are fiction. We have articles on fiction. That is not the issue. Our articles on fiction cover things that have recieved coverage in reliable sources. So in the case of folklore, it is a story widely shared in various formats. True, most of the forms folklore is shared are not directly documentable, it is parents telling stories to children, teachers repeating stories, cub scout leaders telling stories, etc. However there are ways to document that the story does exist. We lack the documents here to show that this is a widely told of character who is widely spoken about. So there is no evidence that this is a generally accepted person in the existing folklore. So we should delete the article, unless someone can find sources that shows that this is an existing character in the folklore.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
15:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- To add to this, I called this out as a hoax because the article confusingly presents itself as genuine folklore. If it were to remain, it would need to be extensively rewritten to clarify that Cordwood Pete is a relatively recent invention with a specific source. Regardless, I'm not advocating the article be deleted by virtue of fakelore, but rather (as above) general notability. Toogs ( talk) 21:43, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Preliminary Keep or Merge to, I guess,
Tall tale#United States. About notability: The story (Invented by that homepage? Can we judge from anything besides circumstantial evidence?) is taken up in detail in the travel guides by Eric Dregni
[1]/
[2]. There is a short description of the house in
Minnesota Open House, and more about the figure himself in Minnesota Curiosities: Quirky Characters, Roadside Oddities. Unfortunately I don't get a proper preview, but Google shows me the start of the story, so it does not seem insignificant.
This scholarly source (published in the Russian journal "Philological Class") does not give any details, but it does call Cordwood Pete a "folklore character". Is there a reason why the fact that the figure made it into the travel guides (no matter his origin) should not count towards notability?
Daranios (
talk)
08:31, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Good points about notability, but I would caution against including Cordwood Pete in any list that implies genuine folklore. The
obituary of Fosston mayor Arvid Clementson says:
This, the dubious claim of a "time capsule" found in 2001, and the fact that no older references exist leads me to believe that Cordwood Pete is purely an invention of the 21st century. I'm concerned these secondary sources (some of which seem rather tongue-in-cheek) are, knowingly or not, perpetuating a hoax. It feels wrong for Wikipedia to do the same. I think if the article remains, its first lines should reflect the information in the above blockquote. Toogs ( talk) 20:00, 4 February 2022 (UTC)In his tireless effort to promote Fosston, he created the "Cordwood Pete" legend, which has generated a statewide interest for tourism ... Proceeds from his Cordwood Pete activities were designed to support local tourism activities including Fosston's Annual Heritage Days.
- @ Toogs: Now that obituary is a good find! Even if editorial control of that site is not clear to me, it is a source that makes clear that the character is a recent invention, without us as Wikipedia editors having to put that together somehow. So I would still like to keep the article based on the secondary sources found, even if they are not very auspicious, about this "legend, which has generated a statewide interest for tourism". But I wholeheartedly agree to a rephrasing of the introductory part along the lines you've suggested. Daranios ( talk) 20:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Good points about notability, but I would caution against including Cordwood Pete in any list that implies genuine folklore. The
obituary of Fosston mayor Arvid Clementson says:
- Weak keep per Daranios. This needs careful rewrite as it may be a hoax that generated secondary coverage sufficient to become notable. Looking at the sources, Midwest Marvels is a 2006 touristy book, but published by a reliable institution ( University of Minnesota Press) and the author is an academic ( Eric Dregni). It talks about the time capsule and such. Was Dregni duped? It's not like his article adheres to high academic standards, but it is not for us to say he was duped or not, I think. I have trouble accessing other sources (snippet view/copyright), but Dregni's treatment suggests some notability. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Okay folks, I am the culprit who created this page. If you read the 2010 version [ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cordwood_Pete&diff=374808000&oldid=374761266 ] it has five citations, including the obituary referenced above (although the site it connected to is now a paid-search site). It began with the sentence "Cordwood Pete is a tall-tale character.." and currently reads "Cordwood Pete is a fictional character..." I also inserted the generic pictures of lumberjacks. This all began when I visited Fosston and stopped to use the bathroom at the museum/gift shop the locals claim was Cordwood Pete's home. I looked up the name on my phone (literally while sitting on the toilet), was amused by the several references I found, and created the page when I returned home. Excuse the heck out of me for perpetuating the myth created by residents of some small town in Minnesota. It was not my intent to create a hoax. If you google "Cordwood Pete" several dozen sites pop up, about half of which obtained their info directly from the Wikipedia page. That says something about the reach of Wikipedia. But Pete is also mentioned in several travel books, to include one in German, and one academic tract in Russian about modern mythology. My feelings will not be hurt if you delete the page. I would rewrite it, and make it acceptable to all of you, but though once very active in Wikipedia page creation, I not longer know how to really do it. As you can see, I no longer even know who to even sign off correctly. Have a good day. And thank you for your participation in Wikipedia, which as a world-wide treasure. /info/en/?search=User:Ray.lowry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ray.lowry ( talk • contribs) 19:12, February 5, 2022 (UTC)
- Ray.lowry, You can refresh yourself on how to sign at WP:SIGN :) Can you join the discussion at Talk:Cordwood Pete? I am concerned about the accuracy of captions. In particular, how can we have a photo of the subject if he is a character from fiction? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:38, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:55, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Fosston, Minnesota#History, where he is already mentioned, and perhaps expand on that a bit, making clear that he's a legend invented for touristic purposes. The sources mentioned above don't really support an article, but they can be used to flesh out this town's local history a bit. Sandstein 08:58, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Fosston, Minnesota#History per Sandstein. While that section could be expanded a bit with information from the sources listed above, I would not recommend an actual merger, as the only true secondary source being used in the current article is being used to cite the information on the time capsule, which, based on the evidence above regarding Cordwood Pete being a relatively recent invention, is highly dubious. Rorshacma ( talk) 16:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Interesting bit of local lore, could it be merged into the article about the town instead? Not sure it warrants an article on its own, but it could surely be noted as a paragraph in the town's article? Oaktree b ( talk) 21:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.