The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. However, on the question of whether meeting the SNG can of themselves establish notability, a question that the AfD was asked to look at, there was no consensus. This is hardly a question that could be answered at a single AfD in any case.
I have a couple of comments about the conduct of this AfD. Firstly, the invitation to Masem to participate amounts to canvassing. Secondly, it was inappropriate to move a portion of the debate on to the talk page. That discussion was still relevant to the AfD debate and contained arguments for the closer including a call for speedy keep. Spinning Spark 11:09, 15 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Chalmers Tschappat (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)

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I can find nothing to substantiate that this person passes WP:ATHLETE. He played 2 NFL games in 1921, but apparently garnered no stats as I was not able to find any.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 18:11, 6 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 19:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 19:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 19:28, 7 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete (Note, was asked to participate due to past discussions). Notability guidelines are presumptions that a topic is notable to allow time for sources to be found and/or develop. Here we have a player, long since deceased, with several decades of time for sources to be developed. While NGRIDIRON is met on the basis of playing a few games, there's clearly nothing else (I've done a cursory search, I will AGF that ArcAngel has done a deeper source evaluation, and in either case, would happy to be proven wrong if someone can reveal more detailed sourcing) that we can use to build the article. This is where understanding why notability (either GNG or the SNGs) is a presumption; we're clearly wrong that this person was notable. As such, deletion in this type of case is reasonable. This type of case (deleting an article that otherwise meets an SNG) should be exceptionable but allowable in how the GNG/SNG/notability presumptions work together. -- MASEM ( t) 20:39, 7 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep. He passes WP:NGRIDIRON having played in the NFL (it was called the APFA at the time, but renamed the NFL the next year). Most of the regional newspapers that would have covered the 1921 NFL season are hidden behind pay walls or not on-line, making it very difficult to dig out the source materials without spending a lot of money. This is why the presumption of notability exists for NFL players. A little bit of digging did show that he not only played pro football for the Triangles, he was also an assistant coach in 1919 in the Ohio League, the regional pro league that gave birth to the NFL in 1920. Cbl62 ( talk) 13:12, 10 August 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Getting the sources will be some work, but verifying that there are sources out there should not be. Also note that the presumption of notability applies to all topics whether we're talking the GNG or NSPORTS or the like; if sources cannot easily be located, that probably means the presumption was wrong. -- MASEM ( t) 13:55, 11 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Keep nominator admits subject played professionally in what became the NFL. That's widely considered reason enough to keep.--11:06, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Note. The above "keep" vote was cast by User:Paulmcdonald. His more detailed analysis is contained in comments that ArcAngel has moved to the Talk page. Cbl62 ( talk) 22:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Confirmed.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 01:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep as a WP:NGRIDIRON pass per Cbl62's reasoning and arguments. Ejgreen77 ( talk) 14:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment First, no one is ever probably going to look for this guy. This discussion is the only time that people will ever care about him. Also, if all sports people were removed from Wikipedia no one would really care. In 200 years who is going to care about Peyton Manning. People don't even remember hall of famers nowadays. Athletes are just relevant to their time period, once all the people that watched them are gone, no one else will have a reason to care. They're just playing a game anyway. How significant is that. Someone has to play it. There always has to be a League MVP no matter what. There won't always be a great inventor or something like that though. WikiOriginal-9 ( talk) 22:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Can you guys keep this discussion going on for eternity. It's great entertainment. We could use some more participants to add to the fun though. WikiOriginal-9 ( talk) 22:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

@ WikiOriginal-9: You're the one who created the Tschappat article and started this whole ball rolling. Are you saying that you believe the topic is irrelevant and should be deleted? Please clarify. Cbl62 ( talk) 22:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Dagnabbit I've been caught. Seriously tho, If this actually does get deleted, there are thousands of articles like it. We should be consistent. Also, if the page started in the shape that is was in now, I don't think it would have ever been nominated. WikiOriginal-9 ( talk) 22:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Didn't answer the question. Cbl62 ( talk) 22:49, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

It shouldn't be deleted unless people are going to be consistent and deleted a bunch of other articles. Why was this article singled out. WikiOriginal-9 ( talk) 22:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument. -- MASEM ( t) 23:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Quite possibly because it's entirely possible that no single WP editor is aware that other articles of the same quality exist, but consider the version that was nominated. There was nothing that I could see that asserted the notability of this player, and what was there only passed WP:V. A couple of days had passed with no edits on it. I wonder - was I a bit hasty in this nomination?   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 23:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Well if you didn't nominate it would probably still be a stub ha. WikiOriginal-9 ( talk) 23:19, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

Please note some side discussions on issues of WP:N, WP:NGRIDIRON, and other aspected moved to talk page. -- MASEM ( t) 22:01, 12 August 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete fails WP:GNG, never been a fan of these one or two game players who played such long ago that sources (if any) no longer exists. Current sources doesn't indicate any notability nor any information present on the article. WP:GNG trumps WP:ATHLETE. Secret ^account 18:11, 14 August 2014 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.