- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Specific sources were surfaced to establish notability for this particular camp. RL0919 ( talk) 09:05, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Camp Tel Noar
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Camp Tel Noar ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A WP:BEFORE search has only led to inadequate sources that are mentions or biographies of attendants. Fails WP:BASIC. The previous rationales for the other deletions were over 13 years ago and was no consensus. AmericanAir88( talk) 22:18, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- This is part of a campaign covering at least 5 summer camps currently. Please see:
- -- Doncram ( talk) 21:21, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Hampshire-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:27, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to say keep on this because I don't see why a good article is impossible. At the moment it ranges from so-so to embarrassing ("The area around the Flagpole is used for lineup and raising the flags." no kidding!).
Zero
talk
10:13, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Do you have any rationale for keeping besides your opinion? AmericanAir88( talk) 18:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete A search of books and newspaper archives reveals only passing mentions and event listings. The best I could find was [1] and [2], which isn't enough to satisfy WP:ORG.---- Pontificalibus 08:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per decisions in previous 2 AFDs. First AFD links to
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish summer camps and local organizations, a discussion about how some were on a tear to delete all articles about Jewish summer camps. I don't think there were any accusations of ant-semitism, but I don't get the interest, either. IMHO, these Jewish summer camps like other summer camps are like public schools and parks and other places/facilities which touch the lives of many persons, often in significant ways, and are written about somewhat at least in guidebook-type literature (which can be very reliable and high in quality), and it serves the public to have these covered in at least a reference way, and IMHO Wikipedia could probably be a comprehensive gazetteer (sp?) about them, like we are for populated places. --
Doncram (
talk)
21:02, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion, and I think you present an interesting argument; however, I hope you realize that your !vote isn't a reflection of current policy. I have responses to a few of your points. 1) This article's previous AfDs from 2006 should not be given much weight in this discussion because the application of notability guidelines has changed so much since then. 2) Populated places have a subject-specific notability guideline ( WP:GEOLAND) while summer camps do not. In the absence of an SNG, you need to evaluate whether a subject has received sufficient coverage in sources, which your !vote does not do. An argument by analogy just doesn't make sense in this case. 3) Your argument that articles on some subjects should be kept because of their personal significance seems to be in opposition of WP:ORGSIG, which says that organizations (yes, schools and summer camps included) do not have any inherent notability. It does not matter (for Wikipedia purposes) whether Camp Tel Noar has touched the lives of many people; it still needs to have received significant coverage in reliable sources to be considered notable. Again, I respect your argument, but just want to point out that it does not at all reflect established consensus. – Lord Bolingbroke ( talk) 00:11, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Keep. STONG KEEP: Per Doncram. Jewish summer camps are notable - Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:33, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I am not impressed by the WP:PAG basis for the pro-retention comments. (Is there one?) If this is an IAR based argument that should be stated clearly.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 02:03, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Relisting comment: I am not impressed by the WP:PAG basis for the pro-retention comments. (Is there one?) If this is an IAR based argument that should be stated clearly.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 02:03, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
DeleteNeutral (see below). Fails WP:GNG and WP:ORG. My Google news search and regular Google search only turned up extremely tangential mentions like this and this. Also, to whomever is closing this discussion: please give due weight to the keep !votes above, as they do not present any policy-based reasons for keeping the article. – Lord Bolingbroke ( talk) 23:08, 25 August 2019 (UTC)- Comment: Is it really necessary for you to tell admins how to do their jobs?? They will be able to evaluate Doncram's position on their own and "give due weight to the KEEP". I found him persuasive. I also found the reasons presented in the previous 2 AFDs helpful. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Can't see how this is notable enough for an article and the sources do not appear to be forthcoming. Number 5 7 12:25, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep There are more sources, and more information that could be added to the article. For example, a 1971 article that says that for 25 years, there had been a Laymen's Institute held at Camp Tel Noar, sponsored by the Brotherhoods of Conservative Synagogues in New England, open to Orthodox, Reform and Conservative men, with the camp made available by the Eli and Bessie Cohen Foundation (it was reported in other years too)
[3] (Pontificalibus also found that); there was a Golden Age Club at the camp (1972)
[4]; there was a Brotherhood Youth Institute in 1962, sponsored by the National Conference of Christians and Jews
[5] - also in 1969
[6]; a 1949 article says it was affiliated with the New England Zionist Youth Movement, was non-religious with a Jewish background, for 18-30 year olds, and the two mandated activities were attendance at discussions and group singing (this article has some nice b&w photos of scenes from the camp, including one showing Eli and Bessie Cohen, which could be added to the article)
[7]; in 1947, people from the Lodge were involved in protests against the British seizure of the refugee ship Exodus, with a sign naming Tel Noar Lodge
[8]; there are bits of information about staff who worked at the camp for many years; the Jewish Journal in 2011 has an article about a new swimming pool dedicated to a long-time former director of the camp - that's in the article, so here's a source for it
[9]; information about a Camp Tel Yehudah held at Tel Noar Lodge in the late 40s, early 50s
[10]. So coverage from 1947-2011, from Boston, Missouri, New Hampshire, Vermont (not just local), and which provides more information. I think it meets
WP:GNG.If it is not considered to have enough coverage to warrant a separate article, I wonder, as
WP:ATD, if there would be enough coverage to have a combined article about the Eli and Bessie Cohen Foundation, or the three camps run by the Eli and Bessie Cohen Foundation? There seems to be more coverage than would warrant not having any article at all about the camp(s)/foundation.
RebeccaGreen (
talk)
19:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for providing these sources
RebeccaGreen. Several of them, such as
this and
this, seem to be passing mentions that don't provide significant coverage of Camp Tel Noar. With that being said, I'm changing my !vote to neutral until I can evaluate your research more thoroughly. –
Lord Bolingbroke (
talk)
23:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sources. I am changing my Keep to STONG KEEP. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:47, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for providing these sources
RebeccaGreen. Several of them, such as
this and
this, seem to be passing mentions that don't provide significant coverage of Camp Tel Noar. With that being said, I'm changing my !vote to neutral until I can evaluate your research more thoroughly. –
Lord Bolingbroke (
talk)
23:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note I previously found but disregarded most of the sources that RebeccaGreen details above as being either passing mentions, or concerning organisations unrelated to the camp who happened to hold an event at the camp's location out-of-season. Can we perhaps highlight WP:THREE that represent the most detailed coverage? Perhaps [11] might be one? ---- Pontificalibus 13:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Specific sources were surfaced to establish notability for this particular camp. RL0919 ( talk) 09:05, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Camp Tel Noar
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Camp Tel Noar ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A WP:BEFORE search has only led to inadequate sources that are mentions or biographies of attendants. Fails WP:BASIC. The previous rationales for the other deletions were over 13 years ago and was no consensus. AmericanAir88( talk) 22:18, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- This is part of a campaign covering at least 5 summer camps currently. Please see:
- -- Doncram ( talk) 21:21, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Hampshire-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:27, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to say keep on this because I don't see why a good article is impossible. At the moment it ranges from so-so to embarrassing ("The area around the Flagpole is used for lineup and raising the flags." no kidding!).
Zero
talk
10:13, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Do you have any rationale for keeping besides your opinion? AmericanAir88( talk) 18:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete A search of books and newspaper archives reveals only passing mentions and event listings. The best I could find was [1] and [2], which isn't enough to satisfy WP:ORG.---- Pontificalibus 08:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per decisions in previous 2 AFDs. First AFD links to
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish summer camps and local organizations, a discussion about how some were on a tear to delete all articles about Jewish summer camps. I don't think there were any accusations of ant-semitism, but I don't get the interest, either. IMHO, these Jewish summer camps like other summer camps are like public schools and parks and other places/facilities which touch the lives of many persons, often in significant ways, and are written about somewhat at least in guidebook-type literature (which can be very reliable and high in quality), and it serves the public to have these covered in at least a reference way, and IMHO Wikipedia could probably be a comprehensive gazetteer (sp?) about them, like we are for populated places. --
Doncram (
talk)
21:02, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion, and I think you present an interesting argument; however, I hope you realize that your !vote isn't a reflection of current policy. I have responses to a few of your points. 1) This article's previous AfDs from 2006 should not be given much weight in this discussion because the application of notability guidelines has changed so much since then. 2) Populated places have a subject-specific notability guideline ( WP:GEOLAND) while summer camps do not. In the absence of an SNG, you need to evaluate whether a subject has received sufficient coverage in sources, which your !vote does not do. An argument by analogy just doesn't make sense in this case. 3) Your argument that articles on some subjects should be kept because of their personal significance seems to be in opposition of WP:ORGSIG, which says that organizations (yes, schools and summer camps included) do not have any inherent notability. It does not matter (for Wikipedia purposes) whether Camp Tel Noar has touched the lives of many people; it still needs to have received significant coverage in reliable sources to be considered notable. Again, I respect your argument, but just want to point out that it does not at all reflect established consensus. – Lord Bolingbroke ( talk) 00:11, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Keep. STONG KEEP: Per Doncram. Jewish summer camps are notable - Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:33, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I am not impressed by the WP:PAG basis for the pro-retention comments. (Is there one?) If this is an IAR based argument that should be stated clearly.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 02:03, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Relisting comment: I am not impressed by the WP:PAG basis for the pro-retention comments. (Is there one?) If this is an IAR based argument that should be stated clearly.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 02:03, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
DeleteNeutral (see below). Fails WP:GNG and WP:ORG. My Google news search and regular Google search only turned up extremely tangential mentions like this and this. Also, to whomever is closing this discussion: please give due weight to the keep !votes above, as they do not present any policy-based reasons for keeping the article. – Lord Bolingbroke ( talk) 23:08, 25 August 2019 (UTC)- Comment: Is it really necessary for you to tell admins how to do their jobs?? They will be able to evaluate Doncram's position on their own and "give due weight to the KEEP". I found him persuasive. I also found the reasons presented in the previous 2 AFDs helpful. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Can't see how this is notable enough for an article and the sources do not appear to be forthcoming. Number 5 7 12:25, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep There are more sources, and more information that could be added to the article. For example, a 1971 article that says that for 25 years, there had been a Laymen's Institute held at Camp Tel Noar, sponsored by the Brotherhoods of Conservative Synagogues in New England, open to Orthodox, Reform and Conservative men, with the camp made available by the Eli and Bessie Cohen Foundation (it was reported in other years too)
[3] (Pontificalibus also found that); there was a Golden Age Club at the camp (1972)
[4]; there was a Brotherhood Youth Institute in 1962, sponsored by the National Conference of Christians and Jews
[5] - also in 1969
[6]; a 1949 article says it was affiliated with the New England Zionist Youth Movement, was non-religious with a Jewish background, for 18-30 year olds, and the two mandated activities were attendance at discussions and group singing (this article has some nice b&w photos of scenes from the camp, including one showing Eli and Bessie Cohen, which could be added to the article)
[7]; in 1947, people from the Lodge were involved in protests against the British seizure of the refugee ship Exodus, with a sign naming Tel Noar Lodge
[8]; there are bits of information about staff who worked at the camp for many years; the Jewish Journal in 2011 has an article about a new swimming pool dedicated to a long-time former director of the camp - that's in the article, so here's a source for it
[9]; information about a Camp Tel Yehudah held at Tel Noar Lodge in the late 40s, early 50s
[10]. So coverage from 1947-2011, from Boston, Missouri, New Hampshire, Vermont (not just local), and which provides more information. I think it meets
WP:GNG.If it is not considered to have enough coverage to warrant a separate article, I wonder, as
WP:ATD, if there would be enough coverage to have a combined article about the Eli and Bessie Cohen Foundation, or the three camps run by the Eli and Bessie Cohen Foundation? There seems to be more coverage than would warrant not having any article at all about the camp(s)/foundation.
RebeccaGreen (
talk)
19:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for providing these sources
RebeccaGreen. Several of them, such as
this and
this, seem to be passing mentions that don't provide significant coverage of Camp Tel Noar. With that being said, I'm changing my !vote to neutral until I can evaluate your research more thoroughly. –
Lord Bolingbroke (
talk)
23:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sources. I am changing my Keep to STONG KEEP. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:47, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for providing these sources
RebeccaGreen. Several of them, such as
this and
this, seem to be passing mentions that don't provide significant coverage of Camp Tel Noar. With that being said, I'm changing my !vote to neutral until I can evaluate your research more thoroughly. –
Lord Bolingbroke (
talk)
23:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note I previously found but disregarded most of the sources that RebeccaGreen details above as being either passing mentions, or concerning organisations unrelated to the camp who happened to hold an event at the camp's location out-of-season. Can we perhaps highlight WP:THREE that represent the most detailed coverage? Perhaps [11] might be one? ---- Pontificalibus 13:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.