- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Less Unless ( talk) 17:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Callum Voisin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable teenager, who fails WP:NSPORTS. The GB3 Championship that he won is an amateur series, and as such is not professional. The F3 Championship is a semi-pro series and as such is also not fully professional. Most sources are promotional, others are passing mentions of where he placed in a given race. 2A01:36D:1200:4672:5406:9F58:AF4A:C4BC ( talk) 14:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: I have fixed some malformed aspects of the formatting of the nomination. No opinion or further comment at this time. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Motorsport, Switzerland, and United Kingdom. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Appears to meet WP:GNG. The fact that the subject is a teenager and has not run in a "fully professional" series does not matter. glman ( talk) 20:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify - Not seeing evidence of the
WP:GNG being met. What coverage there is in independent
reliable sources seems to be either
WP:ROUTINE or not substantial enough to be significant (ie. this
Autosport article has only a short paragraph on the subject). The subject is still
only seventeen years old so
WP:BLP concerns are greater than usual (what with the potential for a Wikipedia article becoming a vector for school bullying or the like). If someone can show evidence of more substantial coverage that my
WP:BEFORE search has missed I may change my opinion. If the subject achieves success in FIA Formula Three then it's possible the
WP:GNG may be met in the coming year.
HumanBodyPiloter5 (
talk)
21:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Update - The sources found by User:MSport1005 show that the article's subject is more notable than I initially believed. However, I remain unconvinced that the subject is currently notable for more than WP:ONEEVENT (winning the 2023 GB3 Championship), so my vote will remain to draftify for the time being. The subject has a lot of WP:POTENTIAL to become notable in the near future but I still believe it to be WP:TOOSOON to make an article in mainspace. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 22:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify per HBP5, and as he will likely (but not certainly— WP:CRYSTALBALL) achieve GNG in the next year, it seems the best course from a WP:NOTBURO point of view. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 22:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – Firstly I'd like to note this article's 1st nomination, a year ago, resulted in keep. Sourcing within the article is poor but enough WP:SIGCOV exists online. Nominator is wrong in calling GB3 an amateur series – it's a third-tier junior single-seater series and the successor to British F3. Apart from winning this, Voisin was also recently a finalist in the prestigious Autosport BRDC Award in 2023 and is moving up to FIA F3 in 2024. While none of this ticks WP:NSPORT, coverage exists and WP:POTENTIAL is high, so I'm leaning towards keep. MSport1005 ( talk) 03:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify. Two sentences in a listicle with 9 other young racers is not SIGCOV. Routine transactional announcements and event recaps on Formula Scout et al are not SIGCOV either. Much of the transactional content on these sites is regurgitated by semi-anonymous/pseudonymous contributors from press releases from places like Edge Sporting Management anyway. I'm doubtful there'll be more coverage in the next six months, but I guess we can wait and see.
-
JoelleJay (
talk)
05:14, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Two sentences in a listicle with 9 other young racers is not SIGCOV. Routine transactional announcements and event recaps on Formula Scout et al are not SIGCOV either.
— Our job is to find sources, not to decide on the ones already listed in the article. This is categorically an improper application of the guideline. MSport1005 ( talk) 11:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)- Our job is to evaluate any sources that have been found. No one has provided additional sources that contain IRS SIGCOV, and nothing beyond routine and passing mentions showed up in my own search. NSPORT requires the subject meet GNG and that a GNG-qualifying source be identified for an article to be kept. JoelleJay ( talk) 19:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – This article has previously been kept in such a discussion (see
1st nomination), not to mention that Voisin's
WP:POTENTIAL has increased as he won GB3 and has progressed into Formula 3 for 2024.
KVYTICAL (
talk)
11:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- GB3 is not a professional series. A couple years back, an AFD was held for a singer who was announced to be participating in Eurovision and his page was draftified (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dion Cooper). I believe that Callum Voisin's page should be draftified for now; should he perform well in Formula Three (which again is not a professional but rather a semi-pro series), he will likely be notable enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia, for now, he's just one of many teenage racing drivers. - 2A01:36D:1200:4672:44C3:46D:541B:FBBF ( talk) 12:23, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - There is no reason to delete this page, considering what happened in the 1st nomination and the fact that since that, Voisin has been crowned GB3 champion (which isn't an amateur series). Article's WP:Potential is fairly high considering his recent success and F3 drive for this year. Road Atlanta Turn 5 ( talk) 14:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Voisin is a GB3 Champion and 4 out of 5 champions go on to FIA Formula 3, there are little to none amateur drivers so stop waffling mate. Formula 4 drivers get Wikipedia articles and Voisin has been announced for Formula 3 which is on the FIA Global Pathway. Zak O'Sullivan, the 2021 GB3 Championship winner, is a member of the Williams Driver Academy and is onto Formula 2 in 2024, Luke Browning the 2022 champion is apart of Williams Driver Academy and is a podium sitter in Formula 3. BurningBlaze05] ( talk) 15:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - GB3 is a series that is well established within the alternate FIA pathway at around Formula Regional level. Therefore, someone calling it an amateur series is showing the whole motorsport community that they don't have the slightest idea on how the motorsport feeder series work. Therefore, its current champion who is also stepping up to FIA F3 cannot be considered as a "run of the mill" driver and is noticeable enough to be warranted inclusion in Wikipedia. Sjælefred Herm ( talk) 18:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- None of the above keep !votes have any P&G basis. It is irrelevant whether he raced amateur or pro because our notability guidelines require SIGCOV IRS sources for all sportspeople and so far none have been identified.
JoelleJay (
talk)
19:34, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Please remember
that polling is not a substitute for consensus. There still hasn't been any
demonstration of WP:GNG being metor addressing of the WP:BLP concerns around the creation of articles about dubiously noteworthy WP:MINORS. A sportsperson being a professional or an amateur has little-to-no bearing on any of this. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 01:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)- Voisin won't be a minor by the time he makes his F3 debut – I don't see the concern in an article that purely focuses on his racing career and not his personal life – and the GB3 title, AMABA finals appearance and F3 seat make him (at the very least) not WP:ROTM. He's certainly more notable than the likes of Kean Nakamura-Berta, René Lammers, William Macintyre, Rashid Al Dhaheri or Tiago Rodrigues, whose pages keep getting created – I had to draftify them all yesterday myself because nobody acts against them. MSport1005 ( talk) 02:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Please, kindly stick to wiki etiquette and don't try to influence the flow of the discussion by discrediting everyone ("
none of the above keep !votes [...]
") who disagreed with you. The arguments go far deeper than "whether he raced amateur or pro
". As stated (both above and in last year's nomination) a WP:BEFORE search yields enough non- routine SIGCOV – [1], [2], [3], [4] to name a few. And the subject is unequivocally more notable (or bears more WP:POTENTIAL) now than he was then. MSport1005 ( talk) 02:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)- Thank you for providing those links. Search engines seem to be barely functional these days so it's really appreciated. The Autosport article counts towards WP:GNG although I'm less sure of the other examples. Formula Scout is a somewhat marginal source (I am unsure if it falls under WP:SPS) and I lack any familiarity with the other two. Regardless, I think on ethical grounds a high bar needs to be set with articles about young people who have not attracted much in the way of mainstream media coverage. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Please remember
that polling is not a substitute for consensus. There still hasn't been any
- Keep - Passes GNG. Carrite ( talk) 21:29, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. The discussion is divided between those arguing Draftify and those who desire to Keep this a main space article. Since the dispute is over whether articles sources supply GNG and SIGCOV, a source analysis table would be useful in any one is interested in compiling one.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)- Keep - per MSport1005 citations. I am not sure why this keeps getting relitigated when it already passed one add and the above discussion seems pretty clearly to have resulted in anothe keep. 108.41.198.35 ( talk) 00:43, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Good citations; notable athlete. Llajwa ( talk) 15:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Less Unless ( talk) 17:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Callum Voisin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable teenager, who fails WP:NSPORTS. The GB3 Championship that he won is an amateur series, and as such is not professional. The F3 Championship is a semi-pro series and as such is also not fully professional. Most sources are promotional, others are passing mentions of where he placed in a given race. 2A01:36D:1200:4672:5406:9F58:AF4A:C4BC ( talk) 14:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: I have fixed some malformed aspects of the formatting of the nomination. No opinion or further comment at this time. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Motorsport, Switzerland, and United Kingdom. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Appears to meet WP:GNG. The fact that the subject is a teenager and has not run in a "fully professional" series does not matter. glman ( talk) 20:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify - Not seeing evidence of the
WP:GNG being met. What coverage there is in independent
reliable sources seems to be either
WP:ROUTINE or not substantial enough to be significant (ie. this
Autosport article has only a short paragraph on the subject). The subject is still
only seventeen years old so
WP:BLP concerns are greater than usual (what with the potential for a Wikipedia article becoming a vector for school bullying or the like). If someone can show evidence of more substantial coverage that my
WP:BEFORE search has missed I may change my opinion. If the subject achieves success in FIA Formula Three then it's possible the
WP:GNG may be met in the coming year.
HumanBodyPiloter5 (
talk)
21:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Update - The sources found by User:MSport1005 show that the article's subject is more notable than I initially believed. However, I remain unconvinced that the subject is currently notable for more than WP:ONEEVENT (winning the 2023 GB3 Championship), so my vote will remain to draftify for the time being. The subject has a lot of WP:POTENTIAL to become notable in the near future but I still believe it to be WP:TOOSOON to make an article in mainspace. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 22:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify per HBP5, and as he will likely (but not certainly— WP:CRYSTALBALL) achieve GNG in the next year, it seems the best course from a WP:NOTBURO point of view. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 22:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – Firstly I'd like to note this article's 1st nomination, a year ago, resulted in keep. Sourcing within the article is poor but enough WP:SIGCOV exists online. Nominator is wrong in calling GB3 an amateur series – it's a third-tier junior single-seater series and the successor to British F3. Apart from winning this, Voisin was also recently a finalist in the prestigious Autosport BRDC Award in 2023 and is moving up to FIA F3 in 2024. While none of this ticks WP:NSPORT, coverage exists and WP:POTENTIAL is high, so I'm leaning towards keep. MSport1005 ( talk) 03:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify. Two sentences in a listicle with 9 other young racers is not SIGCOV. Routine transactional announcements and event recaps on Formula Scout et al are not SIGCOV either. Much of the transactional content on these sites is regurgitated by semi-anonymous/pseudonymous contributors from press releases from places like Edge Sporting Management anyway. I'm doubtful there'll be more coverage in the next six months, but I guess we can wait and see.
-
JoelleJay (
talk)
05:14, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Two sentences in a listicle with 9 other young racers is not SIGCOV. Routine transactional announcements and event recaps on Formula Scout et al are not SIGCOV either.
— Our job is to find sources, not to decide on the ones already listed in the article. This is categorically an improper application of the guideline. MSport1005 ( talk) 11:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)- Our job is to evaluate any sources that have been found. No one has provided additional sources that contain IRS SIGCOV, and nothing beyond routine and passing mentions showed up in my own search. NSPORT requires the subject meet GNG and that a GNG-qualifying source be identified for an article to be kept. JoelleJay ( talk) 19:31, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – This article has previously been kept in such a discussion (see
1st nomination), not to mention that Voisin's
WP:POTENTIAL has increased as he won GB3 and has progressed into Formula 3 for 2024.
KVYTICAL (
talk)
11:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- GB3 is not a professional series. A couple years back, an AFD was held for a singer who was announced to be participating in Eurovision and his page was draftified (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dion Cooper). I believe that Callum Voisin's page should be draftified for now; should he perform well in Formula Three (which again is not a professional but rather a semi-pro series), he will likely be notable enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia, for now, he's just one of many teenage racing drivers. - 2A01:36D:1200:4672:44C3:46D:541B:FBBF ( talk) 12:23, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - There is no reason to delete this page, considering what happened in the 1st nomination and the fact that since that, Voisin has been crowned GB3 champion (which isn't an amateur series). Article's WP:Potential is fairly high considering his recent success and F3 drive for this year. Road Atlanta Turn 5 ( talk) 14:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Voisin is a GB3 Champion and 4 out of 5 champions go on to FIA Formula 3, there are little to none amateur drivers so stop waffling mate. Formula 4 drivers get Wikipedia articles and Voisin has been announced for Formula 3 which is on the FIA Global Pathway. Zak O'Sullivan, the 2021 GB3 Championship winner, is a member of the Williams Driver Academy and is onto Formula 2 in 2024, Luke Browning the 2022 champion is apart of Williams Driver Academy and is a podium sitter in Formula 3. BurningBlaze05] ( talk) 15:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - GB3 is a series that is well established within the alternate FIA pathway at around Formula Regional level. Therefore, someone calling it an amateur series is showing the whole motorsport community that they don't have the slightest idea on how the motorsport feeder series work. Therefore, its current champion who is also stepping up to FIA F3 cannot be considered as a "run of the mill" driver and is noticeable enough to be warranted inclusion in Wikipedia. Sjælefred Herm ( talk) 18:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- None of the above keep !votes have any P&G basis. It is irrelevant whether he raced amateur or pro because our notability guidelines require SIGCOV IRS sources for all sportspeople and so far none have been identified.
JoelleJay (
talk)
19:34, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Please remember
that polling is not a substitute for consensus. There still hasn't been any
demonstration of WP:GNG being metor addressing of the WP:BLP concerns around the creation of articles about dubiously noteworthy WP:MINORS. A sportsperson being a professional or an amateur has little-to-no bearing on any of this. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 01:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)- Voisin won't be a minor by the time he makes his F3 debut – I don't see the concern in an article that purely focuses on his racing career and not his personal life – and the GB3 title, AMABA finals appearance and F3 seat make him (at the very least) not WP:ROTM. He's certainly more notable than the likes of Kean Nakamura-Berta, René Lammers, William Macintyre, Rashid Al Dhaheri or Tiago Rodrigues, whose pages keep getting created – I had to draftify them all yesterday myself because nobody acts against them. MSport1005 ( talk) 02:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Please, kindly stick to wiki etiquette and don't try to influence the flow of the discussion by discrediting everyone ("
none of the above keep !votes [...]
") who disagreed with you. The arguments go far deeper than "whether he raced amateur or pro
". As stated (both above and in last year's nomination) a WP:BEFORE search yields enough non- routine SIGCOV – [1], [2], [3], [4] to name a few. And the subject is unequivocally more notable (or bears more WP:POTENTIAL) now than he was then. MSport1005 ( talk) 02:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)- Thank you for providing those links. Search engines seem to be barely functional these days so it's really appreciated. The Autosport article counts towards WP:GNG although I'm less sure of the other examples. Formula Scout is a somewhat marginal source (I am unsure if it falls under WP:SPS) and I lack any familiarity with the other two. Regardless, I think on ethical grounds a high bar needs to be set with articles about young people who have not attracted much in the way of mainstream media coverage. HumanBodyPiloter5 ( talk) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Please remember
that polling is not a substitute for consensus. There still hasn't been any
- Keep - Passes GNG. Carrite ( talk) 21:29, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. The discussion is divided between those arguing Draftify and those who desire to Keep this a main space article. Since the dispute is over whether articles sources supply GNG and SIGCOV, a source analysis table would be useful in any one is interested in compiling one.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)- Keep - per MSport1005 citations. I am not sure why this keeps getting relitigated when it already passed one add and the above discussion seems pretty clearly to have resulted in anothe keep. 108.41.198.35 ( talk) 00:43, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Good citations; notable athlete. Llajwa ( talk) 15:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.