- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Vanamonde ( Talk) 18:31, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Cai Haoyu
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Cai Haoyu ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:NBIO Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 09:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 09:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and China. Shellwood ( talk) 09:55, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. The sources mostly discuss the company and the game, not the individual. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 16:15, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Jumpytoo Talk 18:29, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria says:
People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.
- If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
- Feng, Yunyun 冯云云 (2022-07-15).
""野蛮生长"米哈游：济南小伙在上海创业，身价直逼李彦宏" ["Barbaric Growth" Mihayou: The Jinan guy started a business in Shanghai, and his worth is close to Li Yanhong].
Shandong Business Daily (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12 – via
Economic Daily.
The article notes from Google Translate: "According to local media reports in Jinan, Cai Haoyu, who was born in 1987, is a native of Jinan. He attended the primary school in Jinan Baliqiao Primary School. At the age of 11, he was elected as the "first batch of junior academicians of the Chinese Academy of Youth Sciences". In 2005, he was admitted to Shanghai Jiaotong University. In 2011, 24-year-old Cai Haoyu and [his co-founders] founded Mihayou after winning 100,000 yuan from the "Eagle Program" of the Shanghai Science and Technology Entrepreneurship Center Student Entrepreneurship Foundation."
The article further notes from Google Translate: "In the "2022 New Fortune 500 Rich List" released in May this year, Cai Haoyu ranked 73rd with a wealth value of 55.35 billion yuan. ... This is the first time that 35-year-old Cai Haoyu has been included in the 500 rich list. Among the top 100 in the list, Cai Haoyu is the only entrepreneur who was shortlisted for the single item "game"."
- Lin, 林红艳 (2022-03-09). Kang, Linghua 康玲华 (ed.).
"米哈游CEO蔡浩宇上学时就研发网游 公司却因"兔女郎"引轩然大波" [Mihayou CEO Cai Haoyu developed online games when he was in school, but the company caused an uproar because of the "bunny girl"]. 运营商财经 (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12 – via
NetEase.
The article notes from Google Translate: "According to public information, Cai Haoyu was born in 1987, was admitted to Shanghai Jiaotong University in 2005, and then studied for a master's degree in computer science at the school. In 2011, Cai Haoyu, Liu Wei and Luo Yuhao, who were in the second year of graduate school at the time, jointly established Mihayou Studio and started his business."
- Tang, Zhenglu 唐正璐, ed. (2022-06-21).
"三位年轻人，造出游戏界"印钞机"，席卷全球，缔造千亿估值" [Three young people created a "money printing machine" in the game industry, sweeping the world and creating a valuation of 100 billion]. 七禾网 (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12.
The article notes from Google Translate: "According to public information, Cai Haoyu, who has just become the richest man in Jinan, is the CEO of Mihayou. He was born in Jinan, Shandong in 1987. His parents are teachers who teach computer-related subjects. Cai Haoyu has shown a strong interest in computer games since he was a child, and he has also shown an intuition that is unmatched by ordinary people. After his parents discovered that he was gifted in this area, they began to systematically teach him relevant computer knowledge. With the computer knowledge he learned, in 1996, Cai Haoyu, who was only 8 years old, made "Alien Envoy" by himself and won the second prize in the animation group of the National Computer Competition. Two years after winning the award, at the age of 10, he was elected as the "Little Academician" of the Chinese Academy of Juveniles with his professional knowledge in the computer field."
- Bu, Jing 步静, ed. (2019-02-22).
"别人家的孩子太优秀！这些"85后"正踏上IPO征途" [Other people's children are amazing! These "post-85s" are embarking on the IPO journey].
Shanghai Securities Journal (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12 – via
National Business Daily.
The article notes from Google Translate: "Cai Haoyu, chairman of Mihayou, was born in a businessman family. Influenced by his parents, he had the gene for "doing business" since he was a child. When he was in junior high school, he was a little smart in Japan, he sold watches in high school. He opened an account to speculate in stocks when he was an adult. When he was in college, he could earn more than 300,000 a month. But doing business did not delay his studies. After graduating from Shanghai Jiaotong University with a master's degree, Cai Haoyu ran all the way on the road of entrepreneurship. In 2012, Cai Haoyu and two classmates from Shanghai Jiaotong University founded Mihayou, whose business mainly focuses on domestic animation mobile games, comics and other fields."
- That's good and all but I don't think they have made a "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field". Futher the whole article reads like a cross between a promo and resume. Just having money and running a company is not notable.
Dr vulpes (
💬 •
📝)
04:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- A "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field" is a quote from
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Any biography, a subsection of
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria, which says:
Cai Haoyu is notable under Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline and Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria.People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.
A person who does not meet these additional criteria may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.
While the article can be improved to be more neutral, Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required.
- A "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field" is a quote from
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Any biography, a subsection of
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria, which says:
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 10:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep
Merge- to mihoyo, which much of the current prose is more about. If someone can muster up a proper bio with reliable sourcing, I don't have a problem with splitting it back out. But we're far from that in the articles current prose. Sergecross73 msg me 13:28, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
- Revised to keep. Still not in amazing shape, but good enough to clear the GNG and avoid any WP:MERGEREASONs now. Sergecross73 msg me 01:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge - to mihoyo is a good option Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 04:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Merge to miHoYo#History. Likely notable from Cunard's sources, but content is mainly about miHoYo and is better off there until someone wants to create an article that's more balanced about his life. Feel free to ping if anyone wants to try a WP:HEY. Jumpytoo Talk 07:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Thanks Cunard for the WP:HEY. Now suitable for a standalone article. Jumpytoo Talk 23:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Within the next week, I plan to reframe the article to be about the person rather than the company he co-founded using the sources I presented here.
Cunard (
talk)
11:30, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- That's great. Feel free to work on it from the user/draft space if you end up doing it after this closes merge. Sergecross73 msg me 17:12, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Dr vulpes ( talk · contribs), Thebiguglyalien ( talk · contribs), Sergecross73 ( talk · contribs), and Jumpytoo ( talk · contribs), I reframed the article to be about the person ( Cai Haoyu) rather than the company he co-founded ( mihoyo). Cunard ( talk) 07:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not sure how to close this discussion when the current article is radically different from the version that was nominated for deletion.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- This is a frustrating one, the article has improved but I still don't think it passes WP:NBIO. @ Liz you know a lot more then me do you think there might be some subject area experts we could ping to weigh in? I'm not really sure where to start with something like that. I'm also willing to admit when I'm starting drift out of my lane. Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 03:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure
User:Dr vulpes. I've seen this happen a couple of times where, during an AFD, an article isn't just improved but changed, in one case, to be about a different subject. I'm not sure why editors can't wait for an AFD to close before making major changes or merging articles. I'll ping
Sergecross73 to see what they think.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I don't believe Cunard has done anything wrong - Ive many times in the past rewritten articles in efforts to keep poor/lazy deletion nominations. Not that this nom was either - it was a very good nomination for the articles original form. Honestly, I'm probably more of a "neutral" in all this right now. Cunard did address my main concerns...but at the same time, it's still a pretty rough bio. Which isn't to slight to Cunard either, I imagine the goal was merely do enough to keep the article, not write a comprehensive bio on the subject. And they didn't so much "change the subject" as much as they removed the off-topic stuff and added on-topic content.
- Sorry, that's a lot of musing without a solution. Here's what we could try - maybe we relist it one more time, and I could leave a neutral note at
WP:VG asking for more input because we're at a bit of a stalemate. WP:VG usually has a bunch of regulars that participate at AFD, and for whatever reason I was really the only one who jumped on this time. A nudge could help.
Sergecross73
msg me
22:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I have substantially rewritten articles at AfDs numerous times in the past too. I did so in this particular case because two editors (Sergecross73 and Jumpytoo) said they were willing to reconsider their "merge" position if the article was reframed to be about the person rather than the company he founded. Per
Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required, there is more work that can be done to expand and improve the article, but I think it is in a good state now. There are detailed sections about the subject's "Early life" and "Career". The article no longer has multiple paragraphs about the company with little discussion of him.
No editors have explained why the sources are insufficient for Cai Haoyu to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline and Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria. The AfD has received sufficient input to be closed and it's not clear why this needs to be relisted. But if the AfD is relisted, I support a neutral note at WP:VG asking for more input.
- I have substantially rewritten articles at AfDs numerous times in the past too. I did so in this particular case because two editors (Sergecross73 and Jumpytoo) said they were willing to reconsider their "merge" position if the article was reframed to be about the person rather than the company he founded. Per
Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required, there is more work that can be done to expand and improve the article, but I think it is in a good state now. There are detailed sections about the subject's "Early life" and "Career". The article no longer has multiple paragraphs about the company with little discussion of him.
- I'm not sure
User:Dr vulpes. I've seen this happen a couple of times where, during an AFD, an article isn't just improved but changed, in one case, to be about a different subject. I'm not sure why editors can't wait for an AFD to close before making major changes or merging articles. I'll ping
Sergecross73 to see what they think.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Vanamonde ( Talk) 18:31, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Cai Haoyu
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Cai Haoyu ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:NBIO Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 09:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 09:53, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and China. Shellwood ( talk) 09:55, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. The sources mostly discuss the company and the game, not the individual. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 16:15, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Jumpytoo Talk 18:29, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria says:
People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.
- If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
- Feng, Yunyun 冯云云 (2022-07-15).
""野蛮生长"米哈游：济南小伙在上海创业，身价直逼李彦宏" ["Barbaric Growth" Mihayou: The Jinan guy started a business in Shanghai, and his worth is close to Li Yanhong].
Shandong Business Daily (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12 – via
Economic Daily.
The article notes from Google Translate: "According to local media reports in Jinan, Cai Haoyu, who was born in 1987, is a native of Jinan. He attended the primary school in Jinan Baliqiao Primary School. At the age of 11, he was elected as the "first batch of junior academicians of the Chinese Academy of Youth Sciences". In 2005, he was admitted to Shanghai Jiaotong University. In 2011, 24-year-old Cai Haoyu and [his co-founders] founded Mihayou after winning 100,000 yuan from the "Eagle Program" of the Shanghai Science and Technology Entrepreneurship Center Student Entrepreneurship Foundation."
The article further notes from Google Translate: "In the "2022 New Fortune 500 Rich List" released in May this year, Cai Haoyu ranked 73rd with a wealth value of 55.35 billion yuan. ... This is the first time that 35-year-old Cai Haoyu has been included in the 500 rich list. Among the top 100 in the list, Cai Haoyu is the only entrepreneur who was shortlisted for the single item "game"."
- Lin, 林红艳 (2022-03-09). Kang, Linghua 康玲华 (ed.).
"米哈游CEO蔡浩宇上学时就研发网游 公司却因"兔女郎"引轩然大波" [Mihayou CEO Cai Haoyu developed online games when he was in school, but the company caused an uproar because of the "bunny girl"]. 运营商财经 (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12 – via
NetEase.
The article notes from Google Translate: "According to public information, Cai Haoyu was born in 1987, was admitted to Shanghai Jiaotong University in 2005, and then studied for a master's degree in computer science at the school. In 2011, Cai Haoyu, Liu Wei and Luo Yuhao, who were in the second year of graduate school at the time, jointly established Mihayou Studio and started his business."
- Tang, Zhenglu 唐正璐, ed. (2022-06-21).
"三位年轻人，造出游戏界"印钞机"，席卷全球，缔造千亿估值" [Three young people created a "money printing machine" in the game industry, sweeping the world and creating a valuation of 100 billion]. 七禾网 (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12.
The article notes from Google Translate: "According to public information, Cai Haoyu, who has just become the richest man in Jinan, is the CEO of Mihayou. He was born in Jinan, Shandong in 1987. His parents are teachers who teach computer-related subjects. Cai Haoyu has shown a strong interest in computer games since he was a child, and he has also shown an intuition that is unmatched by ordinary people. After his parents discovered that he was gifted in this area, they began to systematically teach him relevant computer knowledge. With the computer knowledge he learned, in 1996, Cai Haoyu, who was only 8 years old, made "Alien Envoy" by himself and won the second prize in the animation group of the National Computer Competition. Two years after winning the award, at the age of 10, he was elected as the "Little Academician" of the Chinese Academy of Juveniles with his professional knowledge in the computer field."
- Bu, Jing 步静, ed. (2019-02-22).
"别人家的孩子太优秀！这些"85后"正踏上IPO征途" [Other people's children are amazing! These "post-85s" are embarking on the IPO journey].
Shanghai Securities Journal (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2022-09-12. Retrieved 2022-09-12 – via
National Business Daily.
The article notes from Google Translate: "Cai Haoyu, chairman of Mihayou, was born in a businessman family. Influenced by his parents, he had the gene for "doing business" since he was a child. When he was in junior high school, he was a little smart in Japan, he sold watches in high school. He opened an account to speculate in stocks when he was an adult. When he was in college, he could earn more than 300,000 a month. But doing business did not delay his studies. After graduating from Shanghai Jiaotong University with a master's degree, Cai Haoyu ran all the way on the road of entrepreneurship. In 2012, Cai Haoyu and two classmates from Shanghai Jiaotong University founded Mihayou, whose business mainly focuses on domestic animation mobile games, comics and other fields."
- That's good and all but I don't think they have made a "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field". Futher the whole article reads like a cross between a promo and resume. Just having money and running a company is not notable.
Dr vulpes (
💬 •
📝)
04:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- A "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field" is a quote from
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Any biography, a subsection of
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria, which says:
Cai Haoyu is notable under Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline and Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria.People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.
A person who does not meet these additional criteria may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability.
While the article can be improved to be more neutral, Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required.
- A "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field" is a quote from
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Any biography, a subsection of
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Additional criteria, which says:
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 10:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep
Merge- to mihoyo, which much of the current prose is more about. If someone can muster up a proper bio with reliable sourcing, I don't have a problem with splitting it back out. But we're far from that in the articles current prose. Sergecross73 msg me 13:28, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
- Revised to keep. Still not in amazing shape, but good enough to clear the GNG and avoid any WP:MERGEREASONs now. Sergecross73 msg me 01:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge - to mihoyo is a good option Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 04:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Merge to miHoYo#History. Likely notable from Cunard's sources, but content is mainly about miHoYo and is better off there until someone wants to create an article that's more balanced about his life. Feel free to ping if anyone wants to try a WP:HEY. Jumpytoo Talk 07:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Thanks Cunard for the WP:HEY. Now suitable for a standalone article. Jumpytoo Talk 23:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Within the next week, I plan to reframe the article to be about the person rather than the company he co-founded using the sources I presented here.
Cunard (
talk)
11:30, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- That's great. Feel free to work on it from the user/draft space if you end up doing it after this closes merge. Sergecross73 msg me 17:12, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Dr vulpes ( talk · contribs), Thebiguglyalien ( talk · contribs), Sergecross73 ( talk · contribs), and Jumpytoo ( talk · contribs), I reframed the article to be about the person ( Cai Haoyu) rather than the company he co-founded ( mihoyo). Cunard ( talk) 07:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I'm not sure how to close this discussion when the current article is radically different from the version that was nominated for deletion.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
- This is a frustrating one, the article has improved but I still don't think it passes WP:NBIO. @ Liz you know a lot more then me do you think there might be some subject area experts we could ping to weigh in? I'm not really sure where to start with something like that. I'm also willing to admit when I'm starting drift out of my lane. Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 03:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure
User:Dr vulpes. I've seen this happen a couple of times where, during an AFD, an article isn't just improved but changed, in one case, to be about a different subject. I'm not sure why editors can't wait for an AFD to close before making major changes or merging articles. I'll ping
Sergecross73 to see what they think.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I don't believe Cunard has done anything wrong - Ive many times in the past rewritten articles in efforts to keep poor/lazy deletion nominations. Not that this nom was either - it was a very good nomination for the articles original form. Honestly, I'm probably more of a "neutral" in all this right now. Cunard did address my main concerns...but at the same time, it's still a pretty rough bio. Which isn't to slight to Cunard either, I imagine the goal was merely do enough to keep the article, not write a comprehensive bio on the subject. And they didn't so much "change the subject" as much as they removed the off-topic stuff and added on-topic content.
- Sorry, that's a lot of musing without a solution. Here's what we could try - maybe we relist it one more time, and I could leave a neutral note at
WP:VG asking for more input because we're at a bit of a stalemate. WP:VG usually has a bunch of regulars that participate at AFD, and for whatever reason I was really the only one who jumped on this time. A nudge could help.
Sergecross73
msg me
22:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I have substantially rewritten articles at AfDs numerous times in the past too. I did so in this particular case because two editors (Sergecross73 and Jumpytoo) said they were willing to reconsider their "merge" position if the article was reframed to be about the person rather than the company he founded. Per
Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required, there is more work that can be done to expand and improve the article, but I think it is in a good state now. There are detailed sections about the subject's "Early life" and "Career". The article no longer has multiple paragraphs about the company with little discussion of him.
No editors have explained why the sources are insufficient for Cai Haoyu to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline and Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria. The AfD has received sufficient input to be closed and it's not clear why this needs to be relisted. But if the AfD is relisted, I support a neutral note at WP:VG asking for more input.
- I have substantially rewritten articles at AfDs numerous times in the past too. I did so in this particular case because two editors (Sergecross73 and Jumpytoo) said they were willing to reconsider their "merge" position if the article was reframed to be about the person rather than the company he founded. Per
Wikipedia:Editing policy#Wikipedia is a work in progress: perfection is not required, there is more work that can be done to expand and improve the article, but I think it is in a good state now. There are detailed sections about the subject's "Early life" and "Career". The article no longer has multiple paragraphs about the company with little discussion of him.
- I'm not sure
User:Dr vulpes. I've seen this happen a couple of times where, during an AFD, an article isn't just improved but changed, in one case, to be about a different subject. I'm not sure why editors can't wait for an AFD to close before making major changes or merging articles. I'll ping
Sergecross73 to see what they think.
Liz
Read!
Talk!
22:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.