The result was delete. There is a consensus that the sources provided do not meet WP:RS Spartaz Humbug! 14:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC) reply
A similar article was created speedy deleted in May 2007. I originally deleted this article a second time but the creator stated that he had several independent sources to back up notability. I still believe the article fails WP:MUSIC because almost all of the links provided are for very niche type sites. Also, none of the albums the band has released have articles. They are on a minor label and haven't charted as far as I can see. I did a Google search but many were for entirely different bands called Bankrupt. There is a template that will need to be deleted if this article is. Woohookitty Woohoo! 09:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
- 7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; besides - 1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable
It is not stated here that the reference cannot be a "niche" publication. Several of these publications are considered as reliable sources in the punk community. Ox fanzine is the No.1 punk rock magazine of Germany.
I'll create pages for the band's albums. They may be on a minor label, but their recent releases are available worldwide on iTunes and Amazon.
Please note that a band is notable if it meets ANY of the notability criteria, therefore charting is not an obligatory criterion.
Regarding your argument of Google search: please do a search on last.fm. The only band called Bankrupt that comes up with over 15,000 listeners is this one. You can also search MySpace for Bankrupt for similar results.
Strummer25 ( talk) 10:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
If you bothered to actually look up the sources before you call them unreliable, you could see that Ox Fanzine has published 80 issues since 1988, and is the largest punk rock fanzine in Germany. Moloko Plus is another major German punk rock fanzine with over 30 issues released. Distorted Magazine from the UK is a very unique flash-based online magazine with over 20 issues published. Est.hu is a major Hungarian entertainment portal. Southspace.de, thepunksite.com, and kvakpunkrock.cz are all punk music portals with hundreds of reviews published, and having a significant readership. Also, Left Of The Dial (USA) was originally a respected print zine, before the author decided to go on as a blog. (see: http://www.insound.com/Left_of_the_Dial/artistmain/artist/INS20548/)
Strummer25 ( talk) 12:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
Popular culture and fiction
Articles related to popular culture and fiction must be backed up by reliable sources like all other articles. However, due to the subject matter, many may not be discussed in the same academic contexts as science, law, philosophy and so on; it is common that plot analysis and criticism, for instance, may only be found in what would otherwise be considered unreliable sources.
To further back up the reliabilty of my sources, you can check out Ox fanzine on the German wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_(Zeitschrift)
Check how many times ThePunkSite.com has already been used as a reference already. Just a few examples:
The_Falcon_(band), MxPx, Say_Anything_(band), Feeling_This, Unicornography
Examples of Left Of the Dial used as a reference:
Snatches_of_Pink, The_Hugh_Beaumont_Experience
You should understand that for punk bands punk music publications are the reliable sources. People who are interested in this music read these, they are not looking for punk bands in the Washington Post or whatever you were expecting as a reliable source.
Strummer25 ( talk) 14:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strummer25 ( talk • contribs) reply
The band is notable once
1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable
The 10 different music webzines and portals I reference are non-trivial, independent, and reliable.
People who claim they are not reliable should provide evidence for this. "I believe" and "look like" is not evidence. I've provided background information on them, you should argue why they are not reliable.
Strummer25 ( talk) 15:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
Strummer25 ( talk) 16:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
http://www.answers.com/topic/dredg-1
Also used as a reference in this mainstream entertainment portal article:
http://www.livedaily.com/news/13589.html
Also listed by several record labels among review references. Just one example:
http://www.sideonedummy.com/press.php?band_name=The_Gaslight_Anthem
These should confirm the reliability of the source, as it's an example of the following WP:SPS exception:
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Strummer25 ( talk) 21:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
http://www.epitaph.com/news/news/2881
Here referenced on a mainstream entertainment portal:
http://www.iomtoday.co.im/what-where-when/Double-dose-of-punk-in.4505078.jp
This is further proof that my sources are reliable.
09:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strummer25 ( talk • contribs)
"Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture". So publications devoted to subcultures such as punk rock can be used as references when it comes to determining the notability of an act belonging to a certain subculture. Since there are numerous such publications referenced in the article, it passes the criterion and should be kept. Strummer25 ( talk) 22:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC) reply
The result was delete. There is a consensus that the sources provided do not meet WP:RS Spartaz Humbug! 14:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC) reply
A similar article was created speedy deleted in May 2007. I originally deleted this article a second time but the creator stated that he had several independent sources to back up notability. I still believe the article fails WP:MUSIC because almost all of the links provided are for very niche type sites. Also, none of the albums the band has released have articles. They are on a minor label and haven't charted as far as I can see. I did a Google search but many were for entirely different bands called Bankrupt. There is a template that will need to be deleted if this article is. Woohookitty Woohoo! 09:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
- 7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; besides - 1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable
It is not stated here that the reference cannot be a "niche" publication. Several of these publications are considered as reliable sources in the punk community. Ox fanzine is the No.1 punk rock magazine of Germany.
I'll create pages for the band's albums. They may be on a minor label, but their recent releases are available worldwide on iTunes and Amazon.
Please note that a band is notable if it meets ANY of the notability criteria, therefore charting is not an obligatory criterion.
Regarding your argument of Google search: please do a search on last.fm. The only band called Bankrupt that comes up with over 15,000 listeners is this one. You can also search MySpace for Bankrupt for similar results.
Strummer25 ( talk) 10:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
If you bothered to actually look up the sources before you call them unreliable, you could see that Ox Fanzine has published 80 issues since 1988, and is the largest punk rock fanzine in Germany. Moloko Plus is another major German punk rock fanzine with over 30 issues released. Distorted Magazine from the UK is a very unique flash-based online magazine with over 20 issues published. Est.hu is a major Hungarian entertainment portal. Southspace.de, thepunksite.com, and kvakpunkrock.cz are all punk music portals with hundreds of reviews published, and having a significant readership. Also, Left Of The Dial (USA) was originally a respected print zine, before the author decided to go on as a blog. (see: http://www.insound.com/Left_of_the_Dial/artistmain/artist/INS20548/)
Strummer25 ( talk) 12:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
Popular culture and fiction
Articles related to popular culture and fiction must be backed up by reliable sources like all other articles. However, due to the subject matter, many may not be discussed in the same academic contexts as science, law, philosophy and so on; it is common that plot analysis and criticism, for instance, may only be found in what would otherwise be considered unreliable sources.
To further back up the reliabilty of my sources, you can check out Ox fanzine on the German wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_(Zeitschrift)
Check how many times ThePunkSite.com has already been used as a reference already. Just a few examples:
The_Falcon_(band), MxPx, Say_Anything_(band), Feeling_This, Unicornography
Examples of Left Of the Dial used as a reference:
Snatches_of_Pink, The_Hugh_Beaumont_Experience
You should understand that for punk bands punk music publications are the reliable sources. People who are interested in this music read these, they are not looking for punk bands in the Washington Post or whatever you were expecting as a reliable source.
Strummer25 ( talk) 14:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strummer25 ( talk • contribs) reply
The band is notable once
1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable
The 10 different music webzines and portals I reference are non-trivial, independent, and reliable.
People who claim they are not reliable should provide evidence for this. "I believe" and "look like" is not evidence. I've provided background information on them, you should argue why they are not reliable.
Strummer25 ( talk) 15:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
Strummer25 ( talk) 16:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
http://www.answers.com/topic/dredg-1
Also used as a reference in this mainstream entertainment portal article:
http://www.livedaily.com/news/13589.html
Also listed by several record labels among review references. Just one example:
http://www.sideonedummy.com/press.php?band_name=The_Gaslight_Anthem
These should confirm the reliability of the source, as it's an example of the following WP:SPS exception:
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Strummer25 ( talk) 21:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC) reply
http://www.epitaph.com/news/news/2881
Here referenced on a mainstream entertainment portal:
http://www.iomtoday.co.im/what-where-when/Double-dose-of-punk-in.4505078.jp
This is further proof that my sources are reliable.
09:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strummer25 ( talk • contribs)
"Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture". So publications devoted to subcultures such as punk rock can be used as references when it comes to determining the notability of an act belonging to a certain subculture. Since there are numerous such publications referenced in the article, it passes the criterion and should be kept. Strummer25 ( talk) 22:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC) reply