- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Options were split about equally between deleting, keeping and merging. A NC result allows for a further merge discussion to take place. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Bahamut (Dungeons & Dragons)
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- Bahamut (Dungeons & Dragons) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Fictional character that fails WP:GNG, WP:NFICTION. Pure WP:PLOT. BEFORE fails to find anything that's not an in-universe fictional biography summary. Could be soft deleted by redirecting to List of Forgotten Realms deities. Prodded by me. Redirected by User:BOZ. Restored by User:Necrothesp with "rv; has been arround since the beginning of D&D; I think this needs to go to AfD". Ok, we are here, outcome obviously is going to be the same so what's the WP:POINT? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:14, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:14, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fantasy-related deletion discussions. 08:56, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 09:03, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep or at worst Fully Merge to List of Dungeons & Dragons dragon deities. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 09:15, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. No rationale given for keep votes above. AfD WP:NOTAVOTE.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:16, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep The existing sources satisfy GNG but the article could be improved. There a recent philosophy text that discusses Bahamut specifically. I'll add it now. AugusteBlanqui ( talk) 10:54, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable, WP:INUNIVERSE, navel-gazing fancruft that fails WP:GNG hard. No indication of real-world notability. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 23:01, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Delete fails GNG. It is time to take a stand against fancruft. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:28, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Not a lot of great independent sources, but there are quite a few that briefly discuss the subject (e.g. Mythical and Fabulous Creatures A Source Book and Research Guide, Critical Role: Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting). Sources like "Bahamut and Tiamat", by Skip Williams is certainly in-depth and it is somewhat independent. The non-independent sources go into great depth and have coverage for years. It's not clearly over the GNG bar, but unlike a lot of the D&D stuff that's seen deletion, this one has seem non-trivial real-world impact (in other games such as Final Fantasy, https://sv.bagoum.com/cards/103041010%7Cthis card game], this bike, etc.) We should be covering the source of the name. Hobit ( talk) 01:59, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- The Final Fantasy version merely pulls the name and the fact that it's a dragon, with no other obvious similarities. That, to me, isn't something worthy of note. All of that can be mentioned in Bahamut#In popular culture (after the cruft is removed). ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 15:53, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Dungeons & Dragons dragon deities, and make it just a capsule description there like the other entries. There are also a few parts that could be migrated to other articles, such as what's mentioned directly above my comment. But I can't find anything new to keep it as a separate article. I also looked at the existing sources in the article. Dungeons and Dragons and Philosophy looks like a great source, but it only mentions Bahamut in passing in a single sentence. Dragons: The Myths, Legends, and Lore is also a good source, but its coverage of Bahamut is only one page and pretty much purely descriptive. It could be a solid source for the merged content. Almost everything else after those is a primary source. The last three entries are promising, but one ( "Mythological Accuracy") is just a list from a non- RS that no longer exists. The RPGnet review and the Gygax interview are both passing mentions. — Torchiest talk edits 04:18, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. It does meet WP:GNG, but I think the merge discussion should probably be separate. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 04:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Redirect - Current sourcing is insufficient. It seems like one of the more prominent of its subset of characters, so it probably deserves mention somewhere on Wikipedia. It does not, as of this time, need an article per GNG though. TTN ( talk) 18:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Pure PLOT. Fails GNG/NFICTION. Not opposed to redirect. Kacper IV ( talk) 11:47, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Options were split about equally between deleting, keeping and merging. A NC result allows for a further merge discussion to take place. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Bahamut (Dungeons & Dragons)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Bahamut (Dungeons & Dragons) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fictional character that fails WP:GNG, WP:NFICTION. Pure WP:PLOT. BEFORE fails to find anything that's not an in-universe fictional biography summary. Could be soft deleted by redirecting to List of Forgotten Realms deities. Prodded by me. Redirected by User:BOZ. Restored by User:Necrothesp with "rv; has been arround since the beginning of D&D; I think this needs to go to AfD". Ok, we are here, outcome obviously is going to be the same so what's the WP:POINT? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:14, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:14, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fantasy-related deletion discussions. 08:56, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 09:03, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep or at worst Fully Merge to List of Dungeons & Dragons dragon deities. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 09:15, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. No rationale given for keep votes above. AfD WP:NOTAVOTE.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:16, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep The existing sources satisfy GNG but the article could be improved. There a recent philosophy text that discusses Bahamut specifically. I'll add it now. AugusteBlanqui ( talk) 10:54, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Non-notable, WP:INUNIVERSE, navel-gazing fancruft that fails WP:GNG hard. No indication of real-world notability. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 23:01, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Delete fails GNG. It is time to take a stand against fancruft. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:28, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Not a lot of great independent sources, but there are quite a few that briefly discuss the subject (e.g. Mythical and Fabulous Creatures A Source Book and Research Guide, Critical Role: Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting). Sources like "Bahamut and Tiamat", by Skip Williams is certainly in-depth and it is somewhat independent. The non-independent sources go into great depth and have coverage for years. It's not clearly over the GNG bar, but unlike a lot of the D&D stuff that's seen deletion, this one has seem non-trivial real-world impact (in other games such as Final Fantasy, https://sv.bagoum.com/cards/103041010%7Cthis card game], this bike, etc.) We should be covering the source of the name. Hobit ( talk) 01:59, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- The Final Fantasy version merely pulls the name and the fact that it's a dragon, with no other obvious similarities. That, to me, isn't something worthy of note. All of that can be mentioned in Bahamut#In popular culture (after the cruft is removed). ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 15:53, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Dungeons & Dragons dragon deities, and make it just a capsule description there like the other entries. There are also a few parts that could be migrated to other articles, such as what's mentioned directly above my comment. But I can't find anything new to keep it as a separate article. I also looked at the existing sources in the article. Dungeons and Dragons and Philosophy looks like a great source, but it only mentions Bahamut in passing in a single sentence. Dragons: The Myths, Legends, and Lore is also a good source, but its coverage of Bahamut is only one page and pretty much purely descriptive. It could be a solid source for the merged content. Almost everything else after those is a primary source. The last three entries are promising, but one ( "Mythological Accuracy") is just a list from a non- RS that no longer exists. The RPGnet review and the Gygax interview are both passing mentions. — Torchiest talk edits 04:18, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. It does meet WP:GNG, but I think the merge discussion should probably be separate. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 04:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Redirect - Current sourcing is insufficient. It seems like one of the more prominent of its subset of characters, so it probably deserves mention somewhere on Wikipedia. It does not, as of this time, need an article per GNG though. TTN ( talk) 18:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Pure PLOT. Fails GNG/NFICTION. Not opposed to redirect. Kacper IV ( talk) 11:47, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.