- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. czar 03:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
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- B. Griffith ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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Noticed this because this was tagged for sports notability with only a first initial, which was a red flag, but my research shows that he was not the head coach, but rather the team captain and quarterback: [1]. A Griffith was the left end in 1890 as well [2].
While we tend to keep head coaching articles for passing WP:GNG, this article both fails WP:GNG and appears to be based on an incorrect premise that he was the head coach and not the team captain. My assumption is that these were effectively the same thing at the time, but I don't think this is eligible for a stand-alone article: I'd suggest merging and/or redirecting the information, probably to the list of Franklin & Marshall coaches in the template, or to the football program generally. SportingFlyer T· C 22:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer T· C 22:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer T· C 22:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say first validate the information and then decide. If it can't be validated, we have our answer.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 23:49, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like our man here is Bruce Griffith (1867–1956). See
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76858279/evening-eagle/,
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76858279/evening-eagle/, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76858230/obituary-for-bruce-griffith-aged-88/, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/23809993/bruce-griffith. Jweiss11 ( talk) 00:30, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
- This makes sense! I found a Bruce Griffith in my search, but he was referenced in the context of a fraternity, not in a football sense, so I didn't list it here. SportingFlyer T· C 14:35, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:53, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. In the sources given above, none so far that I can see make the connection between this B. Griffith and the Bruce Griffith from Findagrave and the Evening Eagle. Perhaps it's in the first page of the latter article, as that one isn't given above (by accident I suppose). Even so, it doesn't look as if he was a notable headcoach, just like many other head coaches from this period. Fram ( talk) 15:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep I've started to expand there article. Found another 1931 feature article that solidifies the Bruce Griffith, postmaster of Wichita, as the member of the Franklin & Marshall football team circa 1890. Between Griffith's college football exploits, work as a clergyman, military service, and civil service, I think he passes GNG, much like his F&M teammate and predecessor as captain, William Mann Irvine. It's unclear exactly whether Griffith was head coach or just captain of the F&M team in 1891 and 1892. Current day records on the F&M website credit him as both captain in 1892 and coach in 1891 and 1892; see https://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-footbl/Career_Stats/yearandcoach and https://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-footbl/Career_Stats/captains. Jweiss11 ( talk) 01:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- This 1951 article sheds some light on F&M early captains doubling as coaches. Jweiss11 ( talk) 03:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep but not as a coach. The historical record (including this, this, this, and this) does not IMO support the assertion that Griffith was a "head coach." To the contrary, it shows that he was a student, player, and team captain during the 1891 and 1892 seasons. Many colleges (even major ones) did not have head coaches in the early 1890s, and team captains were the de facto team leaders. But captaincy is not the same as "head coach." I have encountered this situation before where college sports information departments, reporters, and Wikipedia editors, operating many decades after the fact, retroactively try to fill vacant "head coach" slots by inserting the names of the team captains. While referring to him as a head coach is not IMO historically accurate, Griffith does pass the GNG bar based on the coverage cited above and in the article (see also here and here). Cbl62 ( talk) 13:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- May I ask what your search terms were? I only found a small number of results, and none directly listing him as "Bruce Griffith." I did only limit it to the years in which he played, though, thinking about it. Also, the article's been well improved and I no longer support deleting it, but it should be more football-orientated. SportingFlyer T· C 13:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- I used griffith “Bruce griffith” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbl62 ( talk • contribs) 16:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep and cleanup/edit.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 19:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep passes GNG.-- Ortizesp ( talk) 14:11, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: While the keep !votes seem to have the headcount, some of them are just vague waves at policy. Further discussion regarding the sources found and their applicability to passing GNG would be warranted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 00:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: I agree on RandomCanadians previous argument for relisting, since then no new votes so give it another round.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CommanderWaterford ( talk) 14:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@ RandomCanadian:, @ CommanderWaterford:: this discussion should be closed as keep. User:Cbl62 and I made substantive keep arguments that were not "vague waves" at policy. Paul McDonald and Ortizesp tersely endorsed those arguments as there really wasn't much more to say. User talk:Fram's delete vote is based largely on two false premises: 1) the "connection" (or alleged lack there off), which has been clearly demonstrated by the sources and 2) the claim that "many other head coaches from this period" are not notable—it's rather rare that we've been have been unable to show notability for a college football head coach of any time period. User:SportingFlyer, who nominated this article for deletion, has stated that he no longer supports deleting it. SportingFlyer, perhaps, you'd like to withdraw the nomination? Jweiss11 ( talk) 15:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @ Jweiss11: I don't understand the relist and hopefully someone will just close this as keep. My own personal preference would still be a redirect - I find WP:GNG marginal, I don't think he'd be notable if he hadn't captained F&M, which I'm not sure is notable regardless - but given the consensus, the improvement, and the fact my motivation for the AfD was being unable to clear the notability tag on my own, this should probably just be closed as keep already. My only request at this point is that we take care of the prose in the article stating he was the "head coach" as I've only seen him listed as captain, either by rewriting/explaining or citing a more contemporary article. SportingFlyer T· C 15:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @
SportingFlyer:: Griffith is listed as a head coach in this
1951 article and
here on the Franklin & Marshall website. That being said, some investigation in the status of all of F&M's captains / head coaches prior to
Alfred E. Bull in 1896 warrants some more investigation.
Jweiss11 (
talk)
16:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @ Jweiss11: I actually like that 1951 source, I'll use it to clean up the article. SportingFlyer T· C 16:58, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @
SportingFlyer:: Griffith is listed as a head coach in this
1951 article and
here on the Franklin & Marshall website. That being said, some investigation in the status of all of F&M's captains / head coaches prior to
Alfred E. Bull in 1896 warrants some more investigation.
Jweiss11 (
talk)
16:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Meets GNG based on the sources found by Jweiss11 and Cbl62. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 22:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. czar 03:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- B. Griffith ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Noticed this because this was tagged for sports notability with only a first initial, which was a red flag, but my research shows that he was not the head coach, but rather the team captain and quarterback: [1]. A Griffith was the left end in 1890 as well [2].
While we tend to keep head coaching articles for passing WP:GNG, this article both fails WP:GNG and appears to be based on an incorrect premise that he was the head coach and not the team captain. My assumption is that these were effectively the same thing at the time, but I don't think this is eligible for a stand-alone article: I'd suggest merging and/or redirecting the information, probably to the list of Franklin & Marshall coaches in the template, or to the football program generally. SportingFlyer T· C 22:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer T· C 22:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer T· C 22:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say first validate the information and then decide. If it can't be validated, we have our answer.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 23:49, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Looks like our man here is Bruce Griffith (1867–1956). See
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76858279/evening-eagle/,
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76858279/evening-eagle/, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76858230/obituary-for-bruce-griffith-aged-88/, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/23809993/bruce-griffith. Jweiss11 ( talk) 00:30, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
- This makes sense! I found a Bruce Griffith in my search, but he was referenced in the context of a fraternity, not in a football sense, so I didn't list it here. SportingFlyer T· C 14:35, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 04:53, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. In the sources given above, none so far that I can see make the connection between this B. Griffith and the Bruce Griffith from Findagrave and the Evening Eagle. Perhaps it's in the first page of the latter article, as that one isn't given above (by accident I suppose). Even so, it doesn't look as if he was a notable headcoach, just like many other head coaches from this period. Fram ( talk) 15:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep I've started to expand there article. Found another 1931 feature article that solidifies the Bruce Griffith, postmaster of Wichita, as the member of the Franklin & Marshall football team circa 1890. Between Griffith's college football exploits, work as a clergyman, military service, and civil service, I think he passes GNG, much like his F&M teammate and predecessor as captain, William Mann Irvine. It's unclear exactly whether Griffith was head coach or just captain of the F&M team in 1891 and 1892. Current day records on the F&M website credit him as both captain in 1892 and coach in 1891 and 1892; see https://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-footbl/Career_Stats/yearandcoach and https://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-footbl/Career_Stats/captains. Jweiss11 ( talk) 01:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- This 1951 article sheds some light on F&M early captains doubling as coaches. Jweiss11 ( talk) 03:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep but not as a coach. The historical record (including this, this, this, and this) does not IMO support the assertion that Griffith was a "head coach." To the contrary, it shows that he was a student, player, and team captain during the 1891 and 1892 seasons. Many colleges (even major ones) did not have head coaches in the early 1890s, and team captains were the de facto team leaders. But captaincy is not the same as "head coach." I have encountered this situation before where college sports information departments, reporters, and Wikipedia editors, operating many decades after the fact, retroactively try to fill vacant "head coach" slots by inserting the names of the team captains. While referring to him as a head coach is not IMO historically accurate, Griffith does pass the GNG bar based on the coverage cited above and in the article (see also here and here). Cbl62 ( talk) 13:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- May I ask what your search terms were? I only found a small number of results, and none directly listing him as "Bruce Griffith." I did only limit it to the years in which he played, though, thinking about it. Also, the article's been well improved and I no longer support deleting it, but it should be more football-orientated. SportingFlyer T· C 13:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- I used griffith “Bruce griffith” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbl62 ( talk • contribs) 16:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep and cleanup/edit.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 19:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep passes GNG.-- Ortizesp ( talk) 14:11, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: While the keep !votes seem to have the headcount, some of them are just vague waves at policy. Further discussion regarding the sources found and their applicability to passing GNG would be warranted.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 00:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: I agree on RandomCanadians previous argument for relisting, since then no new votes so give it another round.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CommanderWaterford ( talk) 14:34, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@ RandomCanadian:, @ CommanderWaterford:: this discussion should be closed as keep. User:Cbl62 and I made substantive keep arguments that were not "vague waves" at policy. Paul McDonald and Ortizesp tersely endorsed those arguments as there really wasn't much more to say. User talk:Fram's delete vote is based largely on two false premises: 1) the "connection" (or alleged lack there off), which has been clearly demonstrated by the sources and 2) the claim that "many other head coaches from this period" are not notable—it's rather rare that we've been have been unable to show notability for a college football head coach of any time period. User:SportingFlyer, who nominated this article for deletion, has stated that he no longer supports deleting it. SportingFlyer, perhaps, you'd like to withdraw the nomination? Jweiss11 ( talk) 15:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @ Jweiss11: I don't understand the relist and hopefully someone will just close this as keep. My own personal preference would still be a redirect - I find WP:GNG marginal, I don't think he'd be notable if he hadn't captained F&M, which I'm not sure is notable regardless - but given the consensus, the improvement, and the fact my motivation for the AfD was being unable to clear the notability tag on my own, this should probably just be closed as keep already. My only request at this point is that we take care of the prose in the article stating he was the "head coach" as I've only seen him listed as captain, either by rewriting/explaining or citing a more contemporary article. SportingFlyer T· C 15:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @
SportingFlyer:: Griffith is listed as a head coach in this
1951 article and
here on the Franklin & Marshall website. That being said, some investigation in the status of all of F&M's captains / head coaches prior to
Alfred E. Bull in 1896 warrants some more investigation.
Jweiss11 (
talk)
16:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @ Jweiss11: I actually like that 1951 source, I'll use it to clean up the article. SportingFlyer T· C 16:58, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- @
SportingFlyer:: Griffith is listed as a head coach in this
1951 article and
here on the Franklin & Marshall website. That being said, some investigation in the status of all of F&M's captains / head coaches prior to
Alfred E. Bull in 1896 warrants some more investigation.
Jweiss11 (
talk)
16:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Meets GNG based on the sources found by Jweiss11 and Cbl62. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 22:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.