Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence
AfDs for this article:
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- Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
All the problems from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (2nd nomination) remain. These sources are fringe and mostly unreliable even for basic factual claims, WP:SYNTH is rife, and the conclusions of fringe sources are being misrepresented as mainstream. Grayfell ( talk) 19:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 20:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a way to compare this to the previously deleted articles? I'm curious to see what has changed to allow this article to continue to be reintroduced. Bluethricecreamman ( talk) 00:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I vote Merge into IQ and race
- Also, this article reads like multiple POV-forks in each section. Portions of it seem racist to imply that Jewish people are significantly smarter than anybody else, while others talk about the backlash to a single study. The genetics portion implying intelligence is also racist.
- I think I would change my vote if there was more information about this put in besides that one study. Some thoughts:
- Various sociologists in the 80s/90s suggested that the unique background/talmudic studies of some Jewish peoples makes them effective scholars. There were some sociologists who suggested that, as well as Malcolm Gladwell. Not sure exactly if thats true, there is likely a fair bit of back and forth on that as well as a possibly controversial opinion too.
- It could be possible to include information about Model Minority myth in this article.
- Agree large portions of article are WP:SYNTH including the humblebrag about the representation of Jewish people in various roles.
- Bluethricecreamman ( talk) 00:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Threw some more sourcing at it. Honestly, still think it should be merged into another appropriate article tho.
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's better, but I don't think that's enough. Citing Lynn as though his garbage studies mean anything, even with qualifications, is still a
WP:PROFRINGE issue. As I said back in 2020, if the article only exists to explain why a debunked study is
not even wrong, then is should be rewritten to serve that goal.
Grayfell (
talk)
01:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- yeah, agreed.
- Sidenote, why specifically ashkenazi jewish intelligence, instead of broader jewish intelligence? This article's subject is so strange to me.
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
02:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- (a) Sephardim are not, apparently, reported to score as high; (b) seems sensible insofar as "Jewish intelligence" probably makes people think of the Mosad instead, IDK. Biohistorian15 ( talk) 07:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's better, but I don't think that's enough. Citing Lynn as though his garbage studies mean anything, even with qualifications, is still a
WP:PROFRINGE issue. As I said back in 2020, if the article only exists to explain why a debunked study is
not even wrong, then is should be rewritten to serve that goal.
Grayfell (
talk)
01:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or merge. Adding enough context to satisfy the requirements of WP:FRINGE would make the article a WP:REDUNDANTFORK of Race and intelligence, but with a shallower pool of sources. The few bits that are specific to Ashkenazi people or Jewish people – Cochran's ideas, Talmud study, the role perceptions of intelligence might play in overall views toward Jewish people – are too scattered to make "Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence" a coherent topic for an encyclopedia article. Jruderman ( talk) 04:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep There is a vast body of literature that discusses the special role of jewry as a (proto-)object of racism; there also is a large body of research (Cochrane, Glad...) concerning purported (self-)selection trends in historical Jewish populations; there is also a vast body of literature concerning their psychometrics.
Biohistorian15 (
talk)
07:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Furthermore, massive removals of text on the same day this AFD was opened [1] suggest either possible tag teaming or, at least, a problematic attitude on the part of Bluethricecreamman and Grayfell. (I will archive this page privately to document such practices in any case). Biohistorian15 ( talk) 07:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or merge. I agree with Jruderman here. So much more context is needed for this page to meet the requirements of fringe. Given how frequently this page comes up, I think we should consider salting the page or creating a redirect and locking edits for non-admin.
Mason (
talk)
14:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- One question: how would it work if, for example, I myself eventually had an article that met a reasonable person's requirements for NPOV, notability etc. (Say in Draft space); now, don't tell me, the Wikigods all need to agree before it'd be reinstated? Biohistorian15 ( talk) 14:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
All the problems from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence (2nd nomination) remain. These sources are fringe and mostly unreliable even for basic factual claims, WP:SYNTH is rife, and the conclusions of fringe sources are being misrepresented as mainstream. Grayfell ( talk) 19:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 20:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a way to compare this to the previously deleted articles? I'm curious to see what has changed to allow this article to continue to be reintroduced. Bluethricecreamman ( talk) 00:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I vote Merge into IQ and race
- Also, this article reads like multiple POV-forks in each section. Portions of it seem racist to imply that Jewish people are significantly smarter than anybody else, while others talk about the backlash to a single study. The genetics portion implying intelligence is also racist.
- I think I would change my vote if there was more information about this put in besides that one study. Some thoughts:
- Various sociologists in the 80s/90s suggested that the unique background/talmudic studies of some Jewish peoples makes them effective scholars. There were some sociologists who suggested that, as well as Malcolm Gladwell. Not sure exactly if thats true, there is likely a fair bit of back and forth on that as well as a possibly controversial opinion too.
- It could be possible to include information about Model Minority myth in this article.
- Agree large portions of article are WP:SYNTH including the humblebrag about the representation of Jewish people in various roles.
- Bluethricecreamman ( talk) 00:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Threw some more sourcing at it. Honestly, still think it should be merged into another appropriate article tho.
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's better, but I don't think that's enough. Citing Lynn as though his garbage studies mean anything, even with qualifications, is still a
WP:PROFRINGE issue. As I said back in 2020, if the article only exists to explain why a debunked study is
not even wrong, then is should be rewritten to serve that goal.
Grayfell (
talk)
01:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- yeah, agreed.
- Sidenote, why specifically ashkenazi jewish intelligence, instead of broader jewish intelligence? This article's subject is so strange to me.
Bluethricecreamman (
talk)
02:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- (a) Sephardim are not, apparently, reported to score as high; (b) seems sensible insofar as "Jewish intelligence" probably makes people think of the Mosad instead, IDK. Biohistorian15 ( talk) 07:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's better, but I don't think that's enough. Citing Lynn as though his garbage studies mean anything, even with qualifications, is still a
WP:PROFRINGE issue. As I said back in 2020, if the article only exists to explain why a debunked study is
not even wrong, then is should be rewritten to serve that goal.
Grayfell (
talk)
01:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or merge. Adding enough context to satisfy the requirements of WP:FRINGE would make the article a WP:REDUNDANTFORK of Race and intelligence, but with a shallower pool of sources. The few bits that are specific to Ashkenazi people or Jewish people – Cochran's ideas, Talmud study, the role perceptions of intelligence might play in overall views toward Jewish people – are too scattered to make "Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence" a coherent topic for an encyclopedia article. Jruderman ( talk) 04:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep There is a vast body of literature that discusses the special role of jewry as a (proto-)object of racism; there also is a large body of research (Cochrane, Glad...) concerning purported (self-)selection trends in historical Jewish populations; there is also a vast body of literature concerning their psychometrics.
Biohistorian15 (
talk)
07:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Furthermore, massive removals of text on the same day this AFD was opened [1] suggest either possible tag teaming or, at least, a problematic attitude on the part of Bluethricecreamman and Grayfell. (I will archive this page privately to document such practices in any case). Biohistorian15 ( talk) 07:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or merge. I agree with Jruderman here. So much more context is needed for this page to meet the requirements of fringe. Given how frequently this page comes up, I think we should consider salting the page or creating a redirect and locking edits for non-admin.
Mason (
talk)
14:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- One question: how would it work if, for example, I myself eventually had an article that met a reasonable person's requirements for NPOV, notability etc. (Say in Draft space); now, don't tell me, the Wikigods all need to agree before it'd be reinstated? Biohistorian15 ( talk) 14:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)