The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect (NAC) There is strong consensus here that a stand-alone page is unnecessary Vanamonde93 ( talk) 07:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC) reply

Aleksandra Dranka

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Aleksandra Dranka (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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The sources here don't warrant a separate article for this biography. Generally, the oldest person in a nation, absent other reasons for notability, isn't sufficient for a separate article per WP:NOPAGE. The relevant content here should be merged to List of Polish supercentenarians which needs cleanup itself. Ricky81682 ( talk) 11:04, 18 November 2015 (UTC) reply

• Delete Born, emigrated, worked, survived a shooting, children, died. EEng ( talk) 14:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC) reply

Yes I was born, I emigrated, I work, I was almost shot, I dont have any children and I am not dead yet. Petervermaelen ( talk) 21:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC) reply

• Restore redirect to List of Polish supercentenarians. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:46, 18 November 2015 (UTC) reply
• Restore redirect to List of Polish supercentenarians seems the best way to go. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 09:22, 19 November 2015 (UTC) reply
• Restore redirect to List of Polish supercentenarians. Subject does not satisfy the general notability guidelines with significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources per WP:GNG. If members of WikiProject Oldest Persons insist on continuing to create stubs for objectively non-notable persons in the absence of significant coverage, on the sole basis of age or status as the "oldest person in geographic area X, then I expect this is headed for a Wikipedia-wide RfC that will clarify and tighten the notability guidelines with respect to such claims. There is absolutely no reason why most of these persons cannot be noted as a one- or two-sentence entry in a "List of oldest persons in X" article, or "List of Xish supercentenarians" article. I also suggest that the redirect be protected to prevent re-creation of this article contrary to consensus. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 19:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC) reply

There's currently 11 sources cited on this article. How does that not amount to significant coverage? Given that such coverage quite often exists for people like this, then there's absolutely no reason NOT to create a standalone article. Not everyone holds the same opinion as you. -- Ollie231213 ( talk) 17:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC) reply

@ Ollie231213: There are no English language sources, but there are 11 linked to Polish newspapers, all of which I have read in machine translation via Google Translate (not grammatically perfect, but certainly good enough for AfD purposes). The coverage in most of them is either completely trivial or completely mundane per WP:ROUTINE. There are two articles which provide details of the subject's life beyond the "born, lived, died" basics, including --

1. the subject's mother lived a long time too (94), and enjoyed good health until she broke her hip;
2. the subject's brother lived to be 100;
3. the subject's family emigrated to the United States, but later returned to Poland;
4. someone purportedly tried to kidnap her as an infant by grabbing her, but the attempt failed on the spot;
5. she survived two world wars in Poland;
6. her father took her everywhere with him;
7. she learned to sew and still enjoys sewing;
8. she learned to dance, and sang in the church choir;
9. she loved three men and married one;
10. she made homemade wine and added it to her tea;
11. she charmed the border guards with her humor;
12. she and her family ate a lot of honey;
13. her cardiologist is surprised she's still alive;
14. she was seriously ill at 83, from a variety of ailments, but got better;
15. she received birthday greetings from the president and governor.

Help me, Ollie -- what part of any of this trivia is worthy of inclusion in a serious encyclopedia? Even the two longer articles are filled with these common details of her life. There is no noteworthy substance -- she led a completely un-noteworthy life. The only thing remotely noteworthy about this perfectly lovely old gal was her longevity, and, yes, sir, what noteworthy substance there is can be covered in one or two sentences in List of Polish supercentenarians. Most of these articles are perfect candidates for an entry on a list instead of a stand-alone article. That's the reality you face. If we were Britannica, World Book or any other serious encyclopedia, the editorial board would mock anyone who proposed a stand-alone article for this subject. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 19:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC) reply

*Comment In my humble opinion, the use of the word "subject" is inappropriate here. The matter is about a person who lived on the same planet and breathe the same air. Secondly, In the supercentenarian study, which is an independent branch of science, no information given on any supercentenarian is trivial and it can't be considered as such. One must not neglect any piece of information given on person's life. Because any detail of a supercentenarian's life is substantial and intrinsic, as it concerns the person individually and may have contributed to her/his longevity. That is why Aleksandra Dranka, as a notable person even among supercentenarians (longevity record-holder of a country and historically first person ever scientifically proven to have reached the supercentenarian status in her country of last residence. White Eaglet ( talk) 12:28, 24 November 2015 (UTC) User has been determined to be a sock puppet and has been blocked indefinitely. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 18:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep Is the only validated supercentenarian whom has died in Poland and therefore the oldest person ever to have lived in Poland with a validated lifespan. 930310 ( talk) 23:12, 21 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

Weak argument considering this information is already available in List of Polish supercentenarians. So a stand-alone article isn't needed. Restore Redirect. CommanderLinx ( talk) 00:09, 22 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

Then why not just do so for every single article about anything? If all articles can be redirected somewhere else then there isn't really any need for Wikipedia to be an encyclopedia. And as for Aleksandra Dranka, a redirect doesn't give the biographical details of the person's life. Longevity records are more than just records; the recordholders are also symbols, and their life stories are notable in the same way that the last WWI veterans life stories are notable. No one is saying that we need an article on every supercentenarian, but surely a type article on Poland's recordholder would be appropriate. 930310 ( talk) 10:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

*Strong Keep The article was nominated for deletion in the past and the outcome of the discussion was "keep". Now, the article has been expanded with the addition of new sources. Not only, Aleksandra Dranka was the oldest living person in Poland, but also, in the light of the current knowledge, she is the longevity record-holder of the country, as she is the only fully-verified supercentenarian whose last place of residence was Poland. Thus she has been recognized by both the President and the Prime Minister of Poland, as well as by the independent international scientific society which is the Gerontology Research Group, cooperating with the Guinness World Records. Having said that, I conclude that the notability of Aleksandra Dranka has been proven beyond reasonable doubt and any further attempts to undermine it, could be seen as signes of a negative bias towards the supercentenarian study and the study of extreme longevity. White Eaglet ( talk) 19:03, 22 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User has been determined to be a sock puppet and has been blocked indefinitely. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 18:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

Hard to believe she received "considerate media interest" when four of the five sources next to those words lead to the same website. I don't believe wishes from the president establish notability either since the source states every Polish resident over the age of 100 gets one. Lastly, there is nothing in the WP:GNG guidelines that state "having your age verified by the GRG makes you notable". CommanderLinx ( talk) 22:52, 22 November 2015 (UTC) reply

CommanderLinx, I have no idea what your nationality might be, but here in the United States senior citizens whose relatives request a birthday greeting for a parent or grandparent over the age of 90 from their U.S. Representative, U.S. Senator or the President will receive such a letter. Almost all federal and statewide elected officials have a correspondence staff with word-processor form letters and auto-pen signatures for generating this and other routine correspondence of a similar nature (but don't tell Grandma!). Hitting 90 has become so relatively common, that it's not even considered newsworthy enough to get a sentence in the local newspaper, and we now have literally thousands of seniors who are 100+. My maternal grandmother lived to be 104 (my other three grandparents all lived to be 90+), and my grandmother wasn't even among the five oldest in her assisted living facility. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 19:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep, there was already a nomination for deletion not so long ago on this same article. I see no need for another voting at this time. Petervermaelen ( talk) 19:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

This is the first time this article has been nominated. CommanderLinx ( talk) 22:52, 22 November 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep or Merge with List of Polish supercentenarians. Sources in the article indicate she meets WP:GNG. If not kept as a standalone, a small biography could be created on the Polish supercentenarians page. -- Ollie231213 ( talk) 17:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC) reply
• Merge to List of Polish supercentenarians. I do not see why age would make someone worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia, particularly given WP:NOTNEWS, WP:ONEEVENT and such. However, I do think that a list of oldest people is acceptable, and further, it should be expanded to provide short biographical notes. Therefore, my merge vote is not just a simple redirect, but I'd also expect to see the content of that article, including a picture, added there. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

@ Piotrus: Like List of Italian supercentenarians#Venere Pizzinato? -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 07:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

Will do, through I'd rather see them in a table format. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

Actually, the Italian page has both the table and the bio sections. If you squeeze the bio into the table, it will be unreadable, especially keeping in mind that not every table entry must have a bio sketch. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC) reply

*Comment Dear Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, I wish to inform that the fact of being the oldest verified person in the modern history of Poland not only makes Mrs. Aleksandra Dranka notable in respect of longevity study, but also it does make her a notable person for the history of Poland. One has to have the sensitivity to notice that. Therefore, I believe she deserves having a stand alone article. Moreover, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:ONEEVENT are not applicable in this matter, since the age of Mrs. Aleksandra Dranka has been a matter of the international study performed by Gerontology Research Group which ended with a success unprecedented in Polish history. Finally, reaching an extreme age can hardly be considered as "one event" which is emphasized by the fact that Aleksandra Dranka has been present in the Polish press for more than 7 years, independently from the scientific study that was conducted in order to prove the authenticity of her extreme age. Sincerely. White Eaglet ( talk) 11:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC) User has been determined to be a sock puppet and has been blocked indefinitely. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 18:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

We don't do that for the oldest person in any other country. Her biography could be shortened and placed at the bottom of the page, e.g. List of Italian supercentarians and others. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 11:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

::: Of course you do: [ Emma Morano] White Eaglet ( talk) 12:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC) User has been determined to be a sock puppet and has been blocked indefinitely. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 18:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC) ""Strong Keep"". Mrs. Dranka is the only validated supercentenarian who died in Poland. She has been the oldest living person in Poland: the oldest person in a great nation a Poland is! Strong Keep! by Belandi76 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belandi76 ( talk • contribs) 13:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic. *Comment Note, that the life and age of Mrs. Aleksandra Dranka has been a subject of a study conducted by Mr. Waclaw Jan Kroczek, the GRG correspondent for Poland, who published a paper entitled: "SUPERCENTENARIANS OF POLAND AND LITHUANIA. LONGEVITY ASPECTS AND FACTORS IN EUROPE" [ Link to the abstract] That paper was published in Polish-Lithuanian scientific journal "Studium Vilnense" its presentation on the XVIIIth International Conference on the SCIENCE AND QUALITY OF LIFE and Symposium VILNIUS REGION: PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE, which was held in Vilnius, Lithuania, on June 28-July 1, 2014. I added the corresponding source. That said, I am convinced that Aleksandra Dranka, being a part of an independent study on the scientific level, deserves a stand alone article. White Eaglet ( talk) 16:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC) User has been determined to be a sock puppet and has been blocked indefinitely. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 18:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply

• Keep or Merge As per Ollie231213. Bodgey5 (talk) 17:05, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply
• Redirect. Based on current article, I can see no particular grounds for WP:NOTABLE here. Inclusion in existing list should suffice. Support arguments made by Dirtlawyer1 upthread. Irondome ( talk) 20:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC) reply
• keep or merge. Satisfies WP:GNG. It does not matter that the overall life was mundane; as long as we have multiple coverage of her "sense of humor" or whatever in national news, it means she is nationally notable. Staszek Lem ( talk) 01:24, 26 November 2015 (UTC) reply
• delete Everyone's life is interesting, and so is Dranka's. Also, we care, and wonder, and worry, about our own mortality. So the death of a local Methuselah is quite likely to spur a relatively *short burst of news*. That does not amount to (wp-)notability. If the list exists than a redirect won't hurt, but is not really needed either as the search engine will get there anyway. - Nabla ( talk) 14:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.