- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 23:48, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Aeternae
- Aeternae ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable, and perhaps non-existent. Have found entry in only one similar "encyclopedia" [1], and one may be derivative of the other. The word Aeternae is a Latin adjective (see Aeternitas), as search results will reflect, but these creatures are associated with Alexander the Great, whose early legends appear in Greek. In what texts do these supposed creatures appear? Do they come from medieval narratives, or are they a non-notable invention of a fiction writer? If there are no other sources, the article comes perilously close to plagiarizing a single encyclopedia. I searched "Aeternae Alexander India" on JSTOR and Google Books, and was unable to find anything. Cynwolfe ( talk) 14:20, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 October 7. — cyberbot I NotifyOnline 14:50, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Delete - per nom. Unable to determine notability. { C A S U K I T E T} 15:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 22:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - note that the fact the name is in Latin does not mean anything. Lots of material in the Alexander romance (which would be the source for these creatures, if anything) is written in Latin. -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 23:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
-
This is the reference from the Carol Rose Encyclopedia. I could check this book tomorrow, but I assume the reference is correct. So there are two legitimate editions mentioning it. As for the one by these two,
John and Caitlin Matthews, I'm not so sure: They seem like they might be a reliable source for this sort of subject matter; I don't know. --
Atethnekos (
Discussion,
Contributions) 23:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- I saw both those, but they are so similar it seems that one may be derived from the other. If the Aeternae actually exist somewhere in Alexander narratives, why don't they turn up in searches? The oddity of the Latin name could indicate that the name has been misunderstood. Perhaps there was a Greek name that resembled the Latin word, the familiarity of which led one of these two sources to transcribe it incorrectly. That would explain why we can't find other sources. The two encyclopedia entries are insufficient to establish notability: one may simply be drawing on the other, and neither one provides any leads (such as mentioning primary sources) that would allow us to check for other spellings. Carol Rose's encyclopedia would be a sounder source than the Matthews', but again the question is why we can't find any other evidence for the existence of this mythical people. I'm guessing it's because the spelling of the name is in error, but unless we can determine other spellings, notability remains insufficient. Cynwolfe ( talk) 12:31, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe I will go look up the MacMillan source then. Tomrrow (promise? I better not). -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 01:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
-
This is the reference from the Carol Rose Encyclopedia. I could check this book tomorrow, but I assume the reference is correct. So there are two legitimate editions mentioning it. As for the one by these two,
John and Caitlin Matthews, I'm not so sure: They seem like they might be a reliable source for this sort of subject matter; I don't know. --
Atethnekos (
Discussion,
Contributions) 23:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 04:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- Weak keep? These appear in a lot of mythical creature compilations of dubious scholarship, but I'm struggling to determine whether there's any basis for them in antiquity. Their general location (northern India) and their horn(s) are about the only consistent features; not all references make mention of Alexander the Great, and depictions are divided about whether the aeternae are vaguely humanoid or bestial. Oberon Zell-Ravenheart (not that I'd consider him a qualified expert in this field) included them in A Wizard's Bestiary (p. 15) as the latter, suggesting it may be a mythologized Siberian ibex (naturally providing no sourcing for such claims). It's my suspicion that all these recent sources are actually derived from the 1971 Barber and Riches book, which is somewhat out of Barber's area of topical expertise (Arthurian legend), but at least has a legitimate historian attached to it -- and which, sadly, I don't seem to have rapid access to. Squeamish Ossifrage ( talk) 14:20, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 01:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- Keep and consider merging to appropriate target covering the campaign or similar subjects. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 00:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have many of the possible sources at hand, but Richard Stoneman's Everyman Legends of Alexander the Great includes a translation of "Alexander's Letter to Aristotle", containing the passage
From there we followed the direction of the east wind until we came upon some wild beasts. They had bones projecting from the tops of their heads like sharp jagged swords. They struck many of our soldiers with these and pierced their shields. The soldiers killed as many as 8,450 of them.
- No mention of the name Aeternae. I'm inclined to say weak delete unless someone can come up with an explicit mention of this "race" in some actual ancient or medieval work—or at least something better than pop encyclopedias of legendary beings. Does anyone have access to an edition of the Alexander Romance? Deor ( talk) 13:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 23:48, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Aeternae
- Aeternae ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable, and perhaps non-existent. Have found entry in only one similar "encyclopedia" [1], and one may be derivative of the other. The word Aeternae is a Latin adjective (see Aeternitas), as search results will reflect, but these creatures are associated with Alexander the Great, whose early legends appear in Greek. In what texts do these supposed creatures appear? Do they come from medieval narratives, or are they a non-notable invention of a fiction writer? If there are no other sources, the article comes perilously close to plagiarizing a single encyclopedia. I searched "Aeternae Alexander India" on JSTOR and Google Books, and was unable to find anything. Cynwolfe ( talk) 14:20, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013 October 7. — cyberbot I NotifyOnline 14:50, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Delete - per nom. Unable to determine notability. { C A S U K I T E T} 15:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 22:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - note that the fact the name is in Latin does not mean anything. Lots of material in the Alexander romance (which would be the source for these creatures, if anything) is written in Latin. -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 23:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
-
This is the reference from the Carol Rose Encyclopedia. I could check this book tomorrow, but I assume the reference is correct. So there are two legitimate editions mentioning it. As for the one by these two,
John and Caitlin Matthews, I'm not so sure: They seem like they might be a reliable source for this sort of subject matter; I don't know. --
Atethnekos (
Discussion,
Contributions) 23:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- I saw both those, but they are so similar it seems that one may be derived from the other. If the Aeternae actually exist somewhere in Alexander narratives, why don't they turn up in searches? The oddity of the Latin name could indicate that the name has been misunderstood. Perhaps there was a Greek name that resembled the Latin word, the familiarity of which led one of these two sources to transcribe it incorrectly. That would explain why we can't find other sources. The two encyclopedia entries are insufficient to establish notability: one may simply be drawing on the other, and neither one provides any leads (such as mentioning primary sources) that would allow us to check for other spellings. Carol Rose's encyclopedia would be a sounder source than the Matthews', but again the question is why we can't find any other evidence for the existence of this mythical people. I'm guessing it's because the spelling of the name is in error, but unless we can determine other spellings, notability remains insufficient. Cynwolfe ( talk) 12:31, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe I will go look up the MacMillan source then. Tomrrow (promise? I better not). -- Atethnekos ( Discussion, Contributions) 01:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
-
This is the reference from the Carol Rose Encyclopedia. I could check this book tomorrow, but I assume the reference is correct. So there are two legitimate editions mentioning it. As for the one by these two,
John and Caitlin Matthews, I'm not so sure: They seem like they might be a reliable source for this sort of subject matter; I don't know. --
Atethnekos (
Discussion,
Contributions) 23:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 04:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- Weak keep? These appear in a lot of mythical creature compilations of dubious scholarship, but I'm struggling to determine whether there's any basis for them in antiquity. Their general location (northern India) and their horn(s) are about the only consistent features; not all references make mention of Alexander the Great, and depictions are divided about whether the aeternae are vaguely humanoid or bestial. Oberon Zell-Ravenheart (not that I'd consider him a qualified expert in this field) included them in A Wizard's Bestiary (p. 15) as the latter, suggesting it may be a mythologized Siberian ibex (naturally providing no sourcing for such claims). It's my suspicion that all these recent sources are actually derived from the 1971 Barber and Riches book, which is somewhat out of Barber's area of topical expertise (Arthurian legend), but at least has a legitimate historian attached to it -- and which, sadly, I don't seem to have rapid access to. Squeamish Ossifrage ( talk) 14:20, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 01:17, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- Keep and consider merging to appropriate target covering the campaign or similar subjects. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 00:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have many of the possible sources at hand, but Richard Stoneman's Everyman Legends of Alexander the Great includes a translation of "Alexander's Letter to Aristotle", containing the passage
From there we followed the direction of the east wind until we came upon some wild beasts. They had bones projecting from the tops of their heads like sharp jagged swords. They struck many of our soldiers with these and pierced their shields. The soldiers killed as many as 8,450 of them.
- No mention of the name Aeternae. I'm inclined to say weak delete unless someone can come up with an explicit mention of this "race" in some actual ancient or medieval work—or at least something better than pop encyclopedias of legendary beings. Does anyone have access to an edition of the Alexander Romance? Deor ( talk) 13:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.