- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The keep arguments are not just in the numerical minority, but also less convincing overall, and in one case, from a user with limited history. On the other hand, User:StraussInTheHouse's summary of the sources seems difficult to ignore. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- AJ Rafael ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. Created by an editor who appears to be a fangirl, with the reasoning "He's someone the Filipino community admires and looks up to"... and Mr. Rafael certainly seems to be an admirable man, but that's not a reason for having a Wikipedia article. The two best sources in the article are from Billboard and MTV – the Billboard one is for a "battle of the bands" contest run by the magazine (which he didn't win) and naturally there's a write-up of the final in Billboard [1], but I'm not convinced the contest was notable, seeing as nobody else outside the magazine covered it. The MTV interview is a blog post (archived here [2]), not a post from MTV staff. There's also a short interview from 2010 in his local paper [3]. You'll notice that these sources are from 2011 or before – in 2014 Mr. Rafael announced that he was winding down his music output and touring, because even with 100 million YouTube viewers, only 300 people came to his entire concert tour [4]. Since then, his appearances have been one-off performances [5], making moves into TV and film [6] or publicising videos on his YouTube channel [7]... but these are all passing mentions, not in-depth coverage. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:40, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. This is borderline notability; I can be persuaded either way. For now, the fact that his work has reached broadly across borders is notability enough for me. However, the size of the article is disproportionate with its reputation. I think it should be shorten to reflect its limited celebrity status. Caballero/Historiador ⎌ 20:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:29, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:29, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. I'm inclined to keep, as even if a subject may lose notability over time, that doesn't change the fact that it was once notable, and per WP:NTEMP, notability is not temporary. Therefore I don't think it's a strong argument that all sources are from 2011 or earlier. In 2011, there were sources that established him as notable enough, so the article was notable then and remains notable now.-- Manbemel ( talk) 15:04, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- @
Manbemel: I didn't think the sources from pre-2011 were particularly notable or reliable either, hence my nomination in the first place.
Richard3120 (
talk)
17:14, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think the MTV interview introduction gives notability enough, at least to doubt that the article deserves deletion. Per
WP:NEWSBLOG, it doesn't matter that it is in a blog form as long as it comes from a reliable independent publisher, as MTV is. When in doubt, I think "keep" is the best option.--
Manbemel (
talk)
18:31, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I respect your opinion. If it survives the AfD though, I think the article needs severe pruning. Richard3120 ( talk) 18:37, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think the MTV interview introduction gives notability enough, at least to doubt that the article deserves deletion. Per
WP:NEWSBLOG, it doesn't matter that it is in a blog form as long as it comes from a reliable independent publisher, as MTV is. When in doubt, I think "keep" is the best option.--
Manbemel (
talk)
18:31, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- @
Manbemel: I didn't think the sources from pre-2011 were particularly notable or reliable either, hence my nomination in the first place.
Richard3120 (
talk)
17:14, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: As of right now this is very close to a Keep, but I'd like the consensus to be a bit stronger before closing.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 01:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Relisting comment: As of right now this is very close to a Keep, but I'd like the consensus to be a bit stronger before closing.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 01:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Redirect to Red Roses (AJ Rafael album) (as the only relevant article). I've read through the disputed sources and I come down slightly on the other side, I don't think the sourcing is sufficient. It does only need a little more though to tip it over. Nosebagbear ( talk) 22:43, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry
Nosebagbear, I think the album article is even less notable than the artist, and therefore not a valid redirect target. I can't find any information on the record label "Thirty Seven Records" - it's either self-released or on a tiny non-notable local label. It has absolutely no reviews or information that I can find outside of Spotify and social media - the "AllMusic review" cited is in fact a user review, which means the article is totally unsourced (I was waiting for the result of this AfD to see whether I would redirect it or AfD it as well).
Richard3120 (
talk)
23:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- @
Richard3120: - Hi, I don't normally consider the notability of my redirect targets (esp if there's only one) so long as it's not currently being PRODed/AfDed. You are probably correct as to the target's notability. In my view it is marginally preferable to redirect it now, even if the target and redirection lapses after it is also deleted (if it is).
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- The album article has been speedily deleted, so the redirect idea is no longer an option. Richard3120 ( talk) 12:31, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @
Richard3120: - Hi, I don't normally consider the notability of my redirect targets (esp if there's only one) so long as it's not currently being PRODed/AfDed. You are probably correct as to the target's notability. In my view it is marginally preferable to redirect it now, even if the target and redirection lapses after it is also deleted (if it is).
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry
Nosebagbear, I think the album article is even less notable than the artist, and therefore not a valid redirect target. I can't find any information on the record label "Thirty Seven Records" - it's either self-released or on a tiny non-notable local label. It has absolutely no reviews or information that I can find outside of Spotify and social media - the "AllMusic review" cited is in fact a user review, which means the article is totally unsourced (I was waiting for the result of this AfD to see whether I would redirect it or AfD it as well).
Richard3120 (
talk)
23:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. Nowhere near enough coverage to satisfy WP:GNG and comes nowhere near to satisfying any criterion of WP:NMUSIC. I don't know what other people are seeing that convinces them he's notable. The album article should be speedy deleted as an A9 if this article is deleted. -- Michig ( talk) 09:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One last re-list, as a BLP
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Relisting comment: One last re-list, as a BLP
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. The "keep" opinions don't indicate which sources specifically, they think, establish notability - and I don't see any in the article that could do so. Sandstein 17:58, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - I'm not seeing sufficient media coverage to demonstrate notability. A simple Google search turns up little about him in reliable sources. Fails WP:GNG. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 20:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. Subject matter meets some of the criteria’s per WP:MUSICBIO. There are additional sources on the web with editorial controls about the said subject, specifically in the first link of simple web searches, it could be useful to perform quality improvements on the article. Best of Luck.
Is Nutin 09:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soltesh ( talk • contribs)
- @ Soltesh: which criteria of WP:MUSICBIO does the subject meet? As far as I can see, only criterion 1 might possibly be met, and even then it's doubtful - as the Billboard source is promoting its own talent competition, it's not independent, and everything else apart from the MTV interview is trivial mentions. Could you let us know what additional sources you have found? Richard3120 ( talk) 12:31, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @ Richard3120: per my check he also meets criterion 4 on this article the image which shows him performing at a sold out concert at Anaheim (even though the said source wasn’t centered around the concert) here [8] correct me if am wrong, though he stylishly passes that criterion, he seem to somehow meet the 10th criteria as he has also performed a live version of his song(s) for Coke Studio [9]. Also consider WP:ENTERTAINER as another alternative, the said subject meets criterion 2 of it. Good luck.
Is Nutin 13:34, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- I don't agree on criterion 4 of WP:MUSICBIO - the venue only has a capacity of 250, I don't think performing to 250 people in your home town is particularly notable, artists do that all the time all over the world. His fan base doesn't seem particularly large to me to pass WP:ENTERTAINER either. However, you are right that he has performed a duet on a Filipino TV show, and that counts in his favour. Richard3120 ( talk) 14:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- An image showing someone playing to a crowd of a couple of hundred people at a local gig isn't anywhere near enough to indicate that inclusion in an encyclopedia is warranted. -- Michig ( talk) 19:14, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @ Richard3120: Thanks for confirming. @ Michig:, I understand your opinion about the the said subject, however; systemic bias is a bug, not a feature, AJ has few sources which warrants merit and they where written in unbiased form.
Is Nutin 14:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. There is just not enough indication of notability, or in depth meaningful coverage from independent sources. Curdle ( talk) 12:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- @ Curdle:, I did highlighted few citations certifying AJ for certain criterion’s per WP:MUSICBIO, but if you think he still fails it, basic standards of WP:ENTERTAINER should be used to ultimately determine notability.
Is Nutin 14:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete the sources provided simply don't meet the depth and independence needed for WP:MUSICBIO.
Source assessment table:
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| https://www.letssingit.com/a.j.-rafael-t9t47 | 
|
|
Just a database entry.
|
✘ No |
| https://myspace.com/ajrafael |
|
|
WP:YAMB
|
✘ No |
| https://www.youtube.com/user/ilajil |
|
|
WP:SPS
|
✘ No |
| https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/472632/billboard-battle-of-the-bands-2011-main-page |
|
|
Passing mention.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGpsgq9lKqY |
|
|
|
✘ No |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
- All the other sources are deadlinks and no archives contain their contents.
- Therefore, delete.
- SITH (talk) 13:52, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The keep arguments are not just in the numerical minority, but also less convincing overall, and in one case, from a user with limited history. On the other hand, User:StraussInTheHouse's summary of the sources seems difficult to ignore. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- AJ Rafael ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. Created by an editor who appears to be a fangirl, with the reasoning "He's someone the Filipino community admires and looks up to"... and Mr. Rafael certainly seems to be an admirable man, but that's not a reason for having a Wikipedia article. The two best sources in the article are from Billboard and MTV – the Billboard one is for a "battle of the bands" contest run by the magazine (which he didn't win) and naturally there's a write-up of the final in Billboard [1], but I'm not convinced the contest was notable, seeing as nobody else outside the magazine covered it. The MTV interview is a blog post (archived here [2]), not a post from MTV staff. There's also a short interview from 2010 in his local paper [3]. You'll notice that these sources are from 2011 or before – in 2014 Mr. Rafael announced that he was winding down his music output and touring, because even with 100 million YouTube viewers, only 300 people came to his entire concert tour [4]. Since then, his appearances have been one-off performances [5], making moves into TV and film [6] or publicising videos on his YouTube channel [7]... but these are all passing mentions, not in-depth coverage. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:40, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 ( talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. This is borderline notability; I can be persuaded either way. For now, the fact that his work has reached broadly across borders is notability enough for me. However, the size of the article is disproportionate with its reputation. I think it should be shorten to reflect its limited celebrity status. Caballero/Historiador ⎌ 20:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:29, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:29, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. I'm inclined to keep, as even if a subject may lose notability over time, that doesn't change the fact that it was once notable, and per WP:NTEMP, notability is not temporary. Therefore I don't think it's a strong argument that all sources are from 2011 or earlier. In 2011, there were sources that established him as notable enough, so the article was notable then and remains notable now.-- Manbemel ( talk) 15:04, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- @
Manbemel: I didn't think the sources from pre-2011 were particularly notable or reliable either, hence my nomination in the first place.
Richard3120 (
talk)
17:14, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think the MTV interview introduction gives notability enough, at least to doubt that the article deserves deletion. Per
WP:NEWSBLOG, it doesn't matter that it is in a blog form as long as it comes from a reliable independent publisher, as MTV is. When in doubt, I think "keep" is the best option.--
Manbemel (
talk)
18:31, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I respect your opinion. If it survives the AfD though, I think the article needs severe pruning. Richard3120 ( talk) 18:37, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- I think the MTV interview introduction gives notability enough, at least to doubt that the article deserves deletion. Per
WP:NEWSBLOG, it doesn't matter that it is in a blog form as long as it comes from a reliable independent publisher, as MTV is. When in doubt, I think "keep" is the best option.--
Manbemel (
talk)
18:31, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- @
Manbemel: I didn't think the sources from pre-2011 were particularly notable or reliable either, hence my nomination in the first place.
Richard3120 (
talk)
17:14, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: As of right now this is very close to a Keep, but I'd like the consensus to be a bit stronger before closing.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 01:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Relisting comment: As of right now this is very close to a Keep, but I'd like the consensus to be a bit stronger before closing.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem ( talk) 01:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Redirect to Red Roses (AJ Rafael album) (as the only relevant article). I've read through the disputed sources and I come down slightly on the other side, I don't think the sourcing is sufficient. It does only need a little more though to tip it over. Nosebagbear ( talk) 22:43, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry
Nosebagbear, I think the album article is even less notable than the artist, and therefore not a valid redirect target. I can't find any information on the record label "Thirty Seven Records" - it's either self-released or on a tiny non-notable local label. It has absolutely no reviews or information that I can find outside of Spotify and social media - the "AllMusic review" cited is in fact a user review, which means the article is totally unsourced (I was waiting for the result of this AfD to see whether I would redirect it or AfD it as well).
Richard3120 (
talk)
23:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- @
Richard3120: - Hi, I don't normally consider the notability of my redirect targets (esp if there's only one) so long as it's not currently being PRODed/AfDed. You are probably correct as to the target's notability. In my view it is marginally preferable to redirect it now, even if the target and redirection lapses after it is also deleted (if it is).
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- The album article has been speedily deleted, so the redirect idea is no longer an option. Richard3120 ( talk) 12:31, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @
Richard3120: - Hi, I don't normally consider the notability of my redirect targets (esp if there's only one) so long as it's not currently being PRODed/AfDed. You are probably correct as to the target's notability. In my view it is marginally preferable to redirect it now, even if the target and redirection lapses after it is also deleted (if it is).
Nosebagbear (
talk)
00:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry
Nosebagbear, I think the album article is even less notable than the artist, and therefore not a valid redirect target. I can't find any information on the record label "Thirty Seven Records" - it's either self-released or on a tiny non-notable local label. It has absolutely no reviews or information that I can find outside of Spotify and social media - the "AllMusic review" cited is in fact a user review, which means the article is totally unsourced (I was waiting for the result of this AfD to see whether I would redirect it or AfD it as well).
Richard3120 (
talk)
23:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. Nowhere near enough coverage to satisfy WP:GNG and comes nowhere near to satisfying any criterion of WP:NMUSIC. I don't know what other people are seeing that convinces them he's notable. The album article should be speedy deleted as an A9 if this article is deleted. -- Michig ( talk) 09:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One last re-list, as a BLP
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Relisting comment: One last re-list, as a BLP
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. The "keep" opinions don't indicate which sources specifically, they think, establish notability - and I don't see any in the article that could do so. Sandstein 17:58, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete - I'm not seeing sufficient media coverage to demonstrate notability. A simple Google search turns up little about him in reliable sources. Fails WP:GNG. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 20:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. Subject matter meets some of the criteria’s per WP:MUSICBIO. There are additional sources on the web with editorial controls about the said subject, specifically in the first link of simple web searches, it could be useful to perform quality improvements on the article. Best of Luck.
Is Nutin 09:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soltesh ( talk • contribs)
- @ Soltesh: which criteria of WP:MUSICBIO does the subject meet? As far as I can see, only criterion 1 might possibly be met, and even then it's doubtful - as the Billboard source is promoting its own talent competition, it's not independent, and everything else apart from the MTV interview is trivial mentions. Could you let us know what additional sources you have found? Richard3120 ( talk) 12:31, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @ Richard3120: per my check he also meets criterion 4 on this article the image which shows him performing at a sold out concert at Anaheim (even though the said source wasn’t centered around the concert) here [8] correct me if am wrong, though he stylishly passes that criterion, he seem to somehow meet the 10th criteria as he has also performed a live version of his song(s) for Coke Studio [9]. Also consider WP:ENTERTAINER as another alternative, the said subject meets criterion 2 of it. Good luck.
Is Nutin 13:34, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- I don't agree on criterion 4 of WP:MUSICBIO - the venue only has a capacity of 250, I don't think performing to 250 people in your home town is particularly notable, artists do that all the time all over the world. His fan base doesn't seem particularly large to me to pass WP:ENTERTAINER either. However, you are right that he has performed a duet on a Filipino TV show, and that counts in his favour. Richard3120 ( talk) 14:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- An image showing someone playing to a crowd of a couple of hundred people at a local gig isn't anywhere near enough to indicate that inclusion in an encyclopedia is warranted. -- Michig ( talk) 19:14, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- @ Richard3120: Thanks for confirming. @ Michig:, I understand your opinion about the the said subject, however; systemic bias is a bug, not a feature, AJ has few sources which warrants merit and they where written in unbiased form.
Is Nutin 14:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. There is just not enough indication of notability, or in depth meaningful coverage from independent sources. Curdle ( talk) 12:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- @ Curdle:, I did highlighted few citations certifying AJ for certain criterion’s per WP:MUSICBIO, but if you think he still fails it, basic standards of WP:ENTERTAINER should be used to ultimately determine notability.
Is Nutin 14:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Delete the sources provided simply don't meet the depth and independence needed for WP:MUSICBIO.
Source assessment table:
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| https://www.letssingit.com/a.j.-rafael-t9t47 |
|
|
Just a database entry.
|
✘ No |
| https://myspace.com/ajrafael |
|
|
WP:YAMB
|
✘ No |
| https://www.youtube.com/user/ilajil |
|
|
WP:SPS
|
✘ No |
| https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/472632/billboard-battle-of-the-bands-2011-main-page |
|
|
Passing mention.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGpsgq9lKqY |
|
|
|
✘ No |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
- All the other sources are deadlinks and no archives contain their contents.
- Therefore, delete.
- SITH (talk) 13:52, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.