Welcome!
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Cbrown1023 00:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I find people tend to react to The Secret on one of two extremes — love the film or hate it. I like the middle. I think it produces real and meaningful value for the viewer—it did for me. I also think it is less than honest in its methods. Furthermore, I firmly believe there is no justification for the weakness in honesty. I don't see evil intent in the methods, just creative people getting carried away with what they are doing. WikiLen 08:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I am reminded of old radios with analog tuning knobs. In tuning to my favorite station, I would turn the knob to the left and then to the right, seeking the center point where the static becomes silent. I submit this:
The joys (static?) of tuning for NPOV... — WikiLen 12:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a remake of The Secret (2006 film), it's a remake of Himitsu. Check here for what links to it, which is currently just one of the cast (which given it stars David Duchovny is just slack IMNSHO—no, I fixed that, someone did something really stupid on his page—and I had pointed Laurence Leboeuf at the wrong one), and check IMDb for more information. If you would like to make up the stub for it, be my guest; otherwise I might get to it when I have a moment. HTH HAND — Phil | Talk 18:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your note. The sum of No Original Research policy is that all content must be derived from some other place -- in other words, whatever is in an article should be citable to a published or documented source. The material in Responsibility assumption does not provide the specific sources of its assertions. It's particularly important in philosophical-type articles, as anyone can write up a claim of what they believe to be true. Regards, -- Leflyman Talk 03:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Bob Proctor, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.
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Metropolitan90 04:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Herbanreleaf,
There is a list somewhere of the edits I have made where I have not been a "cheerleader for the film" as you say. Give me some time to find it. I will post it here. — WikiLen 21:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Note my section above, The Secret (2006 film) for a picture of my bias. — WikiLen 21:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
My comments that lacked civility were about the SNL piece that someone wanted to include. You first insisted that it was about Rhonda Byrne and not The Secret. Then when other users objected you said it was about the book, not the film. It looks like a yogic bend over backwards to censor another's contribution. Unless something specifically mentions the book and omits the film, it is applicable to both. Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The annoying thing about Wikipedia and even its policy of civility is that it stifles other people and promotes censorhip by the editors who are like the thought police. I don't understand why you get to edit out my sentence, but if I removed your silly section with the closing remarks, as someone once tried to do, I would get barked at by the WikiHounds. Not only do you arbitrarily pick and choose which quotes to delete, but you hypocritically post quotes such as the one that you sent me on responsibility (which, by the way, I found unintelligible) which are purely and admittedly your original research. Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This is why I think Wikipedia attracts control freaks who love to be editors due to a need to exert their arbitrary form of control, possibly related to a feeling of inadequacy in another area of their life, [graphic sexual comment deleted]. This is a classic example of Wikipedia censorship gone amok. I didn't realize that we must also be Puritanical. If you think that G-rated remark was a graphic sexual comment, I'd hate to see your reaction if I said something rated PG. Herbanreleaf 17:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC) Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, here is a great article on The Secret. I'll add the closing remark from this one to your section. http://www.slate.com/id/2165746/ Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
WikiLen, If you are responsible for the latest sections in The Secret (Film), which I assume you are, I think you did a good job. It's much better than before. Herbanreleaf 03:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
There is currently discussion aimed at developing policy on "relevance" at Wikipedia talk:Avoid trivia sections in articles#What is relevance?. -- Coppertwig 13:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Could you please re-visit your issues with the criticism of the Law of Attraction article? Specific examples would be really helpful. Tmtoulouse 18:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
As the article in question deals with a motion picture, you may wish to try using the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Peer review|Films WikiProject peer review. Topic-specific peer reviews often generate greater responses that general requests due to reviewer's ability to focus on areas matching their interests. -- Allen3 talk 01:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Both drafts are rather lengthy, I'll have to take some time later to read through them. However, could you state, briefly, what you are trying to accomplish here that isn't covered by existing guidelines? >Radiant< 08:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your most excellent comments on the Bleep OR dispute! Really good observations! In case you aren't watching the bleep sandbox, there was a new reference presented from what looks to be a good source for referencing some of the criticisms of the movie: Australian Broadcasting Corp. article on Bleep. Check it out and let me know what you think. Dreadstar † 19:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Edgarde, I am missing something on your critique of this below in my REL3 version for Relevancy. ( WikiLen)
The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines. A fact may be relevant but not notable. The circumference of the Moon is not notable but, although a minor detail, it is relevant for the article on the Moon.
This has nothing to do with the Wikipedia standard for notability. However, it is the sort of example often made (mistakenly) in discussions defining "trivia" — no one (other than in straw man arguments) thinks the moon's circumference is "trivia" and therefore should be excluded from Moon. Someone so confused they believe it may ... still hasn't learned anything by reading this far. ( Edgarde)
There is a straw poll being conducted on the Bleep OR issue. Your input is welcome. Dreadstar † 16:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Due to continued confusion around the scope of the Bleep OR straw poll, I’ve added a clarification note to say that the poll is primarily meant to see if everyone agrees that a majority of that content identified as unsourced or improperly sourced OR in the Bleep sandbox, is indeed OR. Please feel free to change your vote if necessary. Please post a message on my talk page if any of this is unclear. Thanks for your patience! Dreadstar † 17:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey, welcome to the Films WikiProject! We're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of films and film characters. If you haven't already, please add {{ User WikiProject Films}} to your user page.
A few features that you might find helpful:
There is a variety of interesting things to do within the project; you're free to participate however much—or little—you like:
If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! Nehrams2020 05:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Edgarde, I find you in violation of WP:FAITH and WP:CIVIL for this edit.
No idea what motivates this, but it seems highly counter-productive. I recall Father Goose calling this tendency "self-immolation".
I will be deleting the above from the talk page and I wanted to give you a heads up first. You may chose to delete it yourself — I encourage that. Nothing in your above statements serve to improve the article. You are expressing unflattering personal opinions about my editing behavior and sharing those with other editors from a position of respected, excellent editor. This is not the first incident — see also this "guru" comment. I have no idea what motivates this personal attack. It seems to abuse the position of respect you have garnered. I look forward to clearing this up and having your continued presence at the project page. I will take replies at your talk page. — WikiLen 02:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for seeking an outside opinion on this — I really dislike defending myself. I certainly am familiar with WP:NPA; I referred to comment on content, not on the contributor in Review A..
For what it's worth, I recognize that I have a problem with communicating politically, especially in a heterogenous environment with conflicting viewpoints. I actually feel like I've been holding my tongue, but I recognize that a lot of what I say probably hurts some people's feelings. It's something I have to work on, and Wikipedia is as good a place as any for me to practice.
Question: is there a way I could have communicated my concern about the tendencies in your proposals better? Could you recommend something?
I'll try to go lighter on matters of WP:RELEVANCE. I've already had my say (and then some) so at least in this case it should be much easier from here on out. / edg ☺ ★ 03:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Edgarde, I would be very grateful if you would take a shot at writing the lead paragraph for the WikiLen fork. Father Goose, with my agreement, edited it out. Maybe a lead paragraph is not needed but I doubt it and I feel incomplete without one. I ask for this favor both because you are the best at this and because collaboration can only help. Thanks for your participation in this project. — WikiLen 04:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to ask you to hold off on bringing wider attention to WP:REL for a few days more, while I try to address the problems still inherent in the "three questions" section. Certain editors are eager to interpret lack of comments by the broad community as rejection. Let's do what we can to resolve our differences first. Let's have one proposal that meets with approval, not two that do not.-- Father Goose 20:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Grammar, not grammer. Please excuse my pedantry.-- Father Goose 20:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not realize it was a qoute. It was a long day. Sorry about that!
Will you take a look please, at the wording for the RfC request. I encourage you to make any changes you deem appropriate. Also, is there any point in doing this with Father Goose being unwilling to abide by it? Off to vacation... Thanks — WikiLen 12:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The July 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This is an automated delivery by BrownBot 20:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I was away for a few days but the matter appears to be resolved now? Or is my participation still (wait for it) relevant (har har)? >Radiant< 14:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Would you agree to informal mediation ( Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal) in order to try to resolve our disputes over Wikipedia:Relevance of content?-- Father Goose 00:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey, WikiLen. I've been contemplating what lies ahead of us: we're probably going to glower at each other for a bit more, then move on to arbitration. The more I ponder arbitration, though, the sadder I feel.
I like you, on a personal level, but what you've been pursuing, or rather, the way you've been pursuing it, is wrong. I have many reasons to believe that arbitration will result in a bad outcome for you, and I want to make an effort to explain why before we have to take that step.
In your focus on having "no relevance guideline", you've resorted to elbowing aside or ignoring any users who didn't share your viewpoints and relied on procedural objections to justify those actions. Neither of these will be viewed favorably by the Arbitration Committee.
The Arbitration Committee doesn't evaluate the "rightness" of people's views, nor the "rightness" of content: they limit themselves to evaluating editor behavior. They're going to see that you and Kevin opposed the proposal for your own reasons, and initiated an edit war to cease discussion of it (which you succeeded at). You won't be able to claim that you were merely enforcing the "rules"; they'll be able to see that you used them as procedural obstacles to enforce your personal views over the interests of others. They are not going to take seriously any claims that you embody "the wisdom of the community".
In the entire time I've known you, you've been studiously civil with your words, but unfortunately not with your deeds. Disrupting other peoples' projects because you disagree with the project is not good conduct. You can voice your disagreement, and try to convince others of your views, but your personal objection to something does not allow you to "bury it" -- even when it's a policy matter. In fact, especially not when it's a policy matter -- policies are decided upon by the participation of as many people as possible, and your actions have been aimed at stopping everybody from participating in the Relevance project.
The legal objections you've made hold no water. The applicable parts of WP:POL are meant to keep individuals from flogging a firmly-rejected proposal that has no chance of improving. How firmly has WP:ROC been rejected? Not very. If you and Kevin weren't disrupting it, several people would be working on it and discussing it right now. I'm not saying that it has consensus yet, but I would say that the response to it has been improving all throughout the process. I also can't say for sure if it'll ever attain complete consensus -- but you can't say that it'll never have consensus either. If you were certain that it had no chance of gaining consensus, would you have worked as hard as you have to try to derail it?
Should this reach arbitration, all of the above is going to reflect poorly on you. If you're not convinced of that, ask Editor assistance about any of the points I brought up. You've shown yourself willing to take a "reality check" in the past; I strongly urge you to take stock of your actions right now. Have you played fair, or have you gotten lost in your passions and behaved like a bully?
I hope our conflict doesn't have to proceed to an even more bitter stage.
Be well, -- Father Goose 07:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Would you be willing to request unlocking Wikipedia:Relevance of content? Newbyguesses and I agree to leave it without a template, but we'd like the freedom to try out some of the suggestions coming up in mediation.-- Father Goose 23:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't wish to get involved in the current dispute, but I'm hoping you'll consider some general advice. Try to find alternatives to refactoring other users' comments, as was done on Talk:Relevance a few times, and today when you moved Father Goose's mediation comments to his talk page.
In most cases, refactoring comments by others (especially without their consent) is considered to be a bad thing — unlike Article pages, Talk pages do not need to be formally "correct". Non-trivial refactoring often disrupts other editors' intended communication (or from their perspective, at least seems to), and tends to really tiff people off. It is usually unnecessary, and should not be attempted without the consent of the editors being edited. / edg ☺ ★ 22:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggest placing all comments in sub-topics below — any where you want. The sub-topics are just containers for discussions. They are also a heads up on how I propose to refractor discussion should it become necessary or useful. I recognize the best time for refactoring is usually right when a discussion begins or well after it is done.
Removing personal attacks and incivility. This is controversial, and many editors do not feel it is acceptable; please read WP:ATTACK#Removal of text and WP:CIVIL#Removing uncivil comments before removing anything.
Remove offensive comments on talk pages...
Newbyguesses's comment, quoted below, is copied to here from the mediation page for "Relevance of content." I am replying to this here to keep the mediation about finding a compromise. - ( WikiLen)
WP:FIVE (no link needed, here thanks, WikiLen, WP:FIVE is familiar to us all, some have read it and understood it.) Your constant refactoring, WikiLen, is simetimes helpfu, but very confusing mostly, and I wish you would not refactor, or cut in on, my occasional posts. Newbyguesses - Talk 22:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Newbyguesses, thanks for your kind words (not being facetious) regarding refactoring. You did not need to say that. My other replies (quotes in italics are Newbyguesses'):
End of my replies. — WikiLen 16:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that FG and NG have not shown good faith in the mediation. They have pretended to cooperate while just blowing smoke. I don't see that the status has changed one bit through their delays, and and I don't beleive that such deception should be rewarded. The page was unprotected today and I posted the rejected tag again. -- Kevin Murray 14:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I request unprotection of Wikipedia:Relevance of content; the parties have been in mediation and would like to attempt work on a compromise solution.-- Father Goose 16:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Relevance of content/Content policy analysis: let's try to synchronize our views on this subject so that our continuing work on it can be more effective.-- Father Goose 23:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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You should know by now that we do not doodle in the (Main) namespace. I have moved Relvance-Historical to User:WikiLen/sandbox. (And although you are allowed any title you like for test pages, I would mention that the word is "relevance" and that I see no justification for a capital letter on "historical".) -- RHaworth 05:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
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I am changing my user name to my real name. I prefer to not be anonymous. I am aware of the risks regarding my public reputation -- such as impact on employment. In the future, "Len Raymond" will be my user name. — WikiLen 16:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
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The January 2008 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. If you have any suggestions for improvement or desire other topics to be covered, please leave a message on the talk page of one of the editors.Thank you. Nehrams2020 ( talk) 02:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
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The WikiProject Films coordinator selection process is starting. We are aiming to elect five coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by March 28! Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
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...the idea of adding essays as See-also links to style guidelines, but that one ("Relevance of content") has very little activity on the page or talk page, and not much consensus at all apparent from the talk page. If you want to get some people together to work on it and try to gather some consensus for the ideas, I'd be fine with it becoming a link from style guidelines pages, after a while. - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 23:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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Len, a lot of time and frustration went into the processes of the prior proposal and determining that it was rejected. There should be some real meaningful dicussion before reopening this can of worms. The current format is less objectionable than the wirst of the prior proposals, but a signpost concept was among the options rejected. I've tagged this as an essay for now. Maybe we could talk a bit about why this needs to be revisited so soon after the last resolution was established. Thanks! -- Kevin Murray ( talk) 03:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
The June 2008 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 00:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
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Hi. We're into the last five days of the Women in Red World Contest. There's a new bonus prize of $200 worth of books of your choice to win for creating the most new women biographies between 0:00 on the 26th and 23:59 on 30th November. If you've been contributing to the contest, thank you for your support, we've produced over 2000 articles. If you haven't contributed yet, we would appreciate you taking the time to add entries to our articles achievements list by the end of the month. Thank you, and if participating, good luck with the finale!
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Welcome!
Hey, Len Raymond, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions. I hope you like the site and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful (some of them may sound stupid, but I recommend you check them out):
While editing, please remember:
You should introduce yourself here at the new user log. I hope you enjoy editing and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name, the date, and the time.
For your first edits, I suggest searching for articles that you think might interest you. You could also be audacious and try a random page.
I note, for the record, all edits to date, on the Divine Responsibility section, have been done by myself—from different households/computers, as 68.63.166.188 and 68.9.207.108. Earlier edits were done before I understood the wisdom of using a sign-in name for Wikipedia edits.
If you need help, check out
Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on
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Cbrown1023 00:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I find people tend to react to The Secret on one of two extremes — love the film or hate it. I like the middle. I think it produces real and meaningful value for the viewer—it did for me. I also think it is less than honest in its methods. Furthermore, I firmly believe there is no justification for the weakness in honesty. I don't see evil intent in the methods, just creative people getting carried away with what they are doing. WikiLen 08:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I am reminded of old radios with analog tuning knobs. In tuning to my favorite station, I would turn the knob to the left and then to the right, seeking the center point where the static becomes silent. I submit this:
The joys (static?) of tuning for NPOV... — WikiLen 12:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not a remake of The Secret (2006 film), it's a remake of Himitsu. Check here for what links to it, which is currently just one of the cast (which given it stars David Duchovny is just slack IMNSHO—no, I fixed that, someone did something really stupid on his page—and I had pointed Laurence Leboeuf at the wrong one), and check IMDb for more information. If you would like to make up the stub for it, be my guest; otherwise I might get to it when I have a moment. HTH HAND — Phil | Talk 18:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your note. The sum of No Original Research policy is that all content must be derived from some other place -- in other words, whatever is in an article should be citable to a published or documented source. The material in Responsibility assumption does not provide the specific sources of its assertions. It's particularly important in philosophical-type articles, as anyone can write up a claim of what they believe to be true. Regards, -- Leflyman Talk 03:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Bob Proctor, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.
Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that
administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template {{
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talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this.
Metropolitan90 04:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Herbanreleaf,
There is a list somewhere of the edits I have made where I have not been a "cheerleader for the film" as you say. Give me some time to find it. I will post it here. — WikiLen 21:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Note my section above, The Secret (2006 film) for a picture of my bias. — WikiLen 21:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
My comments that lacked civility were about the SNL piece that someone wanted to include. You first insisted that it was about Rhonda Byrne and not The Secret. Then when other users objected you said it was about the book, not the film. It looks like a yogic bend over backwards to censor another's contribution. Unless something specifically mentions the book and omits the film, it is applicable to both. Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The annoying thing about Wikipedia and even its policy of civility is that it stifles other people and promotes censorhip by the editors who are like the thought police. I don't understand why you get to edit out my sentence, but if I removed your silly section with the closing remarks, as someone once tried to do, I would get barked at by the WikiHounds. Not only do you arbitrarily pick and choose which quotes to delete, but you hypocritically post quotes such as the one that you sent me on responsibility (which, by the way, I found unintelligible) which are purely and admittedly your original research. Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This is why I think Wikipedia attracts control freaks who love to be editors due to a need to exert their arbitrary form of control, possibly related to a feeling of inadequacy in another area of their life, [graphic sexual comment deleted]. This is a classic example of Wikipedia censorship gone amok. I didn't realize that we must also be Puritanical. If you think that G-rated remark was a graphic sexual comment, I'd hate to see your reaction if I said something rated PG. Herbanreleaf 17:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC) Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, here is a great article on The Secret. I'll add the closing remark from this one to your section. http://www.slate.com/id/2165746/ Herbanreleaf 18:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
WikiLen, If you are responsible for the latest sections in The Secret (Film), which I assume you are, I think you did a good job. It's much better than before. Herbanreleaf 03:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
There is currently discussion aimed at developing policy on "relevance" at Wikipedia talk:Avoid trivia sections in articles#What is relevance?. -- Coppertwig 13:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Could you please re-visit your issues with the criticism of the Law of Attraction article? Specific examples would be really helpful. Tmtoulouse 18:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
As the article in question deals with a motion picture, you may wish to try using the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Peer review|Films WikiProject peer review. Topic-specific peer reviews often generate greater responses that general requests due to reviewer's ability to focus on areas matching their interests. -- Allen3 talk 01:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Both drafts are rather lengthy, I'll have to take some time later to read through them. However, could you state, briefly, what you are trying to accomplish here that isn't covered by existing guidelines? >Radiant< 08:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your most excellent comments on the Bleep OR dispute! Really good observations! In case you aren't watching the bleep sandbox, there was a new reference presented from what looks to be a good source for referencing some of the criticisms of the movie: Australian Broadcasting Corp. article on Bleep. Check it out and let me know what you think. Dreadstar † 19:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Edgarde, I am missing something on your critique of this below in my REL3 version for Relevancy. ( WikiLen)
The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines. A fact may be relevant but not notable. The circumference of the Moon is not notable but, although a minor detail, it is relevant for the article on the Moon.
This has nothing to do with the Wikipedia standard for notability. However, it is the sort of example often made (mistakenly) in discussions defining "trivia" — no one (other than in straw man arguments) thinks the moon's circumference is "trivia" and therefore should be excluded from Moon. Someone so confused they believe it may ... still hasn't learned anything by reading this far. ( Edgarde)
There is a straw poll being conducted on the Bleep OR issue. Your input is welcome. Dreadstar † 16:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Due to continued confusion around the scope of the Bleep OR straw poll, I’ve added a clarification note to say that the poll is primarily meant to see if everyone agrees that a majority of that content identified as unsourced or improperly sourced OR in the Bleep sandbox, is indeed OR. Please feel free to change your vote if necessary. Please post a message on my talk page if any of this is unclear. Thanks for your patience! Dreadstar † 17:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey, welcome to the Films WikiProject! We're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of films and film characters. If you haven't already, please add {{ User WikiProject Films}} to your user page.
A few features that you might find helpful:
There is a variety of interesting things to do within the project; you're free to participate however much—or little—you like:
If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! Nehrams2020 05:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Edgarde, I find you in violation of WP:FAITH and WP:CIVIL for this edit.
No idea what motivates this, but it seems highly counter-productive. I recall Father Goose calling this tendency "self-immolation".
I will be deleting the above from the talk page and I wanted to give you a heads up first. You may chose to delete it yourself — I encourage that. Nothing in your above statements serve to improve the article. You are expressing unflattering personal opinions about my editing behavior and sharing those with other editors from a position of respected, excellent editor. This is not the first incident — see also this "guru" comment. I have no idea what motivates this personal attack. It seems to abuse the position of respect you have garnered. I look forward to clearing this up and having your continued presence at the project page. I will take replies at your talk page. — WikiLen 02:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for seeking an outside opinion on this — I really dislike defending myself. I certainly am familiar with WP:NPA; I referred to comment on content, not on the contributor in Review A..
For what it's worth, I recognize that I have a problem with communicating politically, especially in a heterogenous environment with conflicting viewpoints. I actually feel like I've been holding my tongue, but I recognize that a lot of what I say probably hurts some people's feelings. It's something I have to work on, and Wikipedia is as good a place as any for me to practice.
Question: is there a way I could have communicated my concern about the tendencies in your proposals better? Could you recommend something?
I'll try to go lighter on matters of WP:RELEVANCE. I've already had my say (and then some) so at least in this case it should be much easier from here on out. / edg ☺ ★ 03:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Edgarde, I would be very grateful if you would take a shot at writing the lead paragraph for the WikiLen fork. Father Goose, with my agreement, edited it out. Maybe a lead paragraph is not needed but I doubt it and I feel incomplete without one. I ask for this favor both because you are the best at this and because collaboration can only help. Thanks for your participation in this project. — WikiLen 04:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to ask you to hold off on bringing wider attention to WP:REL for a few days more, while I try to address the problems still inherent in the "three questions" section. Certain editors are eager to interpret lack of comments by the broad community as rejection. Let's do what we can to resolve our differences first. Let's have one proposal that meets with approval, not two that do not.-- Father Goose 20:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Grammar, not grammer. Please excuse my pedantry.-- Father Goose 20:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not realize it was a qoute. It was a long day. Sorry about that!
Will you take a look please, at the wording for the RfC request. I encourage you to make any changes you deem appropriate. Also, is there any point in doing this with Father Goose being unwilling to abide by it? Off to vacation... Thanks — WikiLen 12:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The July 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This is an automated delivery by BrownBot 20:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I was away for a few days but the matter appears to be resolved now? Or is my participation still (wait for it) relevant (har har)? >Radiant< 14:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Would you agree to informal mediation ( Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal) in order to try to resolve our disputes over Wikipedia:Relevance of content?-- Father Goose 00:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey, WikiLen. I've been contemplating what lies ahead of us: we're probably going to glower at each other for a bit more, then move on to arbitration. The more I ponder arbitration, though, the sadder I feel.
I like you, on a personal level, but what you've been pursuing, or rather, the way you've been pursuing it, is wrong. I have many reasons to believe that arbitration will result in a bad outcome for you, and I want to make an effort to explain why before we have to take that step.
In your focus on having "no relevance guideline", you've resorted to elbowing aside or ignoring any users who didn't share your viewpoints and relied on procedural objections to justify those actions. Neither of these will be viewed favorably by the Arbitration Committee.
The Arbitration Committee doesn't evaluate the "rightness" of people's views, nor the "rightness" of content: they limit themselves to evaluating editor behavior. They're going to see that you and Kevin opposed the proposal for your own reasons, and initiated an edit war to cease discussion of it (which you succeeded at). You won't be able to claim that you were merely enforcing the "rules"; they'll be able to see that you used them as procedural obstacles to enforce your personal views over the interests of others. They are not going to take seriously any claims that you embody "the wisdom of the community".
In the entire time I've known you, you've been studiously civil with your words, but unfortunately not with your deeds. Disrupting other peoples' projects because you disagree with the project is not good conduct. You can voice your disagreement, and try to convince others of your views, but your personal objection to something does not allow you to "bury it" -- even when it's a policy matter. In fact, especially not when it's a policy matter -- policies are decided upon by the participation of as many people as possible, and your actions have been aimed at stopping everybody from participating in the Relevance project.
The legal objections you've made hold no water. The applicable parts of WP:POL are meant to keep individuals from flogging a firmly-rejected proposal that has no chance of improving. How firmly has WP:ROC been rejected? Not very. If you and Kevin weren't disrupting it, several people would be working on it and discussing it right now. I'm not saying that it has consensus yet, but I would say that the response to it has been improving all throughout the process. I also can't say for sure if it'll ever attain complete consensus -- but you can't say that it'll never have consensus either. If you were certain that it had no chance of gaining consensus, would you have worked as hard as you have to try to derail it?
Should this reach arbitration, all of the above is going to reflect poorly on you. If you're not convinced of that, ask Editor assistance about any of the points I brought up. You've shown yourself willing to take a "reality check" in the past; I strongly urge you to take stock of your actions right now. Have you played fair, or have you gotten lost in your passions and behaved like a bully?
I hope our conflict doesn't have to proceed to an even more bitter stage.
Be well, -- Father Goose 07:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Would you be willing to request unlocking Wikipedia:Relevance of content? Newbyguesses and I agree to leave it without a template, but we'd like the freedom to try out some of the suggestions coming up in mediation.-- Father Goose 23:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't wish to get involved in the current dispute, but I'm hoping you'll consider some general advice. Try to find alternatives to refactoring other users' comments, as was done on Talk:Relevance a few times, and today when you moved Father Goose's mediation comments to his talk page.
In most cases, refactoring comments by others (especially without their consent) is considered to be a bad thing — unlike Article pages, Talk pages do not need to be formally "correct". Non-trivial refactoring often disrupts other editors' intended communication (or from their perspective, at least seems to), and tends to really tiff people off. It is usually unnecessary, and should not be attempted without the consent of the editors being edited. / edg ☺ ★ 22:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Suggest placing all comments in sub-topics below — any where you want. The sub-topics are just containers for discussions. They are also a heads up on how I propose to refractor discussion should it become necessary or useful. I recognize the best time for refactoring is usually right when a discussion begins or well after it is done.
Removing personal attacks and incivility. This is controversial, and many editors do not feel it is acceptable; please read WP:ATTACK#Removal of text and WP:CIVIL#Removing uncivil comments before removing anything.
Remove offensive comments on talk pages...
Newbyguesses's comment, quoted below, is copied to here from the mediation page for "Relevance of content." I am replying to this here to keep the mediation about finding a compromise. - ( WikiLen)
WP:FIVE (no link needed, here thanks, WikiLen, WP:FIVE is familiar to us all, some have read it and understood it.) Your constant refactoring, WikiLen, is simetimes helpfu, but very confusing mostly, and I wish you would not refactor, or cut in on, my occasional posts. Newbyguesses - Talk 22:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Newbyguesses, thanks for your kind words (not being facetious) regarding refactoring. You did not need to say that. My other replies (quotes in italics are Newbyguesses'):
End of my replies. — WikiLen 16:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that FG and NG have not shown good faith in the mediation. They have pretended to cooperate while just blowing smoke. I don't see that the status has changed one bit through their delays, and and I don't beleive that such deception should be rewarded. The page was unprotected today and I posted the rejected tag again. -- Kevin Murray 14:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I request unprotection of Wikipedia:Relevance of content; the parties have been in mediation and would like to attempt work on a compromise solution.-- Father Goose 16:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
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Wikipedia:Relevance of content/Content policy analysis: let's try to synchronize our views on this subject so that our continuing work on it can be more effective.-- Father Goose 23:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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Thanks for uploading Image:Genie of the Lantern.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
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You should know by now that we do not doodle in the (Main) namespace. I have moved Relvance-Historical to User:WikiLen/sandbox. (And although you are allowed any title you like for test pages, I would mention that the word is "relevance" and that I see no justification for a capital letter on "historical".) -- RHaworth 05:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The October 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot 21:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I am changing my user name to my real name. I prefer to not be anonymous. I am aware of the risks regarding my public reputation -- such as impact on employment. In the future, "Len Raymond" will be my user name. — WikiLen 16:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
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The January 2008 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. If you have any suggestions for improvement or desire other topics to be covered, please leave a message on the talk page of one of the editors.Thank you. Nehrams2020 ( talk) 02:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
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The WikiProject Films coordinator selection process is starting. We are aiming to elect five coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by March 28! Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
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...the idea of adding essays as See-also links to style guidelines, but that one ("Relevance of content") has very little activity on the page or talk page, and not much consensus at all apparent from the talk page. If you want to get some people together to work on it and try to gather some consensus for the ideas, I'd be fine with it becoming a link from style guidelines pages, after a while. - Dan Dank55 ( talk)( mistakes) 23:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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Len, a lot of time and frustration went into the processes of the prior proposal and determining that it was rejected. There should be some real meaningful dicussion before reopening this can of worms. The current format is less objectionable than the wirst of the prior proposals, but a signpost concept was among the options rejected. I've tagged this as an essay for now. Maybe we could talk a bit about why this needs to be revisited so soon after the last resolution was established. Thanks! -- Kevin Murray ( talk) 03:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
The June 2008 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 00:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
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Hi. We're into the last five days of the Women in Red World Contest. There's a new bonus prize of $200 worth of books of your choice to win for creating the most new women biographies between 0:00 on the 26th and 23:59 on 30th November. If you've been contributing to the contest, thank you for your support, we've produced over 2000 articles. If you haven't contributed yet, we would appreciate you taking the time to add entries to our articles achievements list by the end of the month. Thank you, and if participating, good luck with the finale!
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