This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Replying here since it isn't particulary relevant to the rfa. I'm just curious why you'd want to get rid of inactive admins with one process, yet create more at another. And I mean inactive in the sense that they're admittedly not going to use the tools. Is there any particular significance on whether someone edits articles or not in determining whether the tools simply existing are doing any harm or not? Or am I just missing something? - Bobet 23:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot ( talk) 06:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I think this little tiff needs to be stifled. We obviously do not agree on what constitutes a good or bad oppose argument. Not everyone is going to agree and I'm ok with that, however, is it really fair to the candidate to see a sidetracked RfA? Let's just be civil about this. If you don't like my oppose argument, drop me a note on my talk page to discuss it. If you do not wish to do so, I'm going to ask that you cease mentioning my name at RfA (that's frustrating, and I think you know beforehand that it's a form of goading) and making sweeping comments about the opposition. I think it's better off if we both refrain from WP:SARCASM. Is that cool? Wisdom89 ( T / C) 17:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
[1] - Again, my apologies for my lack of work on this - by no means a slight to MFC - just a failure to review my watchlist properly! Pedro : Chat 23:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
(Posted to User talk:Majorly and User talk:Wisdom89 - if you want to reply in a central location, my talk page is open.)
Both of you need to shut up and think about the damage your bickering is doing to candidates. If you disagree with someone's RfA philosophy, take it to their talk page to try and convince them otherwise, or take it to WT:RFA to convince the 'crats that the comment should be considered without merit.
Think about the damage both of you are doing to candidates. giggy ( :O) 06:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I just read your piece on canvassing. I did not realise the canvassing ban was so new, but now you mention, I do recall a bit a low level self-promotion back in 2006.
In real life, I live in a democracy, not a wiki, so canvassing is a requirement. Since a wiki is not a democracy, canvassing serves a different purpose, and I really can't figure out its role, but thank you for making me think.
-- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 13:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
-- Bedford Pray 05:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Cheers for your support during my RfA. I am obviously disappointed in the outcome, but I got a lot of good constructive criticism from the process which can only be an improvement for me. Who knows, in the coming months after I've incorporated all this advice I may be successful. Cheers! Mark t young ( talk) 07:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Alright, be honest.. Have you been possessed by Kmweber? Friday (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Majorly, I wanted to let you know that I've sent you an E-mail. Regards. Acalamari 16:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
It may not be the Wikipedia Weekly, and it may not even be weekly - but it's scheduled for less than 24 hours time! - all the info is at the wiki page, and be sure to hang in all the usual places for help and guidance in hooking up the conference call! - feel free to ask me any questions, otherwise I look forward to chatting tomorrow morning (my time!) - cheers, Privatemusings ( talk) 05:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
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Volume 4, Issue 26 | 26 June 2008 | About the Signpost |
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot ( talk) 07:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
At least you don't resort to death threats onwiki. giggy ( :O) 12:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
No offence intended, giggy, but if your first comment there implies receipt of a death threat (either from Majorly or someone else) can you please be a bit more clear so you aren't misinterpreted? Avruch 14:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Because I had started to notice User:Killerofcruft because of problematic behavior with another AfD, for Donna Upson, where he edit warred with an administrator, I saw the incident come down where he also edit warred with you over your speedy closure of WP:Articles for deletion/MKR (programming language) (2nd nomination), and then I saw how AN/I utterly failed to respond to the situation. AN/I was designed for dealing with editor behavior, not content issues, ordinarily, but the AN/I report about clearly abusive editor behavior was quickly and successfully diverted to a discussion of the notability of the article, and the resulting delay was effective in keeping the AfD open. If this was a deliberate strategy, it worked.
I'm quite concerned about the division in the community which this has revealed. If you look at Talk for that AfD, you can find a list of the editors who voted and various characteristics of those editors. It is immediately obvious that the community is divided over which is more important: process or a "correct decision about notability." There are four administrators voting, effectively, on the notability side, and three on the process side. There are other aspects of this that can be seen in that report, and even more that I've seen and haven't written about.
The process that Wikipedia uses to determine notability is quite flawed, many would agree with that, but it is what we have, and it works in certain ways, and one of the things that makes it tolerable is that rapid renomination is highly discouraged, we might as well say prohibited, except that no specific time period has been set. It seems that there are more than a few editors and administrators, with collectively more edits than those who seem to care about the process, who are quite willing to set aside the policy against rapid renomination (and nobody has argued that this wasn't rapid) in favor of "making the correct decision" immediately.
I am thinking that it may be the time to try to address this directly. As a start, I have collected, at User:Abd/MKR incident, a history of the AN/I report. At this point, it is mostly a raw history, I intend to flesh it out to make it a more readable history, pointing out the salient events. There are two goals, ultimately: to show, clearly, how AN/I failed to perform its design function, to seek solutions as to how to make AN/I more functional (there are lots of ways it could be done), and, as well --possibly--, to address certain behavioral issues a bit more subtle than clear edit warring. AN/I was abused, in ways that I've seen many times, it's not just this incident. And we should stop it. It is as if, whenever someone calls the police, the operator puts off sending an officer until the parties involved have a big argument about it. If an officer sees a brawl taking place in a bar, the officer does not waste time deciding who was right. The officer stops the brawl, first. And, in fact, may never make any determination of fault, that's not his or her job. Keeping order is the job. I'd be appreciative of your comments. -- Abd ( talk) 22:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
You were kicked from #wikimedia-ops by Majorly (Majorly) - Can you explain that kick, over me not being an ops? By my knowledge, wikipedia is intentionally an open community. With access to all sections for both admins and non-admins alike. So that (for example) new users have the ability to learn from the more experiences ones. And long time users can help out, questions can be equally well answered by those without heavy tools. For the cases where there really is privacy required, special channels have been created, such as #wikipedia-ops-internal on IRC. Basically I can think of no good reason why #wikipedia-ops should be restricted (that's what we have the internal channel for?). And belief it was a reasonable question to ask by what rules I had to leave for not being an op, in a wikipedia channel open to the public. I even pointed out that I contribute to wikipedia on a daily basis. But you provided no set of rules, or policy by what I had to leave, and just kicked me. =Species8473= (talk) 00:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for !voting on my RfA. If you supported, I'll make sure your confidence is not misplaced; if you opposed, I'll take your criticism into account and try to adjust my behavior accordingly.
See you around the wiki!-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 00:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your support in my recent RfA, which closed successfully. I felt the process was a thorough review of my contributions and my demeanor, and I was very gratified to see how many editors took the time to really see what I'm about and how I can be of help to the project. As a result, some editors changed their views during the discussion, and most expressed specific, detailed points to indicate their opinion (whether it was , , or ).
A number of editors were concerned about my level of experience. I was purposeful in not waiting until a particular benchmark occurred before requesting adminship, because I feel - as many do - that adminship is not a reward and that each case is individual. It is true that I am not the most experienced editor around here, but I appreciate that people dug into my contributions enough to reach the conclusion that I seem to have a clue. Also, the best thing about this particular concern is that experience is something an editor - or administrator - can always get more of, and I'll continue doing that, just as I've been doing. (If I seem a little slow at it, feel free to slap me.)
I am a strong believer in the concept that this project is all about the content, and I'm looking forward to contributing wherever I can. Please let me know if I can be of any help. In the meantime, I'm off to school...
Thanks again!
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Volume 4, Issue 27 | 30 June 2008 | About the Signpost |
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot ( talk) 03:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey. Episode 51. Go. Listen. Comment. Enjoy. WODUPbot 04:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Don't want these notifications anymore? Remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiProject WikipediaWeekly/delivery.
I got someone to create a Main Page barnstar, and I thought that you might be a good recipient. Your work on the Main Page redesign, as Al Tally, has been greatly appreciated. If you can reply here, or leave me a message, I can award it to you as soon as I can. Thanks, Genius101 Wizard ( talk) 00:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a clarification, I know that some editors disike all barnstars, so I was wondering if you are okay with them. Thanks, Genius101 Wizard ( talk) 01:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Majorly,
Just to let you know that the Featured Picture Image:Shakespeare.jpg is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on July 13, 2008. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2008-07-13. howcheng { chat} 23:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
As you may know, the StatusBot responsible for maintaining the status of the Highly Active Users was taken offline. We now have a replacement in the Qui status system. This semi-automatic system will allow you to easily update your status page found at Special:Mypage/Status which the HAU page code is now designed to read from. If you are already using Qui (or a compatible system) - great! - no action is needed (other than remembering to update your status as necessary). If not, consider installing Qui. You can also manually update this status by changing the page text to online, offline, or busy. While it is not mandatory, the nature of HAU is that people are often seeking a quick answer from someone who is online and keeping our statuses up-to-date will assist with this. Note if you were previously using your /Status page as something other than a one-word status indicator, your HAU entry may have been set to "status=n" to correct display issues. Please clear this parameter if you change things to be "HAU compatible". Further questions can be raised at WT:HAU. This message was delivered by xenobot 23:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Replying here since it isn't particulary relevant to the rfa. I'm just curious why you'd want to get rid of inactive admins with one process, yet create more at another. And I mean inactive in the sense that they're admittedly not going to use the tools. Is there any particular significance on whether someone edits articles or not in determining whether the tools simply existing are doing any harm or not? Or am I just missing something? - Bobet 23:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
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Volume 4, Issue 24 | 9 June 2008 | About the Signpost |
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Home | Archives | Newsroom | Tip Line | Single-Page View | Shortcut : WP:POST |
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot ( talk) 06:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I think this little tiff needs to be stifled. We obviously do not agree on what constitutes a good or bad oppose argument. Not everyone is going to agree and I'm ok with that, however, is it really fair to the candidate to see a sidetracked RfA? Let's just be civil about this. If you don't like my oppose argument, drop me a note on my talk page to discuss it. If you do not wish to do so, I'm going to ask that you cease mentioning my name at RfA (that's frustrating, and I think you know beforehand that it's a form of goading) and making sweeping comments about the opposition. I think it's better off if we both refrain from WP:SARCASM. Is that cool? Wisdom89 ( T / C) 17:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
[1] - Again, my apologies for my lack of work on this - by no means a slight to MFC - just a failure to review my watchlist properly! Pedro : Chat 23:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
(Posted to User talk:Majorly and User talk:Wisdom89 - if you want to reply in a central location, my talk page is open.)
Both of you need to shut up and think about the damage your bickering is doing to candidates. If you disagree with someone's RfA philosophy, take it to their talk page to try and convince them otherwise, or take it to WT:RFA to convince the 'crats that the comment should be considered without merit.
Think about the damage both of you are doing to candidates. giggy ( :O) 06:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I just read your piece on canvassing. I did not realise the canvassing ban was so new, but now you mention, I do recall a bit a low level self-promotion back in 2006.
In real life, I live in a democracy, not a wiki, so canvassing is a requirement. Since a wiki is not a democracy, canvassing serves a different purpose, and I really can't figure out its role, but thank you for making me think.
-- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 13:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
-- Bedford Pray 05:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Cheers for your support during my RfA. I am obviously disappointed in the outcome, but I got a lot of good constructive criticism from the process which can only be an improvement for me. Who knows, in the coming months after I've incorporated all this advice I may be successful. Cheers! Mark t young ( talk) 07:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Alright, be honest.. Have you been possessed by Kmweber? Friday (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Majorly, I wanted to let you know that I've sent you an E-mail. Regards. Acalamari 16:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
It may not be the Wikipedia Weekly, and it may not even be weekly - but it's scheduled for less than 24 hours time! - all the info is at the wiki page, and be sure to hang in all the usual places for help and guidance in hooking up the conference call! - feel free to ask me any questions, otherwise I look forward to chatting tomorrow morning (my time!) - cheers, Privatemusings ( talk) 05:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Weekly Delivery |
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Volume 4, Issue 25 | 23 June 2008 | About the Signpost |
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Volume 4, Issue 26 | 26 June 2008 | About the Signpost |
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot ( talk) 07:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
At least you don't resort to death threats onwiki. giggy ( :O) 12:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
No offence intended, giggy, but if your first comment there implies receipt of a death threat (either from Majorly or someone else) can you please be a bit more clear so you aren't misinterpreted? Avruch 14:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Because I had started to notice User:Killerofcruft because of problematic behavior with another AfD, for Donna Upson, where he edit warred with an administrator, I saw the incident come down where he also edit warred with you over your speedy closure of WP:Articles for deletion/MKR (programming language) (2nd nomination), and then I saw how AN/I utterly failed to respond to the situation. AN/I was designed for dealing with editor behavior, not content issues, ordinarily, but the AN/I report about clearly abusive editor behavior was quickly and successfully diverted to a discussion of the notability of the article, and the resulting delay was effective in keeping the AfD open. If this was a deliberate strategy, it worked.
I'm quite concerned about the division in the community which this has revealed. If you look at Talk for that AfD, you can find a list of the editors who voted and various characteristics of those editors. It is immediately obvious that the community is divided over which is more important: process or a "correct decision about notability." There are four administrators voting, effectively, on the notability side, and three on the process side. There are other aspects of this that can be seen in that report, and even more that I've seen and haven't written about.
The process that Wikipedia uses to determine notability is quite flawed, many would agree with that, but it is what we have, and it works in certain ways, and one of the things that makes it tolerable is that rapid renomination is highly discouraged, we might as well say prohibited, except that no specific time period has been set. It seems that there are more than a few editors and administrators, with collectively more edits than those who seem to care about the process, who are quite willing to set aside the policy against rapid renomination (and nobody has argued that this wasn't rapid) in favor of "making the correct decision" immediately.
I am thinking that it may be the time to try to address this directly. As a start, I have collected, at User:Abd/MKR incident, a history of the AN/I report. At this point, it is mostly a raw history, I intend to flesh it out to make it a more readable history, pointing out the salient events. There are two goals, ultimately: to show, clearly, how AN/I failed to perform its design function, to seek solutions as to how to make AN/I more functional (there are lots of ways it could be done), and, as well --possibly--, to address certain behavioral issues a bit more subtle than clear edit warring. AN/I was abused, in ways that I've seen many times, it's not just this incident. And we should stop it. It is as if, whenever someone calls the police, the operator puts off sending an officer until the parties involved have a big argument about it. If an officer sees a brawl taking place in a bar, the officer does not waste time deciding who was right. The officer stops the brawl, first. And, in fact, may never make any determination of fault, that's not his or her job. Keeping order is the job. I'd be appreciative of your comments. -- Abd ( talk) 22:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
You were kicked from #wikimedia-ops by Majorly (Majorly) - Can you explain that kick, over me not being an ops? By my knowledge, wikipedia is intentionally an open community. With access to all sections for both admins and non-admins alike. So that (for example) new users have the ability to learn from the more experiences ones. And long time users can help out, questions can be equally well answered by those without heavy tools. For the cases where there really is privacy required, special channels have been created, such as #wikipedia-ops-internal on IRC. Basically I can think of no good reason why #wikipedia-ops should be restricted (that's what we have the internal channel for?). And belief it was a reasonable question to ask by what rules I had to leave for not being an op, in a wikipedia channel open to the public. I even pointed out that I contribute to wikipedia on a daily basis. But you provided no set of rules, or policy by what I had to leave, and just kicked me. =Species8473= (talk) 00:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for !voting on my RfA. If you supported, I'll make sure your confidence is not misplaced; if you opposed, I'll take your criticism into account and try to adjust my behavior accordingly.
See you around the wiki!-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 00:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your support in my recent RfA, which closed successfully. I felt the process was a thorough review of my contributions and my demeanor, and I was very gratified to see how many editors took the time to really see what I'm about and how I can be of help to the project. As a result, some editors changed their views during the discussion, and most expressed specific, detailed points to indicate their opinion (whether it was , , or ).
A number of editors were concerned about my level of experience. I was purposeful in not waiting until a particular benchmark occurred before requesting adminship, because I feel - as many do - that adminship is not a reward and that each case is individual. It is true that I am not the most experienced editor around here, but I appreciate that people dug into my contributions enough to reach the conclusion that I seem to have a clue. Also, the best thing about this particular concern is that experience is something an editor - or administrator - can always get more of, and I'll continue doing that, just as I've been doing. (If I seem a little slow at it, feel free to slap me.)
I am a strong believer in the concept that this project is all about the content, and I'm looking forward to contributing wherever I can. Please let me know if I can be of any help. In the meantime, I'm off to school...
Thanks again!
Weekly Delivery |
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Volume 4, Issue 27 | 30 June 2008 | About the Signpost |
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Home | Archives | Newsroom | Tip Line | Single-Page View | Shortcut : WP:POST |
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot ( talk) 03:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey. Episode 51. Go. Listen. Comment. Enjoy. WODUPbot 04:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Don't want these notifications anymore? Remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiProject WikipediaWeekly/delivery.
I got someone to create a Main Page barnstar, and I thought that you might be a good recipient. Your work on the Main Page redesign, as Al Tally, has been greatly appreciated. If you can reply here, or leave me a message, I can award it to you as soon as I can. Thanks, Genius101 Wizard ( talk) 00:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a clarification, I know that some editors disike all barnstars, so I was wondering if you are okay with them. Thanks, Genius101 Wizard ( talk) 01:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi Majorly,
Just to let you know that the Featured Picture Image:Shakespeare.jpg is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on July 13, 2008. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2008-07-13. howcheng { chat} 23:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
As you may know, the StatusBot responsible for maintaining the status of the Highly Active Users was taken offline. We now have a replacement in the Qui status system. This semi-automatic system will allow you to easily update your status page found at Special:Mypage/Status which the HAU page code is now designed to read from. If you are already using Qui (or a compatible system) - great! - no action is needed (other than remembering to update your status as necessary). If not, consider installing Qui. You can also manually update this status by changing the page text to online, offline, or busy. While it is not mandatory, the nature of HAU is that people are often seeking a quick answer from someone who is online and keeping our statuses up-to-date will assist with this. Note if you were previously using your /Status page as something other than a one-word status indicator, your HAU entry may have been set to "status=n" to correct display issues. Please clear this parameter if you change things to be "HAU compatible". Further questions can be raised at WT:HAU. This message was delivered by xenobot 23:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)