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Please carefully read this information:
A community discussion has authorised the use of
general sanctions for pages related to coronavirus disease 2019 (
COVID-19).
The specific details of these sanctions are described
here.
Doug Weller talk 09:54, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
For edit warring at Wuhan Institute of Virology to use prohibited pre-prints in violation of WP:MEDRS and WP:RS, and refusing to back down when it was explained to you that you are in breach, you are now subject to a short block. If you resume when the block expires, you will be blocked for longer. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 15:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller: Please help here I have been blocked unjustly.
@ Doug Weller: Please help here I have been blocked unjustly.
@ Boing! said Zebedee: And if no one comes very often on the page, like those I started to contribute in X-Ray, is there a delay where I can make the changes or does it have to stay in the limbo until someone else comes? Do I have to contact editors involved in closely related fields (like medical physics) to come and help me? I'm sorry if I ask too much questions :p I will go and read the concensus page now. Did you also remove the other place where my ban was public, like where I was refered? I think there might be more pages where my name is on but I lost track of it I think. Not the one with the 1-liner, which I saw you changed due to misunderstanding. I want to add comments about misunderstanding everywhere I was referenced, thanks!
Bonjour,
J'ai cru comprendre que tu étais francophone. UL09 ? Diplomé de l'Université de Louvain/Lyon/Lausanne en 2009 ? ;-)
Il faut absolument rester trÚs zen sur wikipédia sinon, ça finit toujours par mal tourner... Si tu as des doutes sur le sujet : sur le fond je ne sais pas, mais sur la forme, tu es dans ton tort. Tu as introduit une information contestée dans un article. La charge de la preuve est dans ton chef et il faut un consensus en pdd pour le réintroduire. La messe est dite. Il ne fallait faire de revert.
Mais en plus, l'article est sous "discretionary sanctions", ce qui veut dire en pratique plein pouvoirs aux sysops pour y maintenir l'ordre... Le revert, c'est te coller une cible sur le front. Et last but not least : avec une source primaire pour introduire une information controversée, c'est sans espoir quel que soit l'article et le sujet. Attention que je redis : je ne juge pas le fond (que je ne connais pas) mais juste la forme.
See you, RadXman ( talk) 16:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
@ RadXman: Merci beaucoup tout le monde. Et en passant c'est cool que tu aies Ă©crit sur ma page, as tu envie de m'aider Ă amĂ©liorer la page de l'inspection industrielle? J'ai enlevĂ© plusieurs trucs, mais je crois qu'il y a d'autres choses Ă enlever qui n'ont pas vraiment rapport, comme la longue discussion sur les radioisotopes... Ăa devrait ĂȘtre inclus mais pas avec autant de dĂ©tails chimiques selon moi... Ils sont utilisĂ©s comme une source de radiation, rien de plus et les gens dans l'industrie n'ont pas vraiment besoin de savoir les dĂ©tails sur ça, puisqu'ils existent sĂ»rement ailleurs. Il faudrait faire rĂ©fĂ©rence Ă ces autres pages par contre. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 16:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
@ RadXman: Yes it's true that for portable inspection solutions the natural sources are more convenient. But it seemed to me like all those cabinet machines buzzing about in different factories where being overlooked. And man there's TONS of stuff I can talk about on that subject XD. That's my field. I do not have experience with natural sources other than knowing about them and seeing them in action someplace. That's why I didn't want to remove too much about that subject and I left the chemical property stuff there, because I can't perfectly tell if it's really relevant. Thanks again for your comments! Happy editing :-)
You are within your rights to delete comments from your Talk page. You are NOT within your rights to move comments, i.e, MY comment, to another place. Please go to Talk: Industrial radiography and delete the content from there. Another example, because it appears you need examples: Suppose you comment on an article's or editor's Talk page, and then decide you want to amend what you have written. That is fine as long as no one has subsequently commented. Once there is a follow-on comment, you can add a new comment after that, but revising or deleting you comment is no longer permitted. David notMD ( talk) 19:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@
David notMD: Please point to me where you said that moving it was not fine:
"With certain exceptions, editors are free to delete content from being visible on their Talk pages (it will still be accessible via View history). Some editors leave everything, others delete everything, and some move older stuff to an archive of their Talk page." Btw I just deleted your comments as per your request. I would like you to be more specific next time you want to help. And please don't use this "because it appears you need examples" kind of rhetoric here, I found hints of
paternalism in this sentence, but then again I assume it was in good faith to help me. Thank you.
PhysiqueUL09 (
talk) 20:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Bus stop: Thank you. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 20:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is " National_People%27s_Congress_Decision_on_Hong_Kong_national_security_legislation".
Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!
You have resorted to a
textbook personal attack (see item 3 Using someone's political affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views
). Pinging
MarkH21 on this one. CaradhrasAiguo (
leave language) 22:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: Oh, sorry, it was unintentional. I changed it now, so that it is not directed towards you. Sorry. May I suggest you look at WP:CAN Before inviting someone that actively writes in your talk page? Thanks! PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:30, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Not directed towards youby using the pronoun while leaving the rest of the post intact is cutting corners.
Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 22:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: Please, can you help me find a way to rephrase it so that it becomes relevant to the discussion? I am not saying this was your case, I simply wanted to convey the message that the arguments you have proposed during your WP:BLPTALK issue might have come from news that are related to [1]. It's not you that I tried to dismiss here, but your arguments that seem to come from disinformation. Or maybe it is not right to use this kind of language, I would refer to someone that has more experience in WP politics though. I really don't know how to say it properly, but I believe you know what I mean, care to help? I truly believe that here you need to WP:AGF because I learned from my past experiences and I try to apply WP policies accordingly. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: I removed the earlier part because it is irrelevant to the discussion here, you are accusing me of NPA, what I did before has nothing to do with it. You are not to judge my unintential action based on what has been said before, I will remove it again and if you revert it again I will ask for help from an administrator. Thank you PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: I removed perfectly in accordance with WP:TPO, because using past references to offenses is a personnal attack, see quote here from WP:TPO: "Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling, and vandalism." I found your inclusion of past references was harmful, so I removed it. It is perfectly compliant with WP:TPO. Thank you PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: And since you seem to accuse me of spamming, I will do exactly that on my page. Removing what you added first was perfectly compliant with WP:RPA, since it's in my talk page. Please refrain from any other aggressive behaviour, you have been warned now a couple of times and I left a note on your talk page, the next step is administration. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 23:44, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I WP:DROPTHESTICK now. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 23:57, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Woah, it takes a lot of guts to do that! I just learned about it! Shuping Yang commencement speech controversy PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 02:41, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
This is a nice tool! Geant4 PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 02:47, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi PhysiqueUL09! The thread you created at the
Wikipedia:Teahouse,
|
Please refrain from using talk pages such as Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology for general discussion of the topic or other unrelated topics. They are for discussion related to improving the article in specific ways, based on reliable sources and the project policies and guidelines; they are not for use as a forum or chat room. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. See here for more information. Specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology&curid=62933053&diff=960899944&oldid=960887905 Doug Weller talk 15:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
That was an interesting video, particularly the part about how two related viruses could, if put together in the lab, either in an animal or in a petri dish, interact with each other to produce a third virus that would still be natural and would show no indications of having been influenced by humans.
Did you see the story about the Sir Richard Dearlove, the former head of MI6, saying not just the he thinks the virus escaped from the lab but that it was man-made? That was surprising. Of course nothing from that publication would be allowed into a Wikipedia article, but a mention of this is already in the Richard Dearlove article, referenced by this article which supplies a reference to this peer-reviewed study, the thrust of which I have been so far unable to grasp except that it claims to have identified "inserted sections placed on the SARS-CoV-2 Spike surface." I have no idea how robust this finding is. Can you decipher any of it?
I was under the impression that such manipulation has already been ruled out by numerous experts in this area saying that any man-made components of a virus would stand out. However it is clear that many of the scientists arguing against the possibility of any accidental release from the WIV have extensive relationships with the WIV, or with members of that community, and have much to lose if scientific collaboration with the Chinese is curtailed in any way â people like Peter Daszak and anybody connected with EcoHealth Alliance in particular. In addition, if it is shown that this virus did leak from a lab then all scientists in this area are likely to have their activities significantly curtailed. Then we have Jonna Mazet, director of PREDICT, which trained the scientists at the WIV. Whatâs she supposed to say, that oh well we must have screwed up in our security training?
The bottom line for me relates to the legal doctrine of Consciousness of guilt. Why the refusal to cooperate? Why was China forbidding an investigation into the origins of the virus? Why did they go in and take some kind of action at the WIV (if they did) to clean things up or destroy evidence? It actually could be something as simple as a concern on their part that the WIV would be unfairly blamed, kind of like the innocent person who finds the murder weapon and buries it because heâs afraid he will be blamed, and is discovered in the process. I think there will be more shoes to drop. Whether the U.S. government releases whatever they have is the big unknown. As soon as they do they lose that avenue of spying on China, and would anything be accomplished by it anyway? Whatever evidence it is, China will deny it and claim that it was manufactured.
Here's an interesting collection of information if you have not already seen it. â Swood100 ( talk) 15:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
When I unblocked you on 21 May, it was after your agreement to avoid Covid-19 subjects. Now, the unblock was not actually conditional on that, so I'm not going to issue any sanctions based on the fact that you changed your mind and have been active in that area. However, I am disappinted to see that you have been very actively pursuing a fringe subject (the allegations of a lab origin for the virus), against the balance of reliable sources. You have been doing this using primary sources, and even preprints which are expressly forbidden for use in Covid-19 articles. You have even been editing warring over it, and accusing other people of vandalism - people who are merely trying to uphold our requirement for reliable sources. And it's not just MEDRS, you have been arguing for non-reliable sources (as per WP:RS) in a persistent manner, verging on the tendentious.
While I was investigating this, I see you made a report at WP:ANI. As a result of that report, you have been warned that you are close to a topic ban from Covid-19 subjects. I also see that you have agreed to drop the stick, which is a positive step. Going forward, please remember that Wikipedia is not supposed to be at the leading edge of research, develpment, speculation, theorising etc. That is by design. Wikipedia does, and should, lag behind current speculation and investigation. We are only interested in the balance of what reliable sources say (and in the case of Covid-19 subjects, that's almost entirely WP:MEDRS, certainly WP:RS, and no primary sources, no preprints). We're also not interested in the opinions or interpretations of individual editors, as we ourselves are not reliable sources. This comment by JoelleJay sums it up very well, and I recommend you take it to heart.
I do note your statement on your user page, "I suffer from this, it will sometimes make me seem very intense". I know what that's like, having seen a family member aflicted with it for decades. I also note your request "Please take the time to advise me, or tell me to slow down if you ever feel I am being too intense". I will also bear that in mind. But, and this might seem cruel (and if it does, it's unintentional), if you suffer from a condition that makes it difficult to moderate your behaviour sometimes, you can't really expect everyone else to try to do it for you.
So, to conclude, you do need to be aware that if you are involved in any further disruption (even unintended disruption), you will very likely end up with a topic ban. I hope this all makes sense, and I thank you for listening and understanding. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 13:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Boing! said Zebedee: Thank you very much for this. I realized now that I was having a fixation on this. It affected my perception of the discussion I was having with the other users. To be very transparent with you and to show you that I realized it, I want to say that even though I was trying to hide it in order to avoid sanctions I was starting to feel like people were trying to silence me. I know that it is a very dangerous perception to have in WP. I'm sorry... I think it might have been caused by what appeared to me a bad faithed interaction I had on another subject I wrote about. Thank you again and I hope this will clear things up. Since I still want to help the encyclopedia grow on those particular subjects, If I find a candidate MEDRS reference, I will post it on RSN and also ask you or the other admins that offered help for advice on your/their user talk pages before having any discussion on this subject. I think that it is a proper course of action that will still permit me to help and at the same time protect me from my own behavior. Do you think this is appropriate? Thank you. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 17:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Boing! said Zebedee: Yes, I've been working on the radiation safety aspects of Industrial radiography lately. It's still a very important subject for me, but I have the right background to make it happen properly. I started my day job back now in that subject. This will probably naturally make me less interested in covid as my normal life is getting back on track. I'm getting tired of all the nonsense that's happening because of this. Thank you for your understanding. Feynstein ( talk) 17:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Personally, I think that the IP editor was a troll, and was trying to cause argument, and that any way of getting the dispute closed is probably reasonable. Robert McClenon ( talk) 14:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for moderating in the 'PodShare' dispute. Although I'm far from new to either writing or coding, I'm still learning some of the code of conduct on Wikipedia. I don't see how, in this instance, discussion could have continued on the Talk page when the other party was not open to a dialogue? Is there an intermediary step between an edit dispute and raising a ticket that I don't know about? Thanks again. Zedembee ( talk) 16:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Try to keep it clear and concise, and try to bring one issue at a time. The issues should be stated in a single question for clarity. Try to agree on which questions to address and in what order. Please discuss the content and avoid shooting the messenger. Please be aware of the the rules and refer to them if you are unsure. I would prefer it if you used the subsections I will be providing for your discussions. If it gets too much into a back a forth discussion please stop and wait for me to assess the current messages. I am not an expert in the field and I don't pretend to be one, so I will need your help for explanations on more particular concepts I might not be aware of. For now, can everyone involved write a short opening statement including any recent development. Try to keep the relevant discussions here, it will make everyone's life easier until we can find a solution. Feynstein ( talk) 17:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I noticed your comments on the talk page of WIV from last year, which partly inspired me to take up the argument there 1, 2, 3, and also the Misinformation page ( here), and there is also this long post on WP:RS/N, but I've since been topic banned from COVID-19 altogether (for WP:NPA). The problem on the WIV page is that there are a bunch of "debunker" type editors on Wikipedia who usually enjoy spending their time swatting away 9/11 truthers and Roswell peddlers, who find that subject of my topic ban to provide the stimulation of a new challenge. I've since created a few new articles, such as gain of function research, Laboratory-acquired infection and List of accidents and incidents involving laboratory biosecurity, which will educate readers more about biosecurity and public health concerns. ScrupulousScribe ( talk) 03:47, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ ScrupulousScribe: I added a comment after reading the discussions. I've read your discussions and got, as I expected, very angry at the outcome. Especially the arbitrary PubMed criteria, which has no basis in WP policy whatsoever. Hence I consider this whole thing as WP:STONEWALL. People are bad faithed to the bone and the same actors as last spring show up with the same rigid and admin power backed rhetoric. This is shameful. I hope Wikipedia will change when this is over. Feynstein ( talk) 06:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ ScrupulousScribe: I'd prefer if you not name editors directly on my talk page. Can you redact them please? The rest is ok. I have no problem with talking about the general attitude, but naming people is somewhere I don't go because we're on the internet after all and other people's mind is opaque to us. I will read the rest though, thanks! Feynstein ( talk) 07:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: I KNOW THAT. I was addressing your accusation of me being profringe HERE, which is appalling considering even the WSJ talks about it. If you'd notice I only talked about one peer reviewed article on the WIV talk page. I looked at the author, I went on her Research Gate and she is legit [4]. Her paper was even cited twice. Stonewalling this paper is bad for our viewers and you're part of it. We're not talking about JFK, we're talking about a the pileup of circumstancial evidence of a lab leak not even a year ago in a totalitarian police state and one peer reviewed paper that is probably one of many more to come. Feynstein ( talk) 08:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: Your categorization of fringe is faulty. By definition something peer reviewed in a decent journal cannot be fringe. Fringe science is rejected outright by the editor, doesn't even go into the double blind review process. I'm singling out this one because on your side there are only two articles that meet your own définition of MEDRS. Yes, your own because the PubMed part is bollocks and arbitrary. If I use your logic nothing else counts so you can flush out the statements, not MEDRS. You're only left with a handful of articles and one that goes against that is legit as can be. It should be included at least with a statement saying it's not a "mainstream" view in the littérature at the moment. Because there would at least not be cognitive dissonance between what our readers see in the mainstream news like the BBC and what they see in here. There are actual scientists who still think it's too shady that it emerged "poof" like that zoonitically in the middle of a 11 million people city. I'm getting really tired now I'm starting to think in French. I'll get back to you with this tomorrow. But believe you me we're looking like it's the CCP's ministry of truth that's editing this thing. Feynstein ( talk) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
And NPOV actually tells you to add this source as it's crĂ©dible and balances the viewpoints. You guys are simply Stonewalling at this point. I don't know why, but dismissing this source is malhonnĂȘte. Feynstein ( talk) 08:47, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: Quote me where I made that discussion about you. I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm saying the general mood in this particular page is Stonewalling. And, for your information, even if it's nonsense, homeopathy deserves a place here. I don't like Homeopathy as much as the next scientist, but if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it right and quote their literature. Do you think homeopathy should be removed from Wikipedia, is that what's your telling me here? Newsflash, people are still gonna do it and it's still going to help people with its placebo effect. Litterature on this is clear. So people are going to end up here looking for information and we're the ones that have to report it as much as their litterature does. Who are you to gatekeep these things? You're actually cornering yourself right now, we have an actual peer reviewed paper on a controversial topic and you guys are gate keeping it from appearing here. This is pure bad faith as if we're going to make our pages neutral we better make sure to show ALL credible sources in their appropriate context. This is why it's clearly Stonewalling. I don't see any other explanation for it. You guys moving the goalposts arbitrarily as you go. This is shameful and borderline narrative control. We know how the CCP works and we know they're probably doing PRECISELY that as we speak. The BBC journalists being roadblocked is one evidence of such narrative control. If you want to get in on their propaganda I don't care it's your choice, I'm not, and I'm calling the lot of you out. Feynstein ( talk) 13:43, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: Stonewalling can be done in very good faith, you should read up on it, I quoted it multiple times. I'm trying to show you how your point of view is locked on your own suppositions and how this is affecting our readers. If you're assuming that I do it in bad faith, then it's your own problem and I can't change your mind. However I would ask you to be respectful as this is not a conspiracy. The bio-weapon theory is more akin to a conspiracy theory than the lab leak hypothesis. You're denying a whole bunch of mainstream articles that are saying it's a credible outcome, and many reputable scientists in that field. And when there's even one peer-reviewed paper about it you're brushing it off. Look at yourself in the mirror before acusing someone of assuming bad faith. Feynstein ( talk) 13:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
And btw, quoting WP:PAG is typical of someone who engages in stonewalling. Until you realize you're helping to shape a narrative you'll steer your mind into a wall, made of stone obviously ;-) Feynstein ( talk) 14:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexbrn Congrats, I'm pissed off now. I understand why ScrupulousScribe got angry too. The atmosphere around this topis is as bad as when Donald Trump talked about it last year, even with all the mainstream sources talking about it now. I will take a step back to make sure I don't write anything that would be considered as crossing policy guidelines, but I've got my eyes on this topic and I will be bringing this up. You're being VERY disrespectful telling a nuclear physicist he's a conspiracy theorist. I hope you realize that. Feynstein ( talk) 14:19, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Arcturus: Yes and that's why there needs to be some people organizing into uncovering those shady practices by some editors. I'm trying to put forth reasonable points to some editors which who I discussed last year and remind them of what they told me at the time, that credible, peer-reviewed papers would be included. And that's why I came back with a good ol' TOLD YOU SO vengeance haha. There is a discussion up in my talk page where an admin specifically told me that if I had such sources it would be okay to include them. Feynstein ( talk) 16:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Oh and I seem to recall that the MEDRS requirement came out of concensus or something. Maybe on the Covid19 general page. I guess early on it was useful to fend off real consipracies, but right now the lab leak hypothesis has emerged into very mainstream publications. The scientist they call "Batwoman" came out saying the virus came from outside China, which basically torpedoed her reputation. Feynstein ( talk) 16:49, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The discussion at Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology appears to be getting a little heated, but please resist the desire to remove one editor's "attack" while posting an attack of your own. Generally, it is a very bad idea for a participant in an argument to decide to police their opponents' arguments. If you feel there is sufficient unpleasantry to warrant the removal of comments, please report it at WP:ANI and let an uninvolved third party make the decision. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 14:10, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor" I belive I'm in my right to do precisely so. Feynstein ( talk) 14:13, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, I simply don't adhere to a narrative that's being pushed by a disinformation/propaganda driven totalitarian police state. I've seen the papers at the start of the pandemic they were being too assertive about the origin too early not to draw any suspicion. And now we're what, like a year later and NO ONE has found a zoonotic trace anywhere. Viruses don't simply pop up into existence in the middle of a 11M people city where wildlife is limited. I think it should be clear to anyone at this point that there's a lot of shady stuff going on in China. But eh, I only have a M.Sc. in engineering what do I know about anything scientific compared to a Ph.D. in english. Feynstein ( talk) 15:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Feynstein: We seem to be well and truly up against the buffers with the WIV article. A small, but determined, group of stone-wallers are preventing any further development unless it meets their POV. As mentioned, they can always revert on sight anything they don't like, and any counter-revert is then against policy, especially when articles are under general sanctions. No argument will win with them, however valid it might be. This is abundantly clear from the way the debate has unfolded. I think a new approach is needed. This should involve taking the dispute to relevant noticeboards. In the first instance this would be the RS Noticeboard, and maybe then the NPOV Noticeboard (I currently have an entry there for Great Barrington Declaration, but progress does appear to be slow). Entries on these noticeboards can pull in significant numbers of disinterested editors. What do you think? Arcturus ( talk) 21:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
{{
unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. Â
Boing! said Zebedee (
talk) 14:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)@ Boing! said Zebedee: And I'm blocked from posting on ANI about your UNJUSTIFIED ACTIONS, how convenient Feynstein ( talk) 14:48, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Since May 2020 you have made 22 edits at Wuhan Institute of Virology and 213 edits at Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology and very little else that I can see. I have not studied your edits or comments but it is apparent that there is some confusion about how articles like this work. Everyone has an opinion on the origins of covid but no one has any evidence beyond what can be inferred from examining the virus (and genetic evidence will never offer a unversally accepted finding). Some opinions would be better based than others, and it is likely that one of the opinions is correctâalthough it is vanishingly unlikely that there will ever be consensus regarding what really happened. The fact that anyone can edit Wikipedia means articles must be conservative in what they state. New editors are often impatient to tell the world what might have happened but in a world of fake news that would mean amplifying opinions and confirming suggestions that gullible readers have picked up elsewhere (people usually absorb what aligns with their world view, and filter out what clashes). That is why discussing possibilities must end soon.
If you have a specific proposal regarding the article, based on reliable sources, please start a new section at the talk page and briefly state your view about what text should be added or what should be removed. Add your sources with a brief explanation of why they are suitable. Then wait for opinions. If consensus supports the proposal, it will be made. If it doesn't, it won't. In either case, you should drastically cut down your participation regarding that topic because it is under discretionary sanctions and that means excessive arguing will be stopped by an uninvolved administrator such as myself. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq: What do you think of what people are doing to me on WP:ANI? I'm getting lynched by an agry mob with dodgy arguments for pointing out someone who said that Stonewalling and baiting editors was fine. I'm starting to find it funny. This is all so stupid. No wonder articles are bad these days. Any time anyone has a legitimate point a group of editors having the same mindset and watching eachother's backs pileup on people until they either quit or get topic banned. The exact same tactic I reported lol. No one is seeing the irony? Feynstein ( talk) 03:09, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq: You just confirmed my suspicions. This IS about Trump. God. There's no bad Covid response to hide up here. I'm freaking stuck in my appartement from 8pm to 5am because there's no freaking thing to say about our Covid response ok? It's called a curfew and ITS THE ABSOLUTE FKING WORST. If this really is about a bunch of angry Dems not wanting anything that Trump said to get here I understand the pushback now. Possible/likely wtv is reason enough for it to be documented. Especially with peer review. I have absolutely NO SKIN in this freaking game because you know what, I don't care about the US. I genuinely don't. And I could even care less about your stupid ex president. I care about science. I care about scientists/editors being bullied by people who think like that. That everything about it is a Trump talking point. God it's nice to know. I feel a freaking thousand pounds lighter. I'll leave you guys alone, there's no arguing with you when you're stuck in your politics. Feynstein ( talk) 04:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
It's always about the US. Feynstein ( talk) 04:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
You always have to export your grievances everywhere. And now even Pfizer and Moderna are messing with us. We're dead last in the G7 vaccination campaign because the US can't respect their gdamn contractual obligations. That's why I'm still alone inside every night since January 8th. Seriously? And now you guys even want to export your politics in here? Yeah freaking right you are. Good night. See you I don't know when. Feynstein ( talk) 05:01, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
And no, I'm not a SPA. You should look at my contributions in French and in the commons. I actually created a page in French lol. Who knew! I really was committed to help. I don't think I'm willing to anymore.
And then there's also the DRN, where I did a bunch of stuff last year. I just... Man you guys really are the worst. I hate us politics.
@ Feynstein: A couple of editors are currently working on draft articles documenting the laboratory leak theory. ScrupulousScribe has this one - Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, and Forich has this - Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory. However, Forich's article is in his user space, so I'm not sure about the protocol of other editors contributing to it. I've mentioned the possibility of my adding some material to SS's draft on his talk page (he's blocked at the moment). You may also be interested in editing these documents. This could be a way to make progress on the issue. An option would be to combine material from both these drafts to create a new article - not a draft. At the moment I see no prospect of anything meaningful about the lab leak hypothesis being added to the WIV article. Stonewallng will continue indefinitely on that one. We may just have to add it to the list of bad Wikipedia articles. In case you missed it, this is the sort of thing we're up against: [8]. Compare this with the current version of the article, where the whole issue is now described as a "story". Arcturus ( talk) 18:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Feynstein: Hello! You blocked the "Bipolar Fuzzy Set" section in the "Fuzzy Set" article. I hope to resolve this issue. Would you be kindly consider the fact that "Bipolar Fuzzy Set" is one among 2-3 set theories recognized by the founder of fuzzy sets--Professor Lotfi A Zadeh (1921-2017, http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Fuzzy_logic). Would you please advise if I can improve my editing and learn to be a better editor? Regards. â Preceding unsigned comment added by W727 ( talk âą contribs) 19:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Just the trainwreck of me having an hypomanic episode because of how stupid the situation is. Just leave me all alone for a while I won't bother anyone anymore. Feynstein ( talk) 06:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, Feynstein. Per your request, I have closed that ANI discussion and have recorded your voluntary sanction at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Voluntary. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate. Best, El_C 21:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Hemiauchenia: it's been 3 months, I forgot about it. Just wanted to talk to RandomCanadian about something we spoke of back in February. Won't be commenting again, don't worry ;-)... won't be coming back here for a while too, do what you want. Feynstein ( talk) 18:34, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq: I said I forgot about the voluntary stuff. But even if what I wrote is in violation of it, no one gets to cross what I wrote. It's not how wp is supposed to work. And all of you guys know it's true. The politically charged subjects turned into battlegrounds where there is currently only one ideology ruling, the woke. And for the lab leak hypethesis, even if it became UBER mainstream recently it's still considered a conspiracy theory here. There's something obviously wrong with wikipedia at this point. What you know is also true is that you don't even read the politically charged subjects because you know they're bent on one side. When you use wp you probably only use it as a reference for technical stuff. Or to get a general idea of a subject and get references. That's what I do. It gets me into a reference train of scientific papers. And when I saw the Times Article about how Trump's media coverage tanked the lab leak hypethesis on the basis of "orange man bad" I had to tell random canadian. I already told him back in February that it looked like it's exactly what he did. And I finally had someone make that argument for me. And also a proof that it was widespread. So please just leave me alone now I told him what I had to tell him. Feynstein ( talk) 04:37, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello, PhysiqueUL09, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
You may also want to complete the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! MoneytreesđŽ TalkđČ Help out at CCI! 21:22, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Please carefully read this information:
A community discussion has authorised the use of
general sanctions for pages related to coronavirus disease 2019 (
COVID-19).
The specific details of these sanctions are described
here.
Doug Weller talk 09:54, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
For edit warring at Wuhan Institute of Virology to use prohibited pre-prints in violation of WP:MEDRS and WP:RS, and refusing to back down when it was explained to you that you are in breach, you are now subject to a short block. If you resume when the block expires, you will be blocked for longer. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 15:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller: Please help here I have been blocked unjustly.
@ Doug Weller: Please help here I have been blocked unjustly.
@ Boing! said Zebedee: And if no one comes very often on the page, like those I started to contribute in X-Ray, is there a delay where I can make the changes or does it have to stay in the limbo until someone else comes? Do I have to contact editors involved in closely related fields (like medical physics) to come and help me? I'm sorry if I ask too much questions :p I will go and read the concensus page now. Did you also remove the other place where my ban was public, like where I was refered? I think there might be more pages where my name is on but I lost track of it I think. Not the one with the 1-liner, which I saw you changed due to misunderstanding. I want to add comments about misunderstanding everywhere I was referenced, thanks!
Bonjour,
J'ai cru comprendre que tu étais francophone. UL09 ? Diplomé de l'Université de Louvain/Lyon/Lausanne en 2009 ? ;-)
Il faut absolument rester trÚs zen sur wikipédia sinon, ça finit toujours par mal tourner... Si tu as des doutes sur le sujet : sur le fond je ne sais pas, mais sur la forme, tu es dans ton tort. Tu as introduit une information contestée dans un article. La charge de la preuve est dans ton chef et il faut un consensus en pdd pour le réintroduire. La messe est dite. Il ne fallait faire de revert.
Mais en plus, l'article est sous "discretionary sanctions", ce qui veut dire en pratique plein pouvoirs aux sysops pour y maintenir l'ordre... Le revert, c'est te coller une cible sur le front. Et last but not least : avec une source primaire pour introduire une information controversée, c'est sans espoir quel que soit l'article et le sujet. Attention que je redis : je ne juge pas le fond (que je ne connais pas) mais juste la forme.
See you, RadXman ( talk) 16:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
@ RadXman: Merci beaucoup tout le monde. Et en passant c'est cool que tu aies Ă©crit sur ma page, as tu envie de m'aider Ă amĂ©liorer la page de l'inspection industrielle? J'ai enlevĂ© plusieurs trucs, mais je crois qu'il y a d'autres choses Ă enlever qui n'ont pas vraiment rapport, comme la longue discussion sur les radioisotopes... Ăa devrait ĂȘtre inclus mais pas avec autant de dĂ©tails chimiques selon moi... Ils sont utilisĂ©s comme une source de radiation, rien de plus et les gens dans l'industrie n'ont pas vraiment besoin de savoir les dĂ©tails sur ça, puisqu'ils existent sĂ»rement ailleurs. Il faudrait faire rĂ©fĂ©rence Ă ces autres pages par contre. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 16:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
@ RadXman: Yes it's true that for portable inspection solutions the natural sources are more convenient. But it seemed to me like all those cabinet machines buzzing about in different factories where being overlooked. And man there's TONS of stuff I can talk about on that subject XD. That's my field. I do not have experience with natural sources other than knowing about them and seeing them in action someplace. That's why I didn't want to remove too much about that subject and I left the chemical property stuff there, because I can't perfectly tell if it's really relevant. Thanks again for your comments! Happy editing :-)
You are within your rights to delete comments from your Talk page. You are NOT within your rights to move comments, i.e, MY comment, to another place. Please go to Talk: Industrial radiography and delete the content from there. Another example, because it appears you need examples: Suppose you comment on an article's or editor's Talk page, and then decide you want to amend what you have written. That is fine as long as no one has subsequently commented. Once there is a follow-on comment, you can add a new comment after that, but revising or deleting you comment is no longer permitted. David notMD ( talk) 19:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@
David notMD: Please point to me where you said that moving it was not fine:
"With certain exceptions, editors are free to delete content from being visible on their Talk pages (it will still be accessible via View history). Some editors leave everything, others delete everything, and some move older stuff to an archive of their Talk page." Btw I just deleted your comments as per your request. I would like you to be more specific next time you want to help. And please don't use this "because it appears you need examples" kind of rhetoric here, I found hints of
paternalism in this sentence, but then again I assume it was in good faith to help me. Thank you.
PhysiqueUL09 (
talk) 20:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Bus stop: Thank you. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 20:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is " National_People%27s_Congress_Decision_on_Hong_Kong_national_security_legislation".
Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!
You have resorted to a
textbook personal attack (see item 3 Using someone's political affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views
). Pinging
MarkH21 on this one. CaradhrasAiguo (
leave language) 22:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: Oh, sorry, it was unintentional. I changed it now, so that it is not directed towards you. Sorry. May I suggest you look at WP:CAN Before inviting someone that actively writes in your talk page? Thanks! PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:30, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Not directed towards youby using the pronoun while leaving the rest of the post intact is cutting corners.
Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. CaradhrasAiguo ( leave language) 22:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: Please, can you help me find a way to rephrase it so that it becomes relevant to the discussion? I am not saying this was your case, I simply wanted to convey the message that the arguments you have proposed during your WP:BLPTALK issue might have come from news that are related to [1]. It's not you that I tried to dismiss here, but your arguments that seem to come from disinformation. Or maybe it is not right to use this kind of language, I would refer to someone that has more experience in WP politics though. I really don't know how to say it properly, but I believe you know what I mean, care to help? I truly believe that here you need to WP:AGF because I learned from my past experiences and I try to apply WP policies accordingly. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: I removed the earlier part because it is irrelevant to the discussion here, you are accusing me of NPA, what I did before has nothing to do with it. You are not to judge my unintential action based on what has been said before, I will remove it again and if you revert it again I will ask for help from an administrator. Thank you PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: I removed perfectly in accordance with WP:TPO, because using past references to offenses is a personnal attack, see quote here from WP:TPO: "Removing harmful posts, including personal attacks, trolling, and vandalism." I found your inclusion of past references was harmful, so I removed it. It is perfectly compliant with WP:TPO. Thank you PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 22:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
@ CaradhrasAiguo: And since you seem to accuse me of spamming, I will do exactly that on my page. Removing what you added first was perfectly compliant with WP:RPA, since it's in my talk page. Please refrain from any other aggressive behaviour, you have been warned now a couple of times and I left a note on your talk page, the next step is administration. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 23:44, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I WP:DROPTHESTICK now. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 23:57, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Woah, it takes a lot of guts to do that! I just learned about it! Shuping Yang commencement speech controversy PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 02:41, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
This is a nice tool! Geant4 PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 02:47, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi PhysiqueUL09! The thread you created at the
Wikipedia:Teahouse,
|
Please refrain from using talk pages such as Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology for general discussion of the topic or other unrelated topics. They are for discussion related to improving the article in specific ways, based on reliable sources and the project policies and guidelines; they are not for use as a forum or chat room. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. See here for more information. Specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology&curid=62933053&diff=960899944&oldid=960887905 Doug Weller talk 15:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
That was an interesting video, particularly the part about how two related viruses could, if put together in the lab, either in an animal or in a petri dish, interact with each other to produce a third virus that would still be natural and would show no indications of having been influenced by humans.
Did you see the story about the Sir Richard Dearlove, the former head of MI6, saying not just the he thinks the virus escaped from the lab but that it was man-made? That was surprising. Of course nothing from that publication would be allowed into a Wikipedia article, but a mention of this is already in the Richard Dearlove article, referenced by this article which supplies a reference to this peer-reviewed study, the thrust of which I have been so far unable to grasp except that it claims to have identified "inserted sections placed on the SARS-CoV-2 Spike surface." I have no idea how robust this finding is. Can you decipher any of it?
I was under the impression that such manipulation has already been ruled out by numerous experts in this area saying that any man-made components of a virus would stand out. However it is clear that many of the scientists arguing against the possibility of any accidental release from the WIV have extensive relationships with the WIV, or with members of that community, and have much to lose if scientific collaboration with the Chinese is curtailed in any way â people like Peter Daszak and anybody connected with EcoHealth Alliance in particular. In addition, if it is shown that this virus did leak from a lab then all scientists in this area are likely to have their activities significantly curtailed. Then we have Jonna Mazet, director of PREDICT, which trained the scientists at the WIV. Whatâs she supposed to say, that oh well we must have screwed up in our security training?
The bottom line for me relates to the legal doctrine of Consciousness of guilt. Why the refusal to cooperate? Why was China forbidding an investigation into the origins of the virus? Why did they go in and take some kind of action at the WIV (if they did) to clean things up or destroy evidence? It actually could be something as simple as a concern on their part that the WIV would be unfairly blamed, kind of like the innocent person who finds the murder weapon and buries it because heâs afraid he will be blamed, and is discovered in the process. I think there will be more shoes to drop. Whether the U.S. government releases whatever they have is the big unknown. As soon as they do they lose that avenue of spying on China, and would anything be accomplished by it anyway? Whatever evidence it is, China will deny it and claim that it was manufactured.
Here's an interesting collection of information if you have not already seen it. â Swood100 ( talk) 15:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
When I unblocked you on 21 May, it was after your agreement to avoid Covid-19 subjects. Now, the unblock was not actually conditional on that, so I'm not going to issue any sanctions based on the fact that you changed your mind and have been active in that area. However, I am disappinted to see that you have been very actively pursuing a fringe subject (the allegations of a lab origin for the virus), against the balance of reliable sources. You have been doing this using primary sources, and even preprints which are expressly forbidden for use in Covid-19 articles. You have even been editing warring over it, and accusing other people of vandalism - people who are merely trying to uphold our requirement for reliable sources. And it's not just MEDRS, you have been arguing for non-reliable sources (as per WP:RS) in a persistent manner, verging on the tendentious.
While I was investigating this, I see you made a report at WP:ANI. As a result of that report, you have been warned that you are close to a topic ban from Covid-19 subjects. I also see that you have agreed to drop the stick, which is a positive step. Going forward, please remember that Wikipedia is not supposed to be at the leading edge of research, develpment, speculation, theorising etc. That is by design. Wikipedia does, and should, lag behind current speculation and investigation. We are only interested in the balance of what reliable sources say (and in the case of Covid-19 subjects, that's almost entirely WP:MEDRS, certainly WP:RS, and no primary sources, no preprints). We're also not interested in the opinions or interpretations of individual editors, as we ourselves are not reliable sources. This comment by JoelleJay sums it up very well, and I recommend you take it to heart.
I do note your statement on your user page, "I suffer from this, it will sometimes make me seem very intense". I know what that's like, having seen a family member aflicted with it for decades. I also note your request "Please take the time to advise me, or tell me to slow down if you ever feel I am being too intense". I will also bear that in mind. But, and this might seem cruel (and if it does, it's unintentional), if you suffer from a condition that makes it difficult to moderate your behaviour sometimes, you can't really expect everyone else to try to do it for you.
So, to conclude, you do need to be aware that if you are involved in any further disruption (even unintended disruption), you will very likely end up with a topic ban. I hope this all makes sense, and I thank you for listening and understanding. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 13:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Boing! said Zebedee: Thank you very much for this. I realized now that I was having a fixation on this. It affected my perception of the discussion I was having with the other users. To be very transparent with you and to show you that I realized it, I want to say that even though I was trying to hide it in order to avoid sanctions I was starting to feel like people were trying to silence me. I know that it is a very dangerous perception to have in WP. I'm sorry... I think it might have been caused by what appeared to me a bad faithed interaction I had on another subject I wrote about. Thank you again and I hope this will clear things up. Since I still want to help the encyclopedia grow on those particular subjects, If I find a candidate MEDRS reference, I will post it on RSN and also ask you or the other admins that offered help for advice on your/their user talk pages before having any discussion on this subject. I think that it is a proper course of action that will still permit me to help and at the same time protect me from my own behavior. Do you think this is appropriate? Thank you. PhysiqueUL09 ( talk) 17:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Boing! said Zebedee: Yes, I've been working on the radiation safety aspects of Industrial radiography lately. It's still a very important subject for me, but I have the right background to make it happen properly. I started my day job back now in that subject. This will probably naturally make me less interested in covid as my normal life is getting back on track. I'm getting tired of all the nonsense that's happening because of this. Thank you for your understanding. Feynstein ( talk) 17:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Personally, I think that the IP editor was a troll, and was trying to cause argument, and that any way of getting the dispute closed is probably reasonable. Robert McClenon ( talk) 14:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for moderating in the 'PodShare' dispute. Although I'm far from new to either writing or coding, I'm still learning some of the code of conduct on Wikipedia. I don't see how, in this instance, discussion could have continued on the Talk page when the other party was not open to a dialogue? Is there an intermediary step between an edit dispute and raising a ticket that I don't know about? Thanks again. Zedembee ( talk) 16:09, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Try to keep it clear and concise, and try to bring one issue at a time. The issues should be stated in a single question for clarity. Try to agree on which questions to address and in what order. Please discuss the content and avoid shooting the messenger. Please be aware of the the rules and refer to them if you are unsure. I would prefer it if you used the subsections I will be providing for your discussions. If it gets too much into a back a forth discussion please stop and wait for me to assess the current messages. I am not an expert in the field and I don't pretend to be one, so I will need your help for explanations on more particular concepts I might not be aware of. For now, can everyone involved write a short opening statement including any recent development. Try to keep the relevant discussions here, it will make everyone's life easier until we can find a solution. Feynstein ( talk) 17:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
I noticed your comments on the talk page of WIV from last year, which partly inspired me to take up the argument there 1, 2, 3, and also the Misinformation page ( here), and there is also this long post on WP:RS/N, but I've since been topic banned from COVID-19 altogether (for WP:NPA). The problem on the WIV page is that there are a bunch of "debunker" type editors on Wikipedia who usually enjoy spending their time swatting away 9/11 truthers and Roswell peddlers, who find that subject of my topic ban to provide the stimulation of a new challenge. I've since created a few new articles, such as gain of function research, Laboratory-acquired infection and List of accidents and incidents involving laboratory biosecurity, which will educate readers more about biosecurity and public health concerns. ScrupulousScribe ( talk) 03:47, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ ScrupulousScribe: I added a comment after reading the discussions. I've read your discussions and got, as I expected, very angry at the outcome. Especially the arbitrary PubMed criteria, which has no basis in WP policy whatsoever. Hence I consider this whole thing as WP:STONEWALL. People are bad faithed to the bone and the same actors as last spring show up with the same rigid and admin power backed rhetoric. This is shameful. I hope Wikipedia will change when this is over. Feynstein ( talk) 06:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ ScrupulousScribe: I'd prefer if you not name editors directly on my talk page. Can you redact them please? The rest is ok. I have no problem with talking about the general attitude, but naming people is somewhere I don't go because we're on the internet after all and other people's mind is opaque to us. I will read the rest though, thanks! Feynstein ( talk) 07:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: I KNOW THAT. I was addressing your accusation of me being profringe HERE, which is appalling considering even the WSJ talks about it. If you'd notice I only talked about one peer reviewed article on the WIV talk page. I looked at the author, I went on her Research Gate and she is legit [4]. Her paper was even cited twice. Stonewalling this paper is bad for our viewers and you're part of it. We're not talking about JFK, we're talking about a the pileup of circumstancial evidence of a lab leak not even a year ago in a totalitarian police state and one peer reviewed paper that is probably one of many more to come. Feynstein ( talk) 08:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: Your categorization of fringe is faulty. By definition something peer reviewed in a decent journal cannot be fringe. Fringe science is rejected outright by the editor, doesn't even go into the double blind review process. I'm singling out this one because on your side there are only two articles that meet your own définition of MEDRS. Yes, your own because the PubMed part is bollocks and arbitrary. If I use your logic nothing else counts so you can flush out the statements, not MEDRS. You're only left with a handful of articles and one that goes against that is legit as can be. It should be included at least with a statement saying it's not a "mainstream" view in the littérature at the moment. Because there would at least not be cognitive dissonance between what our readers see in the mainstream news like the BBC and what they see in here. There are actual scientists who still think it's too shady that it emerged "poof" like that zoonitically in the middle of a 11 million people city. I'm getting really tired now I'm starting to think in French. I'll get back to you with this tomorrow. But believe you me we're looking like it's the CCP's ministry of truth that's editing this thing. Feynstein ( talk) 08:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
And NPOV actually tells you to add this source as it's crĂ©dible and balances the viewpoints. You guys are simply Stonewalling at this point. I don't know why, but dismissing this source is malhonnĂȘte. Feynstein ( talk) 08:47, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: Quote me where I made that discussion about you. I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm saying the general mood in this particular page is Stonewalling. And, for your information, even if it's nonsense, homeopathy deserves a place here. I don't like Homeopathy as much as the next scientist, but if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it right and quote their literature. Do you think homeopathy should be removed from Wikipedia, is that what's your telling me here? Newsflash, people are still gonna do it and it's still going to help people with its placebo effect. Litterature on this is clear. So people are going to end up here looking for information and we're the ones that have to report it as much as their litterature does. Who are you to gatekeep these things? You're actually cornering yourself right now, we have an actual peer reviewed paper on a controversial topic and you guys are gate keeping it from appearing here. This is pure bad faith as if we're going to make our pages neutral we better make sure to show ALL credible sources in their appropriate context. This is why it's clearly Stonewalling. I don't see any other explanation for it. You guys moving the goalposts arbitrarily as you go. This is shameful and borderline narrative control. We know how the CCP works and we know they're probably doing PRECISELY that as we speak. The BBC journalists being roadblocked is one evidence of such narrative control. If you want to get in on their propaganda I don't care it's your choice, I'm not, and I'm calling the lot of you out. Feynstein ( talk) 13:43, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Alexbrn: Stonewalling can be done in very good faith, you should read up on it, I quoted it multiple times. I'm trying to show you how your point of view is locked on your own suppositions and how this is affecting our readers. If you're assuming that I do it in bad faith, then it's your own problem and I can't change your mind. However I would ask you to be respectful as this is not a conspiracy. The bio-weapon theory is more akin to a conspiracy theory than the lab leak hypothesis. You're denying a whole bunch of mainstream articles that are saying it's a credible outcome, and many reputable scientists in that field. And when there's even one peer-reviewed paper about it you're brushing it off. Look at yourself in the mirror before acusing someone of assuming bad faith. Feynstein ( talk) 13:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
And btw, quoting WP:PAG is typical of someone who engages in stonewalling. Until you realize you're helping to shape a narrative you'll steer your mind into a wall, made of stone obviously ;-) Feynstein ( talk) 14:01, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexbrn Congrats, I'm pissed off now. I understand why ScrupulousScribe got angry too. The atmosphere around this topis is as bad as when Donald Trump talked about it last year, even with all the mainstream sources talking about it now. I will take a step back to make sure I don't write anything that would be considered as crossing policy guidelines, but I've got my eyes on this topic and I will be bringing this up. You're being VERY disrespectful telling a nuclear physicist he's a conspiracy theorist. I hope you realize that. Feynstein ( talk) 14:19, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Arcturus: Yes and that's why there needs to be some people organizing into uncovering those shady practices by some editors. I'm trying to put forth reasonable points to some editors which who I discussed last year and remind them of what they told me at the time, that credible, peer-reviewed papers would be included. And that's why I came back with a good ol' TOLD YOU SO vengeance haha. There is a discussion up in my talk page where an admin specifically told me that if I had such sources it would be okay to include them. Feynstein ( talk) 16:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Oh and I seem to recall that the MEDRS requirement came out of concensus or something. Maybe on the Covid19 general page. I guess early on it was useful to fend off real consipracies, but right now the lab leak hypothesis has emerged into very mainstream publications. The scientist they call "Batwoman" came out saying the virus came from outside China, which basically torpedoed her reputation. Feynstein ( talk) 16:49, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The discussion at Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology appears to be getting a little heated, but please resist the desire to remove one editor's "attack" while posting an attack of your own. Generally, it is a very bad idea for a participant in an argument to decide to police their opponents' arguments. If you feel there is sufficient unpleasantry to warrant the removal of comments, please report it at WP:ANI and let an uninvolved third party make the decision. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 14:10, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor" I belive I'm in my right to do precisely so. Feynstein ( talk) 14:13, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, I simply don't adhere to a narrative that's being pushed by a disinformation/propaganda driven totalitarian police state. I've seen the papers at the start of the pandemic they were being too assertive about the origin too early not to draw any suspicion. And now we're what, like a year later and NO ONE has found a zoonotic trace anywhere. Viruses don't simply pop up into existence in the middle of a 11M people city where wildlife is limited. I think it should be clear to anyone at this point that there's a lot of shady stuff going on in China. But eh, I only have a M.Sc. in engineering what do I know about anything scientific compared to a Ph.D. in english. Feynstein ( talk) 15:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Feynstein: We seem to be well and truly up against the buffers with the WIV article. A small, but determined, group of stone-wallers are preventing any further development unless it meets their POV. As mentioned, they can always revert on sight anything they don't like, and any counter-revert is then against policy, especially when articles are under general sanctions. No argument will win with them, however valid it might be. This is abundantly clear from the way the debate has unfolded. I think a new approach is needed. This should involve taking the dispute to relevant noticeboards. In the first instance this would be the RS Noticeboard, and maybe then the NPOV Noticeboard (I currently have an entry there for Great Barrington Declaration, but progress does appear to be slow). Entries on these noticeboards can pull in significant numbers of disinterested editors. What do you think? Arcturus ( talk) 21:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
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Boing! said Zebedee (
talk) 14:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)@ Boing! said Zebedee: And I'm blocked from posting on ANI about your UNJUSTIFIED ACTIONS, how convenient Feynstein ( talk) 14:48, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Since May 2020 you have made 22 edits at Wuhan Institute of Virology and 213 edits at Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology and very little else that I can see. I have not studied your edits or comments but it is apparent that there is some confusion about how articles like this work. Everyone has an opinion on the origins of covid but no one has any evidence beyond what can be inferred from examining the virus (and genetic evidence will never offer a unversally accepted finding). Some opinions would be better based than others, and it is likely that one of the opinions is correctâalthough it is vanishingly unlikely that there will ever be consensus regarding what really happened. The fact that anyone can edit Wikipedia means articles must be conservative in what they state. New editors are often impatient to tell the world what might have happened but in a world of fake news that would mean amplifying opinions and confirming suggestions that gullible readers have picked up elsewhere (people usually absorb what aligns with their world view, and filter out what clashes). That is why discussing possibilities must end soon.
If you have a specific proposal regarding the article, based on reliable sources, please start a new section at the talk page and briefly state your view about what text should be added or what should be removed. Add your sources with a brief explanation of why they are suitable. Then wait for opinions. If consensus supports the proposal, it will be made. If it doesn't, it won't. In either case, you should drastically cut down your participation regarding that topic because it is under discretionary sanctions and that means excessive arguing will be stopped by an uninvolved administrator such as myself. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq: What do you think of what people are doing to me on WP:ANI? I'm getting lynched by an agry mob with dodgy arguments for pointing out someone who said that Stonewalling and baiting editors was fine. I'm starting to find it funny. This is all so stupid. No wonder articles are bad these days. Any time anyone has a legitimate point a group of editors having the same mindset and watching eachother's backs pileup on people until they either quit or get topic banned. The exact same tactic I reported lol. No one is seeing the irony? Feynstein ( talk) 03:09, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq: You just confirmed my suspicions. This IS about Trump. God. There's no bad Covid response to hide up here. I'm freaking stuck in my appartement from 8pm to 5am because there's no freaking thing to say about our Covid response ok? It's called a curfew and ITS THE ABSOLUTE FKING WORST. If this really is about a bunch of angry Dems not wanting anything that Trump said to get here I understand the pushback now. Possible/likely wtv is reason enough for it to be documented. Especially with peer review. I have absolutely NO SKIN in this freaking game because you know what, I don't care about the US. I genuinely don't. And I could even care less about your stupid ex president. I care about science. I care about scientists/editors being bullied by people who think like that. That everything about it is a Trump talking point. God it's nice to know. I feel a freaking thousand pounds lighter. I'll leave you guys alone, there's no arguing with you when you're stuck in your politics. Feynstein ( talk) 04:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
It's always about the US. Feynstein ( talk) 04:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
You always have to export your grievances everywhere. And now even Pfizer and Moderna are messing with us. We're dead last in the G7 vaccination campaign because the US can't respect their gdamn contractual obligations. That's why I'm still alone inside every night since January 8th. Seriously? And now you guys even want to export your politics in here? Yeah freaking right you are. Good night. See you I don't know when. Feynstein ( talk) 05:01, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
And no, I'm not a SPA. You should look at my contributions in French and in the commons. I actually created a page in French lol. Who knew! I really was committed to help. I don't think I'm willing to anymore.
And then there's also the DRN, where I did a bunch of stuff last year. I just... Man you guys really are the worst. I hate us politics.
@ Feynstein: A couple of editors are currently working on draft articles documenting the laboratory leak theory. ScrupulousScribe has this one - Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory, and Forich has this - Draft:COVID-19 lab leak theory. However, Forich's article is in his user space, so I'm not sure about the protocol of other editors contributing to it. I've mentioned the possibility of my adding some material to SS's draft on his talk page (he's blocked at the moment). You may also be interested in editing these documents. This could be a way to make progress on the issue. An option would be to combine material from both these drafts to create a new article - not a draft. At the moment I see no prospect of anything meaningful about the lab leak hypothesis being added to the WIV article. Stonewallng will continue indefinitely on that one. We may just have to add it to the list of bad Wikipedia articles. In case you missed it, this is the sort of thing we're up against: [8]. Compare this with the current version of the article, where the whole issue is now described as a "story". Arcturus ( talk) 18:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Feynstein: Hello! You blocked the "Bipolar Fuzzy Set" section in the "Fuzzy Set" article. I hope to resolve this issue. Would you be kindly consider the fact that "Bipolar Fuzzy Set" is one among 2-3 set theories recognized by the founder of fuzzy sets--Professor Lotfi A Zadeh (1921-2017, http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Fuzzy_logic). Would you please advise if I can improve my editing and learn to be a better editor? Regards. â Preceding unsigned comment added by W727 ( talk âą contribs) 19:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Just the trainwreck of me having an hypomanic episode because of how stupid the situation is. Just leave me all alone for a while I won't bother anyone anymore. Feynstein ( talk) 06:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, Feynstein. Per your request, I have closed that ANI discussion and have recorded your voluntary sanction at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Voluntary. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate. Best, El_C 21:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Hemiauchenia: it's been 3 months, I forgot about it. Just wanted to talk to RandomCanadian about something we spoke of back in February. Won't be commenting again, don't worry ;-)... won't be coming back here for a while too, do what you want. Feynstein ( talk) 18:34, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Johnuniq: I said I forgot about the voluntary stuff. But even if what I wrote is in violation of it, no one gets to cross what I wrote. It's not how wp is supposed to work. And all of you guys know it's true. The politically charged subjects turned into battlegrounds where there is currently only one ideology ruling, the woke. And for the lab leak hypethesis, even if it became UBER mainstream recently it's still considered a conspiracy theory here. There's something obviously wrong with wikipedia at this point. What you know is also true is that you don't even read the politically charged subjects because you know they're bent on one side. When you use wp you probably only use it as a reference for technical stuff. Or to get a general idea of a subject and get references. That's what I do. It gets me into a reference train of scientific papers. And when I saw the Times Article about how Trump's media coverage tanked the lab leak hypethesis on the basis of "orange man bad" I had to tell random canadian. I already told him back in February that it looked like it's exactly what he did. And I finally had someone make that argument for me. And also a proof that it was widespread. So please just leave me alone now I told him what I had to tell him. Feynstein ( talk) 04:37, 31 May 2021 (UTC)