Hello Esterson, and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm sure that your edits to Mileva Marić were well-intentioned. Unfortunately, I do not think that your blog counts as a reliable source, so I have removed much of what you added. Please see the Reliable Sources guideline here [1]. Skoojal ( talk) 04:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Constructive contributions are appreciated and strongly encouraged, but your recent edit to the userpage of another user may be considered vandalism. Specifically, your edit to User talk:Skoojal may be offensive or unwelcome. If you are the user, please log in under that account and proceed to make the changes. Please use the sandbox for any tests you may want to do. Take a look at our introduction page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thank you. De728631 ( talk) 09:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Skoojal
I am bemused by this comment. It's a long time since I edited the Freud page so I don't know what you mean by "the Crews matter" (and at that time I had not discovered the talk pages). I am not the least interested in "settling scores", only with providing reliable information as far as it can be ascertained. In both the cases of Freud and Mileva Maric received historical accounts and frequently recycled claims do not necessarily reflect the true facts based on close scrutiny of the historical documents (often far from it). Esterson ( talk) 11:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Will Beeback: You wrote: "Have you two editors met in another forum? If so, please remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground."
Having followed up the links that you posted on 5 September, I am now in a position to understand that remark (and I can fully understand why you would be concerned). As you are presumably aware I didn't contribute to the Crews issue on Wikipedia (not that I can recall, anyway), but Skoojal chose to cite my name in connection with it: "When I debated this with Allen Esterson..."
Having now read Skoojal's comments on the Crews Talk webpage, I must express my concern about the tone of his comments. The fact that he refers to a debate with me identifies him as Richard R. Warnotck, with whom I had exchanges on this issue on the Butterflies and Wheels "letters" page. My concern is particularly with this sentence: "I thought this was willful obscurantism on Esterson's part, motivated by the desperate desire to hide a truth that it would be disastrous for Crews's (and Esterson's) credibility to admit." I agree that Wikipedia is not a battleground, but I really must express my dismay that Skoojal should make a derogatory statement about my motivations, especially as it is on the basis of his own misreading of Crews. Please bear with me while I give the quote in full that Skoojal claims demonstrates Crews' "homophobia" (and my bad faith):
"Critics have pointed out that the third edition of the DSM (1980), like its predecessors, reflects political as well as medical and scientific opinion. When smoking replaces homosexuality as a mental aberration, more of the credit must go to caucuses than to new findings. For that very reason, however, we can safely regard the DSM's demotion of 'neurosis' as a sign of waning psychoanalytic influence." (Analysis Terminable and Interminable, 1986, p. 36, n1.)
Crews' comments are a criticism of a characteristic of the DSM, that on occasion it follows societal fashion, e.g., previously smoking was not an aberration and homosexuality was, but with changes in attitudes, now smoking is an aberration and homosexuality is not. This says absolutely nothing about Crews' view of homosexuality (and certainly not, as Skoojal claims, that Crews "was objecting to the replacement of homosexuality by smoking as a mental illness"). (Elsewhere Crews makes plain his view when he writes that among serious adverse influences of psychoanalytic orthodoxy: "Thanks to the once imposing prestige of psychoanalysis... gays have been told that their sexual preference is a mental disorder [and] women have accepted a view of themselves as inherently envious, passive and amoral." ["The Memory Wars, 1995, p. 71])
Incidentally, it speaks volumes that out of the many reams that Crews has written on Freud and psychoanalysis, Skoojal should single out this one sentence (which he misreads as denigrating homosexuality) as "among the most relevant" in Crews's books, "since they concern his reasons for attacking psychoanalysis..." (as if he hadn't written many hundreds of sentences doing that).
Will Beeback: Please excuse the length of the above, and note that I intend saying no more on this (and shall not respond to any reply by Skoojal). I just wanted you to be clear that it was not I who introduced the element of a "battleground", it was Skoojal with what I regard as offensive, and totally unjustified, aspersions on my motivations. I leave you to judge my motivations from my argument above. Esterson ( talk) 09:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand this point. In his last major work, An Outline of Psychoanalysis, Freud wrote in relation to the process of development during the postulated three phases of infancy: "Inhibitions in its development manifest themselves as the many sorts of disturbance in sexual life. When this is so, we find fixations of the libido to conditions in earlier phases, whose urge, which is independent of the normal sexual aim, is described as perversion. One such developmental inhibition, for instance, is homosexuality when it is manifest." (Freud 1940 (1938), Standard Edition vol. 23, p. 155.) Esterson ( talk) 08:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Articles published in peer review journals are among the best sources available. The fact that an article is also posted on its author's website is irrelevant, but the citation should be to the journal and not to the website (though you can add a link to the website for the convenience of readers). Also, if you're going to be editing here much you might want to learn a bit more about wiki markup (which is different from HTML). See Wikipedia:Cheatsheet. Also, the citation and footnoting techniques are unusual here. See WP:CITE. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson: I think your additions to the article on Jeffrey Masson need to be, at the very least, reworded. I am resisting the temptation to simply remove them, but I think that they have been added to the 'Life and Work' section in a way that does not read smoothly. To include the sentence that starts, 'However a number of Freud scholars and other academics have argued that...' immediately after the part about Masson's response to Webster seems to suggest that it is because of any failings that particular edition of The Assault on Truth may suffer from that Masson may have failed to understand the true nature of the seduction theory, and I presume that this is not your point. Skoojal ( talk) 22:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll be a little more clear about where the problem lies: Including the sentence starting 'However a number of Freud scholars and other academics have...' immediately following Masson's response to Webster makes it sound as though it is the failure of Masson's reponse to Webster that is responsible for his not understanding the true nature of the seduction theory. That is an unfortunate thing to imply. I will remove this unless it can be worded in a way that isn't misleading. Skoojal ( talk) 23:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal: I shall reply first to your second paragraph, as it relates to what I already posted above. In the paragraph in question on the Jeffrey Masson page, you posted as follows:
"Masson criticised Webster for blaming him for the interest in recovered memory and for unjustifiably concluding that Freud's early patients had not been sexually abused." [Citation, 1998 edition of Masson's The Assault on Truth]
On this you now say: "I'm not saying that I read the passage that way, only that someone could read it that way." But the sentence says "Masson criticised Webster for…" – nothing there about "could be read" that way. In any case, to provide an unreferenced reading on the grounds that a passage "could" be read that way is so open-ended that it leaves it open for an editor to make a statement of virtually any idiosyncratic reading on the grounds that it could be read that way. Again, if you're saying that you didn't read it that way, how strange to write it in that manner: why didn't you write the sentence in question in terms that you did read? And how interesting that you should seemingly distance yourself from the import of the sentence now that I have pointed out that the Masson assertion about Webster that you specifically mentioned is erroneous.
You write: "Things have to made perfectly clear; they cannot be worded in a way that is easily subject to misinterpretation... That would be a good enough reason to remove your addition, although I would prefer to wait and let you rewrite it rather than remove it immediately." What this means in practice is that any time you choose to interpret something in a way that enables you find something to criticise, it gives you grounds for deleting the posted passage. That gives you virtual carte blanche to remove almost anything you take issue with.
You write: "You seem to accept that that section needs some rewording anyway…"
The last sentence of the paragraph you posted as it stands is correct: Masson did criticise Webster for supposedly "unjustifiably concluding that Freud's early patients had not been sexually abused." The fault lies not with this sentence itself, but with the fact that, contrary to what Masson claims, Webster nowhere concluded this in his book Why Freud Was Wrong. Esterson ( talk) 17:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Now to the second paragraph you wrote above (23.01, 19 September): "Regarding the first point of your response, ('My posting therefore applies to the Postscript as a whole, not merely to Masson's response to Webster'), all I can say is that this is not automatically clear from the article on Masson. It could be interpreted (and many readers may interpret it) as applying only or primarily to Webster (please allow for the fact that not all readers of Wikipedia are likely to interpret things in the same way you would; anything that can be misunderstood will be by someone)."
There is a paragraph on the Jeffrey Masson page. The paragraph I posted clearly alludes to that paragraph as a whole. This is evident from the fact that Webster is not mentioned in the paragraph I posted. What is happening here is that you are choosing to interpret something in such a way that you purportedly find "good enough reason to remove [my] addition." As I already noted, you are thereby giving yourself carte blanche to remove anything you take issue with, simply by choosing to interpret in such a way as to give yourself justification for removing another editor's posting. Esterson ( talk) 17:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Now I have re-examined the whole of Masson's 1998 Postscript, and realised that the paragraph you posted contains an inaccuracy I had not previously recognised, I may reword the current paragraph that I posted to spell out more comprehensively an alternative position to Masson 1998 (as taken by the ten Freud scholars and academics I referenced on one issue or another in my posted paragraph). Esterson ( talk) 18:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson: this is to let you know that I have started an article about you. I am informing you as a courtesy. Skoojal ( talk) 06:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes of my published work that he can show "show how it has been used by Frederick Crews, Richard Webster, or Malcolm Macmillan", thereby demonstrating both his limited knowledge and the inappropriateness of there being an Allen Esterson Wikipedia.
Macmillan's magnum opus Freud Evaluated was published in 1991, before I had published anything, and thus does not cite my name. My name is cited in a short section of a lengthy Afterword (40 pages) to the 1997 edition. In that short section alone Macmillan mentions, among several other authors, David Livingstone Smith, Morton Schatzman, Han Israëls, Max Scharnberg, Frank Cioffi, Mikkel Borch-Jacobsen, Clark Glymour and Edward Shorter. All of these are psychologists or philosophers, mostly with prestigious academic positions, who have each published far more books and journal articles than I, but do not have a Wikipedia page.
Richard Webster's book contains a brief mention of my work among scores of other authors. Webster's book would not have been different in any significant respect had my book not been published two years earlier.
When Skoojal has proposed Wikipedia pages on, e.g., Frank Cioffi and Clark Glymour (both of whose contributions to Freud studies are but one part of a much wider publication history), and others among the many scores of academics in this field alone with far greater credentials worthy of a Wikipedia page, I'll take seriously his starting an Allen Esterson page.
I shall now take steps to have the page removed. Esterson ( talk) 16:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
DGG: Thanks for dropping by. I accept your point, but the fact remains that I have never had an academic position, have very few publications to my name, and have virtually no public profile (nor eminence) such as would warrant a Wikipedia page. Esterson ( talk) 11:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson, I have reverted your edits to Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, on the grounds that they are a probable violation of Wikipedia's Biography of Living Persons policy. I think you should seriously consider whether it is appropriate for you to continue editing this article, as you appear to have a conflict of interest. Skoojal ( talk) 00:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
<--Outdenting
You say that every word is a BLP violation. Where is the BLP violation in this sentence? You seem to be saying that the inclusion of criticism of the subject's academic research is a BLP violation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
A response to Skoojal's postings above:
Skoojal writes: "Esterson is one of a group of scholars who for years have been trying to debunk Masson's views about Freud and the seduction theory. They've taken quite an aggressive stance against Masson, and Esterson is carrying this over into the article."
The paragraphs I wrote were to balance Skoojal's posting that gave Masson's arguments against Webster on the seduction theory episode. They comprised of statements of what Webster actually wrote (as against what Masson said he wrote).
What Skoojal refers to as "debunking" on my part are scholarly articles in prestigious history of psychology journals: History of Psychology, History of Psychiatry, History of the Human Sciences.
Just taking the articles I cited in my references in the paragraphs Skoojal has deleted, here are the publications from which they were taken:
History of Psychiatry; Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association; Psychoanalytic Review; History of the Human Sciences; Review of General Psychology; Journal of Psychoanalytic Anthropology; Journal of Modern History; Journal of the History of Ideas.
The books cited were published by: International Universities Press; Routledge.
Skoojal writes of the authors in question: "They've taken quite an aggressive stance against Masson..."
If anyone would care to examine the articles in question (the citations for which can be found in the deleted paragraphs in the "history" page of Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson) they will find they are soberly worded scholarly criticisms of Masson's account of the seduction theory episode on the basis of an examination of the original documentary evidence.
In response to the question "Do you have a source for your characterization of this group of scholars?", Skoojal writes: "All I'll say for the moment is that this is my impression of them, having read some of what they've written."
Perhaps Skoojal will tell us which of the articles and relevant book chapters he has read by the following authors I cited:
Israëls, H. and Schatzman, M.; McCullough, M.L.; Paul, R. A.; Salyard, A.; Schimek, J. G.; Toews, J.E.; Triplett, H.; Eissler, K.; Smith, D. L.
Skoojal writes: "The titles of some of their articles alone would support this. 'Jeffrey Masson's Assault on Truth' is part of one of them. That's what I'd call aggressive."
The subtitle in question is an allusion to Masson's book The Assault on Truth. Perhaps Skoojal would like to tell just one other title of articles I have cited that is "aggressive" (only three titles out of around eight even mention Masson, as they are about the Freud's seduction theory generally). Esterson ( talk) 07:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes: "It's a BLP violation simply in that it takes sides in a controversy."
Skoojal posted three paragraphs on the Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson page about Masson's Postscript to his 1998 edition of The Assault on Truth, two of which give Masson's criticisms of Richard Webster's view of the seduction theory episode in Why Freud is Wrong. Why, on Skoojal's reckoning, does this not amount to taking sides in favour of Masson against Webster?
Being perfectly familiar with this material (at the time I posted comments on this very Postscript on the Human-nature.com "Freud's Seduction Theory" website), I recognised immediately that most of what is (correctly) stated as how Masson described Webster's views were erroneous descriptions, as can be seen from the relevant passages in Why Freud Was Wrong. To provide balance to the paragraphs in question, I took each of Masson's points as described and provided Webster's actual views, with citations from Webster's book supported by citations of scholarly articles by other authors.
I tried to be careful to present the items as Webster's views. I am perfectly happy to reconsider some rewording of the paragraphs I posted (in fact I have made a couple of amendments already) if I was not completely successful in this, or to consider other comments about these paragraphs. However, Skoojal's immediate reverting of my paragraphs precluded this. Esterson ( talk) 16:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal: You wrote: "You offered an opinionated interpetation of both men's work that is not appropriate to a BLP."
I have looked again at the paragraphs I posted, and can find nowhere where I offered an interpretation of either of the two authors. As I explained above, I took each item on which you provided Masson's criticism of what he said were Webster's views, and simply provided Webster's actual view as he stated it in Why Freud Was Wrong (references given, plus supporting references from scholarly sources). In one instance I mentioned a statement you correctly ascribed to Masson in which he cited an assertion of Freud's which purportedly contradicted Webster's position, and noted that the Freud claim in question had been criticised on grounds for which I provided two scholarly references.
I have no wish to engage in further discussion of the actual content of these paragraphs, as I know that exchanges would go on interminably, and I've said all I have to say about this.
I shall certainly re-examine the way I presented Webster's views to ensure they conform to Wikipedia regulations. Esterson ( talk) 23:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Personally I can't see how referring to the actual work of which the author's views are being presented indicates that what follows is an interpretation. But that is easily remedied. (As I've said, I intend looking carefully at my wording again.) Unfortunately you immediately deleted my posting so discussion of such details was not possible. Esterson ( talk) 00:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I have decided to post a modified version of the paragraphs deleted by Skoojal. As I already stated, I have been amending them, partly to allow for Skoojal's criticisms of my wording, but without eliminating the substantive material contained in the original posting. My reasons are:
1. According to DGG on this Talk page, "I think the material can now be restored. There now are 3 people not involved with the article contributing here, all of whom agree on that."
2. The amended paragraphs need to be available to Skoojal for him to provide his new criticisms.
3. As we've seen, any further exchanges of the basis of the new criticisms Skoojal has said he is going to provide are likely to go on and on almost indefinitely.
I am notifying Skoojal that I have posted amended paragraphs on which he can provide his new criticisms. Esterson ( talk) 11:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I cannot see how quoting the relevant published work of a significant scholar or summarizing it in a fair manner can possibly be a BLP violation. Academics criticise each other, and to say that one has published something that is wrong is normal discourse and the basis of the academic process. If its been said in such a manner, it's our obligation to include it in a proportionate way. Many people have criticized Masson, and many supported him. An editor who inserts the views in an appropriate manner that does not overbalance the article is not violating BLP. . I think the material can now be restored. There now are 3 people not involved with the article contributing here, all of whom agree on that. DGG ( talk) 19:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes: "You are all seriously mistaken. Esterson did not quote the relevant published work of a significant scholar or summarize it in anything remotely like a fair manner. He offered a personal opinion or interpretation of Webster's work. He used the article to try to debunk Masson." (And he rightly adds that "the immediate question here is whether Esterson was being fair in the way he explained Masson and Webster's views...")
I quoted – or paraphrased – the (very) relevant writings of Richard Webster. (Perhaps Skoojal does not think that Webster's book is "the relevant published work of a significant scholar", but judging by the reviews of Why Freud Was Wrong many people do regard him as such.) Regardless of Skoojal's view of Webster, since he reported Masson's criticisms of Webster, any balancing paragraphs could not but provide what Webster actually wrote in his book. I did not offer a personal opinion or interpretation; I accurately presented Webster's views, as could be found on the pages I cited in Why Freud Was Wrong.
There's a certain irony in Skoojal's saying that I didn't summarize what Webster wrote in anything remotely like a fair manner, when I was careful to consult his book to ensure I adhered to what he wrote, and thereby provided implicit indications that Skoojal's (accurate) reporting of Masson's criticisms of Webster showed that it was Masson who did not summarize Webster's views in a fair manner.
The fact that Skoojal has described my scholarly articles on this subject published in prestigious journals (History of Psychiatry, History of Psychology and History of the Human Sciences) as "debunking" Masson indicates that on this matter Skoojal is unwilling to distinguish criticisms based on a close reading of the historical documents from "debunking". Esterson ( talk) 00:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes: "It's no more necessary or desirable to add an explanation of Webster's views to the article on Masson than it is to do the reverse."
I did not add "an explanation of Webster's views" per se. You described Masson's 1998 criticisms of Webster's supposed views and arguments. I balanced this by describing the actual views and arguments given by Webster in Why Freud Was Wrong that were inaccurately presented in your paragraphs. Esterson ( talk) 09:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson, I have started a discussion at ANI that involves you. I am required to inform you of this. Skoojal ( talk) 10:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Good job! Thanks for getting the facts straight in the article [7], [8]. ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 21:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Just remember, "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." =-] -- J. D. Redding 02:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Just letting you know that I provided more explanation about what I was trying to say about Paul McHugh on the Freud talk page. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sigmund_Freud#Psychiatrist.3F. I gather that you and I share some appreciation for a) Freud's huge impact on psychiatry and the importance and validity of many of his discoveries and b) the validity of the criticism of the metholodological failings of the analysts, and the troubled state of psychoanalytic practice. If that's a mistaken impression, then forgive me. If it's correct, perhaps you and I can put our heads together on some improvements to the Freud page. Hypoplectrus ( talk) 18:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about the delay in responding to your post on my talk page. I am very busy in my "real life" right now.
It appears that your concerns are valid based on a quick overview of the Freud talk page. Unfortunately, I know nothing about Freud other than he is a highly notable psychoanalyst, and the father of psychoanlysis which has branched off into other forms of theraputic disciplines. And just as unfortunate, I don't have the time right now to catch up (read one or two books, etc.). If this were Einstein's page I could help out. So, good luck and it seems that you have some support from other level headed editors. Hopefully, it is enough support to keep the article accurate. However, if not let me know and I will see if I can find the time to get involved. You can email me if you want. Regards ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 04:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
You seem to me like the perfect editor to bring some balance to Mileva_Marić#Role in physics. It should cite some things she had a role in, and not be all about what her role was not. I feel like posting an {{ NPOV}} in the article stating as much until it's balanced. Personally, I have faith that any close associate as intelligent these people are is an influence, esp. a wife.
And I question the tone of that section. It's to much like the evidentialism and evidence of absence that perpetuates environmental degradation. I also question the WP:COI concept, for it says an expert can't say anything on Wikipedia. How self-defeating that seems to me, and all because of a tempting tendency to wield combative bias, learned through mastering the defense moves, deceptive techniques garnered through battles with critics or taking questions at lectures. I have an essay on WP:COI, a sort of rant. So please try to stay neutral at all costs if you make contributions that balance the section, and don't get yourself into any edit wars, over any additions or deletions, or the WP:ANI will call foul on you. Sincerely, I would grimace to see that happen, esp. where the article looks so sadly empty and needy.
Now, I greatly improved the clarity and presentation of the wording on that section, but never did I have any opinion on the material, none whatsoever. So I will of course restore the improvement work I did, and it will stay in place until civil discussion takes it down, even if a part at a time. — Cpiral Cpiral 04:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Cprial (apologies for spelling it wrong): You write:
"Your specification of sentences in question are clearly excellent discussion style. Yet ironically, I don't see them on the talk page there, and have asked you to itemize them there."
On the Talk page I specified two examples of unclear phrases. It is not my job to express your sentences in more precise terms as I don't think there was anything wrong with the sentences they replaced.
You write: " "All of your original ammendments"? I made about two edits?"
If you check the Talk page you'll see that I commented on around eight edits in your amended version!
You write: "It should cite some things she had a role in, and not be all about what her role was not."
Your statement here presumes there are things (i.e. scientific contributions) she had a role in. But the issue to start with is whether there are any things she had a role in (scientifically speaking). In any case, the original version did contains claims about her alleged contributions to Einstein's scientific work.
You write: " "It cannot be said": I say it by way of a copyedit, so "I say it" but only restate "what was already said". I did not make an amendment that somehow then prevented "arguments for a contribution from Maric"?"
Quite frankly, I find some of your statements difficult to understand, for instance the last one here. I'll just say here that the whole point of my response on the Maric Talk page is that you should not be making such an extensive "copyedit" without discussion on the Talk page first, especially as it is evident you do not have much knowledge of the subject. You admit as much on the Maric Talk page: "Please know that I don't directly study Ferris' or Einstein's, or Maric's works, and have no strong opinions about any of this."
You wrote above "I greatly improved the clarity and presentation of the wording on that section". With all due respect, the wording of your responses to me do not suggest that you are the appropriate person to improve the clarity of the section.
You write: "It is the bluntness that is inflaming the article. So I changed the section title! And I made the first sentence more specific. See the talk page..."
This change is, I suggest, an indication that you may not be an appropriate person to be making changes to the Maric article. The issue is about alleged contributions by Maric to Einstein's scientific work in general, not specifically to the 1905 special relativity paper. It should be obvious that your new heading does not describe the contents of the section, and is entirely inappropriate. I ask you again to make suggestions for amendments on the Talk page first. Esterson ( talk) 20:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello, Esterson. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people or things you have written about in the article Mileva Maric, be careful. People close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may make them mistakenly add overly-flattering or overly-disparaging content. So please read our plain and simple conflict of interest guide. Here's a partial summary of its advice:
Please read the whole guide. See also our policies Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Autobiography, which everyone must follow.
Thank you.
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talk) 16:20, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello Esterson, and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm sure that your edits to Mileva Marić were well-intentioned. Unfortunately, I do not think that your blog counts as a reliable source, so I have removed much of what you added. Please see the Reliable Sources guideline here [1]. Skoojal ( talk) 04:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Constructive contributions are appreciated and strongly encouraged, but your recent edit to the userpage of another user may be considered vandalism. Specifically, your edit to User talk:Skoojal may be offensive or unwelcome. If you are the user, please log in under that account and proceed to make the changes. Please use the sandbox for any tests you may want to do. Take a look at our introduction page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thank you. De728631 ( talk) 09:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Skoojal
I am bemused by this comment. It's a long time since I edited the Freud page so I don't know what you mean by "the Crews matter" (and at that time I had not discovered the talk pages). I am not the least interested in "settling scores", only with providing reliable information as far as it can be ascertained. In both the cases of Freud and Mileva Maric received historical accounts and frequently recycled claims do not necessarily reflect the true facts based on close scrutiny of the historical documents (often far from it). Esterson ( talk) 11:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Will Beeback: You wrote: "Have you two editors met in another forum? If so, please remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground."
Having followed up the links that you posted on 5 September, I am now in a position to understand that remark (and I can fully understand why you would be concerned). As you are presumably aware I didn't contribute to the Crews issue on Wikipedia (not that I can recall, anyway), but Skoojal chose to cite my name in connection with it: "When I debated this with Allen Esterson..."
Having now read Skoojal's comments on the Crews Talk webpage, I must express my concern about the tone of his comments. The fact that he refers to a debate with me identifies him as Richard R. Warnotck, with whom I had exchanges on this issue on the Butterflies and Wheels "letters" page. My concern is particularly with this sentence: "I thought this was willful obscurantism on Esterson's part, motivated by the desperate desire to hide a truth that it would be disastrous for Crews's (and Esterson's) credibility to admit." I agree that Wikipedia is not a battleground, but I really must express my dismay that Skoojal should make a derogatory statement about my motivations, especially as it is on the basis of his own misreading of Crews. Please bear with me while I give the quote in full that Skoojal claims demonstrates Crews' "homophobia" (and my bad faith):
"Critics have pointed out that the third edition of the DSM (1980), like its predecessors, reflects political as well as medical and scientific opinion. When smoking replaces homosexuality as a mental aberration, more of the credit must go to caucuses than to new findings. For that very reason, however, we can safely regard the DSM's demotion of 'neurosis' as a sign of waning psychoanalytic influence." (Analysis Terminable and Interminable, 1986, p. 36, n1.)
Crews' comments are a criticism of a characteristic of the DSM, that on occasion it follows societal fashion, e.g., previously smoking was not an aberration and homosexuality was, but with changes in attitudes, now smoking is an aberration and homosexuality is not. This says absolutely nothing about Crews' view of homosexuality (and certainly not, as Skoojal claims, that Crews "was objecting to the replacement of homosexuality by smoking as a mental illness"). (Elsewhere Crews makes plain his view when he writes that among serious adverse influences of psychoanalytic orthodoxy: "Thanks to the once imposing prestige of psychoanalysis... gays have been told that their sexual preference is a mental disorder [and] women have accepted a view of themselves as inherently envious, passive and amoral." ["The Memory Wars, 1995, p. 71])
Incidentally, it speaks volumes that out of the many reams that Crews has written on Freud and psychoanalysis, Skoojal should single out this one sentence (which he misreads as denigrating homosexuality) as "among the most relevant" in Crews's books, "since they concern his reasons for attacking psychoanalysis..." (as if he hadn't written many hundreds of sentences doing that).
Will Beeback: Please excuse the length of the above, and note that I intend saying no more on this (and shall not respond to any reply by Skoojal). I just wanted you to be clear that it was not I who introduced the element of a "battleground", it was Skoojal with what I regard as offensive, and totally unjustified, aspersions on my motivations. I leave you to judge my motivations from my argument above. Esterson ( talk) 09:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand this point. In his last major work, An Outline of Psychoanalysis, Freud wrote in relation to the process of development during the postulated three phases of infancy: "Inhibitions in its development manifest themselves as the many sorts of disturbance in sexual life. When this is so, we find fixations of the libido to conditions in earlier phases, whose urge, which is independent of the normal sexual aim, is described as perversion. One such developmental inhibition, for instance, is homosexuality when it is manifest." (Freud 1940 (1938), Standard Edition vol. 23, p. 155.) Esterson ( talk) 08:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Articles published in peer review journals are among the best sources available. The fact that an article is also posted on its author's website is irrelevant, but the citation should be to the journal and not to the website (though you can add a link to the website for the convenience of readers). Also, if you're going to be editing here much you might want to learn a bit more about wiki markup (which is different from HTML). See Wikipedia:Cheatsheet. Also, the citation and footnoting techniques are unusual here. See WP:CITE. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson: I think your additions to the article on Jeffrey Masson need to be, at the very least, reworded. I am resisting the temptation to simply remove them, but I think that they have been added to the 'Life and Work' section in a way that does not read smoothly. To include the sentence that starts, 'However a number of Freud scholars and other academics have argued that...' immediately after the part about Masson's response to Webster seems to suggest that it is because of any failings that particular edition of The Assault on Truth may suffer from that Masson may have failed to understand the true nature of the seduction theory, and I presume that this is not your point. Skoojal ( talk) 22:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll be a little more clear about where the problem lies: Including the sentence starting 'However a number of Freud scholars and other academics have...' immediately following Masson's response to Webster makes it sound as though it is the failure of Masson's reponse to Webster that is responsible for his not understanding the true nature of the seduction theory. That is an unfortunate thing to imply. I will remove this unless it can be worded in a way that isn't misleading. Skoojal ( talk) 23:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal: I shall reply first to your second paragraph, as it relates to what I already posted above. In the paragraph in question on the Jeffrey Masson page, you posted as follows:
"Masson criticised Webster for blaming him for the interest in recovered memory and for unjustifiably concluding that Freud's early patients had not been sexually abused." [Citation, 1998 edition of Masson's The Assault on Truth]
On this you now say: "I'm not saying that I read the passage that way, only that someone could read it that way." But the sentence says "Masson criticised Webster for…" – nothing there about "could be read" that way. In any case, to provide an unreferenced reading on the grounds that a passage "could" be read that way is so open-ended that it leaves it open for an editor to make a statement of virtually any idiosyncratic reading on the grounds that it could be read that way. Again, if you're saying that you didn't read it that way, how strange to write it in that manner: why didn't you write the sentence in question in terms that you did read? And how interesting that you should seemingly distance yourself from the import of the sentence now that I have pointed out that the Masson assertion about Webster that you specifically mentioned is erroneous.
You write: "Things have to made perfectly clear; they cannot be worded in a way that is easily subject to misinterpretation... That would be a good enough reason to remove your addition, although I would prefer to wait and let you rewrite it rather than remove it immediately." What this means in practice is that any time you choose to interpret something in a way that enables you find something to criticise, it gives you grounds for deleting the posted passage. That gives you virtual carte blanche to remove almost anything you take issue with.
You write: "You seem to accept that that section needs some rewording anyway…"
The last sentence of the paragraph you posted as it stands is correct: Masson did criticise Webster for supposedly "unjustifiably concluding that Freud's early patients had not been sexually abused." The fault lies not with this sentence itself, but with the fact that, contrary to what Masson claims, Webster nowhere concluded this in his book Why Freud Was Wrong. Esterson ( talk) 17:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Now to the second paragraph you wrote above (23.01, 19 September): "Regarding the first point of your response, ('My posting therefore applies to the Postscript as a whole, not merely to Masson's response to Webster'), all I can say is that this is not automatically clear from the article on Masson. It could be interpreted (and many readers may interpret it) as applying only or primarily to Webster (please allow for the fact that not all readers of Wikipedia are likely to interpret things in the same way you would; anything that can be misunderstood will be by someone)."
There is a paragraph on the Jeffrey Masson page. The paragraph I posted clearly alludes to that paragraph as a whole. This is evident from the fact that Webster is not mentioned in the paragraph I posted. What is happening here is that you are choosing to interpret something in such a way that you purportedly find "good enough reason to remove [my] addition." As I already noted, you are thereby giving yourself carte blanche to remove anything you take issue with, simply by choosing to interpret in such a way as to give yourself justification for removing another editor's posting. Esterson ( talk) 17:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Now I have re-examined the whole of Masson's 1998 Postscript, and realised that the paragraph you posted contains an inaccuracy I had not previously recognised, I may reword the current paragraph that I posted to spell out more comprehensively an alternative position to Masson 1998 (as taken by the ten Freud scholars and academics I referenced on one issue or another in my posted paragraph). Esterson ( talk) 18:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson: this is to let you know that I have started an article about you. I am informing you as a courtesy. Skoojal ( talk) 06:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes of my published work that he can show "show how it has been used by Frederick Crews, Richard Webster, or Malcolm Macmillan", thereby demonstrating both his limited knowledge and the inappropriateness of there being an Allen Esterson Wikipedia.
Macmillan's magnum opus Freud Evaluated was published in 1991, before I had published anything, and thus does not cite my name. My name is cited in a short section of a lengthy Afterword (40 pages) to the 1997 edition. In that short section alone Macmillan mentions, among several other authors, David Livingstone Smith, Morton Schatzman, Han Israëls, Max Scharnberg, Frank Cioffi, Mikkel Borch-Jacobsen, Clark Glymour and Edward Shorter. All of these are psychologists or philosophers, mostly with prestigious academic positions, who have each published far more books and journal articles than I, but do not have a Wikipedia page.
Richard Webster's book contains a brief mention of my work among scores of other authors. Webster's book would not have been different in any significant respect had my book not been published two years earlier.
When Skoojal has proposed Wikipedia pages on, e.g., Frank Cioffi and Clark Glymour (both of whose contributions to Freud studies are but one part of a much wider publication history), and others among the many scores of academics in this field alone with far greater credentials worthy of a Wikipedia page, I'll take seriously his starting an Allen Esterson page.
I shall now take steps to have the page removed. Esterson ( talk) 16:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
DGG: Thanks for dropping by. I accept your point, but the fact remains that I have never had an academic position, have very few publications to my name, and have virtually no public profile (nor eminence) such as would warrant a Wikipedia page. Esterson ( talk) 11:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson, I have reverted your edits to Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, on the grounds that they are a probable violation of Wikipedia's Biography of Living Persons policy. I think you should seriously consider whether it is appropriate for you to continue editing this article, as you appear to have a conflict of interest. Skoojal ( talk) 00:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
<--Outdenting
You say that every word is a BLP violation. Where is the BLP violation in this sentence? You seem to be saying that the inclusion of criticism of the subject's academic research is a BLP violation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
A response to Skoojal's postings above:
Skoojal writes: "Esterson is one of a group of scholars who for years have been trying to debunk Masson's views about Freud and the seduction theory. They've taken quite an aggressive stance against Masson, and Esterson is carrying this over into the article."
The paragraphs I wrote were to balance Skoojal's posting that gave Masson's arguments against Webster on the seduction theory episode. They comprised of statements of what Webster actually wrote (as against what Masson said he wrote).
What Skoojal refers to as "debunking" on my part are scholarly articles in prestigious history of psychology journals: History of Psychology, History of Psychiatry, History of the Human Sciences.
Just taking the articles I cited in my references in the paragraphs Skoojal has deleted, here are the publications from which they were taken:
History of Psychiatry; Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association; Psychoanalytic Review; History of the Human Sciences; Review of General Psychology; Journal of Psychoanalytic Anthropology; Journal of Modern History; Journal of the History of Ideas.
The books cited were published by: International Universities Press; Routledge.
Skoojal writes of the authors in question: "They've taken quite an aggressive stance against Masson..."
If anyone would care to examine the articles in question (the citations for which can be found in the deleted paragraphs in the "history" page of Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson) they will find they are soberly worded scholarly criticisms of Masson's account of the seduction theory episode on the basis of an examination of the original documentary evidence.
In response to the question "Do you have a source for your characterization of this group of scholars?", Skoojal writes: "All I'll say for the moment is that this is my impression of them, having read some of what they've written."
Perhaps Skoojal will tell us which of the articles and relevant book chapters he has read by the following authors I cited:
Israëls, H. and Schatzman, M.; McCullough, M.L.; Paul, R. A.; Salyard, A.; Schimek, J. G.; Toews, J.E.; Triplett, H.; Eissler, K.; Smith, D. L.
Skoojal writes: "The titles of some of their articles alone would support this. 'Jeffrey Masson's Assault on Truth' is part of one of them. That's what I'd call aggressive."
The subtitle in question is an allusion to Masson's book The Assault on Truth. Perhaps Skoojal would like to tell just one other title of articles I have cited that is "aggressive" (only three titles out of around eight even mention Masson, as they are about the Freud's seduction theory generally). Esterson ( talk) 07:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes: "It's a BLP violation simply in that it takes sides in a controversy."
Skoojal posted three paragraphs on the Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson page about Masson's Postscript to his 1998 edition of The Assault on Truth, two of which give Masson's criticisms of Richard Webster's view of the seduction theory episode in Why Freud is Wrong. Why, on Skoojal's reckoning, does this not amount to taking sides in favour of Masson against Webster?
Being perfectly familiar with this material (at the time I posted comments on this very Postscript on the Human-nature.com "Freud's Seduction Theory" website), I recognised immediately that most of what is (correctly) stated as how Masson described Webster's views were erroneous descriptions, as can be seen from the relevant passages in Why Freud Was Wrong. To provide balance to the paragraphs in question, I took each of Masson's points as described and provided Webster's actual views, with citations from Webster's book supported by citations of scholarly articles by other authors.
I tried to be careful to present the items as Webster's views. I am perfectly happy to reconsider some rewording of the paragraphs I posted (in fact I have made a couple of amendments already) if I was not completely successful in this, or to consider other comments about these paragraphs. However, Skoojal's immediate reverting of my paragraphs precluded this. Esterson ( talk) 16:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal: You wrote: "You offered an opinionated interpetation of both men's work that is not appropriate to a BLP."
I have looked again at the paragraphs I posted, and can find nowhere where I offered an interpretation of either of the two authors. As I explained above, I took each item on which you provided Masson's criticism of what he said were Webster's views, and simply provided Webster's actual view as he stated it in Why Freud Was Wrong (references given, plus supporting references from scholarly sources). In one instance I mentioned a statement you correctly ascribed to Masson in which he cited an assertion of Freud's which purportedly contradicted Webster's position, and noted that the Freud claim in question had been criticised on grounds for which I provided two scholarly references.
I have no wish to engage in further discussion of the actual content of these paragraphs, as I know that exchanges would go on interminably, and I've said all I have to say about this.
I shall certainly re-examine the way I presented Webster's views to ensure they conform to Wikipedia regulations. Esterson ( talk) 23:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Personally I can't see how referring to the actual work of which the author's views are being presented indicates that what follows is an interpretation. But that is easily remedied. (As I've said, I intend looking carefully at my wording again.) Unfortunately you immediately deleted my posting so discussion of such details was not possible. Esterson ( talk) 00:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I have decided to post a modified version of the paragraphs deleted by Skoojal. As I already stated, I have been amending them, partly to allow for Skoojal's criticisms of my wording, but without eliminating the substantive material contained in the original posting. My reasons are:
1. According to DGG on this Talk page, "I think the material can now be restored. There now are 3 people not involved with the article contributing here, all of whom agree on that."
2. The amended paragraphs need to be available to Skoojal for him to provide his new criticisms.
3. As we've seen, any further exchanges of the basis of the new criticisms Skoojal has said he is going to provide are likely to go on and on almost indefinitely.
I am notifying Skoojal that I have posted amended paragraphs on which he can provide his new criticisms. Esterson ( talk) 11:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I cannot see how quoting the relevant published work of a significant scholar or summarizing it in a fair manner can possibly be a BLP violation. Academics criticise each other, and to say that one has published something that is wrong is normal discourse and the basis of the academic process. If its been said in such a manner, it's our obligation to include it in a proportionate way. Many people have criticized Masson, and many supported him. An editor who inserts the views in an appropriate manner that does not overbalance the article is not violating BLP. . I think the material can now be restored. There now are 3 people not involved with the article contributing here, all of whom agree on that. DGG ( talk) 19:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes: "You are all seriously mistaken. Esterson did not quote the relevant published work of a significant scholar or summarize it in anything remotely like a fair manner. He offered a personal opinion or interpretation of Webster's work. He used the article to try to debunk Masson." (And he rightly adds that "the immediate question here is whether Esterson was being fair in the way he explained Masson and Webster's views...")
I quoted – or paraphrased – the (very) relevant writings of Richard Webster. (Perhaps Skoojal does not think that Webster's book is "the relevant published work of a significant scholar", but judging by the reviews of Why Freud Was Wrong many people do regard him as such.) Regardless of Skoojal's view of Webster, since he reported Masson's criticisms of Webster, any balancing paragraphs could not but provide what Webster actually wrote in his book. I did not offer a personal opinion or interpretation; I accurately presented Webster's views, as could be found on the pages I cited in Why Freud Was Wrong.
There's a certain irony in Skoojal's saying that I didn't summarize what Webster wrote in anything remotely like a fair manner, when I was careful to consult his book to ensure I adhered to what he wrote, and thereby provided implicit indications that Skoojal's (accurate) reporting of Masson's criticisms of Webster showed that it was Masson who did not summarize Webster's views in a fair manner.
The fact that Skoojal has described my scholarly articles on this subject published in prestigious journals (History of Psychiatry, History of Psychology and History of the Human Sciences) as "debunking" Masson indicates that on this matter Skoojal is unwilling to distinguish criticisms based on a close reading of the historical documents from "debunking". Esterson ( talk) 00:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal writes: "It's no more necessary or desirable to add an explanation of Webster's views to the article on Masson than it is to do the reverse."
I did not add "an explanation of Webster's views" per se. You described Masson's 1998 criticisms of Webster's supposed views and arguments. I balanced this by describing the actual views and arguments given by Webster in Why Freud Was Wrong that were inaccurately presented in your paragraphs. Esterson ( talk) 09:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Esterson, I have started a discussion at ANI that involves you. I am required to inform you of this. Skoojal ( talk) 10:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Good job! Thanks for getting the facts straight in the article [7], [8]. ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 21:42, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Just remember, "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." =-] -- J. D. Redding 02:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Just letting you know that I provided more explanation about what I was trying to say about Paul McHugh on the Freud talk page. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sigmund_Freud#Psychiatrist.3F. I gather that you and I share some appreciation for a) Freud's huge impact on psychiatry and the importance and validity of many of his discoveries and b) the validity of the criticism of the metholodological failings of the analysts, and the troubled state of psychoanalytic practice. If that's a mistaken impression, then forgive me. If it's correct, perhaps you and I can put our heads together on some improvements to the Freud page. Hypoplectrus ( talk) 18:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about the delay in responding to your post on my talk page. I am very busy in my "real life" right now.
It appears that your concerns are valid based on a quick overview of the Freud talk page. Unfortunately, I know nothing about Freud other than he is a highly notable psychoanalyst, and the father of psychoanlysis which has branched off into other forms of theraputic disciplines. And just as unfortunate, I don't have the time right now to catch up (read one or two books, etc.). If this were Einstein's page I could help out. So, good luck and it seems that you have some support from other level headed editors. Hopefully, it is enough support to keep the article accurate. However, if not let me know and I will see if I can find the time to get involved. You can email me if you want. Regards ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 04:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
You seem to me like the perfect editor to bring some balance to Mileva_Marić#Role in physics. It should cite some things she had a role in, and not be all about what her role was not. I feel like posting an {{ NPOV}} in the article stating as much until it's balanced. Personally, I have faith that any close associate as intelligent these people are is an influence, esp. a wife.
And I question the tone of that section. It's to much like the evidentialism and evidence of absence that perpetuates environmental degradation. I also question the WP:COI concept, for it says an expert can't say anything on Wikipedia. How self-defeating that seems to me, and all because of a tempting tendency to wield combative bias, learned through mastering the defense moves, deceptive techniques garnered through battles with critics or taking questions at lectures. I have an essay on WP:COI, a sort of rant. So please try to stay neutral at all costs if you make contributions that balance the section, and don't get yourself into any edit wars, over any additions or deletions, or the WP:ANI will call foul on you. Sincerely, I would grimace to see that happen, esp. where the article looks so sadly empty and needy.
Now, I greatly improved the clarity and presentation of the wording on that section, but never did I have any opinion on the material, none whatsoever. So I will of course restore the improvement work I did, and it will stay in place until civil discussion takes it down, even if a part at a time. — Cpiral Cpiral 04:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Cprial (apologies for spelling it wrong): You write:
"Your specification of sentences in question are clearly excellent discussion style. Yet ironically, I don't see them on the talk page there, and have asked you to itemize them there."
On the Talk page I specified two examples of unclear phrases. It is not my job to express your sentences in more precise terms as I don't think there was anything wrong with the sentences they replaced.
You write: " "All of your original ammendments"? I made about two edits?"
If you check the Talk page you'll see that I commented on around eight edits in your amended version!
You write: "It should cite some things she had a role in, and not be all about what her role was not."
Your statement here presumes there are things (i.e. scientific contributions) she had a role in. But the issue to start with is whether there are any things she had a role in (scientifically speaking). In any case, the original version did contains claims about her alleged contributions to Einstein's scientific work.
You write: " "It cannot be said": I say it by way of a copyedit, so "I say it" but only restate "what was already said". I did not make an amendment that somehow then prevented "arguments for a contribution from Maric"?"
Quite frankly, I find some of your statements difficult to understand, for instance the last one here. I'll just say here that the whole point of my response on the Maric Talk page is that you should not be making such an extensive "copyedit" without discussion on the Talk page first, especially as it is evident you do not have much knowledge of the subject. You admit as much on the Maric Talk page: "Please know that I don't directly study Ferris' or Einstein's, or Maric's works, and have no strong opinions about any of this."
You wrote above "I greatly improved the clarity and presentation of the wording on that section". With all due respect, the wording of your responses to me do not suggest that you are the appropriate person to improve the clarity of the section.
You write: "It is the bluntness that is inflaming the article. So I changed the section title! And I made the first sentence more specific. See the talk page..."
This change is, I suggest, an indication that you may not be an appropriate person to be making changes to the Maric article. The issue is about alleged contributions by Maric to Einstein's scientific work in general, not specifically to the 1905 special relativity paper. It should be obvious that your new heading does not describe the contents of the section, and is entirely inappropriate. I ask you again to make suggestions for amendments on the Talk page first. Esterson ( talk) 20:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello, Esterson. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people or things you have written about in the article Mileva Maric, be careful. People close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may make them mistakenly add overly-flattering or overly-disparaging content. So please read our plain and simple conflict of interest guide. Here's a partial summary of its advice:
Please read the whole guide. See also our policies Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Autobiography, which everyone must follow.
Thank you.
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